Dagger for identification and discussion

[Sajen]

I just won this, in my opinion, very nice and also very old dagger by auction. It's 34 cm long and it's said that the blade is heavy. On one side is the blade marked.
I think that this dagger is very old, 18th century?

Any opinion about the age and exact origin? What do you think, it's a hunting or fighting dagger? Pictures from the mark will follow soon as I have received it.

[M ELEY]

Wow, Sajen! Very nice find! It appears to be an early knife possibly from a hunting trousse set and I'd wager very early, perhaps 1600's? Possibly German, but it could also be early English. Now let's hear what the others have to say!

[Sajen]

Wow, Sajen! Very nice find! It appears to be an early knife possibly from a hunting trousse set and I'd wager very early, perhaps 1600's? Possibly German, but it could also be early English. Now let's hear what the others have to say!

Thank you for your comment! Your age guess surprised me a little bit, my careful guess was 1700's but you may know better. My hope is that someone could recognize the maker mark but we have to wait until I have it in my hands, the auction house only mentioned the mark but didn't provide a picture of it. A friend of mine thinks that it's a fighting dagger instead of a hunting knife.
Like you I also would like to read what others think about this knife! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent example Deflef! and a most curious anomaly.
As Mark has noted, the staghorn grips, three rivets, correspond to the hunting swords/knives of the 16th into 17th century, and beyond as the traditional forms carried forward.

These weapons had evolved from the English ballock knife, Irish skene and Scottish dirk into a hanger type sword which was short bladed and often termed as a knife (the 'hauswehr' of middle ages used by peasantry 15th-16th c).
These larger swords later known as 'hirschfanger' on the Continent were used in the traditional hunt by nobles and those of high station.

By the later 16th into 17th centuries, it had understandably become common to decorate the hilts with stag horn (see illustration, "Hunting Weapons", Howard Blackmore, 1971) as seen here. This of course carried forward into later centuries.

This example posted looks like a hunting sword with notably cut down blade, and most intriguing is the curious raised disc guard, which compellingly suggests such larger guards on main gauche daggers but here obviously in vestigial presence.

This suggests a hunting weapon which may have been cut down into a knife serving both for utility as well as a weapon as required, just as often the case.

The hunting trousse was of course an assembly of knives and implements which accompanied the sword in the hunt, especially as the high status individuals, rather than leaving the full task of field dressing to the huntsman, took to token participation. (Blackmore, op.cit.).

The position of the mark on the blade will hopefully tell us more, but its placement seems consistent with blade marks of 18th c, often early, on hanger type blades.


The illustration from Blackmore (1971) showing similar hilts

A hunting hanger of probably early to mid 18th c. with the more commonly styled hilt and guard with staghorn in both England and the Continent .

An Austrian saber with hirschfanger style hilt with unusually long and heavy yataghan style blade, likely officer and possibly of pandour units of mid 18th century. Regal crest engraved on blade. Officers were typically of noble status and the hunt was of course recognized as a popular theme for swords in many cases accordingly.

[Akanthus]

Nice huntingdagger !! For me it has doubtless central european ,most probably German origin.The birdsheadlike upper end of the grip and the rivets ,which fix the staghorn gripplates are typical patterns of huntigswords of the 17th and early 18th century.I would rather date it around 1700, because a quillon is missing.A halfquillon mostly on the side of the edge of the blade and often ending widened or like a animalshead you often find on elder daggers.In his book " Der Hirschfänger " Seifert writes that the purpose of the little shell on the grip could be a protection for the hand of the carrier or should prevent a sliding of the dagger off the belt.You can find these shells on pictures from Dürer and Brueghel where farmers of the 16th.century are shown.Therefore they are a common components.The tip of the blade of the shown dagger is very pointed.Perhaps the result of frequently sharpening or following a certain purpose of the owner .Normally hunting daggers show a stronger tip.
Good purchase,congratulations !!!

[Sajen]

Thank you Jim and Akanthus! :) Interesting thought that the blade could have been once much longer Jim! That would mean that it was once a so-called Hirschfaenger?
Thank you for giving an approximate age of the dagger Akanthus, great information, thank you very much. And yes, by such an age the blade form will look different now to how it may have looked once. Would be great to see similar examples of hunting daggers of this age. ;)
Great thoughts and information gents, very appreciated!

Regards,
Detlef

[Akanthus]

Here some pictures of hunting knives of the 16th century i took from the great book "Hirschfänger, Zur historischen Entwicklung jagdlicher Seitenwaffen " written by Mr.Westphal.I assume ,that your knife isn't a shortened hunting sword, because quillons are missing and have never been there.

[kronckew]

Hauswehr, utility messer with nagel, also used for fighting in an emergency (in the hof brauhaus). Nice one.


(example Found on Google)

[Akanthus]

Hofbräuhaus.....:D

[M ELEY]

I like hofbrau hauses! :eek::D

[Tordenskiold1721]

I am keeping an open mind to the possibility that this is an accompanying dagger to an 16th century Langes Messer / Kriegsmesser.

[Sajen]

Thank you all for these very interesting thoughts. If I may summarize, the knife's handle shape and construction can be dated to at least the 17th century, possibly even the 16th. One theory is that it's a shortened blade, but I personally doubt that. Hence my previous question about possible comparison pieces. However, while the pieces shown have the same/similar handle shape and construction, the blade shape is different in all of them.
Again, thank you all for your thoughts and knowledge, my own knowledge in this area is very rudimentary.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Just found a very similar example online, sadly without any further description, my search word was "bauernwehr"!

Found the source: https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/21619-bauernwehr/

[urbanspaceman]

Figured I may as well add what I have, although I can assure you all this is from early 1700s - so not really relevant, but I like to contribute what I can. More likely a domestic knife I suspect but... that said, it seems unlikely, having that grip.
245456

[Jim McDougall]

I am keeping an open mind to the possibility that this is an accompanying dagger to an 16th century Langes Messer / Kriegsmesser.

This is a brilliant observation!! and Detlef, these topics are by no means typically in my field of study either....this is all a learning curve, and its amazing having everyone come in with observations.....outstanding!

Apparently the langes meisser (German =long knife) was a relatively short sword most commonly used in civilian sector, which seems rather unusual as described as a 'peasant' weapon. I think there may be more perspective here.

What is interesting is the protrusion from the guard, in this case the disc, is characteristic of the general design characteristics of the langes meisser, and called a 'nagel' (I had not known the term when Wayne mentioned it). This was a guard meant to meet the back of the hand in a fighting circumstance (aligning with Keiths comment just entered).
In my opinion, such weapons could be used in both domestic and defense purposes.
These type weapons from 16th century surely carried well into 17th in these kinds of pairings.

[Sajen]

Yes Jim, I agree, it's a very interesting discussion. After some further investigation I am positive that the knife is a so-called "Bauernwehr" or "Hauswehr" or "Rugger" and that it possibly can be dated back to the middle of the 16th century to the beginning of the 17th century. So Akanthus is correct to date it around 1700. And this in a great condition, the most examples I've seen online are excavation examples.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hauswehr, utility messer with nagel, also used for fighting in an emergency (in the hof brauhaus). Nice one.


(example Found on Google)

Thank you Wayne, I think you are very correct!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Two more antique examples and an old drawing from Albrecht Dürer, "Three farmers in conversation", one farmer wearing a "Bauernwehr".

[Sajen]

I am keeping an open mind to the possibility that this is an accompanying dagger to an 16th century Langes Messer / Kriegsmesser.

Thank you! Your and Wayne's comment points me in the direction of "Bauerwehr", "Hauswehr" and "Rugger" as to which the knife under discussion can be named. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

There are different handle forms, I guess that you can date them by the form but need further research in this direction, but all have the so-called "Nagel" (nail), by my example formed in a small shell disc, which should prevent a slipping down from the hand to the edge. My example is rather short, these knives could be much longer.
See also here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22273&highlight=bauernwehr