Small Preview on the History of Steel Catalog

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi all,

The catalogue is at its final text revision stage.

Here are some print screen pages selected at random by Joyce, the computer designer.
Click on any image for a better look.

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page1_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page1.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page2_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page2.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page3_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/text-page3.jpg)

[Antonio Cejunior]

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page1_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page1.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page2_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page2.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page3_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page3.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page4_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page4.jpg)


http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page5_small.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/double-page5.jpg)

Hope you all enjoy the first glimpse of the 400 pages.

Cheers

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Antonio,

It looks very interesting and a nice layout. The pictures are exceptional good:). All the best of luck.


Jens

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thanks Jens :)
Catalogue will be ready and for sale in about a month's time.
Keep my fingers crossed

[Tim Simmons]

First class, I cannot wait for that moment of ecstasy achieved when tearing off the wrapper on a new book.

[Andrew]

That looks really nice, Antonio! Thanks for the advance peek. :)

[Antonio Cejunior]

First class, I cannot wait for that moment of ecstasy achieved when tearing off the wrapper on a new book.
Thanks Tim :) ,

I'm reviewing the texts. You always find typos and stuff. I will post the link to where to order this 400 pages mamoth :D when it is for sale.

[Mark]

I just came back to my office from a meeting and found a box of catalogues on my desk! :D

Antonio, it is gorgeous! Well worth the wait. Since I could be accused of bias, I'll let others comment more fully.

Thank you again for the opportunity to participate in this project.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Mark,

I am glad you backed up through Shadow of Leaves, and that you liked it. :)
Thank you and everyone who so generously participated. (bowing)

[RhysMichael]

My wife said mine arrived also. I am in MA so it will be a couple of days before I can get home to see it

[ariel]

Still waiting on mine...

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

Where can I buy this catalogue ?

[Andrew]

Got my copy today. Wow! :)

[VANDOO]

I RECEIVED MY CATALOG TODAY AND I AM VERY IMPRESSED IT IS A FIRST RATE PRODUCTION. A PLEASURE TO LOOK AT AND GOOD EXERCIZE LIFTING IT, AS IT IS A VERY LARGE AND HEAVY BOOK. MY CONGRADULATIONS AND THANKS TO ALL WHO DID THE HARD WORK THAT MADE IT POSSIBLE. WAY TO GO MACAU MUSEUM AND ANTONIO THANKS FOR ORGANIZING AND COMING UP WITH THE FUNDS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN :D
I SURE WISH I COULD HAVE MADE IT OVER TO SEE THE ACTUAL EXHIBIT.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Where can I buy this catalogue ?
Well, now that the US sales has closed after two months, and since the Museum does not sell online, here is this link (http://www.555555.com.mo/shopping/index.jsp?lang=E)where you can find the history of steel catalogue.

Check under New Arrivals for this icon.

http://www.555555.com.mo/shopping/images/goods/smallicon/ART-PUN-PT0058.jpg

Eventually you have to register first and then buy it.
Make sure that whatever correspondence you have cs@kongseng.com.mo
use simple and easy to understand English.

The site is owned by one of the companies that own Cable TV here so they are no scammers.

Provide your name, make sure you tell the exact address, city, ZIP code, etc.
I was informed today that many people who have emailed the Museum, were sent to this link as soon as it was up.

Good luck.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi Andrew and Vandoo,

Thanks for the kind words. Thank you all that have cooperated to make the exhibition possible.
Now we are proud that your names are in the catalog :)

[ariel]

Got mine from the Shadow of Leaves. Had time only to glance through the pics: highly professional. That's how to photograph swords!

[drdavid]

If you order this through the Macau site http://www.555555.com.mo/shopping/index.jsp?lang=E , (which is the cs@kongseng.com.mo Antonio mentions above) be a little careful as the checkout process appeared to reject my order three times this evening but I now find I have been billed three times for the book. I dont know why this has happened and I am not suggesting they wont sort the problem out for me (fingers crossed) but watch out. I guess the worst outcome is that I will have two spare copies of the book.
cheers
DrD

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

thanks for all your advice

[Antonio Cejunior]

If you order this through the Macau site http://www.555555.com.mo/shopping/index.jsp?lang=E , (which is the cs@kongseng.com.mo Antonio mentions above) be a little careful as the checkout process appeared to reject my order three times this evening but I now find I have been billed three times for the book.
Have you emailed them? If so, always have to write in very simple English.


I dont know why this has happened and I am not suggesting they wont sort the problem out for me (fingers crossed) but watch out. I guess the worst outcome is that I will have two spare copies of the book.
cheers
DrD
Problem is I advertised that it was available for sale at Shadow of Leaves for quite some time. :shrug:

Have you registered? Is your computer on a broadband? Would it time out?

Don't lay the blame on me :) Best of luck

[Tim Simmons]

I do not have a credit card, so I tried to get this book through a friend. We stopped trying as apparently this site is not secure?

[Antonio Cejunior]

I do not have a credit card, so I tried to get this book through a friend. We stopped trying as apparently this site is not secure?
I will exceptionally ask the Museum staff to contact them and get an answer about security.
So far I know it belongs to a big telecommunications and cable tv group and it sells tickets online to all concerts and events in Macau.

It is the only way you can get the catalog now. The same Museum staff runs two Museums now, one alongside the other.

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/museum-wallpaper_small.jpg

and

http://p.vtourist.com/2873243-Things_To_Do-Concelho_de_Macau.jpg

Macao Hand Over Museum

They are side by side

http://handovermuseum.iacm.gov.mo/images/HANDmain.jpg

Way too much work by a great staff

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

Well i've ordered and the transaction seems to have only gone through once - phew


The only oddity is that i've received e-mail confirmation twice in English first then 1 hour later in Chinese ( order rEf is the same though )


As expected shipping is about twice the price of the catalogue itself - can't wait to get my hands on it though :)

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

I do not have a credit card, so I tried to get this book through a friend. We stopped trying as apparently this site is not secure?


It seems to secure enough . When you click "checkout" the address changes to https:// from http:// and there is the padlock in the bottom Rt hand corner of IE . There are no other recognised security certificates though .

Also when they send you the confirmation e-mail they correctly do not include any of your credit details as email is not secure .

As an extra precaution I have also phoned my credit card agency giving them exact details of the transaction including the amount and have advised them to get back to me with any suspicious activity in europe or the far east or double orders which were not authorised by me .


Despite all this I guess all I can do from now is keep my fingers crossed :D.

[Rick]

I'm sure the Museum will come through for you . :D

Antonio, how many copies were printed ?

[drdavid]

Hi all
I did not mean to give the impression that I thought the site or process was not secure, I am sure it is. Nor am I saying there is a major problem, it is just that the first and second times I tried to go through the checkout a server error message came up, leading me to think the transaction had not gone through when it actually had. If I had checked my email for a confirmation message before trying again I would have realised it had gone through. Antonio I am definitely not blaming anyone but myself for this blunder :o , (I have nothing but gratitute to you for enabling such a fine resource to come into being).
DrD

[Antonio Cejunior]

I'm sure the Museum will come through for you . :D

Antonio, how many copies were printed ?
It isn't easy though, Rick, but I will check with Sara.

I'm not sure. But since it became so big, it won't reach the 1.000 mark.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi all
I did not mean to give the impression that I thought the site or process was not secure, I am sure it is. Nor am I saying there is a major problem, it is just that the first and second times I tried to go through the checkout a server error message came up, leading me to think the transaction had not gone through when it actually had. If I had checked my email for a confirmation message before trying again I would have realised it had gone through. Antonio I am definitely not blaming anyone but myself for this blunder :o , (I have nothing but gratitute to you for enabling such a fine resource to come into being).
DrD
You didn't say it, no worries :) David. And no need to thank me either.
Just gave a helping hand ;)

[Marc]

Got mine today.
It's indeed huge... and wonderful.
Thanks to all involved.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hola Marc :)

Hace muy tiempo que no nos hablamos, hombre :)
Glad that you liked it.

[josh stout]

Yes it is a huge and amazing book. The photos are lovely, and show the folding patterns very well which is hard to do. There is one funny blooper I noticed in the Korean section where it twice mentioned the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1952. "whatchagonado"
Josh

[Marc]

Hola, Antonio.

As you can see, is only a question of finding the right kind of bait :)


By the way, I have to say that dealing with Mike at Shadow of Leaves has been a dream, also.

[Antonio Cejunior]

"whatchagonado"
Josh
Funny because I noticed that in the original that was sent to us had exactly 1952 instead of 1592 as I have online (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/koreanarticle.htm)
But for long, when people pointed out these typos that do happen, I used to remind them that for each typo that passed 100 were spotted and corrected.
:rolleyes:

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hola, Antonio.

As you can see, is only a question of finding the right kind of bait :)


By the way, I have to say that dealing with Mike at Shadow of Leaves has been a dream, also.
Hola Marc,

I see :D
Actually I lost your contacts. When a computer hard disc goes crazy, or when I moved apartments, that was lost :o

Anyways, I think that Michael Crampton from Shadow of Leaves is a most honorable gentleman and everyone was well serviced I am sure.

[josh stout]

I totally understand about the very infrequent typos. I am sorry I mentioned it. The date reversal did not detract at all, but it was slightly amusing. The look of the book overall is quite good. As I said, the photos are works of art in their own right, and show some very special pieces. I am most interested in the Chinese section where the catalogue helps on a subject where there is very little information available in English. Someday I wish there could be information on Chinese swords that approaches the information on Japanese swords, but at the moment, the field of Chinese sword scholarship is simply not mature enough.

There is one particular sword that I would love any more information on that you might be able to locate. The Ming dynasty willow leaf sword (#94) with the horse tooth pattern welding and the nickel silver fittings is one of the most beautiful sabers I have ever seen. Is there any information on its provenance? The medial ridge on the blade and the lobed guard are certainly things found on Ming swords, but I was wondering what other information was used to date it. It appears to be a very important piece.
Thanks for your help,
Josh

[Antonio Cejunior]

I totally understand about the very infrequent typos. I am sorry I mentioned it. The date reversal did not detract at all, but it was slightly amusing. The look of the book overall is quite good. As I said, the photos are works of art in their own right, and show some very special pieces. I am most interested in the Chinese section where the catalogue helps on a subject where there is very little information available in English. Someday I wish there could be information on Chinese swords that approaches the information on Japanese swords, but at the moment, the field of Chinese sword scholarship is simply not mature enough.
Not a problem :) It is very difficult to keep a tri-lingual catalog like this free of typos. The eyes get tired on the revision, and as known, we read by words and so if it type worng instead of wrong we will still read it correctly.
There are many books in Chinese about swords, but not translated to English...
As for the bronze pieces, it is amazing to show the ring knife was already in existance in jade and it went all along through Han. Then I have seen a Song piece which is curved, in a Dao shape
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images1/song-dao.jpg

It is documented in the stone rubbing below

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images1/song-warrior.jpg




There is one particular sword that I would love any more information on that you might be able to locate. The Ming dynasty willow leaf sword (#94) with the horse tooth pattern welding and the nickel silver fittings is one of the most beautiful sabers I have ever seen. Is there any information on its provenance? The medial ridge on the blade and the lobed guard are certainly things found on Ming swords, but I was wondering what other information was used to date it. It appears to be a very important piece.
Thanks for your help,
Josh
Ah yes, it is a sanmai, called jiagang (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/lq-10.jpg)in Mandarin. The horse tooth pattern is what the makers did, and it came from the Zhou Zheng Wu's own Museum collection. Being native to Longquan (http://www.arscives.com/china/longquan.htm)Zhoubelongs to a multi-generation of smiths so it isn't surprising that he has all his contributions handed down and in a condition that is reliable because Long quan was the most important sword and celadon center.

Hope this helps.

[Mark]

The interesting thing about this horse-tooth pattern is that even Zhou Zheng Wu, a master smith, has been unable to duplicate it. He said its one of those mysteries of ancient Chinese swordmaking that he has yet to unravel.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Oh boy, I wish I had such a memory Mark :shrug:
Well, after all it is 5:00 AM.
Thanks :)

[josh stout]

I asked about that saber because while the willow leaf blade with a medial ridge, and the four lobed guard are Ming characteristics, the sword as a whole looks distinctly 19th century. The round pommel and the style of the decorations are all 19th century. This does not detract in any way from the saber's importance as a historical artifact and a work of art, but I don't want people to be mislead by the dating. It is easier for a 19th century piece to have some earlier characteristics than it is for an earlier piece to have stylistic elements that are hundreds of years later. Is it possible the blade had its fittings replaced?
Josh

[Antonio Cejunior]

I asked about that saber because while the willow leaf blade with a medial ridge, and the four lobed guard are Ming characteristics, the sword as a whole looks distinctly 19th century. The round pommel and the style of the decorations are all 19th century. This does not detract in any way from the saber's importance as a historical artifact and a work of art, but I don't want people to be mislead by the dating. It is easier for a 19th century piece to have some earlier characteristics than it is for an earlier piece to have stylistic elements that are hundreds of years later. Is it possible the blade had its fittings replaced?
Josh
Hi Josh,

I believe there is much more out there than whatever typology we know and want to classify and put a sword into. Why would a round pommel and four lobbed would be specific of the Qing Dynasty? Just because someone wrote it is? :)

I won't ever dare to say I am a specialist on Chinese swords, but I guarantee I have seen many in different places and even if I had studied Chinese swords for 10 years I would never classify as a specialist.
The thing is that one of the characteristics of Chinese swords is their emergence and then back to oblivion and again reemerging into use.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images1/bulb-pommel.jpg

Take this example. I would say you have never seen one such sword. Would it be Ming or Qing? ;) This is surely a tricky one.

There were a couple of swords that were just bare blades, while the one you refer to was mounted and fortunately not restored.

We presented it as bare blades such as this one, number 93

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/lq-08_small.jpg

or this one, number 94

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/lq-13_small.jpg


Zhou had the good sense of not restoring anything except the handle of this one at my own request, because of the beautiful pommel, number 99:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/lq-19a_small.jpg


I would therefore doubt that Zhou would have made any restorations.

Furthermore I am sure that very few people know that ancient jian had a tip polish that originated the yokote?

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images1/jian-tip.jpg

An ancient jian tip restored to its former glory.

Cheers :)

[josh stout]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I was not saying that Zhou made a restoration, I am wondering if one had been done sometime in the 19th c. and whether the Ming attribution was for the blade, which could be Ming, or for the whole piece, whose fittings look more 19th century. It is not just the round pommel that is usually but not necessarily 19th century; it is also the way the patterns are cut into the fittings. I freely admit I am a beginner at this, and my experience is only with the more commonly seen things. That is why I am so curious about what appears to me as Qing being labeled Ming. I would like to know what makes it Ming so I can see those characteristics in the future on other pieces. Dating by style is a very uncertain technique but the only one available for many pieces. I need every clue I can get.
Thanks,
Josh

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I was not saying that Zhou made a restoration, I am wondering if one had been done sometime in the 19th c. and whether the Ming attribution was for the blade, which could be Ming, or for the whole piece, whose fittings look more 19th century. It is not just the round pommel that is usually but not necessarily 19th century; it is also the way the patterns are cut into the fittings. I freely admit I am a beginner at this, and my experience is only with the more commonly seen things. That is why I am so curious about what appears to me as Qing being labeled Ming. I would like to know what makes it Ming so I can see those characteristics in the future on other pieces. Dating by style is a very uncertain technique but the only one available for many pieces. I need every clue I can get.
Thanks,
Josh
You're welcome :)
I have no clue if those fittings were added at a later stage. The sword was classified as Ming, so we went with what was on Zhou's own Museum. To my Chinese culture experience, things are often repeated as I said before.
Chinese Song painters imitated Tang masters, Ming artists imitated Song Masters and so forth. We see the same confucianist inspired approach in Japan, in that there are only 5 sword schools until today, so it is very difficult to define when a pattern really appeared but it can suddenly sprout to fashion :).
An example is the fact that Tang Dynasty women

http://www.asianart.com/israel/large/05.jpg

and their headress and clothes with a cut and a ribbon like Josephine would wear many centuries later

http://www.artnet.com/magazine/reviews/stern/Images/stern4-16-3s.jpg

Have definitely influenced Korean national dress and as the ribbon got wider and wider, it gave birth to the Kimono.

This is what makes history and swords so interesting as one can extrapolate into other areas.
Sorry about my rants, but I love this kind of connections. :)

[josh stout]

Absolutely, stylistic anachronisms are common and a source of much interest. One of my favorite areas of study is the connection between Tibetan and Chinese swords. The Tibetan swords maintained the Tang dynasty style blade that early Japanese blades were based on. There are many examples of styles appearing hundreds of years from when they were most common. There is a whole class of usually short jian with iron fittings that are in a Ming style but which may be late nineteenth century. I have not talked with anyone who can definitively tell when they were made. In my own collection I have a Yi minority chopper that looks exactly like the Song dynasty shoudao that are depicted in Thomas Chen's website. I am fairly certain my chopper was made between 1920 and 1950.

One of my great hopes is that the carbon dating techniques being developed for steel will find their way to museums so that we can finally have some definitive dates.

(http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.edu/radiocarbon/GetFileServlet?file=file:///data1/pdf/Radiocarbon/Volume43/Number2A/azu_radiocarbon_v43_n2A_221_227_v.pdf&type=application/pdf)

Josh

[Mark]

Antonio,

Why is it that just the tip was polished? It's a beautiful effect, but seems sort of curious. I don't know if this one is typical, but it also seems to be a "deeper" polish than the lighter polish Zhou described, which is intended to look like clouds (as opposed to moving water, I suppose).

[Andrew]

Mark, I think we're seeing an artifact of the lighting and angle. The way the sword was photographed looks like it highlights the tip, rather than the blade. A slight adjustment would likely blurr the tip and bring the blade polish into focus.

[Mark]

Ah. So its the fact that it has that facetted tip geometry, not that the tip is polished differently from the rest of the blade.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Absolutely, stylistic anachronisms are common and a source of much interest. One of my favorite areas of study is the connection between Tibetan and Chinese swords. The Tibetan swords maintained the Tang dynasty style blade that early Japanese blades were based on. There are many examples of styles appearing hundreds of years from when they were most common. There is a whole class of usually short jian with iron fittings that are in a Ming style but which may be late nineteenth century. I have not talked with anyone who can definitively tell when they were made. In my own collection I have a Yi minority chopper that looks exactly like the Song dynasty shoudao that are depicted in Thomas Chen's website. I am fairly certain my chopper was made between 1920 and 1950.

One of my great hopes is that the carbon dating techniques being developed for steel will find their way to museums so that we can finally have some definitive dates.

(http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.edu/radiocarbon/GetFileServlet?file=file:///data1/pdf/Radiocarbon/Volume43/Number2A/azu_radiocarbon_v43_n2A_221_227_v.pdf&type=application/pdf)

Josh
Hi Josh,

We are in total agreement. :)
I'm totally alien to Tibetan blades so I'm not the right person to ask.
So far I understand that the Silk Road played an important part on the connection, but not necessarily exclusive.
We once thought about the Met in NY for collaboration but the Weapons curator was busy with an exhibition on Tibetan swords. You should check out about it.
;)

[Antonio Cejunior]

Antonio,

Why is it that just the tip was polished? It's a beautiful effect, but seems sort of curious. I don't know if this one is typical, but it also seems to be a "deeper" polish than the lighter polish Zhou described, which is intended to look like clouds (as opposed to moving water, I suppose).
Mark,

It was polished differently from the Chinese traditional way, but there was a change in geometry as you say below. I purposedly focused the tip and my own shadow darkened the lower part of the blade, so Andrew is right.

This would give birth to the so called yokote in the Japanese blade.
In the Jomon period chokuto both from China and Korea (ring pommel swords) were used mainly for stabbing, hence the ring to use the hand for pressing/pushing.

Many people think of Katana just for cutting, forgetting the stabbing purpose.

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

Hi ,

Feedback to say that my wife has phoned me to say that the catalogue from Macau has arrived !

So all seems to be in order re purchasing from the link recommended.


Can't wait to open the packet .


Thanks everyone

[Battara]

I am FREAKED! (and not just a freak :p ). Even my wife was impressed (and her eyes glaze over when you say "sword" :eek: ) . Better than I was expecting - being used to small flimsy exhibition catalogs. Pictures are fantastic and large - a great resource for me. I love it. Your folks should be commended.

Maraming Salamat! :D

[drdavid]

My copy arrived yesterday as well, it is fantastic. I could become a lot stronger carrying it around :D The people at the Macau end sorted out my ordering errors without any fuss at all. Very highly recommended on all fronts.Thanks to everyone involved.
cheers
DrD

[carlos]

:D TODAY HAD ARRIVED MY COPY AND I´N VERY HAPPY!!! :D :D :D
THANKS!!
CARLOS

[Antonio Cejunior]

I am FREAKED! (and not just a freak :p ). Even my wife was impressed (and her eyes glaze over when you say "sword" :eek: ) . Better than I was expecting - being used to small flimsy exhibition catalogs. Pictures are fantastic and large - a great resource for me. I love it. Your folks should be commended.

Maraming Salamat! :D
Magandand Umaga, Kaibigan,

I guess we like to freak out people. The thing is that Macau is a tax paradise and the Chinese are extremely laborious people like all South East Asians, so they work really hard and because there are no taxes, the machinnery is much more affordable and really high tech. Then the paper is Japanese and again it does not suffer taxes, so the end product will cost less than 1/8 of what it normally would cost in Europe or North America.

Well, thanks my friend, but I have in the past refused commendations but you guys who contributed are the guilty ones :)

I'm really glad you all kept in the boat, because what counts is a honest and honorable stance in life and we do appreciate your trust in us at the Museum :)

Maraming Salamat to you too ;)

[Antonio Cejunior]

My copy arrived yesterday as well, it is fantastic. I could become a lot stronger carrying it around :D The people at the Macau end sorted out my ordering errors without any fuss at all. Very highly recommended on all fronts.Thanks to everyone involved.
cheers
DrD
I'm so very happy that things went well.
Macau Post Office is one of the fastest in the world to my knowledge.
It is amazing that the mail men don't know Portuguese at all, but the mail never gets undelivered.

Oh, and Kong Seng, the Mother Company from where you ordered is very reliable. Otherwise the Museum would not use it.

Thank you :)

[Antonio Cejunior]

:D TODAY HAD ARRIVED MY COPY AND I´N VERY HAPPY!!! :D :D :D
THANKS!!
CARLOS
Buenos dias Carlos,

Estoy muy contento de saber que hay llegado bien :)
Did you order from Macau?

Thanks :)

[carlos]

Buenos dias Carlos,

Estoy muy contento de saber que hay llegado bien :)
Did you order from Macau?

Thanks :)
I BOUGHT IT VIA INTERNET, IN SHADOW OF LEAVES.
THANKS AGAIN
CARLOS