Fighting with keris [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Kiai Carita

6th September 2006, 06:42 PM

Very interesting question Bram, and one i am sure will raise some serious debate. :) I am not with my books right now, but i believe Stone makes reference to learning keris fighting moves from a prince of Jawa. Though some of his keris info is suspect, this reference actually names the prince and i can't see why he would make it up. Early Chinese contact brought back reports of the Javanese using the keris as a weapon back in the 15th century. People have argued these reports because the Chinese also made derogatory remarks about the Javanese as well. I am not sure that those remarks should necessarily negate the substance of the weapon use reports however. It does seem to me that the keris was at least used as a weapon in Jawa at one time. The exact point at which that changed may be very difficult to track. :)

Thanks for the response, David...

I have argued that the weapons described by Ma Huan, who also described the indegenous people as 'devils', although could be, should not necessarily be keris. Personally I think that keris in Jawa was never intended to be used for fighting. That is why the Jawa keris is only sharpened once and there is no anual sharpening ceremony. Instead of sharpened, the Jawa keris was ritually examined, bathed in flowers and cleaned, and prayed on, and smoked with incense, and always put higher that the feet...

Some other curiouse facts related to this matter: the Malays wear their keris in the front, ready to draw, while in Jawa wearing it this way (sikep, I believe the position is called) indicates the wearer has left the worldly and is in pursuit of the spiritual. In wayang kulit, several gods wear their keris this sikep way under the folds of their Arabic jubah.

If indeed it did happen, does the keris' 'dissarming' seems to have began sometime during the cumbling of Majapahit and the emerging of Mataram. Does anyone think that this might have anything to do with the work of the Wali in spreading Islam in Jawa? I am truly interested in the opinions of the members of this forum.

Hormat,
Bram.

A. G. Maisey

7th September 2006, 01:31 AM

I find this an intensely interesting subject.

In the Nagakertagama (circa 1365) , canto 54, stanza 2, verse 4:-

"Exterminated were the animals,thrusted, lanced, crissed,dying without a gasp."

also:-

"The criss, a token of manfulness has its place at the front"---this was in reference to the progress of the king.

In the Pararaton ( circa 1480-1600) there is a description of an exhibition of keris play as an entertainment.

When Sultan Agung attacked Batavia (1628), his principle weapons were firearms. In fact, although his levies were for the most part pikemen, all his military actions relied heavily on firearms.

By the time of the Kartosuro troubles roughly 100 years later, firearms were common amongst the general populace.

In 1811 Raffles was appointed Governor of Jawa, and I think he took up his post in 1812. In his book "The History of Java" he mentions that the keris in Java at that time occupied the position that the small sword had occupied in Europe 50 years previous.

From the time of Kartosuro, European influence in Jawa, and European manipulation of the Javanese rulers and social system resulted in changes that were reflected in social norms and consciousness. During the Kartosuro period, and continuing through to arguably the Japanese occupation during WWII, Javanese society emphasised some elements of Javanese culture, and de-emphasised other elements, as a compensating measure for loss of power and identity under European domination.

The keris was in early Jawa a weapon, with many of the attributes of culturally significant weapons found in other cultures across the world, for instance, in the Viking sword. With its weapon function reduced by replacement with more effective and efficient weapons, its symbolic and iconic status appears to have increased and this, combined with the social and cultural compensatory trends of the 19th and early 20th centuries , have led to its present cultural position.

It is important that in any commentary on the keris, the conclusions drawn about its nature be placed within a framework related to historical time.

If anybody has any interest in pursuing further reading in this matter, I would be happy to provide a reading list. I have not done so here, because this list would be very lengthy, and I could just be wasting my time in compiling it.

David

7th September 2006, 03:12 AM

Well Alan....not a waste of time from my perspective. :)
I think such a list would be considered very helpful by many. :cool:

A. G. Maisey

7th September 2006, 03:46 AM

OK, I`ll put it together, but it won`t happen overnight. Maybe next week.

Bear in mind:- this will not be a list of books about keris, but rather about history and social comment, along with some Javanese babads. You`d need to plod through the whole lot and then digest it and form some opinions.It will include English language, Indonesian and Javanese sources.

David

7th September 2006, 04:56 AM

Here's the quote from Stone:
"Prince Pakoet Alam at Djockjakarta showed me the old methods of fencing with the kris. He said that if a man had only one kris with him he held the scabbard in his left hand with the straight part extended along his forearm and guarded with it. If he had two krisses, he took his favorite in his right hand and the other in his left to guard with. The left-hand kris was held against his forearm with the edge and point at the top outward.In this position it was not only useful as a guard, but if his opponent tried to catch his arm a slight motion would cut his hand serverely."
This seems too detailed an account too have been a misunderstanding and i don't see what Stone would have to gain from making it up. This information was apparently shared with him in the early 20th century by a member of the royal family who i would think would know something about the cultural uses of the keris in Jawa.
One wonders at what point then, the keris ceased to be seen in a materially martial sense in Jawa. I would also extend this question to Bali. Certainly, from my own observations, the Balinese keris tends to be more of a fighting blade. It is often longer and heavier than it's Javanese brother. Bali also holds claim to the culture of the Mojopahit empire, though one could never say that the culture of, say, 19thC Bali was the same as Mojopahit Jawa, we can at least see it as an evolution of that culture. For instance, it is my understanding that blades were once polished in the Balinese style in Jawa. This tradition continues in Bali, yet it passed out of fashion in later Javanese periods. If the keris was still considered a weapon in 19thC Bali (if???) is it possible that it was also considered so in Mojopahit Jawa? Hard to say.
This passage from Wiener's Visible and Invisible Realms comes from Gusti Ketut Jelantik, Buléléng's chief minister, in response to a proposed Dutch treaty offered up in 1844:
As long as he lived there would be no Dutch sovereignty over his land. Declaring that no mere piece of paper could make anyone master over another he announced dramatically,"Let the keris decide!"
This sounds like an act of war with the keris at it's forefront. I suppose it could have been metaphorical, but it seems not to me.

A. G. Maisey

7th September 2006, 05:41 AM

Jawa and Bali are different fish.

No doubt at all that the keris was serious weapon in Bali right through until the puputans.

No doubt at all that the keris was a serious weapon in early Jawa.

No doubt at all that even in the 1950's the keris was being used as weapon in the Peninsula. I once met a British soldier who had served in Malaya during the troubles there; he had been attacked by a keris wielding Malay and stabbed in the thigh. Left a pretty ugly scar.

As to George Cameron's comments, I believe that he was probably given a bit of demo. Bear in mind that young royals at this time were given a "palace" education. The Prince of the Pakualamanan that he mentions would have been given lessons in how to handle a keris in dances. Possibly what Geo. C. saw was a classical representation of keris usage, not the way in which one was actually used. The prince himself may well have believed that he was demonstrating the real thing. What a person believes is actual for that person.

If you study Javanese ---and Malay for that matter--- ethics and combat tactics, it is perfectly obvious that no self respecting Javanese was ever going to engage in formal frontal fencing displays. The dominant characteristics of Javanese combat are surprise and speed. I have had it said to me, by a man for whom I have very great respect in this area of Javanese edged weapon combat, that if a person was correctly attacked with a keris, he should be dead before he ever realised that he has been attacked.

My personal feeling is---and I emphasise "feeling"--- that there never was a formal system of fence attached to the keris. It was not that sort of weapon, rather it was an extension of self.

However, the argument against this is my reference to keris play exhibition in the Pararaton.

If we are going to put "the keris as a weapon" into a time frame frame, I think we`re probably looking at something like pre-Mataram. The period prior to the outcome of a battle depending on firepower, not personal skill with things that cut.In Jawa, in any case. All my comments are being made in a Javanese context. I knew an Australian Federal Policeman who was attacked by a keris (sorry, I prefer keris, even if it is a big one) wielding Moro in the Southern Phillipines in the 1970's.

Bambang Irian

7th September 2006, 05:49 AM

In Javanesee concept basically keris is not weapons for fighting, but it is a symbol of live.
Each racikan has a symbol of philosopy.

Bambang Irian

A. G. Maisey

7th September 2006, 06:29 AM

Yes, I agree with you Pak Bambang,in Jawa today the keris is not regarded as a weapon, but it is important to realise that this view of the keris is a comparatively recent one, that appears to have developed during possibly only the last 200 years or so, with an increased emphasis during possibly the last 50 years.

If we examine old Javanese literature, and old historical records, we find that the keris was most definitely used as a weapon in times past.

This is the reason that I say that when we consider the keris, we must consider it within a defined period of time.

Pangeran Datu

7th September 2006, 08:14 AM

G'day All,
My belief is that to understand something, one has to try and appreciate its environment.
No doubt, in my mind, that the keris was originally designed as a weapon. However, through the belief systems of the time, it developed into a status/ rank/wealth symbol as well as that of mystical power complete with 'pakem' (protocol) etc. Consequently, it became the weapon of last resort, as any respectable male would always have one on him (now merely carried and revered as a symbol/talisman; normally alongside a weapon, such as a wedung). This gave rise to the term 'ngamuk/amuk/amok'; the person not having a 'weapon' to use, is forced to use his keris, as a last resort. However, traditional belief is that a keris, once unsheathed, may not return to its sheath without tasting blood. Thus the person is committed to draw blood. Should he fail, then the keris will turn on him. So 'ngamuk' became synonymous with 'babi-buta' and 'nekad'; loosely tranlates to suicidal blind fury.
As for the martial arts.... penca-silat adopts whatever is at hand to use as a weapon. That is why there is no 'standard' weapon(s) of penca-silat. In the case of the Javanese prince; case in point, he only demonstrated with what he had handy at the time ... a keris ( the same moves would have been just as applicable to the bedog/golok (machete)... much favoured by the West Java penca-silat artists, as that was the most common implement worn on a daily basis).
WRT the Balinese keris... a lot of Javanese fled to Bali under the onslaught of Islamisation, so they could retain their Hindu systems. I think that it was around this period that the Balinese keris developed its own identity, separate to the Javanese; bigger, different ricikan... though some things remained the same (such as pamor?).
Hope I didn't murky the waters.

cheers.

A. G. Maisey

7th September 2006, 09:34 AM

Yes, it is frequently noted in the literature that a keris was a weapon of last resort, however, the wedung is not a weapon, the wedung is a badge of rank , symbolising the willingness of the bearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord. Its wear is restricted to certain classes of people within the keraton hierarchy.

I know of no "traditional" belief in Jawa either at the present time, or appearing in literary works of the past, that requires a keris to draw blood once removed from its wrongko. I have read this in various popular works written by authors based in western societies, but I do not have any idea where this "traditional belief" may have come from. Nor am I aware of any beliefs of a keris "turning on" its owner because of the owner`s failure to draw blood with it. I find it extremely difficult to believe that these stories originated from any source within the Javanese cultural framework.

Amuck means to attack blindly.
The presence of a keris is not necessary for amuck to occur.

I have witnessed several cases of a person running amuck, in one case the person concerned had a bottle as a weapon. This incident occurred in Kuta, in Bali, and was brought on by insults delivered by a couple of young western tourists. The Indonesian man snapped and attacked everybody in sight with what he had in his hand, which was a soft drink bottle. Other Indonesians caught him and held him down until he came out of his rage, and when he had regained his senses he appeared to have no recollection of what had happened.

In another case the person concerned had no weapon at all.

In all cases that I have witnessed, or that I know of, the people were not really conscious of their actions.

Amuk and the phrase "babi buta", and the word "nekad" are not synonymous with "amuk".

Babi buta, or babi membuta means to rage blindly.

Nekad is a variation of nekat which simply means "determined to accomplish something no matter what"

Medical opinion seems to be that the state of amuk is brought as a semi automatic response to social pressures.

There is another form of amuk, where a person dedicates his life--- or perhaps more correctly his death--- to the destruction of enemies, however, although this does have some similarities to that which we would normally term "amuk" I personally do not like the term amuk applied to this self sacrificial action.

My readings of the biographies of several Javanese princes, and of practices within the Javanese keratons in the late colonial period indicate that Javanese princes were educated in European martial and social skills, and Javanese cultural and social skills. I have not read of a Javanese prince being taught silat, however, they were taught dance, and a number of classical dances require the keris to be used.

Lei Shen Dao

7th September 2006, 07:50 PM

Hi guys

From what I know keris was a lot in use as a weapon in the island of Madura.
Maduranese people were mostly poor in the contrary with the Javanese people, so evrything they made (from the material to the spiritual) was very strong and ready for use.

This is the case in many Maduranese keris that I have seen (I speak only for the old ones) and in fact the only Maduranese I have in my possesion (the one in my avatar :) ) indicates exactly this as a fact. It is a little longer from the original Javanese keris, very strong construction, and has a kind of smooth "nerve" all the way the blade something that you never see for example in a Tuban tilam upih. You just know that it was a weapon a long time ago the same time you'll touch it.

Maduranese people were (and in many cases still are) mostly warriors and everything they made was strong and practical. Their keris are in many cases havier and very solid and combact.

Of cource many keris are not weapons (like the one I posted some time ago in the "Raja Gundala thread"), are very delicate, soft and light constracted.

In all I know, the knife is mostly a weapon of surprise attack and it is a stubbing weapon. No nead to cut with it or to be sharp for that reason. Most combat knives all around the world are for stubbing purposes.

The keris in generall seems not to be a weapon for war, but this is not applied to all the blades.

Excuse my bad English (but I am in a harry for now)...

Take care

Pusaka

8th September 2006, 12:29 AM

In some systems of silat they learn how to use a keris for fighting. I have also seen Pendekar S Benitez performing a keris fighting jurus but can’t locate the video at the moment. As far as I know his system originates from Java from guru Ma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQduCg2gbzY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X9tvGDlbDc&mode=related&search=

Rick

8th September 2006, 12:45 AM

Vid #1This looks like Wayang inspired stuff to me .

The second vid looks like standard defense against any edged weapon.
Too much slashing involved with what seems to me a stabbing weapon.

Just my opinion as seen through uneducated Western eyes .

Pusaka

8th September 2006, 12:57 AM

I wish I could find Pendekar Steven Benitez keris jurus, he is very skilled with the keris and moves in a completely different manner.

David

8th September 2006, 01:15 AM

Pusaka, thanks for finding these videos. I find it odd to see so many slashing moves made with the keris in this footage. They seem counter-productive to the manner in which the blade is designed to work as a stabbing weapon. Frankly it mostly seems to be for show. Most keris are not edge sharp enough to make these moves worthwhile and the tang is not secured to the hilt well enough to allow too much full contact with these slashing moves.

Rick

8th September 2006, 01:19 AM

It would be interesting to see Pusaka.

As German Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke said ; no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy; or something along those lines. ;)

For instance I observe no use of the scabbard as a main gauche guard even though we are told that is a function.

Best

Rick

Lew

8th September 2006, 02:18 AM

Hey Guys

I fought with my lastest keris last week :eek: . I took it out of the box and showed it to my wife and you should have been there to see the fight :D

Lew

David

8th September 2006, 03:13 AM

Hey Guys

I fought with my lastest keris last week :eek: . I took it out of the box and showed it to my wife and you should have been there to see the fight :D

Lew

Ah Lew, you don't want to be fightin' with the missus. I've talked to her on the phone and she seems like a fine lady. Just box that keris back up and send it over to me....my wife and i are overdue anyway. ;) :D

Battara

8th September 2006, 07:35 PM

My wife is wonderful. :D She can defend herself alright.
That is why I collect bladed weaponry (self-defense :p ).

Like the demos - thank you.

Pusaka

8th September 2006, 10:52 PM

One thing to remember is that in battle the keris blades were often laced with frog poison so even a small cut would result in death whether it be from a stabbing or slashing movement.

“The dagger, called Cris ('keris') a blade measuring 2 palms in length, is made of fine steel; it bears a deadly poison”
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor3.htm

"The blade is like a snake in mid-strike. In the old days, the blade would be dipped in poison to assure certain death with the slightest stab",

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/malay_kris03.html

David

9th September 2006, 01:17 AM

Well, i wll say that i found questionable infomation in both these articles which makes me wonder at the validity of these reports of poison dipped blades.That doesn't necessarily make it not so, but it does make the information suspect in my eyes. Both these writers are operating from a perspective outside the culture which also allows for misunderstandings to take place. Anyway, both these reports seem to be about the supposed customs of the Malay peninsula, when i believe the question at hand is really the customs of Jawa in regards to the keris. I have not heard any stories relating to the use of poison on Javanese keris or Balinese or Madurese keris for that matter, though they may be out there. I would like to hear more about this, but up until now i have always assumed these tales of poison laced Malay keris to be a Western misconception. Does anyone have any more information on this?

BluErf

9th September 2006, 01:32 AM

Here in Singapore, some Chinese people that I have spoken to about the keris had the same idea that the keris was a poisoned weapon. One of them was a Chinese-educated middle-aged man who spoke little English. He must have heard it from his other Chinese-speaking friends. He also believed that kerises harboured spirits. He was concerned enough to advise me to stop collecting kerises because it was 'too much to handle' for a young man like me.

Interestingly, I was lightly scratched by a Riau spear in Adni's shop a couple of years back. It was made with similar steel and pamor material as kerises, and was etched with warangan. It was also a little bit dirty and rusty. The scratch drew very little blood, but it festered with pus for 2 weeks before healing, and it left a scar. If someone was stabbed, I'm sure he would be in some serious trouble. I wonder if this sort of observations led to the idea that the keris bore posion.

And for those interested, the spear is still in Adni's shop. I keep my distance from that spear now. :) But come to think of it, it is a beautiful spear. :D

Lew

9th September 2006, 09:54 AM

Rust,dirt, arsenic and whatever other nasty microbes that would have been on that spear could cause a nasty infection one must always be mindful when handling sharp pointy weapons :eek:

Lew

Boedhi Adhitya

11th September 2006, 07:21 AM

Despite what traditional keris 'scholars' in Java said, IMHO, keris is a deadly weapon. From the very start, that is the keris making process, what empu really do is making a fine weapons, and plus, plus, plus some more intentions, of course. But even there are many intentions, it's 'weapon construction' had never changed. It's layering construction is technologicaly the best construction possible, called Jia Gang by Chinese Jian smith or Sanmai by Japanese Katana/Nihonto smith. The 'Wasuh' process, is the purifying process also done by Chinese and Japanese smith. The 'Flaw' categorizing in Javanese keris such as Pegat Waja, Pegat Pamor, broken tang, etc also reflected the weapon assesment (such as Kizu in Katana), which then extended to symbolism and spiritual meaning. It is the Javanese cultural tendency to extend almost anything to symbolism and spiritual realm. IMHO, the development of keris symbolism would be paralel to the development of ricikans, dhapurs, and pamor motifs.

Because of it's relatively small/short blades, it never became main weapon for javanese soldier. As a weapon, keris should be considered as today's bayonet. It is, as already stated, a last resort weapon, before you use the bare hand. As the last resort, it should vanish any enemy you encounter (or they may vanish you :) ). IMHO, Those who use keris as a weapon should 'hide' the blade to 'invite' the enemy to come closer, rather than to exhibit it in a threatening pose. Considering it's relatively small tang, ones shouldn't slash or parry opponent's weapon with (Javanese) keris. Stabbing, or occasionally slicing/cutting opponent's hand, are the prefered ways. To use the warangka as a forearm protection, the elders said, ones should hold the longest wooden section in his palm, and let the gandar/pendok cover the outer forearm through the elbow. Using iron pendok, it is a sufficient, expedient forearm protection one may use to parry opponent's weapon. By using the sharp, protruding part of ladrang style sheath, ones may even use the warangka as an offensive weapon. But unfortunately, no written traditional book on using keris as a weapon ever wrote.

As already stated, no main Javanese Silat school such as Setia Hati Terate, Perisai Diri, Merpati Putih or Tapak Suci has keris jurus, as long as I remember. The Maduras Pamur school, while it use keris as it's school symbol, has it neither. If I were a Javanese soldier in old days, I would bring lance/tombak or firearm, a pedang, and two keris: a sturdy, straight one in front as my last resort, and the old one on my back as my guardian angel :). A good keris then, should fulfill the functional(weapon), aesthetical, and symbolic/spiritual requirements.

There were a murder case in Jogjakarta, where the murderer use his heirloom keris and stabb the victim on the buttock. The victim died after several hours hospitalized. Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife :D :p I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ? :D

Best Regards,

boedhi adhitya

A. G. Maisey

11th September 2006, 09:27 AM

Awas Pak Boedhi. Awas.

99.9% of what you have written is so close to my own position on the keris within Javanese society that were I to address the subject as you have, only form and words would be changed.

Meaning and intent would be unaltered.

David

11th September 2006, 02:36 PM

Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife :D :p I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ? :D

LOL! OK Boedhi, you owe me a new keyboard after making me spite up my morning coffee laughing at this. :D

Would either you or Alan like to make any comments on the validity of these stories of poison used on keris blades?

Mick

11th September 2006, 11:04 PM

Check this one out. Not a lot of flash here. Just usable stuff. Ouch!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPhUE9JzSE4

David

11th September 2006, 11:40 PM

A bit off-topic, but interesting none the less. :)
The Karambit is indeed a nasty little weapon. :eek:

kai

12th September 2006, 12:43 AM

I was taught to expect everything when fighting - never ignore/underestimate a threat just because it may seem unlikely/weird/whatever!

That being said, poisons and caustic substances seem to be an integral part of (most?) traditional MAs/warfare throughout the archipelago. AFAIK, one "acid" test for skill is that an opponent isn't able to touch/grab you at all during "rough play" (without weapons). This makes sense since you never expect a real opponent to be unarmed in the first place but it also was explained to me that possible applications of poisons, skin attacks and other very unpleasant "distractions" weighted into this cautionary approach.

I'm far from convinced that even in the "good old days" Keris blades were routinely poisoned since this would seem to be unnecessarily risky. But I seem to remember accounts that blades (Tombak, arrows, bamboo traps, etc.) were poisoned when battle was imminent.

Regards,
Kai

Kiai Carita

12th September 2006, 08:42 AM

....
As already stated, no main Javanese Silat school such as Setia Hati Terate, Perisai Diri, Merpati Putih or Tapak Suci has keris jurus, as long as I remember. The Maduras Pamur school, while it use keris as it's school symbol, has it neither. If I were a Javanese soldier in old days, I would bring lance/tombak or firearm, a pedang, and two keris: a sturdy, straight one in front as my last resort, and the old one on my back as my guardian angel :). A good keris then, should fulfill the functional(weapon), aesthetical, and symbolic/spiritual requirements.

There were a murder case in Jogjakarta, where the murderer use his heirloom keris and stabb the victim on the buttock. The victim died after several hours hospitalized. Well, Gentlemen, please use your another 'poisonous keris' when you're fighting with your wife :D :p I shouldn't tell where you should stabb her, should I ? :D

Best Regards,

boedhi adhitya

Nuwun sewu, everyone,

There was a couple of years ago a murder in Sragen where the killer used his keris and tried to convince the judge that his keris made him do it but the judge didn't have it.

In my experience there are two ways to poison your blade common in Jawa. The rich-man's way is to us warangan. A friend of mine died within hours after being stabbed in the thigh with a waranganed badik and the hospital refusing to treat him because he had tattoes. So plain warangan seems to be deadly enough.

The other is the poor-man's cacam way, in which you collect as many venomous reptiles and insects you can get, let them rot in a container, and let you blade soak in the rotting mass preferably untill there are layers of the goo on it. Every time the general elections are near and the campaiging season starts, alot of village and kampung thugs begin to do this.

There are now Western Pendekars who claim to teach Jawa silat and add keris and kujang jurus to their repertoar. However in my opinion this would be most likely be their own invention. As for Jawa Princes studying silat? Of course it happened! Although the name was kanuragan rather than silat. It was not a good thing to do (politically) though, for if the Dutch found that you were interested in martial arts your career prospects were sorely influenced.

For instance, WS Rendra's father and grandfather were silat teachers in the Yogya kraton in the line of Suryoningalogo. The late Bagong Kussudihardjo's Grandfather was Gusti Djuminah, who would have been Sultan Hamengkubawana VIII had not he been put under house arrest because of interest in silat. The more famous Merpati Putih school traces its lineage back to the times of the traitor-king Amangkurat of Kartasura.

I would like to restate my question about the position of the handle... does anyone have any picture or knowledge of how the handle was positioned in Jawa when the keris was still a weapon? And also, in the Majapahit and earlier eras, what was the keris Bali like?

Thank you all in advance,
Bram.

A. G. Maisey

12th September 2006, 01:48 PM

Warangan used to stain a keris blade does not render the blade poisonous.

The warangan combines with the ferric material of the blade , in much the same way as the chemicals used to achieve a cold blue effect in firearms , combine with the ferric material of firearms. If by some extremely unlikely chance there was a residue of arsenic on a keris blade, this residue would be so miniscule that it would not cause any injury through a poison effect.

For those with an interest in arsenic:-

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/arsenic/index.html

The word "cacam" puzzles me.

I do not know this word.

Nor do the seven Javanese people whom I have asked its meaning.

I cannot find the word in any Indonesian, Modern Javanese, or Old Javanese dictionary.

There is a word "cacampuri" in Kawi (ancient literary language) which seems to carry the meaning of mixing ingredients.

I would be very pleased to learn the meaning and origin of this word "cacam".

During colonial times there were many Javanese princes. I agree that it would be unlikely that at least some of these princes did not learn some Javanese martial art, however, in the written accounts of the education of those princes who rose to become rulers I can find no mention of these personages indulging in a study of silat, and quite frankly, I find it very difficult to reconcile the Kraton culture of the colonial era in Jawa with the study of silat by the heirs to the throne.
George Cameron Stone visited Jawa during the late colonial period, so in the matter of Javanese princes demonstrating systems of fence using the keris it is the probability of such systems being taught to Javanese royalty during this period which must be considered.I concede that the possibility does exist that George Cameron Stone was provided with a genuine exhibition of a system of fence specific to the keris, however, I cannot accept that this was a probability.

The word "kanuragan" is not a synonym for "silat".

"Kanuragan" in the sense of a protective discipline, means "invulnerable", and is a synonym of "kedhotan".

For those of you with an interest in understanding "kanuragan" you may care to visit this site:-

http://www.antarakita.net/reviews/r28.html

Gusti Djuminah was put under house arrest because of an interest in silat?
Isn`t it amazing how the truth of matters becomes buried in popular belief?
I had always thought Gusti Djuminah was exiled because he was a traitor.
Apparently many other people also think that this is what happened.

http://www.tasteofjogja.com/IDA/detailbud.asp?idbud=297

Ah well---truth will out.

Merpati Putih USA does make the claim that :-

"Merpati Putih Pencak Silat is the Indonesian Royal Family’s secret Martial Art and Inner Power System. MP was developed in the 1550’s and passed down through the generations very strictly from father to son & so on, only taught by the King to his Heirs. For over 400 years MP was very rarely if ever, seen by anyone outside the Royal Family. "
1550 is some considerable time prior to the Kartosuro era.

Regretably no references or documentation to support this claim are provided on the Merpati Putih USA website.

In spite of this long and regal history of silat in Jawa, there would seem to be no mention of it in literary sources, which to me, seems a little strange. I would have expected at least a passing mention in Centini, but I can find nothing.

I guess this proves beyond doubt that silat in Old Jawa was such a closely guarded secret, known of only by initiates, that virtually nobody else knew of its existence.

VVV

12th September 2006, 03:25 PM

Or maybe it's like fishing stories?
I have heard several examples of fantastic stories of the history of different Silat styles that is only told in US, and in some cases has been exported to European Silat circles...

Michael

Kiai Carita

12th September 2006, 03:45 PM

Pusaka

12th September 2006, 04:51 PM

You can still order poison blades today :eek: although I think the process is different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJJLhy0o-M

David

12th September 2006, 05:27 PM

Pusaka

12th September 2006, 06:34 PM

Pusaka, is there supposed to be sound on that video. Mine ran silent. :(
Just to re-focus the discussion though, i would like to hear more about the validity of poisoning KERIS blades as this is specifically a keris forum and fighting with KERIS is the question at hand. There is not doubt that blades from different areas have received such treatment, though i am a bit dubious of the method in this video since i would imagine all that intense heat would destroy any poisons in the spider.
Yes there is sound with this video and yes I agree with you, I don’t think the poison venom would survive the intense heat and acid.
I was told that the blades were poisoned simply by rubbing the blade onto a poisonous tree frog, very simple and easy to do. I have no idea as to what frog was used but that is what I was told “frog poison”

Bambang Irian

12th September 2006, 07:52 PM

Most respected members of this Forum,

Is that True.... keris for fighting? Let's see from another point of view.

This discussion of the keris becomes more and more interesting, certainly when we become involved in the discussion of the keris, we will become involved in the language, the form, and the significance of the keris, all of which become one, and have a meaning in a semiotic way.

I now wish to address one aspect of the keris, that is the aspect which we refer to as "jarwa dhosok", and which may be translated as "the modern Javanese equivalent of a literary, or an archaic , expression".

The word "keris" comes from the expression "mengker kerono aris" (mengKER kerono aRIS), which has the meaning of to distance oneself from the matters of the world and move in the direction of great wisdom.
Thus, the keris when considered from the symbolic aspect of a modern interpretation of an ancient idea is a symbol that mankind always tries to move in the direction of Great Wisdom ( Mahabijaksana), that is , God.

Then, if we consider each ricikan, or feature, of the keris, we can attach a philosophical significance to each of these ricikan.
For example:-
-the gandik can be interpreted as having the meaning that the life of man is dependent upon God.
-the sharpness (landep) of the keris can be interpreted as having the significance that a man should have a keenly aware feeling towards his environment , towards the people around him, which will enable him to move towards the culmination of his life, the final goal of his life, that is, God, and God equates to the point of the keris.

If we then address the matter of dhapur, we can see that each dhapur also has a philosophical significance in accordance with the specific form of each dhapur.Thus, this philosophy which derives from semiotic observations certainly can also be addressed from the aspect of "jarwa dhosok", or the modern Javanese way in which an ancient expression is viewed (jarwa dhosok).

The above is a very concise outline of the content of the thesis "Analisis Semiotika Makna Sosial Keris Pada Orang Jawa" (An Analysis of the Social Significance of the Keris to Javanese People) recently submitted to Universitas Pembangunan Nasional (UPN) Yogyakarta, faculty of Social and Political Science, school of Communication.This thesis was awarded an "A" grading.

Let us take as an example the way in which the dhapur "Brojol" may be interpreted.

"Brojol" is a word which relates to one process of birth, whether human birth, or animal birth, thus whether it is a human or an animal which is born, the birth itself is pure.

With ricikan which consists of only an unadorned gandik, the dhapur brojol has the significance or symbol of :-

"man must always remember and always base his life upon God, must always have a keen awareness of his environment, and always be close to God, in order that he can always be "born again" and return to the natural purity and Way of God"

If man is already born again, and has returned to the natural Way of God, thus pamor is the flower given by the empu, for instance, beras wutah which carries the hope that as time passes good fortune will increase.

Respected Forum members, I have had the assistance of a friend in providing this English translation of what I originally wrote in Indonesian. For those of you who read Indonesian I provide below a copy of my original text , in order to guard against any possible loss of meaning or feeling in the translation.

Forum yang terhormat, diskusi "keris" menjadi semakin menarik, tentu saja pada saat mendiskusikan keris kita akan melibatkan bahasa, bentuk, dan makna, yang menjadi suatu kesatuan, yang memiliki arti atau secara semiotika.

Saya langsung saja ke satu sisi, dari sekian banyak sisi tinjauan mengaenai "keris" yaitu sisi "jarwo dosok".
Keris.... berasal dari kata mengKER kerono aRIS, artinya menjauhkan diri dari hal hal duniawi menuju kepada Yang Maha Bijaksana, atau "menuju kepada yang maha bijaksana".
Makna Keris dari sisi semiotika yang "jarwo dosok" adalah symbol agar manusia selalu berusaha untuk menuju kepada yang Mahabijaksana, yaitu Tuhan.

Kemudian setiap racikan juga memiliki makna phylosophi;
- Gandik misalnya memiliki makna manusia dalam hidupnya harus selalu bersandar pada Tuhan yang Maha Esa.
- Landep, (landep ing wilah) memiliki makna agar manusia mempunyai perasaan yang tajam terhadap lingkungannnya, terhadap masyarakat sekitarnya, (setajam landep bilah keris) untuk dapat menuju kepada suatu Titik puncak yaitu ujung kehidupan, akhir kehidupan yaitu Tuhan... ujung keris (pucuk).

Selanjutnya soal dapur, setiap dapur juga memiliki makna philosophy sesuai dengan masing-masing istilah dapur, makna phylosophinya juga terdiri berbagai tinjauan sisi semiotika, dalam hal ini tetntu saja saya akan melanjutkannya dari sisi yang konsepnya "jarwo dosok".
sebagai contoh "Dapur Brojol"

Brojol adalah sebuah kata yang mengungkapkan suatu proses kelahiran, apakah itu manusia ataupun hewan, maka apapun itu yang dilahirkan tentunya dalam keadaan suci.
Dengan komposisi racikan yang hanya gandik polos, dapur Brojol memiliki makna atau symbol "manusia harus selalu ingat dan selalu menyandarkan hidupnya kepada yang maha kuasa (Tuhan), memiliki perasaan yang tajam terhadap lingkungannya, dan selalu mendekatkan diri kepadaNya agar supaya selalu dapat menjadi manusia yang; "di-lahirkan kembali", kembali ke fitrah-NYA, Born Again, suci kembali.
Jika sudah dilahirkan kembali, kembali ke fitrah-Nya, Born again, maka pamor adalah kembang yang di berikan empu, sekiranya beras wutah maka semoga semakin bertambah rejeki yang diperoleh.

Demikian forum yang terhormat.

David

12th September 2006, 09:56 PM

Pak Bambang, i am assuming (please correct me if i am wrong) that from your post you are of the school of thought which does NOT believe that the keris was ever used as a weapon for fighting in Jawa. Certainly the metaphysical designation of the keris and it's various parts is an interesting and very valuable discussion. I would much appreciate it if you would actually start a new thread devoted to this line of thought. I think that even those who believe the keris WAS used as a true weapon would not argue that this philosphical manner of interacting with the keris is an established school of thought. The question is whether or not it was always this way or developed into this school over the centuries.
Your source for the word keris, mengKER kerono aRIS = keris, is also very interesting and i have heard this before. However, it would seem best not to present this as an undisputed fact. I have heard many different root sources for the word keris, but i do not believe any of them are cut and dry sources. I honor your right to believe yours is the correct source (and it may well be), but what you are presenting is open to debate.
Do you accept that the keris was used for fighting in other parts of Indonesia such as Bali, Sulawesi or the Peninsula?

Bambang Irian

12th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Pak David, in Bali i know exactly keris not for fighting except Puputan, here i will not explain about what is Puputan. In Bali they keep keris in Holly Room, or in Pura (as Pertime), but keris for collection is different.

Just for an example in Kosamba War, Anak Agung Istri Kania and her troops killed General Michiels and some of his leutenants not using keris but using tombak n gun, keris just for sikep.

David

12th September 2006, 11:08 PM

Just to be clear, i do not believe anyone here is suggesting that the keris was used as a prime weapon of war. Even before the introduction of the gun tombak would have been a perferred weapon in warfare over the keris. It has been put forth that the keris once acted as a personal side arm that might protect from theives or other troubles on the road, for instance.
The Kusamba war and the Puputans are both fairly recent events in the great scheme of the keris. But are attitudes that were held then or today the same attitudes that were held during the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries? Can anyone show proof of this?

A. G. Maisey

13th September 2006, 01:24 AM

Bram, I thank you most sincerely for your respectful form of address, however, since I am not Indonesian, and this is an English language forum, I would feel more comfortable with observation of English language convention by using only my name, without the title "Pak". Even though we have not been formally introduced, you may use my first name, rather than my family name.

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used.

Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one.

I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan".

Can you please elucidate? Thank you.

Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta.

I can fully understand how some people, particularly a dispossessed grandson, may feel about the failure of his grandfather to take the crown, however, I would suggest that the reason for this denial of birthright by the Dutch had more to do with the political incompetence of the crown prince, rather than his interest in pencak silat.

I have absolutely no idea what could have been the cause of death in the case of the person stabbed in the thigh by a badik that had been stained with warangan.

But I am absolutely certain that it was not the warangan.

One may believe whatever one wishes in this respect, or any other, and for the person who believes that a blade treated with warangan will ensure a certain and swift death, then for that person, this is fact.However, the reality is that a blade which has been subjected to the process of warangan bears no active warangan upon its surface, and even if it did, the quantity that it might bear would be more of a medicinal nature than of death dealing one.

I did not say that Merpati Putih began prior to Kartosuro.

I said that Merpati Putih USA claimed this.

Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that Merpati Putih came from a royal source, or that it has roots going any further back than the 19th. century.

During colonial times practitioners of pencak silat were used by the Dutch administration as overseers. One of the ways in which an ordinary worker could gain advancement was to hone his martial arts skills and rise to the rank of an overseer or a controller. The elite of these people, known as "jago" were used by the Dutch as standover men and hit men.

The Dutch favoured Chinese people as tax collectors for a similar reason:- the Chinese martial art of kun tao---of which I can personally attest the effectiveness---seemed to be regarded at that time as a virtually unstoppable force, and as such more effective as an administrative tool than the various forms of pencak silat. So, the Chinese tax collectors could be expected , if necessary, to meet with little or no resistance from people relying on pencak silat.This, of course, is one of the principal roots of the dislike of the Chinese by the Javanese:- the Dutch employed the Chinese to collect tax and as a tool of enforcement that was more effective than the other tools of enforcement used by the Dutch.The Chinese were also more commercially able than the Javanese, so the people of Jawa were faced by a Dutch tool that had not only a commercial mentality, but had the physical ability to enforce Dutch demands.This must have been a truly horrible situation to live under.

Pencak silat appears to have entered Central Jawa during the 19th century, having been brought there by overseers whom the Dutch imported from Sunda. Sunda had been developed for Dutch purposes prior to the development of the Central Javanese plain, so when the farming lands of Central Jawa began to be exploited for Dutch gain, they used experienced overseers and controllers from their plantations in Sunda.

This appearance of pencak silat in the Javanese heartland during the 19th century would explain why Javanese literature from Centini and before appears to have no mention of pencak silat.

A further reason for the non-appearance of references in Javanese literature to pencak silat could well be because pencak silat seems to have been an art of the masses, rather than an art of the elite. Since the literature of early Jawa all comes from palace sources, one could hardly expect palace poets to write of the doings of labourers.

On the other hand, the practice of mystical exercises in attempts to gain invulnerability does sit perfectly with Javanese kraton culture of the colonial period, thus I believe we can accept that kanuragan was practiced amongst the elites during the colonial period

Let me conclude my remarks with this rider:-

I have no interest in any martial art, and I have no agenda to promote one martial art above any other, equally, I have no intent to denigrate any martial art.

I have a high respect for all martial artists because of their dedication to an athletic ideal that embodies both physical and mental prowess.

The martial arts of Jawa form a part of the culture of Jawa, and as such have my respect, however, to misrepresent, or to distort the true history and nature of this cultural element of Jawa is to do a disservice to the cultural inheritance of the Javanese people.

A. G. Maisey

13th September 2006, 01:54 AM

I personally feel that Pak Bambang`s submission on the present day position of the keris in Javanese society belongs exactly where it is.

I think the original question was something like---"when did the keris cease to be a weapon"

Pak Bambang`s submission , I believe, is perfectly in context with the search for an answer to this question, for as he points out, he is presenting only one aspect of the nature of the keris, and that aspect relates to present day belief.

I understand perfectly where Pak Bambang is coming from, and although I do not personally agree with this position, I would be a fool if I did not acknowledge that for many people in present day Jawa, what Pak Bambang has written represents the truth.

This of course raises the question of the nature of truth, but truth, like history , becomes actual when sufficient people believe that something is so.

For instance, Pak Bambang has used the dapur brojol as an example to reinforce his position.

However---

the word "brojol" has the meaning:- "lower on one side than on the other"

the association of dapur brojol with the birthing process draws upon derivatives of "brojol", that is, "mbrojol", "kebrojol", and "kebrojolan"

For somebody who wishes to attach a symbolic meaning to dapur brojol, it is natural that that symbolic meaning should be to do with birth, and if sufficient people believe that the placement of a keris of dapur brojol under a bed when a woman is ready to give birth, will ease that birth, then for those people, and for the woman concerned, the keris will ease the birth.

But for an objective cynic, dapur brojol is named thus because the base of the blade is very obviously lower on one side than on the other.

Regarding the cultural position of the keris in Bali.

Pak Bambang, I regret that I must disagree with your statements in this regard.

Whilst it is true that the keris did play a part in the puputans, a study of early literature and sources makes it very clear that the keris in Bali prior to European domination of Bali, very definitely fulfilled a weapon role. Most certainly, the role of the Balinese keris as a weapon varied significantly from the role of the spear, the sword, and firearms, but this current sanitisation of the Balinese keris is completely off the mark when measured against the evidence.

David

13th September 2006, 03:19 AM

A. G. Maisey

13th September 2006, 04:14 AM

Yes, I take your point, David.

Perhaps we could all benefit from an exploration of this aspect of the keris.

I do still feel that Pak Bambang`s contribution belongs where it is, for my already stated reason. After all, the keris has had different natures at different times in its history, and here we have a good, clear explanation of how some people regard the nature of the keris today.

This effectively says:- in Jawa, in the year 2006, and for some indeterminate time prior to that, a body of people do not accept that the nature of the keris is that of weapon.

By clearly establishing this attitude at this time and place, it frees us to move backwards in time to the point where the keris was regarded as a weapon.

I personally see Pak Bambang`s contribution as quite valuable in establishing these parameters of time and place.

However, perhaps somebody who holds similar beliefs to those put forward by Pak Bambang may feel inclined to open new discussion along these lines.

Kiai Carita

13th September 2006, 02:55 PM

...Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

I understand your reference now. The word is "cencem", to soak in oil and poison. This appears to be another example of dialect difference that makes Javanese such a nightmare of a language.I am aware of this practice, and in my files I have several recipes for preparation of the soak medium. I have no doubt at all that you may have seen blades being prepared for use in this way, my only question related to the word you used.

Yes, kanuragan can be a part of pencak silat, or it can stand alone, but it is not a synonym for pencak silat. Kanuragan is perhaps more similar to tenaga dalam , than to the pencak forms, and is essentially a mystical practice, rather than a physical one.

I am not familiar with the word:- "katosan".

Can you please elucidate? Thank you.

Regarding Gusti Djuminah. I will preface my remarks by saying that I have only a slight understanding of the situation in Yogyakarta , and especially in the Kraton Yogya , at the time of the transmission of power from HB VII to HBVIII. However, what I have read indicates that the crown prince was a a troublemaker and obstructionist, who did indeed seem to pose future problems for the Dutch administration. In light of the wealth that HBVII accrued under Dutch policy, this would seem to have been a particularly stupid attitude to adopt, and since the well being of the people of Yogya was dependent upon the economy of the region, it could be, and apparently was, interpreted by many people as a betrayal of the people who were resident of Yogyakarta.

Alan, katosan (from the word atos) is a synonym to kanuragan. It is certainly more tenaga-dalam and magic knowledge than pencak-silat movement. Names such as Brajamusthi, Lembu Sekilan, Gelap Ngampar...

From what I know, originally Merpati Putih was also a breathing system without silat movement. The silat movement came later in the 20th century. Myself, I practise Bangau Putih, which before RI was called Kuntao. During the early Rekiblik years in Yogya, pencak silat recieved much support and developed rapidly with people like Pak Sukowinadi and Pak Harimurti teaching it to the masses. I think that Pakualam was very interested in silat as well and during the 19th century brought in teachers to teach the princes.

In Central Jawa it would seem that most silat traces it's lineage to Cimande in Bogor or to the people of Minangkabau land, or the Bugis and the Madurese. However, reading Pramoedya Ananta Toer's descriptions of Galeng's fights in his novel Arus Balik, it would seem that Pak Pram (alm) believed that pencak was already there at the fall of Majapahit. O'ong Maryono's research found the first mention of pencak silat in literature was in Kidung Sundayana in the sad story of the Pajajaran puputan against Gajahmada.

Now, back to the keris as a fighting weapon. Myself I would be inclined to believe that although the keris was used as the last weapon, the fact that many keris do not have the structural integrity to be used in a fight, makes me think that the fighting part, in Jawa, was always secondary to the sipat-kandhel function. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a weapon, the design would have somewhat become more specialized for the purpose. If I were to make a fighting keris I would make sure there was a sturdy ada-ada and a screw type pesi to make it hold stronger in the ukiran.

You find all sorts of keris with tangguh that indicate rather ancient times, Jenggala, Kediri, for example... and also in these ancient tangguh, you have the huge variety of dhapur, some would be more suitable for fighting than the others. I would imagine that if the keris was primarily a side-arm, then there would not be that many dhapur as only the practical ones would be ordered. I believe the situation is thus in Malaysia, Sumatra, the Philippines, the Bugis all of them have rather simple and much more sturdy keris than the Jawa blade.

Regarding Gusti Juminah, the website you pointed me to was Pak Bagong's brother's website. There he is said to be membelot (to become traitor) but the subject of that site is his grandson, and to become traitor to the Dutch means to become hero to the people.

I am still interested in the angle the ukiran is fitted on to the tang. Does anyone have any information about how the Jawanese positioned the ukiran in pre-Mataram II times?

Warm salams to all,
Bram.

David

13th September 2006, 07:20 PM

You can still order poison blades today :eek: although I think the process is different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJJLhy0o-M

Well, i did finally get the sound to work on this video. If these spiders are so deadly and kill within hours, can someone tell be why they are crawling all over these guys in the video? I also don't see how the poisons that these spiders supposedly carry can survive the fire and the acid that is used in this process. The whole thing sounds pretty sketchy to me. :rolleyes:

David

13th September 2006, 07:43 PM

I am still interested in the angle the ukiran is fitted on to the tang. Does anyone have any information about how the Jawanese positioned the ukiran in pre-Mataram II times?

Bram, i wonder if your best bet on this question would be to view some of the early acquistions that are in some Dutch museums and collections. I think some of these were collected as early as the 16th century. Though it is possible that the hilts have moved position over the years i think this would be our best chance of seeing the presentation of a keris from that era.
While many keris may not have the structural integrity for fighting, many actually do. So likewise one might ask why bother making a blade with the structural integrity to fight if that is not it's intention. Why bother to temper blades. Many modern keris makers do not quelch the blade after forging for fear of destroying their work, but this was not the case with older keris. Why did mpus in the past take the risk to quelch blades is they didn't need to be battle-ready? Also it is certainly the case that many of the older blades that we see have had their structural integrity compromised by many years of acid washings. Again, pristine blades that are held in old collections that have not gone through this continual process might prove to be more structurally sound and battle ready.
Certainly there were always blades that were made purely for talismanic purposes and these may have always been thin or in some way physically unsuitable for fighting. Your point about the many different dapurs is well taken, but keep in mind that the vast majority of keris are simple, straight blades. I would not be surprised to find that different and complex dapurs were developed over the years with purely symbolic purposes involved. Still, many straight, sturdy and practical blades have come out of Jawa over the centuries which would do quite well in a fight.

A. G. Maisey

14th September 2006, 12:09 AM

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

This is the first time I have heard or read katosan. I understand the root, but to find this word I had to look at five different Javanese dictionaries before I found "katosan" in one of them as a derivative of "atos", and given as a synonym of "kadigdyan", which I think is a fairly commonly used word. Thanks for this knowledge.

I did not know that Bangau Putih was Kun Tao. My wife was a dedicated practitioner of kun tao in her youth, and has several fairly respected kun tao people in her family, all older people, and located in East Jawa. They still refer to kun tao as kun tao.

Your outline of the origins of silat is more or less as I understand it, but I really don`t think we can place a lot of historical credibility on the writings of a popular novelist, no matter how respected he may be. Ever watch "Angling Darmo" or any of the other Indonesian historical soaps? Or for that matter, look at the way popular writers present the history and society of any country. No, I really do feel that we must treat Pramoedya Ananta Toer's work in the way it was intended to be treated.

I am familiar with the Kidung Sundayana, and a quick check of my copies does not seem to have any mention of pencak silat. I am not claiming that the version accessed by O'ong Maryono does not mention pencak silat, however, it would be interesting to know what version that was, and what canto within the work. Do you have access to this information?

However, be that as it may, I think we can probably accept that during the period when rulers were dependent upon the physical prowess of individual warriors for the maintenance of their military power, pencak silat, or something rather like it would have been one of the required capabilities of at least some of the royal forces. I seem to recall reading somewhere that early Chinese merchants used to be accompanied by professional "empty hand" fighters when they visited Jawa. I guess there was probably some transference of knowledge from that direction too.

Regarding the keris and its capability as a weapon. When we look at an old keris now, we should try to bear in mind that what we usually see is only a shadow of what that keris was when it was new.Examination of early keris that were taken to Europe when those keris were new, or near to it, demonstrates quite conclusively that the types of keris that we are used to regarding as slight and frail, when new, were very serious weapons.I suggest reference to "Den Indonesiske Kris"--Karsten Sejr Jensen--ISSN 0108-707X.

On the subject of tangguh, one should consider the social reasons for the origin of this system of classification, before attaching too much credibilty to the alignment of any specific tangguh with a historical period.

Yes, I do understand the reversal of roles that could be applied to Gusti Djuminah, however, the fact remains that the public sources relating to this gentleman indicate that he was at the very least , politically inept. It is obvious that the Dutch could not afford to approve the installation of a traditional lord whose character and attitudes were such that it was feared he could bring economic ruin to the area over which he held control.Under HBVII enormous wealth had flowed into the Yogya area, which benefitted not only HBVII, but also his people, and not least the Dutch. It would appear that many people at that time were afraid that if Gusti Djuminah were to be installed as HBVIII Yogya would suffer economic reversal. The reason he was not installed as HBVIII was because it was believed that his taking of the crown could have resulted in economic ruin for that part of Jawa. His grandson may believe that it was because Gusti Djuminah had an interest in pencak silat, that Gusti Djuminah did not ascend the throne, personally I prefer to accept the historical version rather than the grandson`s version. But we are all free to believe that which we will.

Just as an aside:- it really does assist in understanding what occurred in Jawa, and the rest of the old Dutch East Indies, under the Dutch, if one adopts the attitude of an accountant. Every single action that involved the Dutch in the Indies, following the bankruptcy in 1798 of the VOC, and the assumption of its role by the Dutch Government, was the product of a bureaucratic philosophy administered by accountants. The Dutch were very good accountants.

This ongoing question of handle position on a Central Javanese keris is easily understood if the keris is held correctly. The blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger,at the blumbangan, and the first joint of the index finger is anchored against the gonjo, the middle finger, ring finger, and little finger lightly touch the handle but have only a guide and balance role. Held in this way, there is no pressure on the handle at all, it simply acts as an aid to blade orientation. The handle is used to draw the keris, and to replace it, but if the keris is to be used, it is not held by the handle, but by the method described above. The essence of keris use is that it must be very, very fast. Ideally so fast that the blade is not seen. Try holding a keris as I have described and see how very much faster this is than gripping it by the handle. A Javanese keris gripped by the handle really feels very clumsy and "dead".

Kiai Carita

14th September 2006, 02:00 PM

Thank you for your explanation, Bram.

This is the first time I have heard or read katosan. I understand the root, but to find this word I had to look at five different Javanese dictionaries before I found "katosan" in one of them as a derivative of "atos", and given as a synonym of "kadigdyan", which I think is a fairly commonly used word. Thanks for this knowledge.

You are welcome Alan, I learn new things from you and the members of this forum as well. Katosan - kadigdayan - kanuragan - jaya kawijayann and even sometimes called kanoman - from the word anom (young) meaning usually you learn these things when you are young.

I did not know that Bangau Putih was Kun Tao. My wife was a dedicated practitioner of kun tao in her youth, and has several fairly respected kun tao people in her family, all older people, and located in East Jawa. They still refer to kun tao as kun tao.

Yes, Persatuan Gerak Badan Bangau Putih comes from Pek Ho Pay, based on Chinese White Crane from a Chinese family in Bogor's 'Chinatown'. The older generation still calls it kuntao but as you would know, under $uharto it was 'illegal' to be Chinese.

Your outline of the origins of silat is more or less as I understand it, but I really don`t think we can place a lot of historical credibility on the writings of a popular novelist, no matter how respected he may be. Ever watch "Angling Darmo" or any of the other Indonesian historical soaps? Or for that matter, look at the way popular writers present the history and society of any country. No, I really do feel that we must treat Pramoedya Ananta Toer's work in the way it was intended to be treated.

Easy here Alan, I don't think that Pak Pram (alm) can be compared to the historical soaps which are made without any research. When I was younger I used to visit Pak Pram under house arrest and once he told me that he wrote for Nation Building - he was a Soekarno admirer.

I am familiar with the Kidung Sundayana, and a quick check of my copies does not seem to have any mention of pencak silat. I am not claiming that the version accessed by O'ong Maryono does not mention pencak silat, however, it would be interesting to know what version that was, and what canto within the work. Do you have access to this information?

You are lucky to have Kidung Sundayana, Alan. I read about it in Pencak Silat Merentang Waktu by O'ong Maryono...It is not called silat by the way, rather the word used is ulin - play. It is mentioned in the part describing the Pajajaran King's retinue, there were performances of fighters who would ulin with various weapons. I havn't got O'ongs book at hand though.

Regarding the keris and its capability as a weapon. When we look at an old keris now, we should try to bear in mind that what we usually see is only a shadow of what that keris was when it was new.Examination of early keris that were taken to Europe when those keris were new, or near to it, demonstrates quite conclusively that the types of keris that we are used to regarding as slight and frail, when new, were very serious weapons.I suggest reference to "Den Indonesiske Kris"--Karsten Sejr Jensen--ISSN 0108-707X.

Very interesting, thank you for telling me this.

On the subject of tangguh, one should consider the social reasons for the origin of this system of classification, before attaching too much credibilty to the alignment of any specific tangguh with a historical period.

It always baffled me that there were sophisticated dhapurs in tangguh Jenggala and tangguh Kediri when the reliefs on the candi built by Singasari showed more simple 'primitive' betok types.

Yes, I do understand the reversal of roles that could be applied to Gusti Djuminah, however, the fact remains that the public sources relating to this gentleman indicate that he was at the very least , politically inept. It is obvious that the Dutch could not afford to approve the installation of a traditional lord whose character and attitudes were such that it was feared he could bring economic ruin to the area over which he held control.Under HBVII enormous wealth had flowed into the Yogya area, which benefitted not only HBVII, but also his people, and not least the Dutch. It would appear that many people at that time were afraid that if Gusti Djuminah were to be installed as HBVIII Yogya would suffer economic reversal. The reason he was not installed as HBVIII was because it was believed that his taking of the crown could have resulted in economic ruin for that part of Jawa. His grandson may believe that it was because Gusti Djuminah had an interest in pencak silat, that Gusti Djuminah did not ascend the throne, personally I prefer to accept the historical version rather than the grandson`s version. But we are all free to believe that which we will.

Well, his grandson happens to be one of my Gurus and several of his his great grandchildren are my brothers, so while I understand the Dutch position, I believe the family. After all, the Dutch shouldn't have been there in the first place. Since the beginning Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat had an anti-colonial streak to it. An other of my Guru, the poet Rendra, comes from the Suryoningalaga house of Yogyakarta. His father was a silat teacher in the kraton before he had an argument with the Suktan and he moved to Solo.

Just as an aside:- it really does assist in understanding what occurred in Jawa, and the rest of the old Dutch East Indies, under the Dutch, if one adopts the attitude of an accountant. Every single action that involved the Dutch in the Indies, following the bankruptcy in 1798 of the VOC, and the assumption of its role by the Dutch Government, was the product of a bureaucratic philosophy administered by accountants. The Dutch were very good accountants.

So true, something to always remember.

This ongoing question of handle position on a Central Javanese keris is easily understood if the keris is held correctly. The blade is pinched between thumb and forefinger,at the blumbangan, and the first joint of the index finger is anchored against the gonjo, the middle finger, ring finger, and little finger lightly touch the handle but have only a guide and balance role. Held in this way, there is no pressure on the handle at all, it simply acts as an aid to blade orientation. The handle is used to draw the keris, and to replace it, but if the keris is to be used, it is not held by the handle, but by the method described above. The essence of keris use is that it must be very, very fast. Ideally so fast that the blade is not seen. Try holding a keris as I have described and see how very much faster this is than gripping it by the handle. A Javanese keris gripped by the handle really feels very clumsy and "dead".

I tried this, problem was then that I did not have the strength to stab, could easily slip and cut my hand. I think the Sumatra - Malay way of positioning the ukiran is the 'correct' way to have it if the keris is to be used to fight. That way it is like a pistol grip and you can stab as hard as you like without the risk of your hand slipping.

Thanks for the dialogue I really appreciate it.

Hormat saya,
Bram.

A. G. Maisey

14th September 2006, 11:02 PM

Oh, I see, "play" rather than "pencak silat".

Yes, that is understandable. There is mention of keris play in the Pararaton too.However, the translation of "ulin" as "play" has me puzzled. In Old Javanese "ulin" has a couple of different meanings, but "play" is not one of them. The closest we can get to play is probably "wave", or "hold up".Still I guess that depending on the context, one of these meanings might be able to be stretched to "play".

Regarding the keris grip. It does work, some years back when I had an interest in the more bloody aspects of keris study I was taught how to hold and use a keris in this way. It would be difficult to use an old, worn keris like this, because the narrowness of the top of the gonjo will bite into the index finger, but with a keris that provides sufficient support for the index finger, this grip works beautifully.In fact, held correctly in this way, the keris locks itself into your hand.There is absolutely no risk of your hand slipping down the blade, because that blade is locked against the base of the index finger.

Boedhi Adhitya

15th September 2006, 07:34 AM

Dear Kyai Carita,

As I'm mostly handling the Jogja's style handles, which are very probably the smallest style of keris' handles, I suggest a slightly different/modified way of (Javanese) keris handles gripping. I, and most experienced keris's lover here in Jogja as I observed, pinched the end of mendhak where it meets ganja (very much likely as you pinch your steak knife). The end of the handle should rest firmly on the lower part/base of your palm, and other fingers (that are, your middle, ring, and little fingers) should keep the handle that ways. In this way, your elbow, forearm and pesi should make a straight line (in 'ready-to-stab' position) while the tip/point of angled blade should resemble your (now curled) index finger. You may employ this method just before you draw your keris, as the proper way to draw the Javanese keris is to push the 'thorn' part of wrangka with your thumb. If you are right handed, the gandhik should face left and the buntut urang/'tail' should protect your outer side of the hand. It is suggested that you held the keris at waist height, and strike only the opponent's abdoment or heart, by pushing the keris with your palm. If the keris where made and handled properly, it's handling would be very firm and as natural as pointing and thrusting with your index finger. It is, as Alan said, a serious (and deadly) weapons. Despite it's 'clumsy' appearance, it has been proven to be very functional and ergonomic as a stabbing weapon. IMHO, that's why other area outside Java (while many expert believe, Java is the home of keris) adopt the keris as one of their personal 'arsenal', despite their own 'indigenous' weapons such as Badik or Rencong which roughly are the same 'class'.
Pinching blumbangan/pejetan, as Alan suggested, would certainly works and very fine too, but it may stained your blade (something you wouldn't consider in the face of enemy, I believe). Handling and drawing the keris as the same as golok would show instantly (in Java) that the handler is inexperience. Please remind, the Javanese handles are gauged for Javanese, which, I believe, has smaller hand/palm than Caucasian, in general.

About the handle position of Javanese keris, it is already 'battle ready' as it is. No need to change it to an angled position such as Malay/Bugis handle. It just need a firm and proper fitting. No gap allowed between the ganja, mendhak and handle. It is recommended to use shellac to mount the handle to give it firm fit, If you consider to use it as a weapon. I should tell you, contrary to common belief to mount keris handle with hair in old days, ALL Jogjakarta Court and their very immediate families' keris handles are shellaced. Hair and cloth seems to be used by commoners.

About the poisons,..
Well, as Alan said, warangan mainly composed of Arsenic, which is a 'slow poison', unless you take it a teaspoonfull. Proper method of 'marangi' would only leave a small amount of it on the blade (I'm not saying none!), which, I believe, not capable of poisoning someone to death in hours. It may have some effect, such as a long healing wound, but will not kill you instantly or in hours. I don't know the effect of other poisoning methods already mentioned. While it is written in Ensiklopedi Keris, I have never met,heard or found someone here in Jogja practising the 'Cacab/Cem-ceman' method. I suggest someone give it a try (to mice or other creatures, if you have a heart, and not human or fellow forumities certainly), and I would love to hear the result :)
Another way of making the blade poisonous by villagers in marangi process include coating the blade with over-saturated warangan solutions (usually the white, low grade, cheap one) and to let it dry under the sun without cleaned it first. The result is the blade covered with warangan powder, which is not only ugly and dirty, but may corroded the blade as the acid wasn't cleaned properly. Rust may occurs in several days. Don't do it at home, please.

About the 'poisoning' effect of keris or tombak, Harimurti AKA Ndoro Hari, the son of Prince Tejokusuma HB VII (as already mentioned by Kiai Carita as a famous Pendekar of Jogjakarta) had a story, which is quoted in a book dedicated to him, written by one of his students, S. Lumintu (and then quoted by me :) ): When Ndoro Hari was young, he used to follow the close 'free-fight-championship' followed by many pendekars, and only pendekar allowed. It was a very deadly championship, as 'free' means 'free', you may use any method and any weapons you wish. The death result, was very common. One day, Ndoro Hari must fought against pendekar which use a tombak pusaka as his weapon. Ndoro Hari saw as if there was a flame covering the tombak. He knew, it was a deadly tombak. At the end of the fight, Ndoro Hari, who used no weapon, managed to catch the tombak under his armpit and step on the wooden shaft and broke it, and thus succesfully defeat his opponent. Unfortunately, when he caught the tombak, it left a minor cut on his waist. Just after the fight, he felt he lost his strength, and the cut felt like burning. He asked his companion to brought him to a Kyai who was his teacher in Ngawi quickly, which was several hours away (Ndoro Hari had many teachers. He wandered Java to learn pencak silat). Reaching Ngawi, Ndoro Hari was already weak, he couldn't walk by himself. His teacher quickly helped him. 'If only you are late for an hour or two, your life couldn't be saved,' the Kyai said.

A flame covering the spear point or keris, is quite 'common' reported. But it could only happen in a very serious situation, when the bearer very intended and determined to use the pusaka as a weapons. One cannot turn it 'on' and 'off' as if it is a flashlight. Belief it or not belief it, one should be very careful with such a weapons, or any weapons.

Keris in general has many functions and aspects, which developed through times. IMHO, one function don't necessarily erased anothers. It only add another dimension. But if we discuss a single specific blade, we may discuss what dimension this specific blade belongs to. Was it intended by the maker as a weapon, as a social-class attribute, as a talismanic device, as just a daily clothing accessories or other functions ? One specific blade could serve more than one function, and very limited ones were intended by the maker to serve all aspects/functions.

Alan,
Sorry for 'repeating' your post. I 99% agree with you. I save the 1% for future use :)

David,
Yes, I owe you a new keyboard. I do owe many keyboards and apologize to the forumities who incidently 'broke their keyboard' by one or other reasons, after reading my previous post :)

Best regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

A. G. Maisey

15th September 2006, 09:08 AM

Pak boedhi, do me a favour:- please don`t hit me with that 1%.

1% , well directed and pushed hard , can kill.

Your remarks on the dimensions, or facets, of a keris are very fitting. This is something that is often overlooked.

drdavid

16th September 2006, 11:32 AM

Hi all
for what it is worth, I was just re-reading Mr Maisey's post on gripping the keris and it struck me as I was trying it out how similar it is to the way I recall being taught to handle a fencing foil (admittedly it is 25 years since I did any fencing but a firm smack with a foil on your calf from the old Hungarian master has a way of imprinting things). The fencing grip (unless you are using a modern custom moulded handpiece) is all thumb and index finger with the other fingers providing only the lightest of control on the hilt, angling the wrist provided a lot of the change in attack. Of course the fencing foil (and epee) can only score with the tip much as a keris could only 'score' with the point. A foil has the advantage of length over a keris but a keris (even in its heavily worn state) has the advantage of bulk over a foil.
cheers
DrD

A. G. Maisey

18th September 2006, 01:08 AM

Several people have asked me for a photo of the grip I describe.

Here you have two.

Georgia

29th September 2006, 03:46 AM

Hi all
I'm really grateful for this forum, what a fantastic resource!
I just wanted to go back to the issue of arsenic residues remaining on blades, and their potential toxicity. I'm currently working on a project about keris in public collections for my masters degree in conservation, and as part of this I recently tested nine blades in an Australian museum's collection for the presence of arsenic. Having discussed the project with Alan Maisey previously, and understanding that the staining process (when done properly) should not result in any free arsenic remaining on the blade's surface, I did not really expect much from these tests, however all tested positive, with two having particularly strong results, up to 0.35mg/L (the Merck test I used requires the sample to be dissolved/suspended in water). While it would be difficult for any staff handling these objects to inhale, ingest, or absorb a signifcant amount of the residue, it is certainly present in sufficient amounts to cause adverse health effects. However, the World Heath Organisation states in its arsenic safety guide (http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg070.htm#SectionNumber:2.6) "In man, the smallest recorded fatal dose is in the range of 70-180 mg, but recovery has been reported after much larger doses" - this suggests that for it to work effectively as a poison on a keris blade, there would have to be much more residue on the surface than would result from staining with warangan.
Raffles' wrote in his History of Java "it is usual to immerse the blade in lime juice and a solution of arsenic, which, by eating away and corroding the iron, may probably render the wound more angry and inflamed, and consequently more difficult to cure, but it has never been considered that death is the consequence." (vol. 1 p. 352) ... I reckon it would depend on where the wound is!

David

29th September 2006, 04:20 AM

Yes, i reckon it would depend on where the wound is! :D
Your information on arsenic residue is very interesting. You say that 2 of the 9 blades you tested had levels as high as 0.35 mg/L. What was the lowest level tested? What was your average result? Considering that much larger doses taken internally are necessary to cause death, why do you feel that these levels might cause adverse heath effects? Using the Merck test it seems that you draw the arsenic off into the suspension water. How long does this process take? How would arsenic in any significant amount be absorbed or ingested by the body through normal handling of a blade? Would the arsenic residue on the blade be naturally inclined to be airborne? Barring being cut by or licking the blade how would arsenic residue on a keris actually get into the human system in significant amounts to actually cause health problems?
Thanks in advance for addressing these many questions from a scientific layman. :)

A. G. Maisey

29th September 2006, 05:41 AM

Good to see you back, Georgia.

I`m possibly not all that surprised by the results you report.

All keris that I have seen in public collections in Australia have been in a very neglected condition. There is nearly always some sort of dust, or I guess you could say "residue" , on the surface of these blades. They are dry, sad, and tending towards rust. My guess is that as the surface of the metal corrodes, it frees the arsenic, along with the ferric material, so if you take a sample from one of these neglected blades, you are going to get a positive result for arsenic.

On the other hand, in a properly stained and maintained blade, there is no residue on the blade surface. The blade is clean and smooth.

I've said it before, and since I'm not a chemist, I could well be wrong, but it is my firm belief that when we stain a blade, the arsenic combines with the ferric material and causes it to change colour. The amount of arsenic used in staining a blade is tiny, frankly, I've never been able to detect any loss of arsenic in the lime juice suspension, after a staining job is complete.

I reckon that if you allowed a gun barrel to tend towards corrosion, then sampled the dust on the gun barrel, you would probably test positive for the chemicals used in blueing of the gun barrel.

There`s another factor too that perhaps should be considered:- the natural occurence of arsenic in the material used in the blade. I remember nearly 20 years ago I queried Prof Jerzy Piaskowski`s test results that showed arsenic in his analyses, and he assured me that it was a natural component of the material, not from the staining process.

I do not know nor understand the test process you used, but if the sample involved the physical removal of surface material, it seems to me that perhaps this natural presence of arsenic could also be considered.

Please do not misunderstand what I driving at here:- I'm not knocking your work:you've carried out a legitimate test, and you have proven the presence of arsenic. However, I feel that there are some other factors that should be considered, and to my mind, foremost amongst these factors is the condition of the surface of the blade. I would suggest that in a properly maintained blade you would not be able to test for arsenic, simply because you would not be able to locate nor extract a residue.

If this is so, then perhaps your finding could be that in a badly maintained blade that displays a surface residue, that residue may be presumed to contain arsenic, and thus should be handled in an appropriate manner.

As to poisoning by arsenic, well, in early times I believe arsenic was used in very small doses as a medication. I am not suggesting that it was effective, but apparently people at one time thought it was effective for something.

Not long ago timber products were treated with arsenic to prevent rot. Workers who handled these timber products, or who applied the arsenic compounds used , had to be tested regularly for build up of arsenic in their bodies. It was absobed through the skin. I know of cases where people worked with these timber products for virtually their entire working lives, and never accumulated sufficient arsenic in their system to warrant having them removed from that particular type of work.

Along the same line. The method used to stain very high quality keris blades , and that should be used to stain royal blades, involves the person doing the staining to actually have bare hand contact for extended periods with the arsenic suspension. The old Javanese gentlemen who do this work do not get tested for build up of arsenic, and eventually they die. Usually at a fairly advanced age from something like emphysema or a traffic accident.

Still, the Land of Oz is not Jawa, and we do tend to be rather sensitive on workplace safety. I would suggest that all curators and conservators should be paid a special loading when required to handle keris and similar weapons. Apart from the possible metaphysical danger, we now know that there is arsenic present in the workplace, and it would be unreasonable to expect anybody to take any level of risk with this hazardous chemical, unless appropriately compensated.

I'm looking forward to seeing your completed paper.

How far along are you?

Georgia

29th September 2006, 06:04 AM

Hi David

Thanks for your interest! Seven of the blades had much lower levels, ie less than 0.1mg/L (which was the smallest amount discernable on the test's reference colour scale, although all of the tests showed some colour change, ie greater than 0.0mg/L). Because the colour scale is logarithmic (0, 0.1, 0.5, 1.0 etc) it's hard to be precise about the exact quantity of arsenic in each solution when the colour of the test strip doesn't exactly correspond to a colour on the chart; it's safer to just say 'under 0.1mg/L'.

The process for preparing the sample was to collect a solid sample from the surface of the blade (under the microscope), usually from within the crevice between the gonjo and the blade or in the deeper parts of the ricikan, and allow this to soak in water for 30 mins-1 hr. In a couple of cases the surface was too uniform and so a small area would be swabbed with water and the swab allowed to soak. I also tested swabbing and solubilising with ethanol, in the cases where old coatings of oil may have interefered with the solubility of the sample in water. With such a small sample size, I'm not sure how valuable an average is, but I'd say it's about 0.1 mg/L.

While it's true that a much larger dose is required to be instantly fatal, there's a lot of grey area in between being well and being dead! Arsenic can affect health in the short term (nausea, diarrhea, skin problems) and long term (problems with skin, gastrointestinal tract, nervous system, mucous membranes, lungs, and liver). Long term exposure has been linked to cancer.
As I mentioned, it would have to be pretty unlikely for a person handling one of the two keris with the strong positive results to absorb enough arsenic to be a concern, however I think it's better that staff be aware of the potential hazard and perhaps just be that little bit more careful when handling them.
On one of the blades there was a powdery residue on the surface which was easily dislodged. If, for example, a conservator was to brush clean this (thinking it was dust) and breathed it in, it might be enough to make them crook. Most staff would be wearing gloves anyway when handling metal objects, and I don't think there'd be much licking going on, so this is the only way I can think of where it might be a concern.

I don't know if this is going to change your mind about the way you handle your own keris, and I don't know that it necessarily should; I do think though that staff working in public museums should be aware of potential risks, no matter how slight, when handling objects they perhaps have no prior knowledge of.

I hope this has answered all your questions!

Georgia

29th September 2006, 06:24 AM

Hi Alan - we must have been writing the last post simultaneously, so I just missed yours! Thanks for your reply, I think that's a very valid point you have made about the possibility of corroding iron releasing arsenic from the patination layer; the blade I tested which had the strongest result certainly had a powdery whitish-grey residue on the surface and the blade itself was not in the best condition. However, the other blade with a strong positive was in a much better condition and did not have much in the way of surface residues, in fact the only reason I chose it from the 40-odd keris in the collection was because it of one of the darkest and most obviously stained. The sample I picked from its surface was an oily sort of gunk from along the gonjo.
Regarding the possibility of arsenic being present in the iron, that is definitely a possibility (I think arsenic is one of the main trace elements found in iron), but I don't know if it would be there in large enough amounts to be picked up by the Merck test. In any case, the samples collected were of the residues and not the metal itself, so I don't think this is very likely.
One other possible cause is the 19th century museum practice of slathering collection items with arsenic to kill pests - although this was usually confined to natural history/organic collections, perhaps someone decided it would be worth it to protect the handles and sheaths?
My project's coming along steadily, I'll send it to you in the next few weeks to have a look. Got five more weeks til it's due! Thanks for your help.
G

A. G. Maisey

29th September 2006, 06:45 AM

Yeah, I reckon that muck that gets in around the gonjo would certainly have arsenic in it. Even in one of my nice clean shiny keris with a perfectly patinated surface I reckon you could dig something out from between the gonjo and the blade proper that would test for arsenic.

What I reckon you could not do would be to remove sufficient of anything from the surface of a properly maintained blade to get a positive on arsenic.

I could probably dig up Jerzy's results if they interest you. Any sort of luck I could probably put my hand right on them. That would allow you to assess the relevance or otherwise of occurrence of natural arsenic in the material.

Again---looking forward to seeing it.

Wrote the above before reading the "simultaneous" post.

Reading how and where you took you samples, there is no doubt in my mind that you would find an arsenic positive.

However, from the standpoint of a museum professional, I really do believe that this presence of arsenic should be identified as a potential hazard---mind you, I do not believe for one second that it is, but anything that you can use to jack up your pitifully inadequate rates of pay should be treasured. Don`t fail to tell your union what you found. Make sure that when a workplace agreement is on the table that any handling of keris or other SE Asian edged weapons draws a hazchem subsidy---or something similar.
Professionals deserve decent pay for what they do, and if there is a hazard involved---be it ever so slight---it should be used appropriately.

Georgia

29th September 2006, 08:17 AM

I could probably dig up Jerzy's results if they interest you. Any sort of luck I could probably put my hand right on them. That would allow you to assess the relevance or otherwise of occurrence of natural arsenic in the material.

That'd be great if you could, I'd be very interested.

David

29th September 2006, 01:57 PM

Thanks for you response and clarification of your methods Georgia. I agree with both you and Alan that museum workers should certainly be made aware of these findings. Considering the condition of these blades prudence would be wise even if any danger is unlikely. I am glad these clarification have been made because your original statement that "it (arsenic) is certainly present in sufficient amounts to cause adverse health effects" seemed unnecessarily alarmist to this group of collectors who in all probability maintain their collections in much better condition than the museum seems to do. You would find no surface residue on the keris in my collection (and certainly no white powdery substance) and though there may be something hiding in the crevaces of the gonjo it seems highly unlikely that i am at risk of ingesting any of the substance or even absorbing it through the skin. I hope you understand that i also am not discounting your research which is indeed very interesting and valuable, but i am trying to put this information into perspective for the audience you are addressing on this forum. Of course, if there are any paranoid collectors out there who want to now get rid of their collection cheap i would be happy to help them out. ;) I look foward to hearing more about your findings when your project is completed. :)

RobT

1st October 2006, 04:47 AM

Hi All,
Stone's description of warding with a sheath or keris is exactly the same technique that is used with Okinawan sai. The sai, which resemble European poingards save that they have no edge or point, are used in pairs. The large quillons serve to catch sword blades and also to revolve the weapon so that it can be held either blade or pommel out. If held pommel out, the blade acts as a guard for the forearm (the blade should be long enough to extend about 1" past the elbow) and the pommel can be used to strike a blow. Stone, on pg 422 item #17, lists a mace (that is exactly like an Okinawan sai) as Chinese. If this attribution is correct, then perhaps the Indonesian method that Stone reported has its roots in some form of Chinese martial arts.
On a completely different note: Is there any possibility that amok has its roots in the Hindu weapon classification of mukta/amukta?
Sincerely,
RobT

zartane

6th October 2006, 09:56 AM

salam to all,

I'm not an expert on types of keris, etc but i hv been activley involved in martial arts for the past ten years especially silats from peninsular malaysia and a few from javanese style .. Had to give my thoughts of view regarding the main topic or as i might say 'questions' raised by Mr. Bram because the replies had been "off-topic".. My answers will be only based on what my guru's taught me and none of my own opinion so, don't ask me for historical facts..

Mr. Bram's brought up the fact that keris is not used for fighting or combat in Jawa but silats in Malaysia, it is the main weapon taught for fighting. He then asked for explaination on when did the keris in Jawa ceased to be used in normal fighting? >> here goes>> my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

Second question, about the hilt.. both ways (Malay and Javanese) of attaching the hilt to the keris is different, one is horizontal and the other paralel with the blade. It is true that the Malay way of holding the hilt (like holding a gun) will hold the blade in a position that would readily be able to slip between ribs but bare in mind that you cannot hold the hilt the same way for Javanese kerises!! There is a different way of holding the Javanese keris which will also make the blade parallel and readily able to slip between ribs.. i have two pictures for example and as you can see, both blades are positioned the same, just the hand gripping way is different..

I could see that someone has already showed a picture of gripping the Javanese keris but seems quiet wrong to me as it not firm and your grip has to be straight along with your arm, just like punching, or you can't even thrust a banana tree with that style of gripping. AND you would be easily disarmed just by being kicked on the wrist..

Some replies also questioned that the Javanese slip their keris at the back, while malays slip it on their front. It is not the question of which one is practically logic for fast drawing their weapon or sticking the keris at the front is easier to pull out in a combat, but there is a greater reason to that!
Most of the pencak in Javanese Style prefer very low stance pattern (kuda-kuda). While you are performing bunga or langkah in a very low manner, it is impossible to slip a keris into your belt in front of your body (especially long ones!!) that is why they slip it at the back.. Unlike silat styles from Malaysia which uses higher stance in their silat form, it is still comfortable to slip the keris infront..

Not to mention, holding the keris Javanese style is more efficient to make a thrust from a lower position than holding a malay keris the malay way. And vice versa, it is more devastating to hold a malay keris the malay way if using a higher stance than using a Javanese keris. That is why it is important to choose the right type of keris with the right type of "lok" when fighting your opponent.

And there is a post that mentioned holding a keris looks familiar as holding a "sai" or "tcabang" in Indonesia or "tekpi" in malaysia.. believe me, they are not the same, as i also master the movement of "sai's"..

Thanks.

David

6th October 2006, 02:11 PM

Thanks for your post Zartane. Can't say that i can find enough credence in your idea (related from your teacher) that the Javanese stopped using the keris as a weapon due to Tameng Sari's loss to Hang Tuah. First of all, while i am sure that these were truly historical characters, i believe that their "history" is more legend than truth. Sort of like saying George Washington gave up using the hatchet after his embarassing encounter with the cherry tree. ;) Secondly, if this line of thinking was the case it would seem odd to me that the Javanese would continue to so greatly venerate the weapon that failed their greatest hero.
I see very little difference with the photo example you present as to how to hold a Javanese keris with the one Alan Maisey presented. You show a side view, Alan shows top and bottom. Yes, Alan shows a bend in the wrist which you probably would not have during use, but what he was trying to show us was the grip itself which is essentially the same as yours.I suspect that Alan may have been photographing his own hand here which would make it a little difficult to keep the wrist in proper position. Either way, his grip seems no less firm than your example.

Rick

6th October 2006, 03:20 PM

Continuing along these lines of grip ; I would be very interested in seeing the way in which the keris scabbard would be gripped for use as a left hand parrying device .

BluErf

6th October 2006, 03:21 PM

Sort of like saying George Washington gave up using the hatchet after his embarassing encounter with the cherry tree. ;)

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy?? :confused: :)

Alam Shah

6th October 2006, 03:28 PM

Here's another variation of holding a huge Sumatran keris. :D
Note: Left-hander... right hand holding the camera. ;)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albuq06/DSCF5992.sized.jpg

Personal preferred holding technique... :confused:

Alam Shah

6th October 2006, 03:52 PM

Continuing along these lines of grip ; I would be very interested in seeing the way in which the keris scabbard would be gripped for use as a left hand parrying device .In some Peninsular Malay silat form, the scabbard (sarung) serves a few purpose. To parry as well as a secondary assault tool. It is held with the scabbard facing the opponent, 2 fingers and the thumb holding the shaft (batang) of the scabbard, while the other 2 fingers support the cross-piece (sampir) from behind. In a single block, the sampir tips can be used to target the softer part of the opponent or used as a distraction while the blade in the other hand, move into a striking position. :confused:

David

6th October 2006, 05:49 PM

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy?? :confused: :)

Yes, Kai Wee, that would be an affirmative. That doesn't mean that i am suggesting that this famous duel didn't take place. It may have, it may not have. It may have happened, but not quite as it is told today. Such is the stuff of legends. :) My point is that it would be difficult to base any academic conclusion on it.

Rick

6th October 2006, 07:26 PM

Hey, wasn't this G.W. and the cherry tree tale a fallacy?? :confused: :)

Maybe ....... but he did throw a silver dollar across the Potomac river ; I swear !! ;) :D

David

6th October 2006, 07:59 PM

Maybe ....... but he did throw a silver dollar across the Potomac river ; I swear !! ;) :D

You are absolutely correct Rick....in fact, i happen to own that very same silver dollar. It was passed down to me from my great-great-great-great-great-great gandpappy Jebediah Bulldungy, who just happened to be fishing the far bank at that time and lost his left eye when the coin hit him smack in the face! :eek:
I was going to put it up on eBay, but if any of my fellow forumite would like a good deal..... ;) :rolleyes:

David

7th October 2006, 04:28 PM

my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves..

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris. :)

A. G. Maisey

9th October 2006, 06:52 AM

No David, I did not take that photo myself, my wife took it, and the bend in the wrist is to allow her get the pic.

I did these pics three times. I tried to get one of my sons who has Asian type hands, to hold the keris while I took the photo, but although it looked OK when I took the pics, when I got home and processed it, he had not got it quite right so I held the keris while my wife took the pics.

The previously published photos of this grip had one of my sons holding it, and it looks a lot more convincing.

Donn Draeger spent his life researching the way in which South East Asian weapons were actually used. If anybody was expert on this, then I think that perhaps Donn F. Draeger was that man. His remarks on the way in which a keris was used, when it was still an everyday weapon are interesting. He maintained that because the keris in Jawa had not been used as a common weapon for many, many years, and that since no documentation of methods of use existed, it simply was not possible for somebody living at the present time to truly know how the keris was held and used in Jawa when every man carried one as a weapon.

I cannot comment on the practicality or otherwise of the grip that I have shown, for use in silat applications.

I am not a silat practitioner, I have seen demonstrations, and I find it an admirable, athletic, and beautiful form of martial art which seems to require a very high degree of flexibility and extremely fast reflexes.

What I can comment on is the person who taught me this way to hold a keris.

This gentleman was a neighbour in Solo almost 40 years ago. He had worked as a "waste disposal contractor" during the period from the time the Japanese occupied Jawa until into at least the 1950's. His teachers were the sons and grandsons of the overseers and enforcers who were used by the Dutch. He was not a pencak silat teacher, he was a man who used elements of silat, kun tao, and other arts as his professional stock in trade. His objective was to avoid fights. He did not get paid for fighting. He did get paid for getting rid of the waste he been paid to get rid of. His preferred tool of trade was not a keris, but he had used a keris in his work. The way in which he taught me to hold a keris was the way in which he had been taught to hold a keris.

Perhaps the grip that I have shown photos of would be totally useless for pencak silat situations. I do not know, and have no foundation upon which to offer a comment. But this grip was used by one man at least who earnt his living with it, and by ensuring that others did not.

Although I cannot vouch personally for the efectiveness or otherwise of this grip, I can say that it is a very firm grip, because it effectively locks the blade into three pressure points in the hand:- the pinch between forefinger and thumb, and the first joint of the forefinger locked down onto the top of the gonjo.

I would suggest that if this grip is not applicable to use in pencak silat, then the obvious solution is not to use it.

But as to whether it was used in a practical situation or not, well, theoretically bumble bees cannot fly.

Pusaka

11th October 2006, 02:39 PM

Here is a short clip about Pendekar Steven Benitez, the only real western Pendekar to my knowlage http://www.goldenlightstudios.com/glse/glstv_documentary.php?vari1=docu&vari2=menu_blank&vari3=video_tfm

Rick

11th October 2006, 03:15 PM

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack . :confused:

Pusaka

11th October 2006, 03:40 PM

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack . :confused:

Have no idea why, when I click on the link I get video and sound :confused:

Alam Shah

11th October 2006, 04:06 PM

I'm sorry Pusaka ; I get no image; just the soundtrack . :confused:You'll need Adobe or Macromedia Flash Player...
http://www.adobe.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash ;)

Lew

11th October 2006, 04:36 PM

Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me?

Lew

Pusaka

11th October 2006, 04:44 PM

Great video he is really good but I doubt that keris was 500 yrs old it looked more recent to me?

Lew

He did not say how old the keris was, he just said "its old"

When he referred to the Vedic period he was saying that the symbol of the winged horse has its origins in the pri Islamic Vedic period.

Lew

11th October 2006, 04:51 PM

He did not say how old the keris was, he just said "its old"

I think he said it was Bali or Lombak and it was from when the Indians ruled that area but I could be wrong? The blade looks to be Sulwasi or Bugis to me too small to be Bali?

Lew

David

11th October 2006, 05:22 PM

Well, Steve seems like a nice chap and he sure does move pretty well, but i think it's fair to say that he doesn't know squat about keris. Firstly this keris, or at least the dress that he comments on is a very typical form of Madurese keris, not Lombak or Bali. He moves the blade quickly so it is hard to see, but it doesn't look all that impressive and my feeling is that this is a piece "made for travelers" so i doubt this would be a piece with much life energy in it. Hard to say without handling it though. The winged horse is a symbol rather specific to Madurese form an is post-Hindu as far as i know. Infact it may well be a European influenced symbol as the Madurese incorporated quite a bit of that into there dress designs.
Also i dare say that for someone who has traveled so much in Indonesian he hardly treats the blade in the manner i would expect to see from a person claiming to be knowledgable of the tradition. None of this, of course, necessarily reflects on his knowledge or abilities in silat. :)

Pusaka

11th October 2006, 05:42 PM

Rick

11th October 2006, 06:59 PM

So by this logic every new keris made by a talented panday is not a 'Real Keris' !?!
I don't mean to insult Pusaka but I think this viewpoint is sort of silly .

I'm sure the fellow is a very talented martial artist and blindfolded combat is not unique to this gentleman's repertoire ; I've seen others fight blindfolded.

I take exception with his very narrow view of what is and is not a real keris.
If this works for you; fine , but I must ask how; in future discussions here when pictures of kerises are presented; are you going to know if they're real kerises ?

David

11th October 2006, 08:39 PM

I thought his demonstration of fighting with his eyes covered showed that he has sufficient sensitivity to know if the blade is alive or not.
His definition of a keris being “real” or not is quite simplistic but I like it. Basically if it is “alive” it is real and if it is “dead” it is not a real keris.

Sorry Pusaka, but i am not convinced that one thing is necessarily indicative of the other. Like i said, he is a good fighter, but he knows very little about keris. That sheath contains no Vedic symbols and is definitely from Madura, not Lombak or Bali. I tried to get a better look with freeze-frame and it does appear that it might be a pamored blade (sorely in need of re-staining), though it doesn't appear to be one crafted with any particular skill and is most probably village work. It is small and may be a patrem or possibily a dukkun's keris as he suggests, but it is questionable that even if this keris once were "alive" when it was maintained that it would still be so in it's current state. Many "real" keris no longer hold spiritual energy as that energy was maintained by the line of ownership and the care and feeding of that energy by that family line. Does that mean that an empu made keris that has sat in a Dutch museum since the 17th or 18th century and lost it's energy due to lack of care and feeding is no longer a "real" keris.

Pusaka

11th October 2006, 10:33 PM

This is a difficult one to answer, a lot depends on personal belief as to what a keris is. If a modern keris was made with all the care, attention and preparation as in older times then I would not hesitate to call it a “real” keris. If on the other hand a keris was rapidly beaten out, artificially aged and clearly made with little attention or skill I would have no hesitation in calling it a piece of junk and I have to say personally I would not regard it as a real keris. Ebay is full of such keris.
I am aware that there is a difference between a keris made for everyday use and a keris pusaka. The icing on the cake is if the blade is alive or not, if it has undergone the correct and complete process then it is. If it has not then it is just a piece of metal.
How long does it take a keris to die I cant answer, how long does it take a magnet to completely lose its magnetism? It will get weaker over time but it will probably always contain some residual magnetism, “life”.
I think of a real keris blade as a vassal suitably constructed so that it can be empowered and retain that for some period of time. It requires two things, firstly it must be physically constructed in the correct manner from suitable materials and secondly it must have undergone a meditative preparation.
A keris that was just hammered out with little care is not in the position to be empowered and neither can it ever become “alive”
On the other hand a keris which was constructed in the correct manner and with the correct care, even if its life has faded over time due to neglect it is in the position where it could be given new life by a good owner.
Hope I haven’t overdone it with the mystical talk about dead and alive keris :D but this is just my personal thoughts about keris, and “real” keris.

So finally my definition of a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

And a fake keris, a blade made in such a manner that it never was nor never will be a suitable vassal to be empowered.

Rick

11th October 2006, 11:05 PM

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Also I'd like to bring up the concept that a comissioned keris (old or new) was made to suit the person who comissioned it; the pamor, prayers, etc. directed for that one individual. Now when this piece comes into the market and is bought by another person how can it still be living and incorporate whatever traits were imbued in it for a total stranger ?

This concept puzzles me . :confused:

Lew

12th October 2006, 01:27 AM

I always thought that the pamor and prayers used in making the keris would be passed on the the next person who owned it that is of course that they have respect fo the keris in the traditional sense? I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma. So if a keris is made by a skilled panday or smith it should always carry some type of spirit in it especially from the maker who has put part of himself in the keris.

Lew

David

12th October 2006, 03:34 AM

Well, we seem to be getting off on a tangent here since this thread is supposed to be about fighting with keris, using the keris as a physical weapon, not as a spiritual tool. But here we are. :) You don't need to apologize for the mystical talk Pusaka, it's pretty difficult not to talk about it when it comes to keris.
As for what's alive or not, IMHO, it is clear to me that EVERYTHING is alive. This is not just a mystical philosophy, it is a scientific fact. EVERYTHING is alive on the sub-atomic level. I believe the sub-atomic is the conduit for the mystical/magical current. A trained "practitioner" can embue purpose and access power from a safety pin if necessary. Keris have been constructed for many different purposes over the centuries. Certainly the level of skill and attention, energy and prayers directed into that construction has helped to open these tools as a conduit for whatever purpose they were constructed for. But untimately it is my believe that in the end power resides in the practitioner, not the object. This doesn't mean that a properly constructed keris, embued with the right prayers and energy in accordance with that practitioners beliefs won't make a better conduit for the work that practitioner does with the keris.
If we are collecting old keris it seems somewhat unreasonable to think that a blade specially prepared to do a particular mystical/magickal working for a particular person from a foreign culture 2, 3 or 4 centuries ago will automatic deliver the same mystical/magickal energy to me. Likewise a keris pusaka that carries the energy of family power and lineage is not going to transfer the power and energy of that family's bloodline to me simply because it has somehow come into my hands. I must make my own pusaka if that is my purpose. For these reasons i can see why a silat practitioner who does not have bloodline ties to Indonesian culture might prefer to have a new keris to an old one, as Lew suggests, but if i were an Indonesian practitioner i think i would be quite happy with my father's keris. :)

zartane

12th October 2006, 08:37 AM

I do have a question in regards to this legend. In my internet research (which can, of course be limited) the only reference i have been able to locate of Taming Sari being a person who dueled with Hang Tuah is fro a silat website:
http://www.silat.f9.co.uk/hangtuahintro.htm
There are, however, countless references to Taming Sari as being Hang Tuah's keris (the stories i am more familar with). Is this a legitimate variation on the legends or merely a modern silat misreading of the legends?
Again, this is the problem with using these legends to reach any academic conclusions on the actual origins and uses of the keris. :)

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

VVV

12th October 2006, 08:57 AM

I also have heard stories that practioners prefer new keris due to the chance that an old one could carry bad or an evil aura or karma.

Lew

This is also my experience. When Grand Tuhon Gaje started to visit me in Stockholm about 10 years ago he went through my old blades and sensed the vibes of them. Which ones who had killed somebody and those few that had not. He also told me that he didn't like old blades because of the bad forces that could live in them based on what they have been part of. The only antique blade that he used himself was the swords of his maternal grandfather. Otherwise he always preferred new blades made specifically for him. But at least my old sword mounted Lading from Sumba seems to be OK because that's the one he picked for the cover picture of the Swedish MA magazine Fighter. :)
I never asked my Silat/Kuntao teacher about this but he always also use new blades.

Michael

Pusaka

12th October 2006, 11:07 AM

In most cases a new blade is better (because it is clean) as long as you can get someone to make a suitable blade to a reasonable standard. Today this however is becoming difficult because most won’t spend the time and will just hammer out the blade as fast as possible so that they can get started with the next order.
How can you make a blade come alive? Well there is a method but as lots of things in silat they don’t talk about it openly. Not only is there a method of making a blade come alive but there is also a method of erasing previous energies in the blade. When given a old keris it is standard practice to first clean it but its not just a physical cleaning.
In any case a blade that was used to kill and owned by a bad owner is seen as a dirty thing both physically and energetically.
A keris will setup an atmosphere around it which will effect all that encounter it whether it was made for them or not. A good keris will have positive effects whilst a bad keris will have negative effects.
If a person does not have the ability to sense that a keris is bad or good then he is advised to put it under his pillow and if it results in bad dreams the owner will not keep it no matter how beautiful the blade is.

Pusaka

12th October 2006, 12:14 PM

You showed a nice modern keris that you own Pusaka; in your eyes is it real or not ?
If it is real then how did you make it so ?

Yes that keris is mine. What do I mean by that? I have other keris hanging on my wall but I only have one keris which I consider my personal keris. You can only ever have one keris which you make your own, not a whole wall full. I commissioned it and it was made for me but when I received it it was real in the sense that it was made to a suitable physical standard however it will only becomes “alive” if I make it mine.

As I said previously:

a “real” keris is a blade suitably constructed so that either it has life or has the potential to be given life due to it possessing correct physical construction.

Hopefully I have by now totally confused everyone :D

David

12th October 2006, 06:03 PM

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Zartane, don't get me wrong, i enjoy a good story as well...just for the pleasure of it. :) However, when you first brought this story to this thread you clearly were using it as a possible reason for a historical reality and not telling it as one of the many legends based on this story, but as a truth:
"my answer would be, the Javanese lost their trust in keris as a main weapon for fighting since Majapahit's warrior named Tameng Sari died in a duel with Hang Tuah from Malacca. Taming Sari was so great at that time in the Jawa land, thus the defeat of Taming Sari (which was stabbed by his own keris) made a big impact for the whole of indonesia and ceased their trust on keris as a responsible weapon to defend themselves.."

That was my only issue, that stories like these should not be used to make a case for academic questions. I am still quite interested in this legend and i am still curious if your telling of the legend is particular to silat teachings since i have not hear this telling from any other source. :)

Kiai Carita

24th October 2006, 05:22 PM

well, here goes the legend.. actually Taming Sari is a name of the great majapahit's warrior. And the keris itself has a long story to it.. to make it short, this keris had a curse on it " whom ever declaire that the keris is thier's (the owner), the blade will kill it's owner".. so when hang tuah could not defeat taming sari in the duel, he asked taming sari who's keris he is using.. and fortunateley, taming sari replied "it's mine" thus taming sari made a wrong move and he was killed by his own blade. then, hang tuah brought the keris back with him.

when hang tuah came back to melaka, each and every time someone asked who's keris is it? he would reply "it's tameng sari's keris" which then led to the name taming sari as a keris..

i know this is just a legend or myth as you all may say it, but i'm just telling this story just for the pleasure of sharing it.. not for the sake of stating it as a fact! so, there is no need to question my post as un"academic"..

Interesting legend... in Jawa itself there is no story of either a man or a keris called Taming Sari, and also the power in Jawa at the time of Malaka would have been Demak rather than Majapahit, would it not?

Notes from the Xeng He armada and olso from early Portugese adventurers tell about keris and tombak fighting, so it might be safe to assume that at that time keris fighting was normal. Wayang wong in Sriwedari also depicts keris fighting so there must have been some form of it some time. Just at the end of Demak, Arya Penangsang famousely kills himself by mistake with his own keris and Sutawijaya, founder of Mataram, is said to be so impressed by the valour of his enemy who had hisa stomach cut open and his intestines hanging over his keris that he started a tradition to put wreaths of jasmine on the handle of a groom's keris.

Sultan Agung gave kinatah Gajah-Singa to commemorate the defeat of the Bupati Pati by his forces and is also credited with creating the character Gendring Caluring (Buta Cakil) in wayang kulit - who inevitably gets killed by his own keris at the hands of Arjuna.

I have a feeling that this is the time we should look at to find why and when the Jawa keris stopped being imagined to be used in fighting. Sultan Agung then went on to attempt to sack Batavia but lost twice.

Pak Boedhi mentioned back, that in Yogyakarta kraton most keris are fixed to the handle using resin (dijabung) ... and also the small keris handle fits more snugly in the hand if one holds the keris between the thumb and forefinger, pinching the blumbangan. True, the larger Surakarta ukiran still alows this grip but it doesn't feel as right. With this grip I feel the keris is live and it does fit in to silat moves easily like a long feather of a crane or eagle.

Thank you all for the discussion and to those of you who are Muslim, selamat hari raya Idul Fitri, mohon ma'af lahir dan batin.

Bram.