Schiavona pommel

[urbanspaceman]

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
245457

[Jim McDougall]

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
245457

This is a great question!! and always exciting to see there are still those of us who ask these things! It seems too many collectors dont think these things worth noticing :(

The schiavona history is far much more complex and evolutionary than typically realized, and that it was not just used in Venice. This type of hilt with variation of complexity in the trellis style basket guard evolved in the early 17th century.

The example shown from the Ferguson clan of Scotland has a blade dated 1611, clearly a heirloom blade outside the typical period of the hilt. Note the ring, which is to attach the trellis guard to the pommel. The curl at the terminal of the basket near the pommel is a design feature primarily and havent seen one used to hold a ring, interesting idea though.

The connecting ring was not a consistent feature as far as I know, but the idea that it may have become a vestigial thing is interesting.

[ulfberth]

I came across this image and thought I would post it in relation to the eternal question: "is the hole in the pommel meant to attach to the hook on the guard" despite many examples having no hole. Well, this should put a full-stop to that exercise. Of course we now need to know what it was for: a sword knot perhaps?
Also, note the leather wrap around the upper ricasso.
245457
The hole in the pommel is indeed intended to attach the guard hook , not all pommels have this hole.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

[urbanspaceman]

In regard to the leather wrap: it allows fingers to wrap comfortably around the upper ricasso (no thumb ring), but it may well have been a rain-guard that has been foreshortened.
Any suggestions?

[ulfberth]

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

[urbanspaceman]

The hilt I am referring to is image 245457 in post #1

[werecow]

The description also notes that the guard is somewhat loose. Multiple anomalies... I wonder if there's shenanigans. The provenance seems OK though.

in this case it probably means the pommel has been replaced at some point in time

But presumably the hole was used for something... Isn't it in the wrong place for the ring attaching it to the guard?

[M ELEY]

Thank you Keith for that fascinating information concerning the Border Reivers carrying these sword types! I was unaware of that. My grandmother was a 'Young', descended from the Clan Young in SW Scotland, 'Reiver Country'!;)

[urbanspaceman]

My maternal ancestors were Grahams: not a bunch you wanted to tangle with; ask any local Armstrong or Robson - of which there are many. Oddly enough, during my musical career (as a leader of multiple bands) both those clan descendants were often present and invariable proved troublesome.
There is an article by Jeffrey Ross that I will attach regarding the development of baskets. I am assuming it is permitted to disseminate this work; I know I am happy for my Shotley Bridge book to be freely available in pdf form; just ask and it shall be yours, as I have digitally compressed it for screen viewing and emailing.
It seems - Europe wide - all baskets followed progressively on from cruciform hilts. I also understand early baskets over here were regarded as Irish and were, initially, largely asymmetric, rapidly developing into full baskets but also remaining as asymmetrical Mortuary swords. The asymmetric hilts were, obviously, not left behind as the complete basket evolved.
None of this explains that hole in the pommel of my initial image posting though.

[urbanspaceman]

oops, forgot to attach the article
245461

[ulfberth]

It was a fairly common weapon amongst the Border Reivers. In the 15/1600s they were often employed as mercenaries overseas (in Europe) and that is precisely where and when the schiavona shows up.
The thing about the Reivers is that they were outlaws in this country (and in Scotland) and were forced to use whatever they could find that proved suitable; schiavonas must have been great prizes. Jim, that blade is extra special: can you provide a bit more detail please?
Our own Cathey - of HAS - researched and compiled what is almost certainly the definitive work on the schiavona; I recommend it for everyone.
Back to the reason I posted my image:
up till now I have seen a pommel with a hole, and without. When there is a hole it is in the top left corner and sometimes the guard is attached, sometimes not.
What I am seeing here is a hole where no guard fixing could ever occur, so what is it doing there? Is it purely an oddity, or does it indicate that the purpose was other than a fixing to the basket which would explain why it often wasn't.
It is because its composite, the pommel is turned around and belonged to another schiavona. Now it may well be that this pommel was changed during working life or later.
The wide leather over the ricasso these are rain gaurds, the schiavona was not meanth to be used in a pistol pointing finger forward grip like the rapier.
If you have handled several schiavones and tried this grip you will understand what i mean, its obvious.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

But the ring usually attaches to the top corner of the pommel, not the bottom corner, right?

[werecow]

Perhaps this is of interest: Found this very similar example here (https://en.topwar.ru/238317-delo-muzejnye-skjavona-iz-regionalnogo-muzeja.html). With an almost identical pommel, similar guard, and another blade with a waisted ricasso.

Schiavon from the funds of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore.

[urbanspaceman]

As it happens, I have a schiavona with a broad rapier blade and, although this hilt does have a thumb ring, it also feels quite comfortable wrapping a finger over the cross-guard. It would be more comfortable again if it was leather wrapped.
And even more again if it had a wasted ricasso.
Rain-guards are not uncommon though; quite right..
245465
245466 245467
ps
That is the signature of the hilt smith: Grgr

[urbanspaceman]

Apologies, it is GRGUR
You may find longer version of this inscription: "Grgur majstor" - meaning Gregory artisan - indicating local hilt production in Dalmatia.

[ulfberth]

As it happens, I have a schiavona with a broad rapier blade and, although this hilt does have a thumb ring, it also feels quite comfortable wrapping a finger over the cross-guard. It would be more comfortable again if it was leather wrapped.
And even more again if it had a wasted ricasso.
Rain-guards are not uncommon though; quite right..
245465
245466 245467
ps
That is the signature of the hilt smith: Grgr

that is because that schiavona has a typical rapier blade wich is about more 2 cm narow than most schiavona blades. The more schiavonas you have held in your hand the better you can judge them.
I think i need to comment as it is, the schiavona you have with the rapier blade is not the norm, in fact the chances that its composite are high , not absolute but highly probable. Most schiavonas have broader blades almost twice as broad as yours , now if you are making asumptions from an item that is not the norm that is going to lead to conclusions that are not the norm. Exeptions have there place but need to be recognised for what they are and examined from that point of view.

[urbanspaceman]

I absolutely agree it is a composite.
In truth, the schiavona I always wanted featured a very broad double edged blade with a broad fuller or multiple fullers.
Somebody out there may recognize one of these;).
245483
245484
The attraction of my sword blade was that hilt made me suspect that GRGUR was specifically commissioned to hilt that rapier blade and not that it was all simply put together by any random smith with any available suitable parts.
The quality of the blade and the significance of the markings at the ricasso were what made me think that. It has been suggested that those markings refer to the Circle of Twelve, but I haven't been able to figure out what that means. Were they the bodyguard of the Doge (No, not Elon!:))
I'd still rather have my initial specification, but acquiring one in this fine condition did not prove possible at the time when this appeared.

[urbanspaceman]

I've been searching for my perfect schiavona and while this ticks all the boxes, except for museum quality, it has another feature that marks it as exceptional:
245506
It would appear that there is absolutely no fixed rule regarding the hole, its position and/or its use.
245508
fascinating stuff!

[ulfberth]

the use of the hole is to attach the guard , i would not buy a shiavona with an exact blade as in your picture because that is a 19th c blade.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm afraid you have me confused. Which is a 19thC blade?

[ulfberth]

the last schiavona you posted

[urbanspaceman]

the last schiavona you posted

That is a surprise!
I am still learning. Any possibility you could explain what indicates its age? To my inexperienced eye it looks just like the earlier images I posted (one of which was yours, by-the-way).

[Triarii]

My Schiavona has a waisted ricasso with leather cover. Its made me think what the scabbard would butt up against. Likely the chamfered end of the blade just before the waisted section I suppose.

[Jim McDougall]

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.


Images previously posted, blades referenced,
a kaskara with familiar central tri fuller ,blades often termed masri in Sudan, in cases where native smiths, usually Hausa, copied European examples.

[ulfberth]

These two schiavona are IMO with 19th c. German blades which are similar to those used in Sudan on the kaskara broadswords in latter 19th c. It seems these central tri fuller blades were produced in various shops in Solingen, it seems in notable volume, and were unmarked 'blanks', seemingly intended for colonial markets.

One of the things that seem regularly noted in many studies on swords, is that the blades are regarded as 'secondary' elements of identification. That is, as noted in Norman (1980), his focus was on hilt forms, providing scheduled classifications by period and numbered. ...no attention was given to blades as these were often interchanged as required or favored.

There are so many variables in the presence of atypical blades mounted in familiar hilt forms that outside of distinct provenance, speculations abound.

With rapier blades for example, by analogy, in India in cases of familiar sword forms such as the gauntlet sword (pata) and khanda (Hindu basket hilt) there are examples on occasion with rapier blades. These are total anomalies as in Indian swordsmanship there is no use for the thrust, so clearly the use of such blades was purely in accord with European presence.

In the case of schiavona, they were of course used widely outside the sphere of Venice, and traditionally in place over many years. It would stand to reason that various blades might be used unconditionally mounted in old hilts which were valued in heirloom or traditional sense. In Mann(1962, Wallace Coll.) there are many sword forms shown with blades much more recent than the old hilts on which they were mounted.

With the pommels, it seems to me that the holes were as seen, typically for the placement of a ring to hold the guard. While it is tempting to think of them being vestigally in some sort of symbolic sense, it is more likely it is simply the reuse of an old pommel in typical refurbishing circumstances.
Jim has already explained it , as he has shown above the two shiavona's are fitted with 19th c kaskara blades made in Germany " spot on Jim !"
That specific form and shape of blade and cross section was not used in the 16the and 17th c , there were similar looking blades but there are major differences for the experienced collector.
It this particular schiavona that came from my collection but it has a totaly different blade

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Ulfberth. You sent me this photo of 3 swords from your collection.
The center one really took my fancy.
I mistook the kaskara blade for a similar type, but looking closely at your sword, with its full length broad fuller, appears an altogether different beast... and still my favourite.
245599

[ulfberth]

Thank you , that was one of the widest blades ive ever had in a schiavona and still the ballence was great , obviously more suited for cutting and slashing.
The ones fitted with kaskara blades tend to feel to heay and have no ballance that feels like leading to a function, if you could hold them in your hands one after the other the difference in feel of ballance is huge.

[werecow]

Thank you , that was one of the widest blades ive ever had in a schiavona and still the ballence was great , obviously more suited for cutting and slashing.

That one really hits my sweet spot! The lightly decorated type 2 guard with those chiseled lines, the broad, wide fullered blade, the cats head pommel. I drooled a little. :) Currently slowly but steadily gathering funds for something similar when it shows up.

(Although the kilij (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=297787&postcount=38) I bought recently probably delayed me by a bit again, because of course I have no self control to speak of. :D )

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ulfberth. It is interesting to note that conversely many kaskaras ended up mounted with schiavona blades with the hollowed central fuller. The movements of blades through trade networks in the 19th century were complex, and often hard to explain some of the curious cross diffusion.

[dralin23]

The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held.

The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent?
The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story!

Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!

[dralin23]

hello jim,
Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas.
The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made.
The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797...
But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history.

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed.
The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo."
It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century.
It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful.

[urbanspaceman]

That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too.
I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf.
Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

[dralin23]

Hello
As far as I know, the Munsten family was also active in Solingen. I don't know the history of this family exactly, so I can't start a discussion about it.
As far as I know, however, the craftsmen of Shortley Bridge chose a running fox as their mark, which was very different from the running wolf.
If you look at the wolf on the Shiavona blade and compare it with the overview of the Passau wolves, you can clearly see that the blade's mark is similar in shape and style to the mark on the page that deals with the history of the Passau wolf. It's the last 3, and it suggests that the blade could date from the 16th-17th century.
The Solingen blacksmiths, just like the English blacksmiths, probably liked to falsify their names or marks to pretend they came from a specific workshop, for example, "Toledo."
The most famous and longest-lived bladesmith is probably Andrea Ferrera!
He forged many thousands of swords and even changed the spelling of his name from time to time...
I think this flamed blade was made by a good blacksmith from Solingen and that he signed it with the pseudonym "Francesco."

[Interested Party]

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed......It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion..

It looks like a heavy thrusting blade compared to a rapier. I think of it less as a flamed blade and closer to a serrated blade. Against an unarmored opponent or a person in quilted armor, the serrations would have been very nasty as draw or push cuts in a bind. Taking away a faster blades mobility and using this blade's weight to move the other blade would have been advantageous. Not a chopping motion or the type of draw cut that a tulwar uses, more like carving a turkey. I think Keith's Shotley Bridge cutting edge colichemardes may have used this technique as well (I would love to have the chance to feel one of these and will definitely be on the lookout for one). Also grabbing this blade to control it would have been a bad idea. Then there is the heavy pommel and basket guard for striking. It would be a long blade that was dangerous if you closed the distance. Just theories....

[Jim McDougall]

Looking more into these fascinating examples, which are anomalies of the spectrum of schiavona examples.
The first is with the trellis form of the basket consistent with latter 18th c. and embellished with the gold metal fluerets at each square of the basket seeming to correspond with other highly embellished sword hilts of this period. The helmeted figure appears to represent some important military figure with the mustache and what appears to be Austro-German cuirassiers helmet of 18thc.

As discussed the blade seems much earlier and corresponding to the date 1713, with the No. seeming to be either unit designation and the R part of that rather than a spurious regal cypher. This would seem to be a heirloom blade that has been remounted by an officer with a commemorative theme in mind.

The next example is especially intriguing with the undulating flammard blade, which seems highly unusual for these swords, and seem uncommon for typical Solingen trade blades.

The running wolf mark is properly configured for Solingen examples as it is inverted next to the wording adjacent on the blade.

A few notes on the Munstens.....There seem to have been two Peter Munstens, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, p315-16) with one being referred to as the younger, however his dates 1580-1629 are contemporary to the other Peter Munsten, (1552-1628) who was mayor of Soiingen in addition to being a maker, and referred to as 'the elder'.

The first Peter Munsten (the younger) may have been a cadet branch of the family, and used the Madonna and Child as a mark. He went to London and entered the Hounslow enterprise, signing his blades with ME FECIT LONDON, but changed his name to PETER ENGLISH.

Meanwhile, the other Peter Munsten, situated in Solingen, is most likely to have perhaps used the running wolf on some of his blades. There was no specific association or presence of this marking to certain makers in either Solingen nor Passau, where the mark originated.

This was likely a totemic type marking from ancient European times which evolved into a more talismanic/magic/ occult device which eventually evolved past those connotations and became a kind of quality symbol. Solingen, in its clever and astute adoption of renowned names, symbols and phrases used them spuriously on their blades to appeal to markets in the trade networks.

The most commonly used markings, names etc were from the legendary works in Toledo, and the use of Spanish makers names such as Tomas de Aiala, Sebastian Hernandez, Sahagum and others often appear on Solingen blades. Certain Solingen smiths even worked in Toledo, strengthening the associations.

In the case of this schiavona with flammard blade, it is of course from Solingen, maker unknown, but certainly of high quality as these type blades were not randomly produced for trade markets. The name Francesco is simply the Christian name of one of the number of Toledo smiths of 17th century (however in Italian usage) used to imply that status. Toledo did not use the running wolf, nor did any of the Italian states.

Good note on ANDREA FERARA, whose NAME prolifically appeared on countless blades, mostly in Scotland, for well over a century after his death. While there appears to have actually been such a person in Belluno Italy c. 1580, myths and lore have him appearing in Spain and Scotland, which was never the case. The fact that his name linguistically associated with 'good,true iron/steel' gave it the impetus to become more a trademark.
The variations in spellings of these names obviously is due to the literacy and skill of the workers applying them.