Can we call them Genoui daggers ?

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,
I recovered these two daggers.
Coming from Maghreb I think, Algeria or Morocco.
The model is based on European bayonets/ old stiletto for the hilt.
Can we call them genoui daggers ??

Nothing terrific, Aluminum ( it seems);and brass for the blade but long 40cm only for the blade ( not just a letter opener ) and well made and pointed.
Handle is made.of horn or other and well worked as well.

[francantolin]

Self addition...:

Recent but interesting story,
the seller told me now that the daggers have been taken back in Europe from Algeria at the beginning of the 60's independance war.when colons leaved the country

[Jim McDougall]

It is generally held that the 'genoui' is a straight bladed 'koumyya' dagger of Algeria which is a variant if the Arab janbiyya from the Maghreb.
The apocryphal story for the term has always been that it derives from the influx of edged weapon blades coming from the state of Genoa in Italy.
The koummya itself is believed to owe its unique hilt design to the Italian cinquedea small sword.

Italian weapons and blades had profound influences not only in colonial regions but throughout Europe for centuries.

Many bayonet blades were found in North African edged weapons, notably the Moroccan s'boula, which later was misidentified as a 'Zanzibar swords' as well as even Amharic in Ethiopia, in both cases from diffusion from Morocco to these locations via trade caravan networks.

There were indeed many weapons taken as souvenirs during events in that 1960s conflict and I knew persons who had indeed acquired swords and other weapons from these times, most of course going to France

[RobT]

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedia (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

[francantolin]

Hello Ian and Jim,
thank you very much for answer and informations .
Do you have an idea of ​​the production period?
I would say around 1920 1950 , what intrigues me is this blade which is particularly thick and well chiseled to be sharp and pointed not just a basic souvenir object. interestingly, I tested with a magnet, the whole dagger and scabbard is non-magnetic / aluminum and copper brass.
it would have been perfect for pass basics metal detectors

[francantolin]

Sorry RobT ....

[Jim McDougall]

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedea (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

Robert, thank you so much for the personal response. You raise interesting points, and having an open approach to investigating the viability of the many apocryphal stories in 'collectors lore' in the best policy. Naturally there is typically little definitive evidence to support most of the subjective views held by various writers and enthusiasts on arms study, so generally held notions must remain technically hypothetical.

In most descriptive reviews of weapons forms, the details of the character of these are noted but seldom are the terms of possible influences mentioned.

My reference to the koummya character was mostly to the 'peacock tail' hilt which is somewhat ubiiquitous in these Maghrebi daggers, however by no means exclusive. In the same way, the cinquedea form (regarding the pommel shape) often have similar shape, therefore the comparison.
As these Italian daggers (of 16th c) had occasion to enter the North African sphere just as blades etc. the influence seems plausible.

I had never heard of the koummya deriving its shape (the hilt of course) having anything to do with these WWII daggers of the third reich, which were themselves modeled after the daggers known as 'Holbein daggers'.
The Holbein daggers were derived from Swiss daggers of the 14th /15th c. known as 'baslers' (hence the baselard deriviation) which became the Swiss dagger of 16thc. These Swiss daggers (which often had the work of artist Hans Holbein on the scabbards) remained in vogue until the baroque period (17th-18th c) .

The regime of the German reich in WWII in thier regalia using classical themes adopted the style of these Swiss (or Holbein) daggers in WWII.

As I believe the koummya hilt form predates WWII, the connection with WWII Germany seems unlikely..................but potential for earlier influence from forms in Europe remain possible......the cinquedea pommel likeness just seems plausible.

1. left, a Moroccan koumyya
2.Italian cinquedea
3. Swiss dagger early 16th c.
4.Swiss basler dagger 14th-15th c
5. 'Holbein' dagger (for artwork typically on scabbards)

[francantolin]

Hello all,

Really interesting,
But can please you make a new post for talk about it

Glad if you have informations about maghreb made bayonet shaped guards or this kind of rounded bone hilt shape

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;289727]It is generally held that the 'genoui' is a straight bladed 'koumyya' dagger of Algeria which is a variant if the Arab janbiyya from the Maghreb....which typically has a curved blade.
The apocryphal story for the term has always been that it derives from the influx of edged weapon blades coming from the state of Genoa in Italy,


My apologies.................in response to your question this is all I can add.
We surely did get off topic to what should have been a simple answer.

[Rick]

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedia (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

Just throwing this into the mix.
I have also read that this might be a possible influence.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/napoleon-on-the-battlefield-at-waterloo-june-18-1815-news-photo/587769229?adppopup=true

[ausjulius]

Jim McDougall,

Previously, I have always heard the story that the koummya hilt takes its shape from Nazi Baselard hilted daggers. Your report that the koummya hilt may be based on the Italian cinquedia is a new one on me. in any event (and because I am prone to look at things from a funny angle), is there any evidence to deny the possibility that the cinquedia (and possibly even the baselard) hilts were derived from North African hilt styles?

Sincerely,
RobT

No, I'd think all these dagger handles in the Mediterranean and near East had handle shoes going back to the bronze age, that phallic shape has been in that region since that time. Look at Roman, Assyrian and such daggers. Basically dicks with blades.

[RobT]

francantolin,
I wouldn’t call your examples genoui because I only use that term for straight bladed koummya that have the characteristic koummya style hilt and sheath (albeit straight), My criteria are only a matter of personal convenience that I use to differentiate the straight blade form from the standard koummya. I don’t know whether they ever were actually called genoui by Moroccans. Since the Genoese exported both conventional koummya blades and straight blades to Morocco, I can’t see why the Moroccans would only call the straight blade version genoui.

Rick,
There is a pommel shape nicknamed chapeau de gendarme that gets its name from that type of hat. According to Waelty, in Morocco, this form is euphoniously named Ait Ouaouzguite after the loose federation of 20 groups settled in the Central Atlas Mountains who wear this type of koummya.

Ausjulius,
I believe you have exactly addressed the point I was trying to make. Whether the story has to do with baselards, cinquedias, cop’s hats, or Nazi daggers, there is a tendency to see influence traveling from Europe to Africa and not the other way around or at least being a two way street. For example, although Flamenco music is played on a the European guitar, the melismatic singing is purely Moroccan in sound. An even better example would be the international phenomenon of the blues which has informed western music from pop to classical. African untempered pentatonic scales bend notes to meet European well tempered eight note scales and chordal harmonies, et voilà.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Tim Simmons]

I had something similar but no scabbard.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3249&highlight=brass+bayonet