My first Nimcha

[Jacenty]

Hello everyone. This is my first post.
I have just bought my first Nimcha.
238583
The sabre has a damaged sheath and handle. The handle is from some kind of horn.
238584
It has an interesting wooden scabbard. Hand-carved.
238589
There is a mark stamped on the blade. This is the only marking on this sabre.
238590
I would ask more experienced collectors for their opinion on this sabre, its originality, age etc.
Should its handle be repaired?
Or fit a new one, in the European style?
Thank you for your replies.

Jacenty

[werecow]

The hilt style (with the relatively thin brass guard and the straight grip with relatively straight projecting relatively symmetric finger hook, and the small projection along the back of the pommel) and in particular the scabbard suggest an Algerian origin. The scabbard is very reminiscent of those on Algerian flyssa. See here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22917) for other examples of such scabbards on flyssa and nimcha.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=168608&stc=1&d=1500224314
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=168801&stc=1&d=1500704322

For comparison here are various styles of nimcha grips, where yours is (to my eyes) closest to the third from the left in overall shape:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=204801&stc=1&d=1610747737

The Zanzibar types on the right of it are more curved and have a bigger finger hook, while the Moroccan ones on the left are also slightly more curved and usually have a steel guard with thicker branches, a thicker cross piece, and no projection along the back.

Personally I would leave the grip as is. I certainly wouldn't replace it. This style is pretty rare so even a damaged grip is interesting.

[Jim McDougall]

As often the case, ethnographic swords are difficult to identify or classify to a specific area, or for that matter, period. The regions along the North Africa coast from Morocco through Algeria are known as the Maghreb collectively.

This is a remarkable example of what I would refer to as a Maghrebi sa'if, however long ago collectors began referring to these type sabers as 'nimcha'.

Your example, as well noted by Werecow has characteristics of varied influences, and 'nimchas' with this type guard system (knuckleguard and downturned quillons) are known from both Morocco and Algeria. Illustrations of a nimcha discussing the blade in Briggs (1965) refer to an Algerian example, unfortunately the overall sword is not shown.

The scabbard seems clearly Algerian, resembling the pierced pattern wood work of the Kabyle flyssa, but may not be original to the sword so the identification must go to the sword itself.

Identifying these weapons regionally typically goes to the hilt, as blades from many sources were used, and often remounted as they changed hands over generations.

The 'nimcha' itself is an Arab weapon, though it found use in Morocco, Algeria and Zanzibar as well as in Arabia of course. This is well shown in Buttin (1933) where these are shown in number, all identified as Arab sa'if.
The peak on the hilt suggests this is early, probably late 18th-early 19th (though of course the style continued as per tradition) and excitedly noting these times along the Maghrebi coast, that of the Barbary corsairs. Naturally we cannot prove that, but it is a fun possibility.

The blade appears European and likely late 18th c. possibly Italian? but cannot identify the poincon in blade center. The flared distal end suggests again a cutlass type use, which concurs with the pirate use notion, again highly speculative.

While the raised ring guard on this example align with 'Zanzibar' classifications, we now know that while these types of 'nimcha' were well known there, they were by no means exclusive to there. I will say that the peaked pommel does seems more prevalent in the Zanzibar types.

Having said all that, please pardon my exuberance in this long winded entry, but this is a remarkable and exciting example !
Please do not alter or over clean, just stabilize to avoid any further deterioration.

These examples attached are my much later examples, and not nearly the stature of yours......the first 'Zanzibar'....next 'Moroccan', and show the more commonly seen types.

[TVV]

For a first nimcha you have done quite well, congratulations. The scabbard is likely a replacement, but the decorations are indeed very similar to those on flyssa scabbards, which suggests a Kabyle reuse at some point. The blade and hilt are older, and I agree with Jim's 18th century guess on them. I wonder if the tip profile was changed as well at some point, as the widening is typically far more dramatic.

I personally quite like your nimcha as an example of a weapon which was used and repurposed over a couple of centuries.

[werecow]

To add, I would suggest checking out the chapter in Eric Claude's book "La Petit Catalogue des Armes Blanches Marocaines et Algériennes" (The Small Catalogue of Moroccan and Algerian Edged Weapons) called "The Algerian Nimcha". A very useful book with lots of nice examples and bilingual descriptions. See awkwardly taken picture below.

[Jacenty]

Thank you for your answers.
I give the dimensions of the sabre:
overall length: 950 mm,
blade dimensions: length. 815 mm, width 32.3 mm, ( at the hilt 41.3 mm), thickness 6.2 mm...,
deflection 2 cm.
The blade has a length like that of a cavalryman.
The head is springy. When held by the hilt (tip) it bends like a spade.
The sabre scabbard is made in a primitive manner. Two woods connected by nails. The wood is stained. At the ends of the scabbard were applied clamps of brass plate.
238605
238606

[Jim McDougall]

The reference from Eric Claude is outstanding, and I cannot believe I have failed to get that book! Teodor and I have had many great discussions on these over many years and his keen specialization on the nimcha have given me a greater understanding of the form(s) through those detailed discussions (see 'search' under nimcha to see these).

As he notes the blade does not have the more dramatic flare typical of the Algerian forms of blade often seen. It seems these types of blades date back to the 16th c. as does the 'nimcha' type hilt ("Arts of the Muslim Knight", Mohammed, #40; Elgood, "Arms & Armor of Arabia). A sultan of Tunis c. 1573 is shown with a nimcha, and one of the oldest examples known is c. 1532, from Oran, Algeria (in Met in N.Y.). ..when this was a haven for Turkish pirates.

The nimcha was used by the Black Guard of the Alawi Sultan of Morocco as well as the Odjak of Algiers, so clearly was in use in its numerous variations from Morocco, Algiers, as far as Tunis.........in Arabia in Yemen, as far as Zanzibar, via the Muscati trade routes to the Omani Sultanate there.

The D-ring form seems mostly aligned with Yemen and Zanzibar...though one example seen has a Star of Solomon on the blade, which suggests one of the Armenian importers in Harar (Ethiopia), reflecting the many sources for blades on these swords.

So this shows the often extant conflict of hilt features, not to mention blades on these.

On a more historical note, these hilts seem to derive from Italian forms of 16th century ("A Late Fifteenth Century Italian Sword" Anthony North, Connousseur, Dec. 1975) with similar guard system.
Also part of this influence comes the familiar 'hand nock' notch at the top of the grip, which seems the almost signature element noticeable in these Arab swords. This feature also transmitted to Spanish colonial sword types via their colonies in Morocco and trade in the Spanish Main.

First example pictured has the widened point mentioned in earlier nimchas, and from those from the Oran example, whose 16th c, form continued in these regions. This example remounted with karabela style hilt from Yemen, 19th c.

The next is a Spanish colonial full length sword with espada ancha type hilt, shell guard as popular in Americas in Spanish trade ports of call in Caribbean, hilt 18th c. (note hand nock of N.African infl.) with 19th c. blade.

Last is another Spanish colonial (these typically S. American) with early 19th c. British blade, hilt with shell guard and serpent quillon popular in eastern Mexico ports (again note hand nock).

[werecow]

It's also worth pointing out that Eric Claude mentions that most of the "Algerian" nimcha blades come from Genoa, but of course there was also the connection with Spain, so perhaps the stamp is a slightly atypical rendering of the half moon mark?

[Jim McDougall]

Very astutely noted Werecow!!! That does look like the Toledo espadero del rey half moon and as copied often placed in blade center (contrary to actual use on Spanish blades). While Solingen of course was well known for spurious use of markings and names from Toledo on their blades, the configuration here seems more like perhaps placed in either Yemeni or other trade blade entrepot.

I have seen many Yemen blades which were typically trade imports, often had spurious markings placed, for example a Milanese mark coupled with a single dentated arc (as in 'Genoa' sickle mark) incongruently.

As previously mentioned, on a 'Zanzibari' type nimcha there was a trade blade (probably Solingen) marked with an MK and star of Solomon surround at the forte. This was the mark of Kedvorkian, one of the many Armenian importers in Harar, Ethiopia. Clearly the blade entered the trade networks ending up likely in Zanzibar, where local artisans hilted it.

Here I would note in post #2, the plate of nimchas with green background...the FAR right example with hilt canted sharply and with three peaked elements......this is a hilt form attributed to Hadhemaut, south Yemen. It is noted as similar to the same type hilt found on the 'billao' weapons of Somalia. Again, the cross influence of form and elements through trade or other interaction.

[TVV]

Jim the Ethiopian blade you show is now in Stu's collection, was in mine before, and I am very certain that it received its current hilt in Yemen. There are Yemeni nimcha types and they are generally cruder than the Zanzibar versions, with the pommel at a 90 degree angle as opposed to the smaller angle on Zanzibar grips.

Back to the sword that started the thread. While this one is without any doubt Algerian, based on the scabbard, I wonder if we should attribute all earlier nimchas with brass guards to Algeria. Either they were not popular in Morocco until later, when the form was adopted with local Moroccan guard versions, or they were popular in a wider area, and not just in Algeria, and we are wrong in trying to classify these on geographic basis instead of chronological one.

[Jacenty]

I found another Nimcha on this forum with a similar seal to the one on my sabre. Perhaps it is just a coincidence?
238636

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for that note Teodor, I recall seeing that most interesting nimcha here on the pages years ago. It was fascinating to me mostly from that remarkable blade which I found associated with the Armenian importer Kevorkian in Harar, Ethiopia.
The simplicity and style of the hilt with the 'D guard' which has become known colloquially in collectors parlance as 'Zanzibar' I totally agree is likely Yemeni, as likely my own example previously posted in this thread.

Here I would note that a great many swords, and blades went from Ethiopia into Yemen primarily to obtain the rhino horn from the hilts. This of course offered a supply of blades, many of which were mounted in San'aa in various hilt forms, and resulting in the presence often of Ge'ez script from Amharic inscriptions on many Arab swords.


The first reference to these ring guard hilts as Zanzibari was in "Les Armes Blanches du Monde Islamique" , Alain Jacob, 1985. When I acquired my example years ago from Oriental Arms, Artzi explained to me that it was one of about 40 he got from an old armory in Yemen, and that these swords had come from Zanzibar. I have forgotten how long ago he noted this acquisition happened but I presume it may have been in the 80s.

It was interesting in researching these, one of the key references commonly used was Charles Buttin's 1933 catalogue, where these types were included with a large grouping of examples of the North African types, and all are listed only as Arab sa'if. There is no specific classification to Zanzibar, Morocco, Algeria or other....and as asserted by Dominique Buttin (pers. cov. 2004)...these are all simply Arab sa'if.

I agree that the Algerian attributions are likely correct, and the association with the Kabyle type wood scabbard is compelling evidence. Here I would note that George C. Stone in his venerable compendium (1934) referred to the 'nimcha' as Algerian. It has been suggested that the diffusion of the form into Morocco was probably via the Sunni following of the Maliki School of Islam.

The preferences of local artisans for materials used in mounting of the various numbers of blades circulating through mostly trade networks seems of course inconsistent and probably relied on many factors. It does not seem there is any viable axiom to classify these 'nimcha' forms to region or period other than sound provenance or notable propensity of type to area.
That factored in with the long circulation of blades which often ended up in trade circumstances many times over, as well as the fact that these swords were often important as gifts or awards further accounts for diffusion.
"
As always, I like to keep things brief :) , " the history of the nimchas" soon to be a thrilling movie! uh huh.

[Jim McDougall]

I found another Nimcha on this forum with a similar seal to the one on my sabre. Perhaps it is just a coincidence?
238636

More compelling evidence that this is Algerian! It does seem that trade centers in Algeria had workers who indeed used cold stamps which replicated well known marks to suggest blade quality and impress buyers. Again this is seen in Briggs(1965) in his illustration of a nimcha with three groove fullers like this.
He was situated in Algeria when he wrote his work on the blades used in Tuareg swords and daggers, so his focus on blades became one of the key references on the topic.

[werecow]

I found another Nimcha on this forum with a similar seal to the one on my sabre. Perhaps it is just a coincidence?
238636

Interesting! Where did you spot this one? Would be good to cross link these threads. :)

[Jacenty]

This blade designation is in this entry:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24894&highlight=nimcha

[fennec]

HI Jacenty !
What a beautifull PIRATE NIMCHA ... It's pretty rare to find those "boarding" swords, with a large yalman, with an Iflissen scabbard (made around the area of Kabylie in Algeria).
many "algerian" things here can confirm the origin.

- First of all the shape of the sword, realy much appreciated by algerian "corsairs", "pirates", "barbary", or how ever the ancient times called them (I prefer the term "algerian fleet..."). No need to make a history resume to know why those shapes was much more foundable in algeria, than Tunisia or Morocco (except Salé).

- Then the gard. Brass is also very used for that part in algeria, giving generally smaller quillons than moroccan or just steel gards. And of course the shape of it. If we commonly call that a "zanzibar" nimcha guard, those are also very common in algeria.

- The shape of the handle (could detail, but soon as a book ;) ), is typically algerian. Probably has lost its end of the pommel, also that metal (brass?) part running around. All of this is typical from algerian craftsmanship, you can find some similarities with those very beautifull algerian "navy nimcha" like the one on the MET museum, or the ones of admiral De Ruiter, of Tromp (cornelis).

- The handle initially looks wood for me, what is not a bad thing (sometimes covered by luxury parts), in this case it would be some walnut, blackened with natural dies (very hard wood). But you says its horn, wich is much more common on those pieces. Howerver, if you notice any "level" differences on each side (like a "bevel") it could mean that something is missing (many silver and coral parts had been taken off from those pieces during colonisation era to craft jewels for tourists).

- And finally, the scabbard, of course. The only "missing" algerian thing, would be a hole on the pommel...haha

- the mark is a kind of usual "maker marks" put in algeria with oviously an ottoman inspiration. We usually find a circle (or more rarely, shapes like on ottoman swords, like a circle, with some additionnal shape over it), with some arabic writtings in it.

PICTURES :
Here is model close to yours, but less "boarding" shape. Note the "missing" part on the handle. Usually algerian fill it with a textured (repooussé work) silver plate, or something natural like ivory or tortoil shell. For this one the gard is in steel, but still having that "ring" shape.



May I ask you if I could use your picture/sword as an exemple for my book (and mentionning the owner, of course) ?

And if anyone knows the owner of the second ones, yatagan and nimcha with Iflissen scabbard, it would be so amazing !!

PS. Thanks a lot to all who helped me in that project, I'm really becoming to it like a common work, so thanks again for that !!

[fennec]

(Sorry here is the picture)

[werecow]

HI Jacenty !
What a beautifull PIRATE NIMCHA ... It's pretty rare to find those "boarding" swords, with a large yalman, with an Iflissen scabbard (made around the area of Kabylie in Algeria).
many "algerian" things here can confirm the origin.

- First of all the shape of the sword, realy much appreciated by algerian "corsairs", "pirates", "barbary", or how ever the ancient times called them (I prefer the term "algerian fleet..."). No need to make a history resume to know why those shapes was much more foundable in algeria, than Tunisia or Morocco (except Salé).

- Then the gard. Brass is also very used for that part in algeria, giving generally smaller quillons than moroccan or just steel gards. And of course the shape of it. If we commonly call that a "zanzibar" nimcha guard, those are also very common in algeria.

- The shape of the handle (could detail, but soon as a book ;) ), is typically algerian. Probably has lost its end of the pommel, also that metal (brass?) part running around. All of this is typical from algerian craftsmanship, you can find some similarities with those very beautifull algerian "navy nimcha" like the one on the MET museum, or the ones of admiral De Ruiter, of Tromp (cornelis).

- The handle initially looks wood for me, what is not a bad thing (sometimes covered by luxury parts), in this case it would be some walnut, blackened with natural dies (very hard wood). But you says its horn, wich is much more common on those pieces. Howerver, if you notice any "level" differences on each side (like a "bevel") it could mean that something is missing (many silver and coral parts had been taken off from those pieces during colonisation era to craft jewels for tourists).

- And finally, the scabbard, of course. The only "missing" algerian thing, would be a hole on the pommel...haha

- the mark is a kind of usual "maker marks" put in algeria with oviously an ottoman inspiration. We usually find a circle (or more rarely, shapes like on ottoman swords, like a circle, with some additionnal shape over it), with some arabic writtings in it.

PICTURES :
Here is model close to yours, but less "boarding" shape. Note the "missing" part on the handle. Usually algerian fill it with a textured (repooussé work) silver plate, or something natural like ivory or tortoil shell. For this one the gard is in steel, but still having that "ring" shape.



May I ask you if I could use your picture/sword as an exemple for my book (and mentionning the owner, of course) ?

And if anyone knows the owner of the second ones, yatagan and nimcha with Iflissen scabbard, it would be so amazing !!

PS. Thanks a lot to all who helped me in that project, I'm really becoming to it like a common work, so thanks again for that !!

Probably worth pointing out that this rare saber unfortunately got destroyed (https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30135) and it's blade repurposed by its owner.

[fennec]

Probably worth pointing out that this rare saber unfortunately got destroyed (https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30135) and it's blade repurposed by its owner.

"Destroyed".... I mean.... Okay... :confus::confus::confus:
I've heard that story recently, and my algerian hearth bleed... haha but no judgement, everyone is free to use his stuff how he want !
Thanks for the info !

[TVV]

(Sorry here is the picture)

Thank you for posting this sword Khaled. I have always wondered about the origin of this particular type of steel guard with a ring. Your example makes a strong case for an Algerian attribution.

I am attaching the pictures of a sword I have with this type of guard (the blade and hilt are of no help here), followed by an example from the Quai Branly and another from Oriental Arms sold archive.

Regards,
Teodor

[fennec]

Hi Theodor, its a pleasure to enlight as much I can.
You right, it is quite difficult to define a nimcha (especially algerian, that mixed a lot of styles, due to a lot of influence of the algerian fleet at this era, I guess), only by one element, as the blade only, or the hanlde, only, etc... I usually have to combine many points to be sure that a model is algerian, especially for some very "modest" ones, that dont display a lot of particularitis ( a handle shape shared with morocco, a classic guard, a straight sword, no scabbard, etc...).

For yours, not only the guard lead me to an algerian origin, but also the handle. to be "simple", Ive seen those "agressive" shapes of nimcha, only in algeria. Moroccan ones are more "big and round" usually, the handle is not straight, and generally goes larger for some centimeters after the guard. Of course those shapes are also very common in algeria, especially in the ouest (remember that algeria is very big, even in the past, a nimcha close to morocco, should be quite different from one from the east). But those kinds, more "geometric", more agressive, with a "spine" in the pommel (that remember some ones on what I call "boarding algerian nimcha", those ones with an austrian/italian sword, and luxury handles), are very tipical from algeria (and I guess, around Algiers).
Another element for me is the marks on it, those lines running from the guard to the pommel. This is also tipically algerian, and you can even see them on the last picture you shared. For me, this si again like a reminding of those handles with more details, those lines make generally a border between the central part, that could hold some luxury material, and the edges. This is something like a "visual reminding" of this esthethic, in my thought.

Best regards

[TVV]

Fennec, thank you for input. You make a lot of great points. As the biggest country in Africa now, Algeria is so vast that some regional variation is to be expected.

Here is another nimcha, ex Claude, published in his book. The hilt to me looks Moroccan, but Claude classifies it as Algerian.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems there has long been a great deal of confusion on the 'nimcha'.
Setting aside the misnomer of the term itself, the classifications as to where the forms might be attributed has been baffling.

It does seem that the most familiar type without the ring on the guard is typically regarded as Moroccan. However Stone (1934) if I recall, does refer to these as Algerian. It seems that the attribution was based possibly on the broader association with the Malakite rite (if I recall) school of Islam? which transcended Algerian and Moroccan borders of course.

This example of 'ring guard' nimcha I acquired from Artzi about 24 years ago and it was said to be of a batch of 40 varied examples from an armory in Yemen some years before. Then he had noted these had been mounted in Zanzibar and to supply Yemeni forces during the various conflicts years before.
I believe I saw this attribution in the book by Alain Jacob (1985) as well.

In Buttin (1933) of course no such attribution to Zanzibar or specifically to Morocco or Algeria is made, only that these are ARAB sabers.

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?
Though I know that there are nimchas attributable to Zanzibar, this ring guard feature appears to not be a factor.

The last image is a Moroccan sa'if (Moroccan markings at forte).

PS.....anyone know where I might find a copy of Eric Claudes book????

[TVV]

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?
Though I know that there are nimchas attributable to Zanzibar, this ring guard feature appears to not be a factor.



Jim, your example is Yemeni.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, your example is Yemeni.

Thanks Teodor, I did the unthinkable and reread through the thread. You explained this in your post #10.

[fennec]

So if I understand, it appears that my example would be Algerian?



For me too it's from zanzibar. Too "big"/large pommel, I mean, no shape at all for the bottom, this is uncommon in algeria. You can also note that quillon wich is along the blade. It has the typical work from those place (zanzibar, but also oman etc), that display another geometry than algerian ones (usally something more round, like the rosebud etc), that looks like an animal head or I dont know (look the attached picture from a luxurious zanzibar nimcha).
The only point that could make it algerian for me, is the straight quillon covering the hand, and the straight shape of the handle, both points that are rare for zanzibar, but not enough to make it algerian.


PS.....anyone know where I might find a copy of Eric Claudes book????


Have you try to ask him directly (facebook, etc) ? Or may be can I for you ? I dont know if he still have some. I just dont come here very often so sorry by advance

[fennec]

Here is another nimcha, ex Claude, published in his book. The hilt to me looks Moroccan, but Claude classifies it as Algerian.

Hi my friend.
Oh yeah I know it very well, I've even write some lines about it on my book. I've passed some days trying to find a meaning to the "magical square" and other writtings on it, making crosschecks with local algerian believes (well... may be I have to talk about Al Buni once.. or just publish that ****) etc..
So, yeah, for me it is an algerian sword.
First of all the guard, never seen one like that in morocco. Then the sword, more a "navy one", that those straight cavalery used in our neighbours coutry. Of course the writtings on it, that are, for me, also more used in algeria (many many swords wrote that way, or with full sentence.. never or very rarely seen in that "simple way" in morocco).
The hilt also display a pattern (floral shapes with 5 point flowers) that is common in Kabylie, and already used on some other pieces (I'll search exemple as soon as I can). And the shape of the hilt itself, note that little spine on the bottom, and a bit more textured pommel (the part that faces the quillon, its look a bit like the handle of those tourist/mariage little curved flissa). And of course, also the lines on each spine of it, Ive talked about before.
And then the scabbard, also an algerian thing for me... very common in algeria to find those "simple made" scabbard, with just a piece of brass as top and bottom, where morrocan usually make another kind of work, not to say more stylish haha...

[TVV]

When it comes to this type of guard, here is another sword with it and an English hanger blade. That one does look very Moroccan.

[serdar]

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

[TVV]

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

Yes, the style of guard originated on stortas in Italy, and was then copied by corsairs in North Africa.

[serdar]

Thank you on answer TVV.

I was puzzled the first time i saw sword from Perast, becouse of the handle and guard, i didnt know that style of handle and guard that it originated in Italy, i thought it was a put together piece with a nice tale atached to it, like it is a famous saber of Vuk Mandusic in Criatia, husar saber from 18 century it is atributed to a fighter and public hero from 17 century.

[werecow]

Thank you on answer TVV.

I was puzzled the first time i saw sword from Perast, becouse of the handle and guard, i didnt know that style of handle and guard that it originated in Italy, i thought it was a put together piece with a nice tale atached to it, like it is a famous saber of Vuk Mandusic in Criatia, husar saber from 18 century it is atributed to a fighter and public hero from 17 century.

Yeah, this one is quite interesting. Re: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=247847&stc=1&d=1758001156

Are there any closeups of the sword, and particularly the hilt?

[serdar]

Yeah, this one is quite interesting. Re: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=247847&stc=1&d=1758001156

Are there any closeups of the sword, and particularly the hilt?

Yes, online, in museum it is positioned in that way that it is imppsible to take picture of the sword....

And description of the sword, translaten from Croatian.

"That sword belonged to Dragon - Fire Wolf, a descendant of the despotic Branković family, and with the marriage of Katarina Branković, it became the property of the Zrinski family. According to this tradition, Petar Zrinski gave a sword to the people of Peraštan on 05/23/1654. year after the great victory of Peraštan over the Turks.

However, it is also assumed that the sword was made by craftsmen in one of the workshops in the Boka Kotorska area. This is corroborated by the coat of arms of the Rajković family of Perasca on the blade, to which the Stjepanović family also belonged, and according to some sources it belonged to Vukša Stjepanović from Perast."

I saw those style handles across italy museums, not many.

Sword has text on latin, and old church slavic language.

[werecow]

A very cool and interesting sword. I like that it has a straight backsword blade. And a wide one, too. :cool:

I knew that the nimcha/saif hilt style had not changed much since the 17th century from the Michiel de Ruyter one and similar examples, and I had heard about connections with the storta and other Italian sword types, but I was not aware that the hilt was such a 1:1 copy.

[serdar]

Yes it is, very nice sword.
Blade is gorgeous, when i first saw the sword i thought it is a nimcha handle i didnt know italians made those handles, after trip thru the italy and their museums i saw swords with the same hilts that are italian made.
Obviously italians made them and then they were also made elswere.

[gp]

Can you be more specific as to “ Italian” does not tell me anything….
That country started after Garibaldi:cool:


Were it the Venetians who ruled over the waves and Adria for quite some times or are we talking sword makers from other regions or cities?

[TVV]

The very interesting sword from Perast serdar shared with us is Montenegrin under Venetian control. The scabbard is reminiscent of schiavona scabbards.

The hilt is very similar to nimcha hilts and is from approximately the same time as De Ruyter's trophy nimcha and some other nimchas captured by the Spaniards in Oran. It is therefore difficult to tell with an absolute degree of certainty who copied who when it comes to the hilt.

The same hilt style also existed in Southern Arabia, where the Italian maritime republics had no real presence, and the most plausible explanation is an Ottoman connection.

[gp]

The very interesting sword from Perast serdar shared with us is Montenegrin under Venetian control. .

Perast has a most interesting history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perast#:~:text=The%20city%20was%20founded%20by%20t he%20Illyrians%2C%20named,several%20commercial%20a nd%20fishing%20boats%20in%20the%20harbor.

and I can recommend a visit. Quite many excellent sea captains came from the village and although not that big, its museum is most interesting
https://muzejikotor.me/en/home/perast-museum/

[fennec]

When it comes to this type of guard, here is another sword with it and an English hanger blade. That one does look very Moroccan.

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.

Second picture you can see the same blade mount on an algerian sword (typical handle shape, guard quillons a bit shaped like the "algerian" rosebud shape, a possible hole on the pommel that was filled later with that brass flower).

Two others are to illustrate that "flower" decoration scheme I've talked about before, concerning the wooden handle of your navy nimcha (ex Eric). Something very close applied here by koftgari on a flissa dagger. So ovioulsy made in kabyle area (as the scabbards of first picture btw).

[fennec]

Didnt that style with half ring on a side originated from italy? And from them into maroco and algeria?
Below are pictures of italian sword from the end of 14 century with councile of ten marking from private collection, a photo from museum of Florence, and a photo of a sword from Perast, all italian made with tracable and documented history.

AGREED ! That what lead my last searches on the subject, that confirms those theories about an italian origin of the nimcha, for its guard, and maybe also the handle shape by inspiration, mix of cultures etc . because actually, nothing POPED in Italy like that... if venetians ans genoese where precursors in many shapes, styles, for blades and also mountings, it is firt of all because of their inspiration BY OTHER cultures they trade with for centuries... so, everything is a "circle"...).

Then, I dont think the nimcha is a direct inspiration like "oh see, those nice italian renessance sword, lets make some cheapest ones"... But more by use. Let me explain. Personnally, I think that nimchas where firstly navy swords (even the modern "meanings" of the term lead to a short sword). I think those are herited from an era where a LOT OF people from every culture, was sometimes fighting each others, sometimes trading, sometimes even attackng other boats together (remember that the algerian fleet, yes, fleet, not "pirates".. haha, actually the most feared in mediteranean see even before ottoman era /many attacks on spain etc/ was with ottomans, much more various, as many european corsairs with european members on the boat). I think that the nimcha is an "improvisation" of making the "perfect tool" for a new kind of war, in a new battlefield (the war : "the corso", the battlefield : "the see", new warfare : "boarding a boat is more interesting than canonning it.. much more money.. etc). And those points are usually what lead to a new weapon in military history, adding to mixity of cultures, external inspiration, or the willing to find how to "defeat" that "external" opponent, etc etc.
SO, for me, the storta, and other kind of italian/autrian/german sword of beginning of renaissance are clearly an inspiration. And there is a lot of chance that those where themselves inspired by some ottoman swords (kilij, pala), that was also inspired by asia (dao etc) etc etc... (stortas and those kind of swords LIKE THE BLADES that was mount on the most ancient algerian navy nimcha, are from Styrie as everyone knows, just in front of ottoman... a reason why Grace became one of the biggest sword production point).

AS ALGERIANS : remember that Kheireddine Barbarrossa the albanian ottoman, became algerian (lol, yeah, mix of cultures, here it is..) by helping algerians against spanish that was destroying the east after the reconquista. We have some engravings/paintings of that man, his brothers, or the first janissaries that came with him, having italian sword like, like falchions, or even rapier style swords, but giving what could be the firts inspiration for nimchas, like thin quillons guards. Here is a picture to illustrate. I know the sword on the picture could look far from a nimcha, but this is same era, same area, and same kind of spirit (noblesman swords) than many others that gives the exact same guard than a nimcha (like italians stortas for ex).

[fennec]

Concerning this model I cant find something very algerian here...
I mean, close style but not same. Never gems on algerian guards (sometimes a bit of coral on quillon tips, but thats it), and not as much on a handle.
I really dont know whats is that sword, if its actually italian, it could be a good way to understand inspirations... But still have to determind an age, because if it is something that is sometimes hard to accept for us europeans (even for me...) is that algerian (or north afrian, and widely the world..) could also have inspired such models, by the "legend" of algerian pirates at this era throught europe, or even the willing to have a sword like those tooken from algerian shipman, as the one of Tromp, De Ruyter, etc.

[TVV]

Hi mate, and sorry again for the time to answer (dont hesitate to send me an email in case someday you want to ask me something "important", sometimes I'm more reactiv...lol)

Well, it could be, I mean, at first look I would say that, and I was about, but actually I have serious doubt. The only thing that would made it moroccan for me is the origin of the blade, but even those ones where mount on algerian nimcha (trading, or tooken during battles). The hole on the pommel (I know I know, that could look funny as a factor of algerian origin, but this is very reccurent) and the guard lead me more to an algerian one.
Compare your sword to those ones. First picture, that was upper, you see that nimcha, for most of people, this could be a moroccan one, if we had no scabbard. Hopefully it is, and those models are good to proof that those geometry (handle, but also blade shape) was also common in algeria.



When looking back at the sword I showed, if you look at the band under the guard, it has floral motives of a style we find on koummya scabbards, hence my Moroccan attribution.

I also would not rely on a scabbard for attribution, as scabbards were replaced more frequently than hilts.