Magnetic weapons

[Jens Nordlunde]

Lodestone, or magnetic stone with iron, have been known to exist in India for several thousand years, and was very early used for the first compasses, as it, when put on water will turn so it points north south.
Does anyone know if it was used for weapons?
Maybe the content of iron was too little, or maybe it was too soft.
What is the reason that we hear so much about wootz and so little about the magnetic lodestone?

When you forge you will need heat and a hammer, and when you cast you will need heat – both heat and hammering kills magnetism. So whatever magnetism a dagger or a sword have, it must have been made after the weapon was finished.
I have a tulwar where the blade is magnetic on the middle but fades out, it can pull the needle from N to ESE or about 130 degrees, but the hilt can pull the needle all the way around
It is known that cast iron is easier to magnetize than forged iron, due to the rough structure of the iron, but it is also known, that cast iron looses the magnetism easier than forged iron. The finer the structure is the harder it is to magnetise the blade, but the longer it will stay magnetised. I don’t know how long time it would take, for a wootz blade to loose its magnetism, or for a cast item for that matter, but if a blade has been magnetised from the start, and it is, maybe two hundred years old, there is reason to believe that some of the magnetism has been lost – but how much?

Why make a blade magnetic, and a magnetic hilt is an even bigger puzzle. The only answer I can come up with at the moment is, that only few knew how to magnetise, and that a magnetised blade was magical. But is that the right answer?
Does anyone know the answer, and those of you who have magnetic blades, are this blade of high or of average quality?

On this page you can read about magnetism, it is rather interesting. http://www.newi.ac.uk/BUCKLEYC/magnet.htm
And on this one too.
http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magindex.htm

Please take a number and queue up before answering
:rolleyes:

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
"Please take a number and queue up before answering"

You pose a very interesting question on blade magnetism.
I have for the last week or so been testing my wootz daggers for magnetic fields. One I call the Mysore dagger has some very unusual properties (at least to me that is ) starting at he hilt end of the blade a compass will change direction four times! with the needle pointing N then S then N and then S again at the tip of the 12" blade. I have no idea as to how this magnetic properties were "added" to the blade or for what reason if in fact it was done knowingly at all. I have two Wootz ingots that are original ( not forged into a blade ) that show no such magnetic properties, which would lead one to believe that the magnetic properties were "added" after the blade was completed.
I am in the process of working up a visual display of the magnetic fields on this dagger and will post pictures when and if it works out.
Again you pose a very interesting subject/question, you do have a tendency to ask hard questions. :)
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Gene. Your dagger sounds to be rather unusual, and very interesting :rolleyes: .
When I wrote the thread I must have been somewhat unconcentratet, as I forgot to give a link to the lodestone, here it is - sorry. http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/lodeston.htm

Jens

[fearn]

Hi Mare Rosu,

Can you make up a story about the magnetized knife lying on top of a horseshoe magnet or two at some point (the legs of the horseshoe perpendicular to the blade). That would give the magnetic pattern you describe.

I suppose the other way you could magnetize a blade is to put it inside a big coil for a while with the power on. I think the problem there would be keeping the blade from acting like the center of a solenoid and getting shot out, possibly at high speed.... :D

Neat stuff. My question is, why would anyone want to do it, unless it's the usual "sword mysticism" kicking in?

[nechesh]

Jens, you may find the very first thread i posted of this forum of interest:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001099.html
I have been very interested in this subject for some time. For me, the answer to why magnetize a blade is indeed "sword mysticism" kicking in. The first thing i do when i receive a new keris is to check it for magnetic polarity. Most often it is farly weak or dead, but i have received a few blades with a very strong polarity. But even if the polarity is gone i create it. It is a VERY simple process. I have a very powerful magnet that i place the tip of the keris on, and after reciting a few highly secret magickal incantations :rolleyes:, it is done. I hold the blade there for less that a minute, so it really does not take much. Why do this? Well, i don't use my keris to cut, at least not in the mundane sense. ;) Polarizing the magnetic flow of the blade increases it's effectiveness as a conduit for energy. The entire universe operates of the interaction between strong and weak magnetic fields. This is occult science gentlemen, so please feel free to roll your eyes. :rolleyes: :)

[Rivkin]

I'm sorry if my idea will be completely stupid, but I don't find it to be a proof of "magnetization on purpose".

Very small pieces of pure iron (and most steels) are magnetic (ferromagnetic) due to their nature. It looses it's magnetic properties when heated, but regains them when cooled - to what extent depends on the way the cooling is performed. If it's rapid the magnetization after the cooling will probably be small, If it's gradual the sample will fully regain the full magnetization (ordering), which will mostly depend on sample's shape and chemical composition.

Now if the piece is not a microscopic one, then the magnetization is due to the fact that when the large piece is cooled it has to be under the influence of magnetic fields (magnetic field of the earth -this is actually how we know that it did decrease during the past 1000 years, anvil, hammers etc.). So if one has a sword that has nonuniform magnetization it can be that this sword for example was wielded from a few different pieces. It can be that the chemical composition varies from side to side (sulfa, chromium I think do kill magnetization quite easily). It can be that while cooled it was lying next to a huge magnetized hammer, so that the external field itself was extremely nonuniform.

Again, the way cooling is performed is very important. Very rapid cooling usually prevents the formation of a magnetized state. So if the blade for example is differentially heat treated it is possible that it simply has different magnetic states present due to this fact.

Such swords rather then becoming demagnetized with time would first actually become uniformly magnetized, and then would assume some magnetization due to the current earth's magnetic field (if it lies in the same place all the time), however it's even a big question if this _ever_ happens (it well may be that the current magnetized state is so efficient that it should take unphysically long time to change it using weak fields and temperatures).

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Rivkin]

And yes, placing a very powerful magnet (or taking it to a site of huge iron deposits) will "fix" the new magnetization even in a forged sword.

[Yannis]

As they say, experiment is the base of science. ;)

So, I carried out an experiment with my collection. All my blades passed 2cm away from a compass. Observations:

1. About 40% of them moved the needle.
2. No matter if the blade was antique wootz or 20th century factory made.
3. No matter if the blade is sort or long.
4. Most of the magnetized blades had north polarity in the tip.
5. Some long blades look like they change polarity in their length. They changed the direction of the needle few times as they were passing by.
6. And the winner is… an ottoman kard! This thin 6 inches blade forced the needle to do circles like maniac! Second winner a Caucasian kindjal that made the compass to do a full circle.

Conclusion? The magnetized blades are a funny hour. Sorry mystics. The truth is still out there :D

[Mare Rosu]

FEARN
"Can you make up a story about the magnetized knife lying on top of a horseshoe magnet or two at some point (the legs of the horseshoe perpendicular to the blade). That would give the magnetic pattern you describe."

Good question, I measured the distance from each change of the compass needle and as best as I can tell it is this; start and then 4 1/2" it changes and then back again at 7 1/2" and back again at 12" so the "legs' of the horse shoe magnet if used were not of equal distance.
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

The trick with the number seems as it if was a good idea – and I am very pleased J.

Thank you for your answers so far – and thank you very much for keeping so close to the topicJ

Gene you must have been watching when I put the thread on, as you were very fast, and the story you tell is just what it is all about – thank you.

Fearn, what you write sounds interesting, but is it something that you know, or something that you think? Thank you Gene good point!

Nechesh – I can’t say that I agree with you about magnetising blade anew, on the other hand, I think it must be up to the owner of the blade.

Rivkin, thank you for your input. What you write is important, and I do very much agree with you that the cooling of a sword means a lot to how the magnetism is preserved. I do however have some problems with what you write when you write: Such swords rather then becoming demagnetized with time would first actually become uniformly magnetized, and then would assume some magnetization due to the current earth's magnetic field (if it lies in the same place all the time), however it's even a big question if this _ever_ happens (it well may be that the current magnetized state is so efficient that it should take unphysical long time to change it using weak fields and temperatures.
Somewhere I read that the magnetism of the Earth was so weak that it would make little or no influence on a sword, although it was lying for a long time in the same place.

Do you have any comments to this. If you do, please come with themJ.

Yannis. 1. Your percentage is bigger than mine, although I have not tried all mine blade as yet.
2, 3-4 Same here.
5. Funny I have the same feeling – I wonder why?
6. Can’t beat that – if the needle circles like a maniac, it must be wild, the magnetism must be really strong. Do you know how old the kard and the kinjal are?

Gene we will look forward to the pictures of the magnet felt.

Thank you very much so far

Jens

[fearn]

Hi Jens,

That's something I think. I'm having fun contemplating magnetism in blades for a couple of reasons:

1. It exists.

2. It exists in folded blades,

3. It exists in tempered blades.

1. is self-evident (and I'm enjoying reading these accounts). As for 2., well, if a sheet of magnetized steel is folded over itself, doesn't it cancel out? What about if it's folded over itself a bunch of times? 3., What happens to magnetization when a blade is differentially heat treated? Since the crystal structure is getting deformed, I'm still puzzling out whether this would affect a magnetic field. Basically, I don't see a straight route from magnetite to a blade without remagnetizing the blade after it's manufactured.

Balanced against all this skepticism are the observations people are reporting here. Perhaps there's a way for a hunk of magnetite to retain its magnetism after it's been folded, tempered, heat treated (and possibly alloyed). Personally, I think the magnetic field came later. As Nechesh points out, it's quite easy to do. As to where those asymmetric fields up and down blades came from, I think that an experiment with some magnets and a non-magnetized sword are in order :)

Fearn (not Fern, thanks!)

[nechesh]

Conclusion? The magnetized blades are a funny hour. Sorry mystics. The truth is still out there :D

Sorry Yannis. i'm not sure i understand your statement or what exactly the "truth" is in this case.

Jens, you are, of course, welcome not to magnetize your blades if you choose. I wasn't necessarily advocating it, just stating it as a practice, but i am curious why you "disagree" with the practice. :confused:

[Rivkin]

Somewhere I read that the magnetism of the Earth was so weak that it would make little or no influence on a sword, although it was lying for a long time in the same place.

Do you have any comments to this. If you do, please come with themJ.
Jens

That's why I wrote "however it's even a big question if this _ever_ happens". In general I would say that magnetic field of the earth is strong enough to magnetize all the ancient pottery. It's way more tricky with swords and big iron objects in general. I'm pretty sure that in a cool place 5000-10000 years of lying in the same place will certainly make a difference, and may be it will make a lot of difference if the sword is heated up and sloooowly cooled down.

In short there are so many parameters (defects in the crystalline structure, historical facts like being made in the place with iron deposits, macroscopic shape etc.) that can affect any sword's magnetization that it's impossible to guess "why ?".

[Robert]

This is something that I learned along time ago. Take an iron bar and point it so one end is pointing north and the other is pointing south (using a compass) and strike the south pointing end with a hammer. The bar will magnetize. Maybe someone has tried this with swords? :D

[Jim McDougall]

Although I cannot claim any aptitude toward physics, I cannot resist being 'drawn' :) to this fascinating thread!! As always, Jens poses intriguing questions on most unusual topics.

The subject of metallurgy as applied in the blades of edged weapons has often been discussed here, as has the more esoteric aspect of the use of meteoric iron, but little concerning magnetic properties in blades has been considered. The exception, as has been noted by Nechesh, was his post of several years ago and is linked in his previous post.

The presence of lodestones, or magnetite with the iron attracting properties discussed, has been known since early Greek times. Other than being considered an interesting anomaly, it does not seem that this curious material keyed any special purpose. One of the primary features of magnetism has been its use in navigation and the development of the compass, but this apparantly did not occur until about the end of the 11th century AD in China.
There are no references in old Greek and Roman literature about the directive properties of magnetic material (the term magnet came from the Greek term for people called the Magnetes who lived in Magnesia,in Thessaly).
The first use of crude compasses at sea is reported by the Chinese, and believed to refer to those used by Muslim traders in regions between Canton and Sumatra in latter 11th c.
There was little attention given to magnetic navigation in the west until the latter 16th century with most attention applied to celestial navigation, aside from isolated interest.

Since lodestone, or magnetite was so little known through these periods of history, and certain ferromagnetic metals such as nickel and cobalt were not identified until the 18th and 19th centuries, it does not seem that there would have been any deliberate attention given to applying magnetic properties in forged steel in early times. It does seem however, that the occurence of such forces would have inspired mystical and occult attention, along with other natural phenomenon such as meteoric iron.

Although as I have noted, I cannot add much to the discussion on the physical properties of magnetism, I just wanted to share some observations that pertain to the historical perspective,

Best regards,
Jim

[Yannis]

Jim
There are 2 Magnesia in greek world. The one you mention is an area in central Greece that includes mount Pelion. It is there that in myths the wise Centauri lived. The second one is a city. Magnesia on the Meander (river) was in Ionia (Asia Minor). It was destroyed by Cimmerians and rebuild. Its most famous child was Pausanias the great geographer of the 2nd century A.D. Both places are claiming the origin of the term “magnetism”. Also there is a third story of a Cretan shepherd that found the phenomenon. His name was Magnes.


Jens
The kindjal is hallmarked late 19th century. I estimate the kard early 19th. This kard is a real magnet. It can easy hold a small nail or a safety pin. I examined the kard again. Nothing strange except some line marks on blade like old grinding. Can grinding magnetise a blade?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi all,

Not all magnetite can become lodestone, it takes a special crystal structure, see what Dr. Peter Wasilewski, of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre, writes here http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/lodeston.htm this will answer some of the questions asked.

Fearn, I am nor a specialist on this, but I would think, that if you fold a blade many times, it will loose magnetism. I agree with you, I also think the magnetism on blades was made later – but why?
If we believe in what Dr. Peter Wasilewski writes, the lightening together with a good portion of superstition would lead them to believe that the Gods had made this metal.
I don’t know if lodestone was ever used for weapons, maybe it was too difficult to get the iron out of the stone, or maybe the percentage of iron was too small, I don’t know – but one thing it could do, and that was making other iron weapons magnetic. If they believed that the Gods gave them this stone, they would also believe in, that using this stone to magnetize a blade would give the user more power.

Nechesh, I know you did not advocating for magnetizing blades. I clean my blade and etch them, but I don’t magnetise them. The reason for this is that I don’t know if the blade was magnetised from the start, that is why I leave it be.

Rivkin, it seems as if Dr. Peter Wasilewski does not agree with you about the magnetic felt of the earth when it comes to lodestone, maybe the magnetic felt could influence ancient pottery, I don’t know, and I don’t know the reason for this.
I think you are right, that if any magnetism would be recovered in a blade after heating, it must cooled very slowly – just like the Indians did with wootz.
The defects in crystalline structures, what other metal the iron was mixed with, even in very small doses must have been a problem for the smiths, as this would have affected the way the iron should be treated. It seems to me, that wootz from one ore might have needed a slightly different treatment than wootz from another ore, according to how the iron was mixed. But I never saw anywhere that the wootz ores were magnetic, only the lodestone.

Robert, on the first link I gave, it somewhere say, that if you take a big nail which is not magnetised and hammer on one end for 50 times, the nail is magnetic – if you turn the nail and do the same on the other en of the nail, you will change the poles.

Jim, I think a crude compass was made much earlier than about 11th century AD, try to read this:
For many years magnetism was just a curious natural phenomenon and its only use was in navigation as what we now refer to as the mariner's compass and which was probably first developed by the Chinese some 4500 years ago. The earliest mariner's compass comprised a splinter of loadstone carefully floated on the surface tension of water.
You can find the whole text here http://www.newi.ac.uk/BUCKLEYC/magnet.htm if you are surprised when reading this, I understand you – I was surprised too.

Does anyone know if lodestone alone, or in combination with iron/wootz was used for making weapon?

Interesting questions you ask – but you must remember that I am not an expert – I try to learn as fast as you ask the questions.

yannis, interesting what you write to Jim, try to have a look on the link I gave him.
Yes, filing on a blade can make it magnetic, but you would have to file in the same direction the whole time - not back and forth, and I think it would be an advantage if the file was magnetic. I doubt however if it would make a kard blade as magnetic as the one you have, but I don't know it.

Jens

[Rivkin]

I believe that the case with Wasilevski is that his message have been probably perverted by "popular" explanation - probably what he meant is that extremely well magnetized samples have origins different from just being cooled in Earth magnetic field.

Concerning the knowledge that ancient iron (whether in pottery, iron deposits or special spherical boxes lying on the ocean's floor) is magnetized alongside the Earth magnetic field at the time of the iron sample's cooling period is a well known fact, avoiding "real" papers I would bring your attention to:
http://www.sciencetech.technomuses.ca/english/schoolzone/Info_Magnets.cfm

"Magnetite is magnetic because its molecular structure has allowed it to retain the alignment of particles caused by the Earth's magnetic field during its formation millions of years ago. When heated to high temperatures magnetite loses its natural magnetism. "
http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/cosmic_evolution/docs/text/text_plan_5.html
"Finally, a fourth bit of evidence also favors the idea of plate tectonics, although here the data aren’t as robust, their implications not as clear. This evidence is supplied by paleomagnetism—the study of ancient magnetism. Everyday experience tells us that iron is magnetic; in fact, any metal containing even small amounts of iron ore is usually magnetized. However, when iron is heated to temperatures ~1000 K, it loses its magnetic properties as individual atoms jostle freely (which is why magnetic thermometers often fall off the side of a roaring wood stove). Hot basalt—the dark, dense stuff of volcanoes—impregnated with traces of iron and upwelling from cracks in the oceanic ridges, is thus not magnetic. As the basalt cools, magnetism sets in as each iron atom effectively responds to Earth’s magnetic field like a compass needle. When the basalt solidifies to form hard rock shortly thereafter, it fixes the orientation of the embedded iron, since the iron atoms align themselves with the orientation of Earth’s field at the time of cooling. Accordingly, the ocean-floor matter has preserved within it a history of Earth’s magnetism."

[Rivkin]

And it would not make a bit of difference to make swords from lodestones - they would lose their magnetization, just as any other piece of iron, during the heating process.

[capt.smash]

HI i might be out of my depth here but im sure i heard that if you take 2 pieces of metal and stroke them together in the same direction continualy for a long ..long time they eventualy become slightly magnetic[a labour intensive version of strokeing a piece of metal in 1 direction with a magnet ]..i have noticed this in old drillbits that develop magnetism from spinning continualy in 1 direction against metal.[i asume this is why they become magnetic]?
Perhaps smiths who use metal files could inadvertantly cause magnetism in blades from useing a file in this method, gradualy magnetiseing the file and then whatever blade he works on [this is relying on him haveing a fileing technique where he files only on 1 direction and lifting the file on the return stroke ]i see this fileing technique in woodwork but not sure about metalwork.
Also mabe this could be the case for a stone sharpeing/grinding wheel[if it had a slight metal content]?Also this might explain why some blades have diffrent strength magnetism on diffrent parts of the blade that required more fileing.
This may sound silly but i thaught id mention it :p .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Rivkin, you explanation sounds most interesting, as well as you links, which I will read - and hope I will understand :o .

I must say, that I am overwhelmed by the inputs and the quality of the inputs, thank you very much.

capt.smash, no you are not out of your depth, on the contrary. You are dead on mark. Yes the fils must be used only in one direction, or it wont work. All the litte pieces of iron would be all confused otherwise :o . Thank you for answering.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS and all others good forum folks.
A most interesting thread indeed. I find little to fault with all the input but I have a question: How can one have two or more magnetic poles on the same blade? If you use a file, hammering or other means to magnetize a blade on purpose or otherwise, would you not have just one pole a North and a South pole on the blade. It is hard for me to figure out a process that would magnetize a blade with more than one North,& South pole without doing so on purpose by someone along the way. Leaving it in one place even for hundreds of years would still give you just a North and a South pole.
So my take is that a blade with more than one North and one South pole must have been done so on purpose.
Gene
Sorry :( Fearn got it right this time.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, you got it absolutely right - the way you describe it, is the way it must have been done - on purpose :rolleyes: .
Now the big question is why, and I doubt veru much that anyone can answer this question, unless we find some hints in old books. Should I find them, be sure that I will let you know.

Jens

[Rivkin]

Most likely purpose have absolutely nothing to do with it. Anvil and hammer assuming they are magnetized (which is quite a logical assumption), they can create a very weird magnetic patterns in the forged blade. Not taking into account interactions in between of different parts of the blade, differential heat treatment, different chemical compositions.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread really is more and more fascinating!!
Yannis: thank you for the additional notes on Magnesia. I did see the reference to both regions when I read the entry in Brittanica, but left out that detail for simplicity in general reference. It seems to me the reference to the Cretan shepherd may likely be apocryphal. As always, I would defer to your outstanding knowledge of your country's history.

Jens: I have read the material on the link referring to Chinese mariners compasses being used some 4500 years ago, but cannot find anything to support the authors statement. Most of my research is based on Encyclopedia Brittanica data which notes (under 'compass') "...there is no genuine record of a Chinese maritime compass before 1297 AD as Kalproth admits".
*"Letire a' M.LeBaron Humboldt sur l'invention de la boussele" J. Kalproth, 1840, p.57 (bossola=It. term for compass, used by Muslims).
The Brittanica states further that the earliest allusion to the power of lodestone in Chinese literature occurs in a Chinese dictionary in 121 AD defining the stone as giving attraction to a needle. There is however myth suggesting a Chinese emperor created a chariot to indicate south (the Chinese compasses focused south, while European north) and the four cardinal directions, c.2634 BC. This period would fall loosely into that suggested in the material noting 4500 year old date, but it would seem that data remains largely subjective.
Naturally more recent research has discovered considerable new material concerning early Chinese maritime history as we have found in the book "1421", so more must be considered before any conclusions can be drawn.

Concerning the use of lodestone in smelting steel:
Robert Elgood in "Arms & Armour of Arabia in 18th & 19th c." on p.107 states. "...Birdwood (1880) wrote that 20 miles east of Nirmal and a few miles south of the Shisha hills occurs the hornblende slate or schist from which the magnetic iron used for ages in the manufacture of damascus steel, and by the Persians for their swordblades is obtained."
"The Industrial Arts of India" G.C.M.Birdwood, London, 1880, p.50

Elgood also notes on p.86 that HH Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti described to him how magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raised the esteem of the blade. He notes that the very best janbiyya and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made. These blades were referred to generally as 'Haiderabad'.

It would seem that magnetite was certainly present in certain wootz from India, although not necessarily in all of it. It is noted that wootz was also of course smelted in Kona Samundrum (southern India) where much of this product was exported particularly to Persia as the raw material in cakes.
It is not specified that any magnetic properties existed in this form of wootz.

I think the observations concerning creating magnetic polarity by filing consistantly as described is interesting, and while certainly non relevant to magnetism, I think it is interesting to note that the force of static electricity also creates the property of attraction in textiles. With the forces of nature, and as we well know in the aviation industry, static electricity can be deadly near volatile materials. On a lesser note, the same force can be maddening for women wearing certain clothing on a dry, windy day :).. the dreaded static cling!!

Now ask me as I sit in the rubble of notes and stacked books here in my den, how in the world did I get from ancient Chinese navigational history and the production of steel in India to static cling in womens skirts!!? :)
I need some rest !!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,

Brilliant - that is what I had hoped to hear, very good - thank you very much.

Best

Jens

[Yannis]

Jim

I am speechless and I bow to your superior knowledge!

I suppose that if Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti had this idea about magnetic blades, it was more possible to be an old idea.

Also, as we see, only some blades have strong field. Most books don’t mention it, so this idea was not widespread. My feeling now is that of an old oral tradition, a kind of secret between a weapons elite. So this elite could the right time demonstrate the secret power and benefit of it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Most likely purpose have absolutely nothing to do with it. Anvil and hammer assuming they are magnetized (which is quite a logical assumption), they can create a very weird magnetic patterns in the forged blade. Not taking into account interactions in between of different parts of the blade, differential heat treatment, different chemical compositions.

Yes that could be a possibility, but (sorry, I know all the 'buts' are iritating) if it was the hammer and the anvil, why are so few blade magnetic?
Different heating and maybe different chemicals used, as we do know they used different chemicals, could also be part of the process, but again, if so, why do we have so relativly few magnetic blades?

Yannis, the way I see it, I think you are comming frightfully close - but I am guessing, I can't prove it :mad: . Your mail made me remember something said about enamel making, it was either in Jeypore Enamels, 1886, by Jacob and Hendley, or in Indian Art at Delhi 1903, by Watt. In one of the places the author writes that some of the secrets about enemal making has been told by a named Englishman, and the authors attitude was that he should not have told the secrets.
If the attitude of the early writers was 'let the artists keep their secrets', one can not wonder why we find so few hints about magnetism in the books.

We still have a puzzle or two, and one is Gene's blade. Why does the magnetism change four times? I have been told that it is no problem to do this, but there must be a reason for someone to use his time to make the blade magnetic like it is :confused:.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

Quote from JIM "Elgood also notes on p.86 that HH Sultan Ghalib Al Qu'aiti described to him how magnetic quality found in some dagger blades raised the esteem of the blade. He notes that the very best janbiyya and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made. These blades were referred to generally as 'Haiderabad'"


JIM As far as I am concerned you have answered to my satisfaction the question on why the blades were magnetic in the first place, it was a desired quality by the makers and users of the blades. :)

Yannis I share with you the "speechless" comment you made, with folks like Jim with his never ceasing quest for knowledge and the desire to share it is what this forum is all about. :D

Now we just have got to keep Jens from posting for a day or two all these hard questions and let us absorb the good information. :rolleyes:
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, I promise that I won’t ask any questions – at least not now.

Jim, I think I owe you an answer to the compass question. You are right, the one telling about the compass does not give any reference, so in order to compensate for this, I think we should shorten the time period with 1000 years, also I must admit, that a splinter swimming in a cup of water hardly can be called a compass, for this I will suggest, that we shorten the time period with 500 years – is this compensation agreeable with you:o?

Yes Gene, I know I promised, but this is only a 'small' question:p.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
Since you will not stop asking question on this great thread of yours :)
I will answer one at least, to me, it is a possibility, if in fact the magnetic properties of a blade were desirable as JIM states then more would be even better, it would be to me anyway.
I am still waiting for the equipment to visual demonstrate the magnetic effect on the Mysore dagger. Should be in this week, I hope.
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

Yannis and Gene, thank you very much for the kind words! As Gene notes, I am simply sharing information that I can find so we can all learn together, which is exactly what this forum is all about :)

Yes Jens, you are a tough professor!!! :) I may never get this huge mess in my den cleared up, but the games afoot, and we gotta keep going!
As I noted with the compass historical data, I think it would be extremely difficult to know even within the range you suggest exactly when the first application to maritime navigation for this phenomenon occurred. The data I noted is simply some that has been referenced, but overall..the jury is still out. The main point here has been that magnetic material had no given domestic or practical value until the actual development of compasses into general use. Even at that juncture there would have been no specific purpose for deliberate use of such material in sword blades.

Back to the presence of lodestone or magnetite in the wootz producing ores in India:
In Pant (p.90), he notes "...in India the steel ingots were carried from the Nirmal District of Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh), to Cutch, a maritime region on northwest coast of India and exported to Persia, Syria and the East African ports, whence they found their way to Europe".
He notes further production also at Kona Samundrum (in Hyderabad some 25 miles south of Nirmal) and at Dundurthy (14 miles east of Nirmal), and that some of these ores were mixed with some from Indore district.
It is noted further (p.92)that the ores at Kona Samundrum were a mixture of the local magnetic schist with a subordinate quantity of haemetites and the black ferruginous sands found along river beds and nullahs. These were mixed with some of the ferruginous quartzites and schist from the Indore district in proportions 3 to 2, then the mix crushed to a coarse sand. The powdered quartz and other useless matter was then rinsed from the ferrous material.
The complex and detailed description goes on, but I think this illustrates that certain magnetic material certainly did find inclusion in the materials used in wootz production here, but does not appear intentional.

I think that what was intentionally placed in the mix, besides the teak and bamboo charcoal were the leaves of certain trees or plants which were added for magical value (as well obviously as for the carboniferous content).
This is noted in Figiel (p.15) and the use of various plant material in smelting is discussed in Robert Elgoods new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" in numerous instances.

It is interesting to consider what natural phenomenon would have caused these schists in certain areas to become magnetic. In definition, schist(Gk.=splittable) is described as a class of crystalline rocks whose constituent minerals have more or less foliated (thin, separatable laminae) or parallel arrangement due to metamorphic action.
Here I would defer to our scientists, would that metamorphic action be the lightning strikes that create magnetite from lodestone?
In any case, it appears tht Hyderabad clearly is at least one defined location for magnetism in wootz.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

How strong a magnet is a lodestone, and are different stones of different strength?
I think they may be, according to the amount of iron – but I am not sure.
If we accept, that the first compass (sorry JimJ) was a bucket of water with a splinter of lodestone floating on the water, how long time would it take before the stone started diving?
Should they have any use of this early compass, then either the lodestone must be a rather strong magnet – adjusting fast north-south, or the stone must be very light to give it time to adjust before diving.
Gene, I agree with Jim, that making swords and daggers always, especially in the early days, had something to do with mysticism. In the Nordic mythology the dwarfs made the weapons for the Gods, as they were a mystic people, who knew how to put whichever witchcraft desired into any blade. I think the idea of this has been Worldwide, the more a blade differed from another blade, the bigger the talismanic value – and a blade like yours would, I think, have a big talismanic value for the owner.

Jens

[fearn]

Hi Jens,

This is going off topic, but I think that, if you put the lodestone on a float (for instance, a piece of cork or wood) then it would float quite easily.

Fearn

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fearn,

Yes, you are right of course - I should have thought of it, and yes, you are quite right, I was off the topic :o .

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

I have had an interesting mail from one of our new members, whom I would like to welcome to this forum, Dr. Ann Feuerbach. In the mail she told me to take an interest in Archaeomagnetism. I did not know the word, but I do know, try to go on Google and look for the word. This, I am quite sure will interest many of you, and it gives the whole discussion another angle. Happy surfing.

Jens

[Rivkin]

Archeomagnetism is using old pottery, iron deposits etc. to study the evolution of the Earth's magnetic field.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Rivkin, I know that you also tried to direct me in that direction - when you mention the cheramics - but I did not understand it at the time - sorry.
None the less - this is a most interesting subject, and I tink that much more forumites should join.
This is not only facinating, it is essential how to find out, how old a thing is - and to prove it. Any collector must be interested to join this discussion!

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Another thing which can be related to this subject is, Archaeomagnetism. The first time I heard about it was from Ann Feuerbach, I tried to look for it on Google, and I must say, if you don't know what it is, have a look - it is facinating.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
I had a very hard time getting these two pictures of the Mysore dagger.
It took several days just to get them. I used two different types of material to show the effect, one was a powder Iron and very rusty, but it did a better job as it was finer and dispersed better the other, which was Zinc coated Iron filings while not rusty it very course and did not disperse as well.
Regardless the compass will start N and then S and back to N and finally S at the very tip of the 12" blade.

Gene

[Rivkin]

A fantastic picture. I see that most of the blade is not magnetized at all, but there 4-7 macrodomains, which are magnetized. I would say that there definitely has to be some kind of a structural nonuniformety at these points. What surprises me that these domains are quite big, moreover rather than forming let's say a vortex like structure they are actually very well separated.

For now I would say that there are 4 areas that either cooled much slower than the rest of the blade, or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade.

I'm not surprised to see N/S/N configuration: the interaction in between of these areas is obviously dipole-based, and knowing the fact that is magnetized perpendicular to the line that connects these (I don't really want to confuse people by saing "domains") areas, the most benefitial configuration would indeed be the one with the opposite magnetizations.

I will try to get some other opinions on this image - great stuff, thank you.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you very much for the work Gene, it paid off, the pictures are fantastic. Please show us a picture of the blade and a close up of the blade. Thank you for making the experiment.

Rivkin, you obvious know a lot more about this than most of us, which is very good. The trend started as an amateur discussion, but has moved on far beyond that.
You write: ‘For now I would say that there are 4 areas that either cooled much slower than the rest of the blade, or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade.’
What do you mean by writing ‘cooled much slower’ – how much slower would it need to be to give this effect?
When you write ‘or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade’ what do you mean by this – differ in what way?
Could the blade have been made in this way by polishing it with a lodestone?

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is a picture of the dagger.
RIVKIN Thanks for your comments on the picture.
I would like to tell all that would try and duplicate this, is this. Be ready for a lot of frustration! as I tried this well over a 50 times over a two weeks time period taking hours and hours of time. I gleefully :) jumped into this project and just dumped the Iron Powder over the covered blade, sorry it did not work at all for me. :mad: To make a long story Short, I had to make a box (patten applied for! :rolleyes: )that would hold the dagger level and keep all wind currents away from the Iron powder (sneezing will do "wonders" to the effect, don't ask :( ) I had to just about place each Iron particle by hand on the paper, as the Iron powder would not form a pattern if to much was used in one place and it had to be even over all the blade. I also think that by leaving it undisturbed, with the Iron powder in place, for two days did allow the Iron powder to take a "set", that's my thinking anyway. It would be nice also if your Iron powder was not rusty as mine was, it sure is messy, and will cause you to sneeze (I said do not ask!). The Zinc coated Iron filings just did not work well for me as it was just to course however it did not cause a mess or make me sneeze. :)
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, could you not have polished the iron powder before you started the experiment? It would have made it a bit less messy :p . If yje iron powder is very fine, could you not have used a pepperboxto distribute the powder?
From which part of the blade is the experiment?
Thank you for taking your time :rolleyes: .
Jens

[tom hyle]

Many blades become magnetized by the stroking of the grinding and sharpening processes; Many of my everyday knives and chisels display this affect, but the pole changing seems weird, and though I've never tested, the magnetization of knives from sharpening seems to be only along the edge and/or tip.
Hot working magnetic steel will demagnetize it, but not all of us knew that. Allow me to propose that the original costumers didn't know it either; perhaps this was a gimmick to "demonstrate" a blade being from a famous magnetic ore deposite (or of course, to suggest other magical/spiritual powers; look how modern paranormalists use their thermometers, manetometers, electrometers, etc.).

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
If you look close at the larger of the two pictures (the one I used Iron powder on) on the left side you can just make out the hilt of the dagger so the orientation, is sharp side of the blade is down and T back side is up and closest to the paper and Iron powder. JENS where were you when I need you? Clean/polish the rusty powder indeed what should I have used Simichrome, or WD-40? :rolleyes:

I also must tell you all that I made a big mistake in doing all this :( . For when I moved the dagger, from taking the last picture, it fell out of the box I used to shield it, the dagger fell about five feet and hit on my concrete floor, hitting the heavy hilted end with enough force to smash one of the gemstones in the hilt end, the stone was a Peridot. I will have it replaced next week (I hope) but I am now afraid to even check to see if the pole reversing was effected in anyway, as some of the forum folks here have stated that blows will effect the magnetic properties of steel, but will do so just as soon as I get over all this. I'll keep you posted.
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, why do you ask? When you were supposed to polish the iron powder, I was out walking the dogs - of course :D .
I am sorry to hear about the dagger, and hope that nothing has happend to it. Should something have happen, try to ask Ann, I am sure that she will be able to help.

Jens

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Could the material content on the metal influence more than rather ,,induced magnetism,, ?

[derek]

Very cool thread, guys.
It got me to dig out my old Lensatic liquid filled and test some blades. Of all my collection, the one that showed the most interesting affect was an Omani Jambiya with an old blade. It pulled all the way south at the base and then swung all the way north at the tip. Most of my swords did very little in comparison. The surprise was an old and well-used Tibetan Khampa work knife that swings the needle completely north.

-d

[Mare Rosu]

Jens
I have good news and bad news on my dagger I call Mysore ( I think that is a name that depicted my feelings when I dropped the dagger, My Sore!, I wish no disrespect to the good folks in Mysore India as my southern humor is at play here :) )
I have replaced the Period stone in the handle and it really looks good, that is the good news.
The bad news is that the magnetic field has changed after the drop. While the same N,S,N,S, pattern with my compass is still the same, the overall attraction is a lot less now, I will try to set up a visual display of the effect tomorrow using the Iron powder (no Jens I did not polish the rust off the Iron powder ;) and take some pictures for posting here.
I have something else to confuse, (at least it is confussing to me, that for sure), you good forum folks about all of this, is that the compass needle does not change directions the same way as I move the compass over the blade, one time the needle goes counterclockwise and then it goes clockwise as I move the compass over the blade as it reverses direction. I would think it would always move in the same direction, :confused: I will post more information, tomorrow to make this a little more understanable.
Anyway things are getting back to normal with the repair done.
But the mystery of the Mysore Dagger goes on!
Gene

















b

[fearn]

That's too bad about your dagger, Mare!

About that quadruple dipole configuration...my mom the electrical engineer (no joke!) had a suggestion:

She suggested that there's a real easy way to smuggle valuable knives. All you do is take a couple of magnets (two horseshoes or four bars) and use them to attach the knife to the underside of a car or truck. The border guard doesn't notice, customs aren't paid....or whatever.

I'm NOT claiming that your knife was purchased illegally! Far from it! Unless you have a complete provenance on it, though, it might be...difficult to figure out where and how it has travelled over the course of its existence.

Anyway, she was of the opinion that the magnetic field you demonstrated so nicely probably resulted by accident, from the knife being exposed to magnets for an extended period of time. The smuggling idea counts here--the magnets were essential, but the pattern is accidental. The alternative would be that someone deliberately magnetized it in that pattern, for reasons unknown.

Since you've dropped it once, I think that running a real test of this involving magnets and your own car would probably count as a Bad Idea. However, it's something to think about, and it'd make a nice party story, at least.

Cheers,

Fearn

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, it is very unfortunate that you dropped the pesh-kabz, but at the same time it is very fortunate that it did not piece your foot. Always look at the bright sides of life.
Do you have the impression that the hilt of your pesh-kabz is hollow?
The one shown below has a hollow grip, and the blade is magnetic, but only one time N-S.

Fearn, how much does your mother charge to take daggers and swords into another country, will the charge be pr border, and will there be a discount, if there are more than one border which have to be crossed?
I think you mothers suggestion sounds like a possibility we have to take into consideration.
How strong a magnet is a lodestone, and could the magnetism on Gene’s dagger have been obtained by polishing the blade with a lodestone?
Will an electric wire held along the blade improve the magnetism, so that the iron powder will be easier to work with?

[fearn]

Fearn, how much does your mother charge to take daggers and swords into another country, will the charge be pr border, and will there be a discount, if there are more than one border which have to be crossed?
I think you mothers suggestion sounds like a possibility we have to take into consideration.


And she's such a sweet and innocent-looking lady, too. It's too bad that she doesn't live near any borders that we'd care about.:rolleyes:

Personally, I'd secure the blade inside a body panel, simply to keep it clean. :cool:

Smuggling aside, I'd suggest that magnets would be a decent display (or whatever) mount for smaller blades, especially guardless ones. Obviously, it wouldn't work on something with a disk guard, like a katana or a dao, but for a slim-line blade, like this pesh-kabz or a dha, it might be a nice way to display it.

Mostly I'd suggest this as an explanation for cases where there are multiple dipoles across the blade. Others here have made some good suggestions about why a knife would have a single dipole, etc.

Fearn

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
Two pictures of the change in magnetic field on the Mysore dagger.
As you can tell the Iron powder is not showing the magnetic field as well as the first time we tested it. I had to use the side of the blade instead of the "T" back as I did in the first "test", to even get this amount to show.
The N, S, N, S change in the compass is still the same, and I cannot tell any change in that at all.
What is puzzling to me is that the needle on the compass does not turn in the same direction. It will go counterclockwise at first then go clockwise the next two times when going to the new poll positions.
The hilt is also solid and that is why it did not go point down and stab me in the leg :)
You are getting on to me for causing you to have sleepless nights, you should talk, with all the hard questions/information that you post, I have to stay up most of the my nights just to try and stay up with you :)

FEARN
Your mother's theory on how a blade can get magnetize is one that I would have never thought of. She has talents that are commendable. As the old saying (at least in the South it does) goes, Acorns do not fall to far from the tree.
So you must have the same inclinations/skills ;)
Gene

[fearn]

Hi Mare,

Sneaky is as sneaky does, sahr.... (Forrest Gump reference, in case you didn't catch it) :)

(Un)fortunately, everyone in my family is pretty honest--great practical jokers, but honest otherwise.

One suggestion about the compass needle flipping back and forth is that I suspect it's taking the minimum energy path for flipping. I've seen the same kind of thing playing with a compass and magnets, and I'm pretty sure that the needle will flip back and forth in the minimum arc necessary to follow the magnetic field. There's no particular reason (that I can think of anyway) that the compass will always spin in the same pattern every time.

Personally, I'm enjoying the patterns you're producing. If you really want to get involved, you could get one of those magnetic knife racks and a couple of cheap kitchen knives, and see if you can reproduce the banding pattern.

Fearn

[Mare Rosu]

FEARN
I will get one of those knife holders today and give it a try, great idea.
However you are just confirming my deep convictions of your upbringings :)
I do agree, now that you have explained it to me, on the reason why the needle swings the way is does, most things do go by the path of least resistance.
I am also going to try and find four (cheep) compasses and place them on the blade and take a picture of the compasses all being in a different direction at the same time, just to show to the nay sayers (if there be any out there) ;) that this is happening the way I am explaining it.
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, I can see what you mean – did you use the same amount of iron powder, and are the iron pieces of equal size? I guess that you did, and that they are, but it does not hurt to ask, or I may look forward to another sleepless night :o .
Fearn's suggestion sounds like a good idea to try, I am looking forward to hear how the experiment runs.
You were very fast in getting the stone replaced - do you have a mine of your own?

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
I did use the same Iron powder as well as trying to do it the very same way. I could not use as much of the Iron powder as the magnetic field was so weak that if I use more it overwhelmed the effect and I could not take a picture of it. I am getting better at this as it only took me six times this time. :) To answer the question about the Peridot replacement on the dagger is that I went to a store in Franklyn NC called Ruby City and they has a pear/seed shaped stone of the exact size needed for the replacement. I did not want to leave the dagger with them so I bought the stone at the outrageous price of $5.00! and did the replacement my self. I did get "how to" advice from the owner as to how to do it. All in all not a bad days piece of work don't you think? For your information, ( I know you did not ask but I will tell you anyway) that Franklyn, NC is famous for it's Ruby mining as well as Sapphires and Garnets and other gems. You have to watch out as there are a lot of "sea sick" Rubies for the unawares for sale. What is "Sea Sick" Rubies you ask? Rubies from overseas that are of very poor quality and the name comes from the sea voyage over here, are then "salted" in the mines for the "tourist" to find.
FEARN
I took your advice/suggestion and did acquire a magnetic knife holder to test the effect on a cheep carbon knife. I also got four compasses to show the effect on the pol changes on the dagger. Will set this all up tomorrow and take pictures for you and others of the forum.
I ask to all that read this thread that JENS started, am I doing to much on all this? I think it is very interesting, as well as fun ( as long as you do not sneeze when doing the Iron powder test!) but that is just my opinion. Anyway I am winding down on this and should be over the testing tomorrow unless JENS ask more hard questions :)

RADU
You asked a question earlier on this thread, that never got an answer.
Reason I did not answer is that I did not understand the question, if you are still reading this thread ask again and I'll have one my assistants, :) JENS or FEARN answer you. :D
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, thank you for answering my questions – also the questions not asked. There is however one question which I did not ask, and which you did not answer. The iron powder you use, how fine is it, is it like table salt, or not quite as fine? From your pictures I think it must be rather fine, but I am not sure.
To my opinion you should go on with the experiment, as I find it interesting and have learned quite a lot from the different answers. Another reason is, that I can’t remember to have seen an experiment like this one on this forum before, although this is/should be part of the interest when collecting swords and daggers.
Jens

[Ann Feuerbach]

Hello all!
Now that I have replaced my painfully slow old computer I can start to join in. At the risk of being slightly off the track, here are some thoughts/comments etc on magnetism of crucible Damascus steel blades, for what it is worth.... It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago.
I have heard from those producing crucible Damascus steel today, that at least one blacksmith repeatedly tests the bade during forging, to know when the pattern is good. I will try to find that e-mail, in a list of 500, so it may take a while. Plus, polishing with a loadstone may effect the magnetic properties.
As soon as I get a chance (not till the summer) I will research this topic further, looking for historical references and I will suggest some scientific explinations.
I thought I have covered all aspects of crucible Damascus steel, but magnetivity and sound are the two new brain teasers!
:rolleyes:
Ann
http://moltenmuse.home.att.net
http://www.AASTI.us

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ann, and welcome to the forum.
Do you know, are any of the ingots from the different parts of India magnetic?
In the book ‘The Mansabdari System and the Mughul Army’ the author, Abdul Aziz place the lodestone/Magnetite amongst the semi precious stones. What does it look like?
The sound is interesting. When you can make a katars side guards sound like a tuning fork for a looong time, it is fantastic, but when you try with a katar where the hilt has been cast, the sound is very short.

Jens

[Andrew]

Welcome to the forum, Dr. Feuerbach. :)

[Rivkin]

It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago.


I'm sorry, may be I'm not getting something but:
I understand that magnetite will not make a difference, but taking in mind that iron melts at 1800K, and its Curie temperature is 1000K how it can have (in a liquid state) _any_ definite magnetization. If at 1000K the exchange can not hold these guys together, thermal energy should completely negate any infinitesmal influence that the Earth's magnetic field can possibly have on a liquid metall. Most of steels have Curie temperatures even lower than this, up to 300K and below for some non-corrosive nickel and other steels.

What do you mean by "iron particles" in the _liquid_ ? Domains ? Individual spins ? Non-uniformities of a liquid state ?

[Ann Feuerbach]

Perhaps the ingot does not have a magnetic alignment. :confused: I do not know of any experiments done on the archaeomagnetism of iron objects because for archaeomagnetism to be studies, the object must be in situ since firing. Archaeomagnetism is based on the principle of Thermoremanent magnetism (TRM). When a material containing iron such as clay, is heated to above 700 C (1290 F) the iron particles in the clay align to face magnetic north. The direction and intensity of the magnetism of the kiln or hearth is measured to give the date. I assumed that the same principle would have applied to the crucible steel. All the literature I have read just refers to "iron particles". Perhaps I am wrong and the ingot would not have had a TRM. As I said, I must do some more research on this. I must point out that having TRM and being magnetic are different things. As a side not, I have noticed that many archaeological slags with high iron content and iron lumps, that one side is definitly attracted to a magnete while the other side definitly repels.
Ann

[Rivkin]

Neither ignot nor iron objects nor any objects would have any magnetization when heated above Curie temperature.

What TRM is, is when cooled _slowly_ the object that in general is macroscopically isotropic will be magnetized along the Earth's magnetic field (with some exceptions).
I think that magma is Fe3O4 or something like this, and it can move around without loosing its magnetization, so the TRM happens when it's actually very hot, but I'm not quite sure about it.Very primitive discussion is located here:
http://www.moorlandschool.co.uk/earth/magnetism.htm

[Rivkin]

Again - magnetic properties of a macroscopic iron is a tremendously complex problem, that can be approach with numerics.

I'm not a specialist (so I wish to be corrected by ones), but:

Local magnetic structure depends on the crystalline lattice (unobtainable in normal conditions "diamond" iron for example is even anti-ferromagnetic), including stress, grain size etc. There are dozens (!) of phases that correspond to basically chemically similar steels that have different crystalline structure (and btw hardening is the way to obtain a metastable crystalline structure).
These lectures notes can be of help:
http://neon.mems.cmu.edu/laughlin/pdf/252.pdf
btw austenite is paramagnetic.
It will greatly depends on local chemical decomposition.
It's going to greatly depend on how uniform and fast the cooling is (uniform cooling leads to permanent magnetization alongside the local magnetic fields)
In general there are some companies who measure conductivity and magnetic permeability in order to undestand how uniform their steel is. I don't want to refer to non-publicly available papers, so:
http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/MMTA-0403A-965/$FILE/MMTA-0403A-965F.pdf?OpenElement

Now to the question "what happens to a sword":
1. Swords are intrinsicly anisotropic due to their shape.
2. They are usually completely non-uniform in their magnetic properties due to nonuniformities of steel they are made off, and nonuniform cooling (first of all - nonuniform quenching).

Before I've the patterns of the dagger that were shown here I believed that such patterns can be produced by a weird external field. Now I think that because they are so damn non-uniform, and most of the dagger is not magnetized at all, the structure of this dagger should be tremendously non-uniform by itself, and I believe that conductance or X-Ray tests can prove that.

Now to what happens to swords when they lie in Earth. I thought about who would've been interested in this, and realzied that mine detector peoples are.
And indeed one can read a very interesting pamphlet over here:
http://neon.mems.cmu.edu/laughlin/pdf/252.pdf]

one should keep in mind that they are interested in a dipole moment i.e. the magnetic field procuded by objects very far away from the object itself, so it's much more uniform and depends on Earth's magnetic field in a much more direct way (since those guys quetly cool down underground), but we are interested in a local magnetization - quadrupole and up moments, that create these beautiful patterns.

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thanks. Lots of food for thought!

[Rivkin]

You are welcome.

Btw, the thing I always wondered about archaeomagnetism people - do you take in mind only the total magnetization and connect it to the strength of the Earth's magnetic field at the time of making of the object, or you actually use oomf/rkmag :) to see how the object with such chemistry and shape would react to the applied magnetic field of such strength ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Ann,
I would like to also welcome you to our forum, and to say what an honor it is to have you join us. I have had your outstanding work "Crucible Damascus Steel"for some time now, and it is brilliantly written!
For someone such as myself who is fascinated with history, yet lost with the complexities of physics, science and technology, it is an entirely readable and well crafted blend of history with well explained technical details.

This thread, as well as that of meteoric iron, have really become high profile and I am delighted that Jens posted them, as the knowledge and discussion has become irresistable! Aside from your extremely interesting article, most discussions on these topics can be quite dry to most of us in the lay world....but this thread keeps getting better, and your joining us is outstanding!

All the best,
Jim

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thank you Jim for your kind praise. Believe it or not, I was condemed by my PHD supervisor for not writing "academic" enough. I think that means big words and complicated sentence structures! However, my Russian friends said they like it because they can actually read/translate it easily. I always thought that the was the point of academic writing. Obviously I am not of the elitest academic type. I have so much more to add for the book that could not be put in the PhD
As to archaeomagnetism testing. I believe that the process involves carefully measuring the angle of declination as well as intensity and direction before it is removed from the ground, and then again in a special chamber to eliminate outside forces. I do not recall off hand how much the objects make up is involved.

[Mare Rosu]

OK ALL
I said I was winding down on my part of this thread started by JENS, and after reading
Ann and RIVKIN input on this magnetic stuff I should have stopped last week! :confused: Do all you follow their exchange? Man that is some heavy stuff. Anyway I said I would do as FEARN suggested and acquire a magnetic knife holder and zap a carbon blade.
I used a Case butcher knife, as was in contact with the magnetic holder for approximately five minutes, the pictures show that the blade did take magnetic profile with three pols.
I also took a picture of the Mysore dagger with four compasses on the blade to show you that it has the four changes all at the same time.
Gene

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ann,
That is exactly what is great! You are able to discuss material that is typically pretty involved and technical and integrate fascinating historical data, which makes it possible to understand :)
The original course of this thread was to try to discover how extensively lodestone was involved in the wootz in blades. In some of the material we discovered it seems that it inadvertantly occurred in the raw material from Hyderabad, which remained in certain janbiyya blades found in Arabia.

The ensuing discussion here has been fascinating, and I think I've learned more than in any science class I ever took! ( as far as I can remember...the little red schoolhouse ya know!!:)

Gene,
You better not bail out on us here!!! :) You have been doing an incredible job of scientific experimentation, I think the first of this type I can recall. What you are doing presents some excellent hands on perspective for some of the somewhat complex ideas that have come up. Thank you for following through on this !!! Outstanding work!

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, you are doing excellent with the compasses – tell me did you empty the shop :D?
Allow me just one question, when you show the blade with the compasses, it seems as if the magnetism north-south is farther away from each other than the magnets on the knife holder – is that so?

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
You are very astute MR. JENS :)
I failed to take a picture of the knife on the magnetic holder at the tip end.
I placed the knife on the holder in two different places that is why you see two areas of magnetic fields and not just the one, both times were approximately five minutes each time with the tip end placement being the last one.
I thing the Case knife picture was different in that the knife profile came out very well while on the Mysore dagger just the magnetic fields are shown.
You ask about the compasses, yes I had to go to two different stores to get them, I tried to get all of them to be the same but could not find four just alike.
One other thing JENS, is that if you look closely at the Mysore dagger with the four compasses on the blade you will see that the tip end compasses is pointing North not South. I do not know why that happened as I did not notice it myself until I posted the pictures, another mystery on the never ending quest for information on Magnetic Weapons! :)
JIM
I thank you for your comments and will of course stay around as this thread is now becoming a college course for the uninformed (me).
With folks like you and ANN, as well as RIVKIN and I must also add
FEARN for his input/suggestions ( I think he is getting all of his "smarts" from his mother! :D ) it is hard not to learn from all of this. I also think it is a very interesting subject and not well understood. I do "blame" all of this on JENS, why cant he just read an not ask all of these hard questions? :D
Gene

[Ann Feuerbach]

This is all such great stuff. :cool: It will take me awhile to absorb it all and figure out what it all means! I got someone lined up with homemade ingots any suggestions of how to test them? RIVKIN could you suggest any suitable methods?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, you really had me laugh aloud, I guess that you did not get a discount price, since you had to buy them in two different stores – if you ‘only’ buy two or three compasses a one store, it is harder to discuss the price – although I think a camel dealer would have :rolleyes:.

Ann, would it be possible for you to show a picture of one of the ingots?
If it looks like I think, it is like round bread, being thinker in the middle. Would that not make a difference when trying to make them magnetic? Also, if the ingot is round, how would the magnetism be at the ‘sides’? Would it not be different if it is longish :confused:?

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
I have an wootz ingot and it is round/dome shaped, and I will take a picture of it and I also have a broken flat wootz bar/ingot all gotten from Artzi and I take a picture of that one also.
ANN
let me know what you want me to do as for as applying a compass on them,( I do have a supply of them! :) )
The bars/ingots have not be subjected to any magnetic fields by me.

I am glad to have you at bat as you sure are one heavy hitter :D .
Gene

[B.I]

this post is way over my head, but am enjoying the non-participating observation.
dr ann, its great to have someone of your knowledge and passion on board. i am assuming from your article, knowledge and background that your doctrate is related to your current studies. the only reason i ask, is that i have this knee problem in cold weathers.... :)
gene, you dont fail to bowl us over with your ingenuity. not sure what you'll come up with next, but will hide in case there are explosions.
well done jens, for starting and carrying this discussion. i still havent got a clue whats going on but its all fun!

[Ann Feuerbach]

I do not have the ingot...they are in Germany, I think. I was just wondering if they had any natural polarity or magnetic properties. My friend is willing to test them. As I have mentioned before, I have not done any research on this so my knowledge of magnets etc is very limited (for the moment at least). Depending where they were made, the ingots can range from light bulb shaped, to cone shaped, to elongated, to egg like, to puck shaped. Depends on the crucibles interior shape.
Technically my Doctorate is in Archaeometallurgy (the study of ancient metals, yes...obscure). PhD was titled: Crucible Steel in Central Asia: Production, use and origins. So I have been working on the topic for a while, but there is still so much to learn! But I really am more of an Archaeological Scientist, as I also do conservation, glass, glazes, and ceramics...but all this inorganic stuff is the same to me. I don't do bones, so can't help with that knee :) . I wish I had the money of a medical doctor! I got the same student loan debts as one! :eek:

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
Is this the type of wootz ingot you were referring to, the round one?

Ann
you can have both wootz ingots for your testing if you want them, no string attached. and they are here in the USA ( some think Georgia is not however in the USA. but it is :) ) As you can tell from the pictures that the wootz ingots are neutral with no magnetic fields as all the compasses are pointing North.

B.I.
I thought that JENS was the mind reader of the forum. Your comment about blowing up things. When I left my old Laboratory position and took the chief Health Physic position at a Nuclear Power Plant, my old Plant Manager told
my replacement that " if Gene hasn't blown up he lab by now it will never be blown up", and that sir is the truth! So you also have the mind reading ability! :D
Gene

[Mare Rosu]

JIM
Way off the subject of this thread however your comment to
Ann about her great writing skills reminded me of a time a long ago when I was involved in helping write a paper on the Nuclear water chemistry at a Nuclear Power plant.
The words that I used were not acceptable, reason was that the paper had to be written to the most knowledgeable person in the field and had to be written "over his head", all for impression sake and not to convey any information/knowledge to the lay public.
Ann has the ability to convey information to us dummies ( me that is) and I thank her as well as you for it, you also have the ability to not only convey information in understandable terms but to also smooth the feathers of the forum folks from time to time.

Will be back on subject matter when I return from taking my wife to the SEC woman's basketball tournment.
Be back next week
Gene

[Rivkin]

This is all such great stuff. :cool: It will take me awhile to absorb it all and figure out what it all means! I got someone lined up with homemade ingots any suggestions of how to test them? RIVKIN could you suggest any suitable methods?

The problems I see is that:
1. The magnetization depends on two unknown factors - how non-uniform the steel is and what kind of fields the sample was exposed to. Lighting, wielding machines and subways all produce significant fields, capable of magnetizing pieces of iron.

So at least two different experiments should be condacted, unless you are interested in non-uniformities alone. Then the reasonable thing is to ask a steel metallurgist, but I think they actually measure permeability - they take not very large field, apply it to the sample and see what kind of magnetization is produced - it's supposed to be uniform if for example you apply the field along the easy axis (parallel to the sword?), but only if the sample itself is uniform.

Another way is to use X_Ray scattering or conductance or chemical tests - I think all these techniques are been used in the steel industry.

another interesting thing would be to try to achieve the true ground state in the sample by heating it up and cooling it down in the absence of external fields, with probably some random ac fields being applied to the body.

Concerning shape-dependent demag factors, there are programs like rkmag and oomf that allow one to simulate the magnetizations, so you should get the approximate picture of what kind of state you should have.

2. To Mare Rosu:

Thanx for the pictures,
The thing I would consider to be interesting is a conductance test. I don't think it can fire up with a simple resistometer, but it can be that if you place probes at about 5mm from each other on the dagger and move them alongside the dagger's surface that you will be able to see a significant change in the resistance along some set of points, which is possibly can be connected to the changes in the metall itself.

The problem is that not all steels are ferromagnetic, but they are all conductors, so unlike magnetism, you should not see a lot of difference.

P.S. I'm not a steel guy and not an experimentalist, so I really should not give any advices.

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Jens Nordlunde]

I always thought ingots were like the round one you show Gene, but after having read Ann’s article in Minerva Magazine No. 13, issue 4, 2002, I was wiser, ingots can be found in many shapes and sizes, the ones made in Merv weighted according to Ann’s article about 2 kg.
Gene how many different ingots do you have, and do they have the same weight?
Is there any writing or marking on them? I remember to have seen a picture of a round ingot with some writing on it.

Ann, do you know if the shape of the ingots was a kind of ‘trademark’ for a region?
Would the kind of clay used, ‘porcelain’ clay vs. other types of clay, have any influence on the ingot?
Maybe we should start another thread on ingots.
Somewhere I saw, that in one of al-Biruni’s (973-1048) books, I think it must be in Kitab al-Hind that he describes iron/iron production(?) in India. Do you know if it is in this book?

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is the link to the wootz bar I had and made it into a Bowie by Al Pendray and also tested by Verhoeven. The end with the inscription is still with Pendray, at least it was the last time I saw him.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002326.html
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, the ingot you show on the link seems to be round and flat. The one I saw a picture of was shaped like the round one you show on a picture on this topic, but larger - I think. The writing was on top of it, and looked, as I recall it, like the writing on the one you show on the link.

Jens

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thanks Gene for the generous offer! :) I will take you up on it as soon as I have time to spend doing research. Right now they would just be used as paper weights, until I finish lecturing this term. I will be looking for ingots and blades to include in the book. Where did you get the ingots from?

[Jens Nordlunde]

A small knife I have, in a scabbard together with a katar, is very magnetic, but the katar is not.
The picture to the left shows the tip of the blade, and the one to the right the compass at the base of the blade. The small knife is made in the first quarter of 1600, the katar is newer.

[Rivkin]

When magnetic moments are positioned alongside a line (good approximation for thin swords), there are basically two stable configurations - all magnetic moments are oriented along the line, parallel to each other, or they are all perpendicular to the line, and anti-parallel to each other, i.e. +-+-.

What you have most likely shows that you physically have different steels (most likely phases or chemistry) at the tip and for the rest of the blade, so you've these two macrodomains anti-parallel to each other.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Rivkin, thank you for your answer. I understand what the words, but I have a feeling, that I don't understand the whole meaning. I understand, that when we have come as far as we have, and want to go further, the language is likely to get more complicated. Is it possible for you to explain it in another way?
Here is a picture of the katar and the little knife.

[Rivkin]

In a very approximate manner:

When magnets are dropped into a narrow, long box, they naturally prefer either to align all parallel to each other parallel to the long side of the box, or anti-parallel to each other (with anti-parallel polarities) and perpendicular to the long side of the box. In both cases the magnets will lie parallel to the magnetic field created by other magnets.

So your configuration is most likely due to the case that at the tip you have some anisotropy , most likely due to changes in steel's chemistry or physics (phases).

Just my 2c.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Andrew, thank you for making this tread a sticker. Some collectors collect weapons and keep it at that, a lot of others are also interested in the ‘background’ story, how was the ingots made, why did the pattern appear/disappear, why did smiths have difficulties in forging the ingots, why are some of the blade magnetic, things like this line. I think the thread ‘Magnetic weapons’ answers a few of these questions, and hope we can get more questions answered in the future.

Thank you Rivkin, for ‘translating’ you mail for me – I think I now understand what you mean.
The ‘uncomplicated’ subject ‘magnetism’, has proved itself to be anything but uncomplicated, but I find the discussion very interesting, and hope, the other members do too – I for one has learned quite a lot, although I did not understand all the mails.

Jens

[Andrew]

Hi Jens. Like many of us, I've been following this thread with interest, if not with complete comprehension. ;)

The technical information contributed by posters like Rivkin and Dr. Feuerbach (and others!) is outstanding. Gene's "field work" has been terrific as well.

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
In an earlier post I stated that the tip end compass was pointing in the wrong direction, and I did not know why.
I think I have an explanation for the confused compass.
While I was doing the Case knife test that was suggested by FEARN I inadvertently got the compass to close to the magnetic knife holder and it switched the needle magnetic field, to where outside the house the needle pointed South instead of North.
I did demagnetize the compass using a demagnetizer and then re-magnetized it back to "normal".
The moral of this story is be careful with your compasses and strong magnetic fields from any source.

ANN
Your most welcome on the wootz ingots/bar. Just let me know when you are ready for them. :)
You also asked about where I got the wootz ingots. All of the items came from Oriental-Arms, Artzi. My first wootz ingot, the one that has the inscriptions on it was reportedly to have come from the Alwar armory.

RIVKIN
I did try to determine the conductance of the blade for any variances but the meter I have is just not sensitive enough to detect any change along the blade.
I did find something unusual, the cast bronze? hilt has a ~1 Meg Ohm resistance from the blade to the hilt end, indicating some sort of resistance between the two. :confused:
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene you have lost me - way out in the wilderness - do you think you can find me again?
What does - '~1 Meg Ohm resistance from the blade to the hilt end, indicating some sort of resistance between the two.' mean?
Really, the whole thing is so easy, so why do you explain it in such a difficult way - sorry - I think have an idea why. :o .

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
I do not ask hard questions. You are the one that started all of this "Magnetic Weapons" hard question stuff :p
What I am saying is that the metal handle is not directly connected electrically to the blade there is a one million ohm resistance between the two. In other words the hilt is not conductive to the blade, it is insulated form the blade so much so that if you were to energize the blade and you were to hold just the hilt you would not feel the anything from the blade being energized. Just another mystery of the dagger I call Mysore.
I hope this get you back out of the woods we need you here to ask the hard questions :)
Yes, your idea/thinking has merit, I have said before you are very astute :rolleyes:
Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the ‘translation’ Gene. I am still a bit confused, but on a higher level :rolleyes:.
Does the insulation also mean anything when it comes to magnetism?
My questions can’t be that difficult to answer, as most of them have been answered :p.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
I have failed to follow up on my closing part of this great thread of yours.
I have no idea as to what effect if any the insulation of the hilt has on the weird magnetic properties of the dagger I call Mysore.

I also stated I would take some pictures of the reversed pointing compass (points South not North), caused by the strong magnetic field of the knife holder in the test suggested by FEARN.
The first picture shows the South pointing needle and the second one is after I demagnetized it and magnetized it back to normal and the third picture is the little demagnetizer I used for the process. The little hole is to place a blade of screwdriver into to make the blade magnetic.

I must commend you on this excellent idea you had on the question of "Magnetic Weapons". It was for me a great learning process and also great fun, a hard to beat combination!
I just hope you did not get to upset with me on my Southern kidding to you on the "hard questions" comments, I made, all in jest, all in jest. :D
You did good! :)

[Andrew]

Gene,

Your dagger (Mysore) is fantastic. Thank you for sharing it, and your results.

Great thread.

Andrew

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, I did not, quite honestly, think this thread would be as big as it is. Although it was a surprise to me, there have been many most interesting posts. Your experiments, your pictures and your humour has made sure, that the thread did not end up being too dry – thank you very much. Also thank you very much to all the other contributors for valuable information’s.

It was very nice of Andrew to make it a sticky, as I think many more than the contributors have been reading on the thread and learned, that there is more to a sword/dagger than a blade and a hilt.

Jens

[Battara]

Hey Jens, what type of knife is that next to the katar and how old is it?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Battara,

The katar shown has a funny history. I got it almost thirty years ago, in England I think, and a year or two ago I showed a picture of it to a friend, shortly after he came back with the following story, after having visited a friend of his, who has some books about English cutlers. They agreed that it was hardly an Indian mark on the little knife – but it could be English – so they started to look through the books: The small knife has a cutlers mark in the blade. The mark belonged to John Jencks, 1576-1625. He got his cutlers mark in London 1606-7. He was born in Blackfriars and died in the Tower of London. His mark was a thistle and a dagger.

For further study see: J.F.Hayward: English Cutlery. Victoria & Albert Museum, 1957. Masterpieces of Cutlery and the Art of Eating. Victoria & Albert Museum, 1979.

I forgot the cutlers mark.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In the book ‘The Arms and Armour of Arabia’, Robert Elgood quotes G.C.M. Birdwood, who in 1880, in ‘The Industrial Arts of India’ wrote: ’20 miles east of Nirmal, and a few miles south of the Shisha hills, occurs the hornblended slate or schist from which the magnetic iron used for ages in the manufacture of Damascus steel, and by the Persians for their swordblades, is still obtained.’

Further more it is mentioned, that the steel was superior to the English, and even to the best Swedish steel.

Nirmal is situated about 280 miles from Hyderabad – should anyone star to wonder where it is.

If the steel, which Birdwood refers to, is lodestone, one of my earlier questions is answered: ‘Was lodestone used for weapons?’ The answer must be yes – definitely.

But it was not all lodestone, which is/was magnetic, it took a lightening to make it magnetic. If a lightening hit a lodestone ore, would the whole ore be magnetic – or only part of the ore?

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jens,

This is going off topic, but I think that, if you put the lodestone on a float (for instance, a piece of cork or wood) then it would float quite easily.

Fearn
Hi Fearn,
Yesterday I saw that the compasses were made like a fish (hollow I guess) swimming on oil.

Jens

[Radharc 59]

Hello all,

Jens suggested I check out this thread, and it's quite interesting. I am a custom knifemaker, and do everything from stock removal to forging blades, to hand forging my own Damascus (pattern welded) blades on occasion. I harden them myself, using various media, and get good results. However, I do not perform any specific processes to induce magnetic fields in any of them.

The topic made me curious, so I grabbed a compass and moved it along an assortment of my knives. The results were widely varied. Some hardly moved the needle, some made it spin wildly, and some spun it in one direction, then back in the other. Not sure what this says about the topic and folks' opinions, but it seems, for me at least, to simply be a random phenomenon.

Just my 2 cents.

Michael
www.radharcknives.com (http://www.radharcknives.com)

[PUFF]

Interesting thread, indeed. I had forged a strong magnetic tanto blade too. It doesn't show any magnetic property until I heat treated. I accidentaly tempered it on a hot plate. The hot plate was for laboratory purpose with a magnetic stiring device. After tempered, the blade has so strong magnetic property that it can pick up a few 3 inches nails.

[Rick]

This phenomenon is also sometimes exhibited in stainless steel restaurant silverware of low to moderate quality ; the stuff is just stamped from sheet metal ; go figure .. :confused:

[Radharc 59]

Huh. Peculiar for sure. It may very well be, in knives at least, relative to the heat treatment processes. You mess with the magnetic field, indeed, that's the simplest way to know when a steel is at the correct temperature to quench it, in order to harden the steel. It's called the critical temperature, and when it is reached, the steel undergoes a structural change, as evidenced by the fact that it loses it's attraction to a magnet run along the hot blade. When it's up slightly past 'non-magnetic', depending on the steel, you quench it.

As an aside, I align my quench tank so that the blade is pointed towards magnetic North, and quench them held horizontally, moving them back and forth in a stabbing motion. Some claim that the mag N thing is voodoo, but my blades universally harden up well, with almost no warpage whatsoever. So, it works for me. LOL!

Michael
www.radharcknives.com (http://www.radharcknives.com)

[katana]

..... just a thought.
It may be interesting to get photos of the 'lines of magnetism' for some of the swords, knives and daggers mentioned in this thread. By placing white paper over the blade (which is placed on a non magnetic background), and then sprinkling iron particles on the paper. Lines of magnetic force will appear, as the iron filings align with the field (magnetic) that surrounds the blade. Assuming the possibility that some of the magnetic properties of the blades were deliberate, it might help to see what patterns are produced and aid ideas as to why this is done.

One other thought is, blood is highly concentrated with iron (in haemoglobin), seeing as most blades were used or designed to 'draw blood' perhaps there’s a connection there.........

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Katana,
Maybe you should go back to the start and look through the mails - then you will see that it has been done.

Jens

[katana]

That'll teach me not to skip through threads, my apologies. :o

[Jens Nordlunde]

Don't worry, I do it now and again as well:).

Jens

[Rivkin]

Attached is a numerically simulated magnetization in 15x2cm FeNi sample, rapidly cooled from Curie temperature.

a. The magnetization is parallel to the local direction of the magnetic field, therefore the paper and iron dust would procuce a similar picture if placed on top of this sample.

b. Equilibrium configuration is a result of such things as a competition between exchange and dipole-dipole interactions for a given shape.

c. The loss of precise magnetization is more or less a smooth function of temperature. Since Fe has Curie temperature of about 1000K (700C) it is not that noticable at the room temperature, but becomes an essnetial issue when you heat any sample to 500-600C. Initial magnetization, i.e. whether magnetized or unmagnetized iron has been used, becomes at this point mostly irrelevant.

d. The attached simulation was performed in the absence of external fields. Earth's magnetic field is truly irrelevant since it is extremely small; on the other hand the presence of other magnets like magnetized anvil and so on could have made the magnetization to be more uniform.

[Rivkin]

Richard Burton in his "book of the sword" tells us that ancient greeks believed magnets to posess healing properties and weapons, made from magnets to be extremely deadly.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Rivkin,

I just saw your last two mails. No 114 I only understand part of, but that is not your fault, and what I understand is interesting. The last mail made me remember something from my childhood – I was told that if someone were cut with a magnetic knife, the wound would heal very slowly, if at all. The Indians seemed to mean that weapons made of lodestone, had a special meaning/force, as did many of the other peoples living in the area.

[Rivkin]

Thank you very much,

Here is what I found rereading my books:

Adzhaib Ad'Dunia "The miracles of the world"
"Indians have a miracle steel... Magnets do not attract it...If you make a sword out of it and kill someone with it, no blood will spill, the arrows made from it can penetrate stone, it does not get hot in fire... It is used to make swords of indian rulers... they do not export it, searching all the traders for it when they leave..."

[Jens Nordlunde]

I tried a search for the book, but without any result. Can you tell more about the book?

Sounds like a strange metal, I wonder what he was referring to?

[Ann Feuerbach]

All very interesting. Thanks Rivkin for the reference...I will try to get it.
I am presently further looking into the "receipes" used for crucible steel production and the symbolism of the ingredients (rather than the strick material science of the ingredients). The use of magnetic ores, meteorites etc are all interesting additions. I am currrently trying to find out the symbolism of coral, as it is sometimes an ingredient.

[Jeff D]

From The Complete Dictionary of Symbols in Myth, art and Literature by Jack Tresidder
"Coral
Linked with healing power - an association based on tree, water and blood symbolism. In Classical mythology, the Mediterranean red coral grew from the blood of the Gorgan Medusa; after Perseus had rescued Andromeda from Cetus, the sea monster it is said that he laid the Gorgan's head down and immediately the sea weed turned into coral. Vasari illustrates this on a cabinet door of the studiolo of Francesco I (Palazzo Vechio, Florence) to indicate the precious contents. Coral was also thought to be a protection against evil. In Roman times, amulets of coral were thought to stem bleeding and protect children from illness or the fury of the elements, and coral necklaces were also popular medieval talisman for children. At one time, coral decorated Celtic weapons and helments. It was prized in India where jet black coral was used to make sceptres."

This is Eurocentric but maybe of some use to you.

All the Best
Jeff

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thanks Jeff, it is a start. Interesting how it is said to stem bleeding.

[Rivkin]

The only reference to coralls I remember is from Maqrizi who says that coralls are like steel in the way that like Allah made steel soft for David so he would make mails, coralls are a stone but can be made soft to make jewelry. Something like this :).

I did not like the "miracles of the world". It just has this small segment about weapons, the rest is about other miracles.

[Ann Feuerbach]

Thanks Rivkin, very interesting reference. One never knows where one will find gems of information. :)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi All,

I have not reread all the posts on this old thread, so I don’t know if it was here I mentioned that Jahangir ordered a dagger made of a meteoric stone, but I have found a picture of Jahangirs meteoric knife dated 1621 AD, it is in Freer Gallery of Art, Smithsonian Institution, Washington D.C., and it is showed on page 82 in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004. The article was written by Robert Elgood (pp 76-98)

[tom hyle]

JENS

What I am saying is that the metal handle is not directly connected electrically to the blade there is a one million ohm resistance between the two. In other words the hilt is not conductive to the blade, it is insulated form the blade so much so that if you were to energize the blade and you were to hold just the hilt you would not feel the anything from the blade being energized. Just another mystery of the dagger I call Mysore.

Gene


Might I suggest that the handle is filled/adhered with pitch, which is not a good electrical conductor? I often imagine copper alloy hilts being cast directly onto the blade, and it certainly has been done, but sticking the two together with pitch seems more prevalent.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I am sorry that I can't comment on the subject, as I don't know anything about it, but I found the dagger very interesting.
Jens

[Archit Patel]

Hi,
I have had similar experience and I tried "Adding" magnetic property to a hand forged dagger. I had used an old file for forging the dagger. After Forging, Initial grinding and heat treat ment, I honed it with carborundum stone (400-450 grit) with hand. Blade size was about 8.5 inches, and 1.5 inches wide. I honned it for about 12 hours in a span of one month.
It developed strong magnetic property in the center of the blade. I have not checked the calibration though but similar method did not worked on the blades forged from Leaf Srpings.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Archit Patel, and welcome to the forum :).


I know that I started this monster thread, and when I did I did not imagine what it would develop into, but what I do know is, that many of those participating enjoyed it very much, and at the same time also learned a lot. This is what we all hope, to enjoy ourselves and to learn – so it was a good and interesting thread.

I don’t know much about metallurgy, so my guess may be totally wrong, but I would thing that the difference between the knife made out of a file, and the one made out of a Leaf Spring is, that the ‘file’ knife was treated with a grinding stone, and the Leaf Spring knife was probably not, or at least not so intensively. Is that correct?

Jens