New Item in Knobkerrie Collection Ndebele Tribe

[Nutellakinesis]

Purchased this amazing knobkerrie. One of the only examples I could find with circular adornments. This was made by the Ndebele tribe around 1978. A knobkerrie like this is ceremonial and would not be used in combat, but I still love it. Open spots on shelf for more that are coming in

[Tim Simmons]

Very nice. I like this sort of thing. Getting older examples at a price I can afford seems long gone. I had a lovely Ndebele bead work mans belt, I cannot believe I gave it away as a wedding present to a friends wife. I must have been ill or something.

[milandro]

Pardon Me but is this a knobkerrie at all?


I have had a couple of these and I have seen them described as " Talking Sticks"


A search for talking stick Ndebele reveals several of these items for sale on line, all of which seem to have the function of being used in a conference of a group of people to be passed to the speaker, which , to me, doesn't seem to have a common origin with a weapon. But maybe you can clarify it for me.




https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/23/politics/susan-collins-talking-stick-new-day-cnntv/index.html

[Tim Simmons]

A stick of authority or licence or status or grouping ceremonial. General's or leaders tend not to carry real weapons.

[milandro]

exactly so how did the talking stick could have ever evolved from a weapon?

[Tim Simmons]

Because they tend to have a hard knob on the end that you can whack people with even symbolically . Like the Roman vine stick.

[Nutellakinesis]

Pardon Me but is this a knobkerrie at all?


I have had a couple of these and I have seen them described as " Talking Sticks"


A search for talking stick Ndebele reveals several of these items for sale on line, all of which seem to have the function of being used in a conference of a group of people to be passed to the speaker, which , to me, doesn't seem to have a common origin with a weapon. But maybe you can clarify it for me.
.


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/23/politics/susan-collins-talking-stick-new-day-cnntv/index.html

They evolved from common clubs. A knobkerrie is simply a ball (knob or’ knop’ in Afrikaa) and Kerrie which derived from the word from the word from walking stick. There is a very long history of them being used as status symbols. In fact, most of the ornate and decorated knobkerries with wire work likely were never meant to be used in combat.

As far as I am aware, there is no formal distinction of what classifies as a Knobkerrie and a talking stick. Their primary purpose is cultural and ceremonial but still evolved from clubs, which are the most basic form of weaponry.

It’s kind of like owning a decorative sword. Was it meant for combat? No, but it’s still a “sword”.

[David]

I would suggest moving this one to Miscellaneous. It certainly is not a weapon.
https://www.etsy.com/market/zulu_beaded_stick

[Ian]

Hi David,

The etsy site you referenced does describe these as modern forms of the knobkerrie. We do allow decorative modern examples of other weapons here, even when they are not functional. Yemeni dancing swords come to mind, as well as a lot of traditional/ritual African items we allowed here (even when purely decorative or tourist items).

Perhaps Nutellakinesis can explain why he thinks this one is so unusual.

[Rick]

I didn't know Etsy was a reference site.
I agree with the other members that this item belongs in miscellania Ian.

[Ian]

Hi Rick.

I don't consider etsy a "reference site." I used "referenced" in my last post in the sense of "referred to," rather than suggesting it had an authoritative status.

However, since you and David think it should be moved, over it goes to Miscellania.

[Nutellakinesis]

I would suggest moving this one to Miscellaneous. It certainly is not a weapon.
https://www.etsy.com/market/zulu_beaded_stick

If I were being pedantic I could argue that the only difference between a decorative club and one that is used in combat is the owner’s willingness to use it. In the same note I wouldn’t argue that a lamp is a weapon despite its potential as a bunt force object. My distinction is because it evolved FROM a weapon so there’s a vein there.

On a different note, this club is different than many of the ones you’d see on Etsy. The circular adornments at the base of the head are quite unique in my opinion. This one was made in South Africa in the 1970’s. Though, modern adorned knobkerries/talking sticks are still “weapons” in my opinion. But I see why it was moved.

[Ian]

Thanks for your understanding Nutellakinesis. I see what you mean about this one being different from those on etsy.