Executioner Sword

[Perl]

How about this one ?
107 cm , 2.2 kg :)

[corrado26]

I assume this is a contemporary original. The completely nonsensical saying, dated 1633 and intended to give the tool a meaning, alone speaks for the time of its creation.

[Perl]

Yes, that is my conclusion too, as well as details etc., in addition, the Latin is misspelled which is said to be common at the time, it is probably German made.

[corrado26]

The blacksmith was certainly not a trained expert on the Latin language and its orthography

[Victrix]

In those days full literacy was probably constrained to the priesthood and legal counsels. The inscriptions are meant to say “Glory to God in the highest” and “St Mary patron of Thorens church.” My first guess was that it’s an execution sword of one of the catholic church city states where the head of state had to dispense punishments to maintain law and order. But there is in fact a castle Thorens in France where this sword may have been used. Struggled a bit with the word “Thorensis” which I take to mean “of Thorens.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Thorens

[Perl]

Very interesting, trying to figure out where this sword was used - this is what the coat of arms on the sword looks like, maybe someone has an idea!

[Akanthus]

Perhaps the polish city of Korun is ment.The city was called Thorn in the time when the area was German.

[corrado26]

30 Stivers / Daalder - Margaret IV van Brederode

I think this is the solution:

Netherland talerAbbey of Thorn

Abbess Margaret of Brederode (Margaretha van Brederode) (1557-1577)


Year 1563
Obverse
Standing Madonna with baby Jesus and scepter behind coat of arms of Brederode
Script: Latin
Lettering: SANCTA ★ MARIA ★ THORENSIS ★ ECCLESIÆ ★
Translation: Saint Mary, Church of Thorn

[Akanthus]

But why an abbey should have an executener sword or even an executioner ? These executive tools are mostly refer to the jurisdiction of towns or nobility.In some cases they were property of the executioner himself and his name is to find on the blade.For me this sword is a original one.Many others you find in auctions or even in museums are made in historistic times in the second half of the 19 th.century.

[CSinTX]

Does the blade appear to be broken at some point? It looks to terminate at an odd angle.

[Perl]

I think Thorn ( now in Poland ) and that it was taken from there in 1633+
and Swedish troops bring it here to Sweden , also sword is not broken

[Perl]

:)Perhaps the polish city of Korun is meant. The city was called Thorn in the time when the area was German.

[Victrix]

30 Stivers / Daalder - Margaret IV van Brederode

I think this is the solution:

Netherland talerAbbey of Thorn

Abbess Margaret of Brederode (Margaretha van Brederode) (1557-1577)


Year 1563
Obverse
Standing Madonna with baby Jesus and scepter behind coat of arms of Brederode
Script: Latin
Lettering: SANCTA ★ MARIA ★ THORENSIS ★ ECCLESIÆ ★
Translation: Saint Mary, Church of Thorn

From Grokipedia: “This expansion underpinned Thorn's political influence as an Reichsunmittelbarkeit entity, exempt from local feudal overlords and directly accountable to the emperor, allowing the abbess to exercise judicial and economic rights over approximately 35 km² of territory divided into administrative quarters.” The heads of state of these territories still needed to maintain law and order even if they were theocracies. The crown and spire signify Mary as the Queen of Heaven.

[Akanthus]

That's it.....sunk.....:) :) :)

[Perl]

Yes, either that or Polish Thorn - I'll see if I can find out more about the coat of arms, it's very unclear.

[Victrix]

The Swedes were notorious plunderers in the 30 year war. Vast fortunes were made from war booty. I’m sure they were in both Thorns. They seem to have occupied the Polish one in mid 1600s but its coat of arms is an angel apparently. The inscription seems rather like the Nertherland coin. One other clue is I have seen those crosses on a Hospitaller sword (Order of St John) so if either Thorn was a place for Hospitallers then that could be it.

[Oriental Armament Collection]

A sword specifically designed for beheading often doesn't have a tip, which is normal because it doesn't need a stabbing function. Its heavy weight makes it more effective for chopping. As for the era, I don't think it's a modern piece. I recently also purchased a Chinese beheading sword, which has a broad blade suitable for chopping.

[Akanthus]

The Seal of Thorn ( Poland / Germany / Prussia ) also shows Holy Mother Mary.For me the sword refers to this city.The tip of executioner swords mostly is cut off. This should clarify,that it was a dishonorable weapon.Dishonorable,because the profession of a executer was looked upon as not honest.In some cases you can find three holes to the end of the blade representing father, son and the holy ghost.( picture from google)

[corrado26]

The coat of arms on the blade is almost identical to the coat of arms on the Dutch coin. It is clearly and undoubtedly different from the depiction of the coat of arms on the Polish coin. In addition, the exact same saying that can be read on the Dutch coin is engraved on the blade. I don't understand how anyone can think of Poland in this situation.:rolleyes:

[Perl]

It is most likely Thorn in Poland, because there it is documented that the Swedes were and plundered. It is also possible that Wrangel took this to Skokloster Castle as war booty and then that the sword ended up in Uppsala (60 km) from Skokloster. I bought it in Uppsala - but this is speculation, nothing I know - I will clean the sword and see if the coat of arms becomes clearer and give more information about the origin.

[Akanthus]

Victrix wrote that on the seal of Thorn there is an angel but i found one with Holy Mary .But not like the one on the blade.The sword certainly belongs to the city in the netherlands.
With " belongs to this city " i ment Thorn in the Netherlands.:)

[corrado26]

"The collection of weapons that Carl Gustaf Wrangel assembled at Skokloster was already renowned in his day and it still exists, as the only undivided part of his chattels, in the three rooms on the top floor where he arranged it in 1669".
This you can read in the foreword of the catalogue "Wrangels Armoury". In this catalogue page 344 is shown only one single executioner's sword made at Passau. So the sword in question here had certainly nothing to do with Carl G. Wrangel and his armoury collection in Skokloster.:D

[Victrix]

I’ve been to Skokloster on a guided tour twice. Amazing place. I think I even have a pic of the execution sword there. Von Wrangel was the commander but I’m sure he had a large group from the war with him. One of them could have brought the sword with him as war booty. Or von Wrangel might have gifted the sword when he was still alive. The univetsity town of Uppsala has lots of war booty from the 30 year war taken as war booty from Prague.

[Perl]

The Holy Mary image with child and halo above the coat of arms is no problem to see - but the coat of arms below is more difficult - maybe it will look better after cleaning? - about the shoe monastery, a lot has disappeared from there over the centuries, but if this sword was ever made before it will be difficult to know without old inventory lists, but they may also be incomplete - I will dig further into this matter, it is very interesting, we know so far the origin is probably Thorn in the Netherlands or Poland, will return next week with a better picture of the coat of arms and thank everyone who has helped with this so far!!!

[Perl]

The picture above shows 2 executioner's swords in the monastery of Skokloster, I know at least one more than the one the executioner in Helsingör had, it is also in the monastery of Skokloster, so at least 3, and probably more in the past.

Not Helsinki - Helsingör

[gp]

Very interesting, trying to figure out where this sword was used - this is what the coat of arms on the sword looks like, maybe someone has an idea!
just noticed this thread, as a Dutch numismatic it is very easy to determinate, made after a 30 stuiver / 30penny or 1 thaler, date 1563, coin struck by the abbey of Thorn


front side : standing Madonna with Jesus and sceptre behind the coat of arms of Brederode

Text: SANCTA ★ MARIA ★ THORENSIS ★ ECCLESIÆ ★


backside: Winged Saint Michael holding a shield with an eagle

Text: DENARIVS ★ NOVVS ★ TRIGINTA ★ STVFERORVM

Thorn, Netherlands (1000-1631)

reference:

vdCh 8# 17.9 = Pieter Otto van der Chijs
book "Deel van De Munten der voormalige heeren en steden, van de vroegste tijden tot aan de Pacificatie van Gend"
Part 8 "De Munten der leenen van de voormalige hertogdommen Braband en Limburg, " 1862

and also

Delmonte S# 772 "Le Benelux d'argent" 1967

our friend corrado26 is correct, my compliments Sir ! see also the golden Ducat

FYI: Maria and Jesus are always in the abbey's coins present as you can see form this example being also by Margeretha van Brederode. 1/2 Daalder or 12 Stuivers not dated but approx. 1557-1564
Coat of arms clearly the Brederode

[Victrix]

The picture above shows 2 executioner's swords in the monastery of Skokloster, I know at least one more than the one the executioner in Helsinki had, it is also in the monastery of Skokloster, so at least 3, and probably more in the past.

Just a minor correction. Skokloster is in fact the Baroque castle built by von Wrangel. The location name may refer to a monastery which existed there before. During the reformation many monasteries were seized by the crown and demolished. Often the materials were recycled into castles.

[Victrix]

just noticed this thread, as a Dutch numismatic it is very easy to determinate, made after a 30 stuiver / 30penny or 1 thaler, date 1563, coin struck by the abbey of Thorn


front side : standing Madonna with Jesus and sceptre behind the coat of arms of Brederode

Text: SANCTA ★ MARIA ★ THORENSIS ★ ECCLESIÆ ★


backside: Winged Saint Michael holding a shield with an eagle

Text: DENARIVS ★ NOVVS ★ TRIGINTA ★ STVFERORVM

Thorn, Netherlands (1000-1631)

reference:

vdCh 8# 17.9 = Pieter Otto van der Chijs
book "Deel van De Munten der voormalige heeren en steden, van de vroegste tijden tot aan de Pacificatie van Gend"
Part 8 "De Munten der leenen van de voormalige hertogdommen Braband en Limburg, " 1862

and also

Delmonte S# 772 "Le Benelux d'argent" 1967

our friend corrado26 is correct, my compliments Sir ! see also the golden Ducat

FYI: Maria and Jesus are always in the abbey's coins present as you can see form this example being also by Margeretha van Brederode. 1/2 Daalder or 12 Stuivers not dated but approx. 1557-1564
Coat of arms clearly the Brederode

Looks like the lion of Brabant?

[gp]

Looks like the lion of Brabant?

it does but the coat of arms of the Brederodes is a little more complicated (and changed through the times a bit):

https://1456.anticipate.nl/desktop/en/wapenbord/n14-reinoud-ii-van-brederode-heer-van-brederode-en-vianen-2/

yet the history of the abbey as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_Abbey

the lion was used by the Counts of Holland but they later took the red lion of Valkenburg (a town in the South of the Netherlands , close to Thorn as well)

unfortunately the explanation is in Dutch only ( but you can use google translate as the text is not that complicated, so not much room for error ☺)
https://burgundiannobility.wordpress.com/tag/heer-van-brederode/

so back on topic of the sword, it is indeed the coat of arms of Thorn Abbey at the time of Margareth of Brederode: four lions in red .
Nice detail: she / or actually the Imperial Abbey of Thorn was taken to court of the Holy Roman Empire in Spier as both silver and gold coins of the abbey lacked the minimum criteria (amount of silver and gold) set by the empire...and in 1561 emperor Ferdinand forbid to struck these silver and gold coins in and for the Thorn Abbey
https://wiki.muntenenpapiergeld.nl/index.php?title=Thorn

[Perl]

Hi,

I'll clean it up and take a better picture of the coat of arms that I'll post here next week - maybe it'll clear up the whole mystery!

[Perl]

Here are better picture of the pic on blade

it looks like 4 lions in 4 different fields or possibly 3 lions and a praying figure - the Maria image at the top is exactly the same as on the coins from Thorn Netherlands - so I think we can now say for sure that this sword comes from Thorn Abbey Netherlands - big thanks to everyone who helped with this detective work!!