A spanish-mexican type large bowie knife ?

[Marius66]

Good evening dear members,
I'd like your advice about this large knife/small machete ,
21,65 inches long ( without scabbard )
He comes with his ''small'' side knife,
looks like a xxl bowie knife with a latino american style
( I find...)
Maybe antique ?
Can you help me to fix it ?!

Kind regards

[milandro]

it certainly has a Mexican type of look.

The eagle head pommel is a very common feature. The giveaway would be (if someone recognises it) the punch stamp which loos like ENBAT? EMBAT?

[werecow]

Interesting how much that blade resembles a short version of a klewang.

[Marius66]

Thank you for your messages
Milandro and Werecow !

I agree with Werecow, there is something VOC colonies in the blade shape,
hilt looks more Mexican as Milandro says...

I will receive it friday I hope,
I could send better pictures of the stamp and of the blade

Kind regards

[milandro]

the clip point and the fuller do look similar and I have been also thinking that I had seen the pommel on some Indonesian made weapon , I think that the key to identify is in the identification of the punch stamped mark.

Please make a beter picture or ask for one


IF this is Indonesian made then it is probably Tjikeroe






if you look though this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=948&highlight=Tjikeroeh


You will find some similarities

[Interested Party]

the clip point and the fuller do look similar and I have been also thinking that I had seen the pommel on some Indonesian made weapon , I think that the key to identify is in the identification of the punch stamped mark.

Shaver cool?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=282150&highlight=shaver+cool#post282150

I think Mexican may be the correct answer. A clearer picture of the stamp could help.

[werecow]

I don't know how to date these as I focus mainly on swords, but staying in the Americas for a moment, could it have been influenced by the American adoption of the klewang during WWII perhaps?

[milandro]

if these knives are Mexican they are most likely to be influenced by the Bowie itself .

After all James Bowie died at Alamo!

[gp]

forget Bowie...talking Mexico... Zapata is the man
( and as we all are speculating......why not perhaps could it not be influenced by Austrian / Habsburgian cold arms...thinking of Maximilian I of Mexico )

[Marius66]

Hello everybody,
The Indonesian with Dutch influence clue seems the right one ,
Here are the other pictures I received,
I can read TIJBAT,
TIJ for Tijkeroe as proposed by Milandro ?

[Marius66]

And the bird head pommel clearly looks like the Batavian model linked , thank you !
A garuda head ?!!

[Marius66]

For comparison,
I found this ''similar'' one , the central piece , in another old post about klewangs/kalewangs and the regulation models

[francantolin]

Hello,
TJIBAT simply for TJIBATOE... 😁

[milandro]

thanks to the better pictures and the detective work on Tjbatoe look very conclusive to me.:cool:

[Marius66]

Thank you ! Really precise !!

What can we say about the age ??

[milandro]

Thank you ! Really precise !!

What can we say about the age ??

I don't know that anybody can say precisely but a great number of these Indonesian made weapons came in the '50 of last century

[Marius66]

Hello,
I finally received it,

Here some pictures, an heavy model, 800 gramms
/ 1,75 pounds just for the small sword/machete .

For the dates , I read that these ''VOC dutch models'' were made until 1920 but sure, it looks more something WW2
( reminds me Aldo Raine's bowie knife in the movie Unglourious bastards... )

The steel is good

[Marius66]

I wonder if the handle is more bone, ivory or any celluloid...
One side cracked when I cleaned it with just a little water/soap

[milandro]

the VOC no longer existed by this time and this is certainly not inspired to the time it existed, this type of knives made there always had bone hilts

[Jim McDougall]

This interesting sword is of course IMO, a machete, and while the only thing about it that brings to mind the famed Bowie knife, is the distinct clipped point. The Bowie knife, became a prototype for heavy bladed knives across American frontiers through the 19th c. and naturally had profound influences on Mexican knives of these types. Naturally it was the presumed knife form that was the influence, not Jim Bowie himself.

There is not a real consensus on what the original 'Bowie' knife looked like, but later versions created the form we are most familiar with, having clipped point false edge blade, various hand guards etc.

I think the Indonesian potential for this weapon, as proposed, is most compelling, despite the distinctly Mexican looking hilt, and TJIKEROE is the most plausible explanation for the abbreviated letters at the forte. As shown, the blade has distinct characteristics of the Dutch 'klewang', the military versions as 'cutlasses' used well into the 20th c.
Note the blocked forte and the distinct fuller.

As noted, the Dutch VOC was defunct in 1799, and the British controlled Dutch regions until 1814. Dutch trade of course continued and there was strong commemorative posture regarding the long standing presence of the VOC (Shaver Kool :))

Adding to speculation already in place, there is always the possible cross diffusion of a Dutch blade in Mexican hilt through the ever present complexity of trade, particularly in Philippines with the clearly strong Spanish presence.