Balinese kris from Polish Museum

[wolviex]

This is next kris from poor collection of National Musuem in my city. This time I tried to find some information about it for myself, according to the sites you recommended me in previous post, and through the databes of this forum also.
Anyway I have some question about this piece, and I hope you'll be able to help me :)

The sheath is made of wood, covered with repoussed, gilt, open-worked brass plate. There are two rock crystals set as eyes, cut very well, I could even say perfectly. The head is a little damaged becouse of lack of two rivets, at the base. There is only one left with rock crystal (probably?) as well.
What I saw, most of sheaths of this type, were covered with plate which were ornamented with repousse, engraving but not with openwork. From European view I could judge it as made quite good or even very good. The floral design contrasts with black velvet under the plate (except the upper part where velvet is lost). I can say it is made very precisely, because of "shading" with little, very little and fine made lines. Take a look at close-up picture - this flower is only 1 cm long. But the flowers itself could be made better I think and I would judge it as class B. It's only European view, probably abstract from regional opinion - so what do you think about it? The sheath is 42,7 cm long (16,8'')

The Mendak is very small, different from what I saw in similiar krises. But again I'm too inexperienced...

The hilt (ukiran) is of typical Balinese type I think. Are they all so thick? Its measurements are: 12 cm long (4,7'') and 16 cm (6,2'') of girth !!! I can barely fit it to my "normal European size hand" ;).

And the blade. It's 35,1 cm long (13,8''). I don't know what to think about it. It looks for me almost as damaged with some acid or corrosion? But maybe it just the way it should be? I'm appealing to your great knowledge. BTW - Ganja is 7,8 cm wide (3'').

And few more questions:
1. What is the name of this god/idol at the sheath. Stone's glossary calls it BONASPATTI. Somewhere at this forum you called it Raksa ulu/Raksa hulu, sometimes just as Rice deity and, at last, more often KALA, "symbol of the rainbow leading people to heaven". So what is the truth?

2. Wood: it's probably called peyet. My question is, what are this stains on it. At the warangka it looks very naturally, while at the ukiran it looks more like it was painted or something. I read somewhere a note about gold painting, maybe this is it?

3. I'm intrested in this floral design - what flowers this could be (European ones I could recognize somehow probably :) )

4. Typical question - is it good or is it bad :D - for me it's too hard to judge it properly in any way :)

Thank you in advance and best regards!

[wolviex]

next photos

[DAHenkel]

Wolviex - if this is "poor" then the Polsh National Museum must be a very rich place indeed. This is an extremely fine and old example of a Balinese keris with what is known as a topengan or "mask". There is considerable age to the piece, I'd say mid-19th century or perhaps earlier (for the dress) and the blade could be far older. Most classic "Balinese" blades are much more recent. The earliest examples resemble Javanese keris and this is an excellent example of that.

Topengan, for keris, are a fairly old innovation though very rare. They usually come from Bali (as your Museum's) although they seem to have originated in Java. We have at the ACM an example of a topengan (sans keris) that was recovered from a 15th c. Majapahit site in East Java.

The sheath is of course much later than the blade - again possibly mid-19th century and the hulu is a fine and typical example (cf. Hamzuri, both editions although I don't have the books handy so I can't give a page reference).

The only thing strange about this piece is that the oversheath (and topengan) is on backwards. Normally the topengan would be on the front of the sheath (port side by nautical reckoning). It appears a less than knowledgeable curator of old slipped it on backwards. It is an excellent example and from the looks of it in high grade gold as well.

An outstanding piece and one any museum would be proud to own.

[wolviex]

Thank you DAHenkel for this first reply. I must admit I liked this kris very much, but I didn't suppose it could be so good in your opinion. So now I'm waiting for others much more impatiently.
About "oversheath" - yes, you can be right about wrong orientation of this, take a look at third picture from the end, you can see the upper part doesn't fit perfectly to the sheath :)

And a "poor collection" - that does mean there are not many krises in National Musuem..., it doesn't mean they're not good :D

[nechesh]

Yes,this is certainly an extremely fine example of a gold Balinese over sheath and topengan, however, i would say it is a stretch to call this an extremely fine keris. The blade could be an old Bali blade or perhaps a Javanese one, but it is not very well made. It also appears to be gonjo iras (gonjo and blade are all one piece) which for me implies that when it was made corners were cut to lower costs. This is not the type of blade i would expect to see in this type of dress.Why they ended up together is anybody's guess. That being said the gold pendok and topengan are indeed beautiful and certainly worthy of museum display.
I believe the topengan is intended to be a demon, not a diety, ergo the fangs.
As Dave has suggested, you might want to remove the pendok and turn it around to the other side. For a minor restoration touch you could replace the material that is underneath it with a piece that covers the entire gandar. The wood of the gandar should not be showing through the carved floral work.

[wolviex]

Thank you for your replies so far. I want to remind some of my questions asked above: what about wood and floral design - any ideas??

Thank you in advance

[tom hyle]

OK, first; Of course, I can't be sure with a photo, but I think that's magic marker. I'm serious; that's what the black stuff on the handle is; tell me it's not? If it is, you might get it off with careful solvents or a sharp cabinet scraper without staining or cutting the wood, because there appears to be an original built-up clear finish under it, but you probably don't want to mess with that, under your particular relationship to the piece,as a curator. The black on the sheath is a typical naturally occuring pattern in the wood; it looks like it might be caused by a tree disease (like many interesting patterns), but I don't really know; some woods tend towards colourful localized mineral deposites, too.
I've seen that mask before, on the sheath of an heirloom k(e)ris of an Indonesian restauranteur in Pennsylvania. He said it was there to guard the blade against evil spirits.
I don't know that iras gonja/gonjo iras k(e)ris were traditionally made to cut corners. Admittedly especially with kris sundang, one sees some that are pretty fancy in other ways, if nothing else. It has been my impression that such is kris is ritually/magically different; it is not bounded like an ordinary kris, not divided from the holder, the world; would this make it spiritless allowing the spirit to escape? Or would this have to do with some sort of possession/trance state? Nothing solid, mind you; impressions.
I think where you see a sword type meant as a cheaper version of kris (and one without kris' legal, ethical, religious, social, and magical limitations, as well) is the forward-leaning pedang with the double-edged tip; sorry, but I can only remember its obsolete "Western" name at the moment; the sword formerly known as tempius. Also, with gunong, especially large gunong. Some of these have a very kris-like angling and curvature.

[Battara]

I think the mask is that of deity Bonispatti. The craftmanship on the gold is magnificent. Reminds me of that found on true Mongolian and Tibetan pieces. And that is a lot of gold, thick, not a thin sheet. Are those diamonds? This would make sense since diamonds supposedly conteract poisons. I thought the hilt would have some gold on it as well...... :confused:

[tom hyle]

I note a resemblance to a Phillipine (stylized) cobra pommel, which shape it also seems is sometimes used for sheath tips?....

[tom hyle]

Hmmm....the more I look at the dark part of the handle, the more I think it is some of that dark spotty grain, and was specially selected to be placed this way on this handle, to form a band around the middle. A nice piece of work, actually. The colour of the wood on the handle is not quite the same as that on the sheath, but that doesn't mean they're not the same specie, or that multiple species may show this.....it looks like a fungus.
You work in a museum. You mayby don't put that white writing on things anymore (?), but maybe you can tell us what it is and how to remove it?

[VANDOO]

THE WOOD IS NATURAL, THE PIECE SELECTED FOR THE HANDLE IS UNUSUAL IN HOW UNIFORM THE MARKING IS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN SPECIALLY SELECTED. I CAN'T REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE WOOD USED BUT IT IS A VERY DESIRABLE TYPE AND PROBABLY HAS SPECIAL PROPERTYS AS WELL AS BEAUTY. AS TOM POINTED OUT SOME WOODS HAVE PATTERNS AND COLORS CAUSED BY CERTIAN TYPES OF FUNGI, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS WHAT CAUSES THE PATTERNS IN THIS TYPE WOOD OR NOT.
THE METAL WORK LOOKS TO BE OF VERY GOOD QUALITY TO ME , I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED A LARGER MEDAK WITH STONE SETS BUT PERHAPS IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT CAME ORIGINALLY WITH THE BLADE. THE SMALL FLOWER YOU SHOW APPEARS TO HAVE HAD A STONE SET AT SOME TIME ARE THERE ANY OTHER SETS? I THINK THE BLADE IS OLDER THAN THE GOLD FITTINGS AND WAS IMPORTANT TO THE OWNER AND WAS GIVEN THE GOLD FITTINGS LATER. IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE THE STONES CHECKED TO SEE WHAT THEY ARE AS DIAMONDS WOULD INCREASE THE VALUE AND NEED FOR MORE INSURANCE. A BEAUTIFUL AND RARE KERIS AND GREAT PICTURES THANKS FOR SHAREING. :)

[wolviex]

Tom: thank you for your replies. I would like to reassure you, that white painting on the handle is not my work :). It was made many years ago, by my predecessors, and I'm sure you would be surprised, what ridiculous places on weapons were chosen to write an museum numbers. This is only white painting, and it's easy to wash off, so nothing to worry. But many weapons are defaced because of thoughtlessness :( and are in need of conservators.

I think that handle and upper piece of sheath are made of the same wood, but of different tint of colour. I can't be sure it is natural or because of former cleanings. You wrote this black stains looks like fungus, so they should be natural. They look more natural at the sheath, but on the handle they look more like painted, in places even like painted with some kind of band, moistened with dye, and wrapped around the handle. It looks like this, but it's only the feeling of inexperienced man. And this magic, well, it would be intresting, but if you're worry about white painting on the handle, than the vision of my person with the scraper gnashing on the kris, should bring you to heart attack :D ;)

Battara: this stones, I think, are rock crystals not diamonds. Well, you're next one talking about Bonaspatti/Bonispatti. But everyone have another idea about this deity. Anyway - what for was Bonispatti, or... what are his powers :) ?? What for the poisoned diamond were ??

[wolviex]

Vandoo:thank you. It would be great if somebody could find the name for this wood. So this stains are natural?!

Because you're second person who asked about diamonds, I'll ask in few days an expert are this rock crystals a diamonds :)

About the small flower - actually I doubt there could be any stone in there. It is 1 cm long and this little hole in it, is only 1mm big, and to shallow to put anything in there - or I'm just underestimating the art of indonesian craftsmen. :confused:

[nechesh]

Sorry guys, but i just have to say it again. This is NOT a particularly good keris. You all seem to getting blinded by all that beautiful gold. The pendok is indeed exquisite, but the more i look at it the more i am convinced that it wasn't made for this sheath (nor the sheath to fit the pendok) but is merely adapted to fit. Again, why these pieces have come together is open to opinion, but i maintain that they don't belong together. Note how badly the mask fits, how much it rises above the top of the sheath. And as Jose points out, wouldn't a dress like this most likely have a more elaborate hilt. This hilt is a fine example of it's type but very ordinary really. Everything in this ensemble is, in fact, grossly out shone by the gold pendok. It's like those IQ test questions they give you where they group a number of things and ask which one does not belong. What is out of place here?

[wolviex]

Thank you nechesh for your sincerity - you've just ruined my Sunday... :D just kidding...
So we got here very ordinary kris, with a little older blade, and superb, excellent, not-fitting-to-all-of these sheath. That's not to bad at all.

Waiting for more opinions
Best regards

[nechesh]

No Wolviex. not bad. :) In fact, i'll bet i could probably buy more than one nice keris with the profits from that pendok alone. ;) It is a very nice piece.

[John]

The wood looks to be pelet and the figure appears to be Boma, an earth guardian for warding off evil entities as Tom surmises. Sometimes seen with finger claws. An example could be seen in the book "Royal gifts from Indonesia".

[wolviex]

:confused: Bonispatti/Bonaspatti/Rice deity/Raksa/Kala :confused: are all these deities the same deity :confused: I'm getting really confused. Everybody call it in different way.

One more name and I'll use polling option of this forum :D

[DAHenkel]

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree strongly with most of the comments made to date regarding this keris.

Please note first off that this particular style of keris is a typical and well documented one in the Balinese stable and such hilts are the norm. Figural hilts do occur but they in fact are the exception rather than the rule with the godoan (gayaman) sheath style. Assuming that a relatively "plain" hilt style is incorrect and thus a later addition is completely unfounded. Just because the piece has a gold pendok does not dictate that it must therefore have a fancy golden hilt as well. In fact, as this example shows, quite the opposite was just as often the case.

Unlike we modern Philistines, who can't appreciate anything unless its studded with gold and precious stones, previous generations of keris lovers clearly had a great love for the qualities of wood. Note first of all the extraordinary precision and finess of the workmanship of the hilt and the rare beauty of the wood grain used to make it. (No Tom, its not magic marker)You will not find another one like it in a thousand. Juxtaposed against the flash and finery of the gold pendok, the wood stands up on its own and provides a contrast for and a foil to the precious metals. Sadly, this sort of subtlety is lost on most today.

There are several documented examples of kerises simmilar to the one Wolviex posted. Images in Hamzuri (1983) Fig's 11 - 14, pp 110-12 and Hamzuri (1984) pp's 33 and 43, (Note that the image on p. 33 is reversed due to an upside down negative, the same piece on p. 43 is correct) document a pair of examples in the Indonesian National Museum's collection, while Van Duuren's bibliography has another fantastic example from the Tropen on p. 72, which is also shown in the Orange Nassau book as well.

Topengan are generally held to be representations of the divine demon Kala, in some areas also refered to as Banaspati (pron. Bonaspati). Kala was a powerful protective figure believed to have been appointed by Shiva as a temple guardian.

As for the blade of this piece. Clearly it is of a far "inferior" quality of workmanship to some of the flashier examples of Balinese keris. That said, many of you seem to have forgotten the mystical side of keris belief and the fact that sometimes quite ordinary blades were held in extremely high esteem. Sometimes these were highly prized heirloom piece, or were believed to be of some considerable age or perhaps were held to be particularly powerful talismans. The quality of the workmanship of the blade is often - as it very well could be in this case - completely independent of the rest of the keris and assuming that such a keris is a fabrication completely misses the mark.

The one image posted that shows the fit of the blade is not perfect but does indicate a good fit. Perhaps Wolviex could post another picture or two showing the fit of the blade in the scabbard before we go assuming the piece is a re-fit. I'd be rather surprised in the case of this keris that a relatively small, early and more Javanese-like blade would be large enough to completely fill the cavity left by a more typical Balinese blade. Its rare enough to find a re-fit that works perfectly (although of course it must have happened, nor would we know it eh?) and in this case I suspect darn near impossible. Also, it would be interesting and useful to know when this keris entered the collection and whether it was an aquisition or a donation.

[wolviex]

Perhaps Wolviex could post another picture or two showing the fit of the blade in the scabbard before we go assuming the piece is a re-fit.

Yes, yes, yes. I'll do it. I wanted to do it earlier, but just forgot. There is something what should explain something, I hope. I'll try to do it tomorrow.

[John]

Was looking into a few more references and it does appear examples of this type have been overwhelmingly refered to as "Bonaspati" eg by Tammens, Jensen (Den Indonesiske Kris), and Stone. Duuren mentions Banaspati, a cannibal lord of the forest... Nevertheless similar masks/heads have been referred to as Boma or Kala elsewhere. Do a google on "Boma" and you'll see what I mean...

[nechesh]

Dave, you are, of course, right on many fronts. One thing i would like to see if Wolviex deems it a possibility, is the pendok put the proper way on the sheath. It just adds to the mismatched look of things the way it is. It would do no damage to the piece an would allow us to see if this pendok was really made for this sheath.
Now Dave, you are right, this keris could have some mystical attributes that made it's owner value it highly and indeed, he may have decided to honor it with this elaborately beautiful dress. The true value of any keris can ONLY be assessed by it's owner, plain and simple. That being said, i was reacting to the general gush of comments that said "beautiful keris". Not being the owner, knowing the history, etc. i can only respond to it from what i know and can see. I can only gauge this keris against the general criteria for what makes a good keris as we here in this community have discussed many times over. This appears to me to be (sorry wolviex, cover your ears :) ) a keris of inferior workmanship in only a fair state of condition. In my view, not a beautiful keris. You can certainly compare the dress of the keris on pg. 72 in van Duuren's Critical Bibliography, and your point about the hulu is well noted. Wolviex's example is a fine representation of this form, no doubt and as can be seen in van Duuren, an exceptable hilt for such a dress. But please don't compare the blades here. The example in van Duuren is a truely exquisite blade.Beautiful workmanship. The same can not be said for Wolviex's example. Any reference to mystical power is purely conjecture.

[Mick]

The wood is Pelet which when used by affectionatos needs no extra embellishment. Even the pieces in the treasure room at the museum in Jarkarta which are topped with hilts containing rose cut diamonds the size of my thumbnail show an open pelet front face although they are backed with a gold (pendock) for want of another word. The attached is a representive sample of fine Balinese Pelet.

[wolviex]

Mick: your sheath is beautiful, it's made entire with Pelet wood, while this from Museum has only wrangka made of this wood. ;)

Ok, few more precise informations.

One of the experts in museum was kind enough to check the stones on the pendok for me. He was looking, checking, microscoping, and he said this are VERY HIGH QUALITY ROCK CRYSTALS! Not diamonds, but very high quality rock crystals sounds not bad :D

Nechesh: I will refit the pendok if it is only possible. I won't do it alone, and I want a conservator to do it - he's got tools, experience, and he is an expert anyway. So this must wait, but if we will do it, I'll post a picture.

John: thank you for the Boma hint :). It's next name for the collection :D, but this time there are many more hits at google. And google don't lies...;) :rolleyes:

And here are the additional photos of the sheath. You can clearly see, that corners of the entrance to the sheath are piece on. DAHenkel, is this what you wanted me to show you?

[Mick]

Wolviex

I think that is just what Dave was looking for. The sheath shows that the front part of the opening was plugged and then recut for this piece. Therefore the sheath was not made for this keris. The rear portion is somewhat ambiguous.

Correct that; the rear portion also shows a plug, but the beat up area in front of it ends well before the original cutout.

[DAHenkel]

Precisely Mick.

Why this happened is a matter for speculation. Item of keris dress were often sold off or exchanged for various reasons. Economic distress etc. etc.

This we know.

What we don't know is why this blade was fitted to this particular sheath. There can be two possibilities.

One is that the dress was sold off to an "antique dealer" who refitted the blade for sale to a "tourist" or in this case, a museum curator it appears. Why this blade was chosen is a bit of a mystery. After all the dealer would stand to profit more by using a finer blade but perhaps he was relying or speculating on the ignorance of his clientele. :rolleyes:

The other possibility is that this was a more "traditional" exchange where one Balinese sold the dress to another. Perhaps someone wanted to dress this particular blade in finer clothing but saw the second hand dress as a better value than commissioning a new set.

The only clues we have are the relatively careful and neat job done to re-fit the blade, which was not always done, particularly for tourist keris. And of course, the blade itself.

I would contend however that there is more than meets the eye with this blade. It is not a "bad" keris in the normal sense of the word IMO. It has clearly got some age to it and has been well cared for in the normal way. The unusual aspects of this keris include the ganja iras and the curious "pitting" effect of one type of metal on the blade paticularly around the dapur area.

You must also understand that traditionally, ganja iras was neither common nor undesirable. Real, old keris ganja iras are quite rare although certainly not impossible to find and were considered to have special magickal properites. It is not just a "cheap shortcut" way of making a blade.

You must realise of course that I am not "defending" this blade on aesthetic grounds, though to an extent it does have that certain something that nice old blades can have when they're well looked after. What I am against is the notion that just because, to our Western eye this keris is not up to the standard of the dress, that this was necessarily so for the Balinese.

[wolviex]

Thank you all for help!
DAHenkel, your concrete and complex replies are very helpful. Writing about curious "pitting" effect you mean probably - let's call it - visible "ironmoulds". Maybe I'll try to post another picture of the other side of the blade, there, as you will see, this "pittings" are almost regular. Well, I don't think these are real corosion ironmoulds, do you think it's made with acid, any other ideas ??

And returning to my questions form the beginning of this thread. The hilt is very thick, that can barely fit to my hand. Are all the balinese hilts of this type so thick ? It's very uncomfortable, even if it was used only for representation purposes.

Thank you in advance!

[wolviex]

Photos I promised to post: another side of blade with visible, almost regular in some part of the blade stains/pittings. And close-up photo of one of them.

So any ideas what it could be, and how it was made? :confused:

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Gee, Wolviex I keep admiring how these nice Malay pieces come out of the Polish museums, I think I solved the mistery ... hmm I am wondering if some sort of Przewalski guy from your hometown fall for some Balinese erotic dancer and when she run away he got mad and try to find some local stuff to beat the crap out of her and then the European in him brought it all back to Polska ... :D lol , forgive me I got carried away by envy ...

[Ian]

Wolviex:

I refrain from commenting on keris because I am most ignorant with respect to these weapons. But that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?

Ian.

[wolviex]

that's a very interesting pattern you show on the blade. It reminds me of the "ladder" effect seen on some Indo-Persian wootz blades. Do you think the blade pattern here is caused by a similar forging process?
Ian.

Ian: that's what I'm trying to find out :). So now let's wait together, maybe one of our friends from "kris sindicate" will have some ideas about it :)

[Ian]

for word from the illuminati, there was a nice discussion before of Mohammed's Ladder (kirk narduban) and wootz blades here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000490.html

There is no reason I can see why the same pattern could not be created with pattern welded steel.

ian.

[DAHenkel]

I've been refraining from comment on this in the hopes that s/o with specific knowledge of keris metallurgy would chime in. Its an area in which I have no real specialist knowledge however, the curious consistency of the "pamor" metal on this blade suggests to me high silicate levels.

Could this then be meteoritic? It would certainly suggest a reason for the high esteem of this particular blade.

Empu Kumis! Where are you?

[tom hyle]

I think I've seen the ladder pattern from every culture that I've seen manipulate layered steel for pattern; Europe, N Africa, Tartaric, Hindoo, Chinese, Japanese, Oceanic SE Asian (not sure about the mainland, but I can hardly imagine it wouldn't....), and the more I see, the more widely I see steel manipulated for pattern wherever it is forged into blades (subsaharan Africa is the "blank" area; perhaps for lack of testing [the "African art" people invariably love the dark patina], perhaps for the legendary purity of the African iron thus not learning folding, etc.; thoughts on that one; very little real input. The c19 Ethiopian army spear I etched is quite homogenous, but other African blades I've seen display welding flaws and rust-etching that makes straight/straightish layering visible.). I've seen laddered pamor on quite a few k(e)ris. The wootz faction are probably correct that wootz/bulat is "true"ly the Damascus steel spoken of in old Europe; the "magical" (ie. different) steel of the East (this is nearly certain, as the other famous "Eastern" steel blade technologies like folding and welded edges, were also in common/general use in Europe, fading slowly during and after the 18thc.), but they are very likely dead wrong that only a wootz blade would be "truly" ladder of the prophet (BTW there are many expressions in many languages to refer to this religious symbol); certainly the same technique is used, in at least some of the same cultures, to make pretty much the same pattern on folded steel, and isn't it made in cloth and wood carvings, too, for that matter? Aside; I once had an old khoumiya with a lineal laminate blade that had been buffed in bands to imitate laddered steel. Faked pattern on what could now be viewed as "Damascus" steel. It was an older 20th piece, and a fakery of this sort was more likely for the native market, it seems to me....
BTW, I'm told that in Persia and/or Turkey it was a traditionally admired and sought after (and by no means universally achieved) goal to fit actually "40 steps", which is not so big a deal on a sword, though a lot of work, but on an 8" kard blade.....

[tom hyle]

You might want to check out the keris competition thread just posted.

[nechesh]

Wolviex, I wonder if you could provide us with a bit more information about this piece. Firstly, exactly where and when was it collected? Any chance the museum knows from whom it was obtained? Has the metal in the pendok and topengan ever been tested? Do we know for sure that it is solid gold is could it be plated? Have you ever had the pendok off the gander and looked inside? Have you found out any more about the stones in the eyes? Lastly, and this is directed at our keris group in general, is it possible that this hilt could not be Balinese at all, but the Madurese form of this particular style? It is shorter and fatter than the typical Bali form, which is exactly the way Madura style would be. It is also interesting to note that Madura is also known for the use of topengan on sheaths.

[wolviex]

Nechesh: I think I can't help much with my answers for this time.
1. TThis kris was collected just after the war, in 1946. Because of war, the history of this object is unknown :(
2. The metal never was tested. There is a chance it can be tested in special laboratory, but it's not so easy to get there. This is the only place like this in Krakow (maybe in Poland :confused: ), the queque is long, and testing expensive :(
3. I don't know if the gold was plated. I thought it is gilted brass, but tomorrow is a chance I'll show it to the expert who will be able to judge it better than me. Anyway, the head of the deity seems to be heavier and is much more thick then the rest of the metal on the sheath. Maybe it's pure gold or gilted silver or gilted copper - I don't know for sure :(
4. I didn't took the wrangka off beacuse it is glued so much, that I was worried not to destroy the wood. I know - you will probably say the wrangka was refited to the rest of the sheath. It is possible. As we can see on the pictures of others sheaths, many of them are made entire of pelet wood, while this one is made of simple wood with pelet wood wrangka. Am I going to far with presumptions?
5. The stones in the eyes are high quality, very well made and beautifully cut rock crystals - this is what "experts" say.
6. I don't know anything about Mandurese krises, so if you think this one is not Balinese, it would be good to discuss it with others forum mates, which I hope will be!

Best regards!!

[Henk]

Nechesh,

I'm glad that you mentioned the madura possibility. A few months ago I was in a famous auction house here in Holland. Offered for auction were two maduran keris with this kind of pendok with a bonaspatti mask covering the wrangka in this same way. Not gold but pure silver. Under the openworked pendok was a sleeve of silver to cover the gandar. In my opinion I agree with you that this golden pendok is placed on the backside of the scabbard and I think it had once a sleeve maybe from silver or gold under the pendok. Although the wrangka has balinese characteristics, I cann't get rid of the idea this piece is a madura keris. I think the ukiran is not original to this keris and should be replaced by a fine madura ukiran. For the eyes of the bonaspatti mask, I think they could be inten.

[wolviex]

Henk: if the ukiran isn't original was it matched because of wrangka, or do you think the wrangka isn't original too. Theye're similiar to each other, and even if they are of different tint, they look like "brother and sister" to me.

BTW, what do you mean "inten" - this word is stranger for every of my dictonaries ;)

[nechesh]

Wolviex, thanks for your response. I was really hoping you would know WHERE this keris was collected as well as when. As for testing for gold, i see no reason why you would need to go to a special lab to have this done. The test is common and easy and any competent jeweler should be able to handle it. As for the pendok being glued on, that's a surprise. Not a single keris in my collection is like this, i would imagine because the gandar needs to be changed from time to time as it takes far more abuse than the wrongko when the blade is taken in and out. This only leads me to further question whether this sheath was made for this pendok.
I am thinking less and less that this is a Bali keris at all. While the stylistic similarities between Bali and Lombok are well know, lesser recognized are cetain (though to a lesser extent) similarities in the Madurese style. As has been mentioned before, the topengan is also a form used in Madura. On pg. 49 of "The Kris" by van Duuren, there is a topengan example that he calls Bali OR Madura. he couldn't tell for sure. Also see Tammens, Vol. 2, pg 224, a keris noted as East Jawa. Madura is part of the province of East Jawa. In "Keris" by Hamzuri, pg 43 we see a wrongko and hilt noted as Madura. In "Royal Gifts From Indonesia", Wassing-Visser, pg 61, a keris noted as a Balinese type keris, but it was presented by Adiningrat VII of Madura to William I in 1835. It seems highly unlikely that a Madurese ruler would present a Bali keris to a dutch ruler. Jensen also shows a Madurese ladrang sheath with a similar topengan i fig. 94 of his book. I hope those with access to these reference books will check out these examples and comment.
We know that the Madurese made similar topengan. We know that they sometimes used a similar hilt form to Wolviex's example. We also know that this sheath was not made for this keris. The pendok is not fitted properly and since wolviex is worried about doing damage in removing it (i agree you should not chance that) we probably will never know if this pendok/topengan was even made for this sheath. I think the sheath itself might be the only thing that is Balinese. I believe the keris is most probably Madurese. Dave is right to note that some early Balinese keris can resemble Javanese, but this keris isn't THAT old. You just don't see gonjo iras keris before the 17thC (Except for keris sajen and keris buda) and by that time the Bali keris had taken on many of it's own stylistic features.
In regards to gonjo iras, both Dave and Tom mentioned their belief in this thread that there is some special mystical power to this form. Can either of you give any point of reference to these remarks? I must readily admit that my impressions that this was a way to cut costs is purely hearsay, though IMO, the information came from a very reliable source. I have checked all my own written resources and the internet, bit very little has been written on the subject. Don't get me wrong, as an owner of a nice early 19thC gonjo iras blade, i would love to find some evidence of mystical/magickal intention. But i also am not willing to make assumptions such as since there are less of them they must therefore have some special power. We will be spending years debunking the meteorite mythology, i'd hate to see new unproven legends of the gonjo iras start circulating. So, can either of you gentleman provide some sources for your information, or is it just something you heard somewhere?
As for gemstones, i don't think they are inten. If they are rock crystal, they are the clearest and most flawless cut quartz i've ever seen. And the color doesn't seem right. I suppose Zircon is a possibility. I noticed you put the word "expert" in quotations. Did a jeweler or gemologist have a look at these?

[Battara]

A very good point, David. I always advocate for stones being take to a jeweler for identification (along with metals). Clears up a lot of problems with sacred meaning, value, etc.

[wolviex]

Nechesh - thank you very much for your reply. Any help and any opinion is valuable for me, until any books about this weapons are out of my sight.

Here it is - THE PENDOK IS TAKEN OFF. And what do we see?
In my opinion the sheath is made of newest wood, so probably it is reconstructed. The warangka is damaged and probably this is the reason why someone took off the pendok and changed the sides - just to hide under the deity's head this bad looking crack. You won't probably see it on photos, but this crack is shining with glue leaking out from the other side. The warangka is glued to the rest of the sheath. I wouldn't be surpised if it was repaired crude European, but could European made such part of the sheath? - or do you think it's Indonesian work?

I was right - the pendok is made of gilted brass. The head is probably cast of brass. There you can also see the brownish stains on the other side of the head - which are probably the result of oxide.

About the stones - I must admit I'm confused - you're not the first person who doubt in "rock crystal theory". The expert was "quoted" not without the reason :) - although she is still expert but not jeweler nor gemologist :(. I'll look further.

On one of the photos you can see how badly is the head unriveted. There is a chance it will be repaired! :)

Best regards!

[Henk]

Wolviex,

Now it will be guessing. It is very good possible that the wrangka wasn't original either. It is quite obvious that the wrangka was remade to fit this keris. The wrangka is made of kaju pellet wood and so is the ukiran but the structure of the wood of the wrangka is different than the structure of the wood of the ukiran. Probably the previous owner would have had the same thought like you have, a nice matching couple. It wouldn't surprise me if only the pendok and the keris itself are original and as you know the wooden parts of keris were frequently replaced. Just like Nechesh, I strongly vote for Madura.

Inten are diamonds used in mendaks, on pendoks and as the eyes of such masks. Don't get dollarsigns in your eyes by the remark diamonds because inten are very cheap and low carat mostly comming from Kalimantan.

[wolviex]

Thank you Hank for explain the "inten" word!

The dollars didn't shine in my eyes :D - I'm not the owner of this thing...

BTW. I'll post the picture of kris with pendok on the proper side when it will come back to me from conservator workshop.

Regards!

[Henk]

I can hardly wait

[wolviex]

I can hardly wait
You'll have to - it will take some time ;)

[DAHenkel]

Certainly a Madurese attribution would clear up some latent questions about this piece. The construction of the pendok in particular seems very "un-Balinese" to me and the form of the wranka is somewhat different from the usual Balinese godoan style cross-piece. The mendak also is certainly unusual, for Bali or Madura for that matter. It has the flavor of being only partial - perhaps part of a larger broken original.

A better sense of the scale of the piece would also be nice. No measurements? How have we come this far without measurements?

Speculation about the "originality" of the parts is at best, problematic, as we all know these things were changed on various whims at various times. That said, the gandar is very likely a replacement. Whether the repair was done in Indonesia or Europe will have much to do with what kind of wood was used. Indonesians usually use light weight, cheap wood for gandars when they are covered by a full pendok. I have a Yogyanese keris with a very similar gandar. Looks like balsa wood, though the rest of the keris is very fine quality indeed. And the workmanship is good. My guess - made in Indonesia.

I would hope that you will advocate strongly for the insertion of a new strip of black velvet or other, similar material behind the openwork of the pendok. Not exactly kosher for many conservation departments - or curators for that matter. I however always advocate restoration - as long as the methods and materials match traditional ones and the work is reversible. A good goldsmith will easily be able to match and replace the missing rivet holding the topengan to the top of the pendok.

As for the significance and mystical importance of the ganja iras - I'm afraid Nechesh, I cannot cite chapter and verse, and I'm too lazy to digging around to find it but I'd be shocked if no books mention it. Its one of those bits of knowledge one picks up on, talking to keris people around the archipelago. Certainly in Java, Sumatra and the Peninsula the ganja iras is, in my experience, usually spoken of in terms of its "speacialness" and this is usually connected to some magic property. If it were merely a matter of cheaper and easier, most keris would be ganja iras. Which is of course, precisely what has happened in the case of the Moro keris in the 20th century.

Now ganja hilang on the other hand - that's a completely different matter :D

[Montino Bourbon]

The pattern on the blade looks a little like pamor sumsum buron.

[nechesh]

Well Dave, be prepared to be shocked. :eek: :) While i have certainly found passing mention of gonjo iras it is usually just to say something like, this blade is "gonjo iras meaning that it was formed in a single piece with the blade" (The Invincible Krises, pg 104). Never have i come across an explanation for this form. While i appreciate the inclination towards laziness (i am a card carrying member of that club myself ;) ) i am afraid that "chapter and verse" would be really handy here. I am also afraid (much to my chagrin) that i have not had the opportunity to pick up any first-hand information taking with people around the archipelego, but those i have discussed this subject with who have had that opportunity (the dreaded second-hand information :eek: ) have not come to your conclusion. Though i don't necessarily agree with this train of thought, it would seem that the popular mystical belief of today as put forth by Harsrinuksmo would be that keris gonjo iras are not true keris at all. See rule #1 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisology.htm
Of course, what is believed true by the mystical community in regards to keris today is not necessarily what was believed last century or the one before that or the one before that. Still, i would like to find at least a single written reference that directly addresses this subject.

[DAHenkel]

Definition of iras: short form of se-iras or in one piece or as one with. In other words keris ganja iras do have a ganja. It is one with or forged together with the rest of the blade.

Do come out and visit the tanah air some time Nechesh. Smell the air, taste the water, kick the dirt around a little and talk to some folks.

[nechesh]

Well, you know Dave, thanks to the modern technology known as the internet, i do get to "talk to some folks". Some of them are very knowledgable indeed, they just happen to disagree with you. But their source of this point of knowledge is just as vague as yours, so being the reasonable and inquistive Philistine that i am, i question it as well. I am not saying you are wrong, i am just seeking references to the truth. Besides it just being a point of interest it is also an import question to answer in regards to determining the origins of the keris presented in this thread. If you are too lazy (your own word) or sure of yourself to take the trouble to look them up (as you have implied that they exist) to the edification of myself and this forum, that's just fine with me. I will continue my search for some real and tangible data elsewhere. Sorry, but i'm just not willing to take your word for it. And i don't particularly appreciate your sarcastic and snarky responses to my questions and statements, as this is not the way i have carried myself throughout this discussion.

[wolviex]

DAHenkel and Nechesh - dear forumites!
Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad :( .
I hope for your further help !

Best regards for both of you !

[Rick]

" Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad .
I hope for your further help !"

Well Wolviex , you have beat me to it .
As Smokey Robinson sang : "I second that emotion ." :D

[nechesh]

As far as i am concerned there is no hatchet to bury. I am just seeking solid evidence to yet another of the many mysteries the keris presents. In that i wish only to be treated with respect and equality. If am am mistaken about the tone i am sensing from Dave's replies, then i am sorry, my bad.

[nechesh]

Here is another quote on gonjo iras fro the "Insiklopedi Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. It is broadly translated, so if anyone can provide a more accurate one please do:

"GANJA IRAS or ganja janggelan,the name for a gonjo that is one with the wilah(that is, the body of the blade) . In a keris that is gonjo iras the dividing line between the sorsoran of the wilah and the gonjo is only a shallow line (or scratch).
Gonjo iras keris are usually plain in form, not keris of beautiful workmanship. Rarely are they of good quality.Keris sajen, that in the writings of westerners are called 'keris Mojopahit', normally are gonjo iras.
In Riau, West Kalimantan and Malaysia, some people call gonjo iras 'gonjo menumpu' ( menumpu is from 'tumpu': footing or support, so gonjo menumpu has the sense of supporting the wilah)"

That's pretty much it on the subject. What i do find interesting is not necessarily what he says, but what he doesn't say. The late Harsrinuksmo was known for being quite the protaganist of "modern" keris mysticism. From what i can tell, his book has become something of a bible on keris for enthusiasts in Indonesia and it is nothing if not liberally peppered with concepts on the mystical attributions of keris. Yet the man wrote no such claims for gonjo iras. Obviously we are all aware of the mystical attributions to keris sajen and keris picit which we often find in the gonjo iras form, but Wolviex's keris is not one of those, it is a relatively normal type except for the gonjo iras. If, indeed, this is meant to be a mystical or talismanic type of keris i find it surprising that Harsrinuksmo would have failed to mention it. Again, this is not conclusive evidence. I would ask anyone with access to various Indonesian or Dutch texts to check them for references and bring them forth. There doesn't seem to be much in the English texts.

[BluErf]

:) I think my ganja iras keris is beautiful. :) Its of Malay origin, so don't expect any pamor (actually, it has pamor kulit semangka, if you look carefully at the middle portion).

And Adni recently acquired (and sold) a Bugis keris (possibly of Sumatran origins) of the ganja iras form, luk 5 as well. That was a beautiful blade complete with the famed Bugis sturdiness. Its a full featured blade with kembang kacang, sogokan (depan, belakang), greneng, and well controlled pamor. Interesting cross section too as it starts out 'flat oval' at the base, then progress to typical Bugis hexagonal cross-section, then to diamond cross-section near the tip.

I recall seeing and handling at least another 2 ganja iras blades, also of Sumatran origins, with good dapur, beautiful luks, and are well-dressed.

And also, the most amazing one I've seen was a Balinese ganja iras keris more than 3 years ago in Adni's shop. It had pamor similar to junjung darjat (if I remember correctly). I dubbed it the 'zebra' keris then because there were so many peaks that they almost resembled a zebra's strips. Of course, no offense to the blade, but that was a nice, full featured Balinese blade too. The keris was dressed in high quality pelet which I dubbed the 'leopard skin' because it looked like the spots on a cloud leopard. I told Adni that the keris is like a mini-safari, because it was topped off with a Hanuman hilt. :)

The "Ensiklopedi Keris" is an authoritative book, but I would read it within the Javanese context, mostly.

Btw, the symbolism of ganja and peksi is towards the lingam and yoni, male and female. I have heard that sometimes a female pandai besi would forge a ganja iras keris and the keris would still be considered 'complete' because the pandai herself is the 'female/yoni' aspect. That is one aspect which I would consider to be on the mystical side.

Shortcuts or not, what makes a good beautiful keris would be overall workmanship. We all know there are many bad-looking kerises with ganja. :)

[nechesh]

Hi Kai Wee. I didn't post Harsrinuksmo's quote in support of his comment on the implying a lack of beauty in gongo iras.I, as well, find your example to be quite attractive and i own one that i also find beautiful. I also don't mean to suggest that "Ensiklopedi Keris" is the definitive text on keris. My only point here is that i would have thought that if anybody were to mention a mystical or talismanic purpose specific to gonjo iras it would be Harsrinuksmo due to the nature of his approach to the keris.
I am aware or the lingam/yoni symbolism of the pesi and gonjo that is certainly a part of the "modern" mystical philosophy of the keris, though i wonder when this concept was actually introduced. I don't think there is much to support that this was the original purpose for the seperate gonjo. I find you theory about female pandai interesting and wonder if anyone else has similar information.

[wolviex]

Dear Friends!

I would like to thank once more for your commitment in my thread, your thoughts are very helpful and important for me.

At the end I would like to present to you the same keris with pendok on the proper side, with three (not one) rivets, and with the complete material under the pendok.

Thank you once more, of course feel free to discuss new pics :)

Best regards to you!

[capt.smash]

WOW that looks so much better ....drooool....drooool nice work :D

[wolviex]

And I forgot - conservation was made not by me, but our museal specialists - best wishes for them !

[Rick]

Three cheers for you Wolviex , without your instigation it may never have happened . :D

[nechesh]

WOW!!! Nice restoration. I am still curious if you ever got a more definitive I.D. on the stones. They still look far too brilliant to be rock crystal to me. Also wonder if you were ever able to determine exactly where this piece was collected from? Give your specialists a pat on the back form us, eh. :)

[BluErf]

Hi Wolviex,

I feel happy for the keris. Could you shake the hands of the museum specialists for me? Tell them they did great. :)

[wolviex]

Thank you for this kind words, I appreciate it. I'm happy you like it :)

Regards

[DAHenkel]

Not to re-hash what we've already gone over before but I am still not at all convinced that this is a Madurese keris. There are more than a few examples that are very similar to this piece and - with the notable exception of the highly unreliable Hasrinuksmo they are attributed to Bali.

I'm not denying that the topengan may have been used in Madura though I would contend that by at least the 19th century that had ceased. We have in our museum's collection an excavated example dated to about the 15th century from East Java. I know the blade does not look like a typical Balinese keris but then again I've seen more than a few keris like that from Bali. I suspect that in most cases these are either very early examples, ie. 16th or 17th c. or perhaps even later imports or trade blades.

I'd really love to hear what Empu Kumis has to say about this piece because among us he has perhaps the most keris experience on Bali. However, in general, can anyone show me a similar piece that is accurately and incontrovertibly provenanced to Madura?

[Henk]

The restoration is well done. The ones who performed it did a good job. But the credits are also to you Wolviex. You brought the attention of them to this piece.

[Kiai Carita]

The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity.

The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris.

Salam keris

[Bill]

is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?

[Jussi M.]

Up

[Paul B.]

Hi Wolviex,

Reading your initiated topic about these highly desirable krisses I came across a pic in the collection of the Tropen Museum in Amsterdam. Seems like a twin to me! The pic is rather of poor quality.

[Paul B.]

Another look-a-like from the museum.

[David]

I have moved this thread to the Keris Forum, which did not exist when it was first opened.
Paul, are there also images of the blades for these keris on the museum website.
I think many, if not most of us, came around to the belief that the original keris posted may well be from Madura rather than Bali. What origins did the Tropen Museum attribute them to?

[Paul B.]

The collection of the museum can be reached thru this link:
http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/Default.aspx

It is hard to find what you're looking for among the vast majority of pics as the they are so small. I could only trace back one of them. There was a brief description of the outer features and Bali was mentioned as a provenance.
This pic of the blade shows kinatah but that's just about all you can tell about it.

[David]

Thanks Paul. I have surfed the Tropen Museum site a number of times.
The photo as uploaded here is a bit too small to tell much, but it certainly looks like it could be a Bali blade.
If you read through this thread you will see why some of us thought that perhaps the originally posted keris may have been from Madura instead.

[Paul B.]

Fully agree and this 'high rank' Madura kris (?) definitely shows typical Madurese features.
The kinatah is 18 or maybe 22 carat gold? Additional kinatah makes it a precious piece. There is red 'dust' in the gilt pendok, just for decoration purpose or is there a relation with a Keraton?

[Jean]

Hello Paul,
The kinatah of your kris looks recently made or refurbished from the pics, and the blade may be Javanese?
I attach the pic of a Javanese kris with an old blade but a recently made (about 1990) silver pendok with topengan.
Regards

[Paul B.]

Kinatah not very old I agree nor superbly made but blade has the perfect fit into a typical ladrang capu slot opening so why Javanese? NG pamor is a wellknown Madurese pamor.

[Paul B.]

Additional pic of slot.

[Paul B.]

Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.

[David]

Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.
Well Paul, i won't make any claims of origin since the photos provided don't give me a very good look at this blade, but Madura is right next to Jawa and it is considered a part of East Jawa. I would not be surprised to find a few Javanese blades in custom-fit Madurese dress. So that the blade is neatly fitted to the sheath is not really an indication that the blade was made in Madura.
I also don't see why you site the blade length as evidence of Madurese origin. 37 cm is well within the expected lengths of Javanese blades as well.
I am having a hard time seeing this kinatah as "superbly made", but maybe we just need to see closer, sharper images to understand what you see with the blade in hand.
BTW, we are here in this thread already so we should continue here, but the only similarity this keris has to the ones under discussion is the topengan. This keris probably would have been better suited to its own separate thread. Just something to think about for future postings. ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

Let us look at this keris as it is supposed to seen.

Now, just exactly what classification are we looking at here?

Is it Madura, or is it one of the Javanese classifications?

Bear this in mind:- when we classify a keris, that is to say, when we propose a tangguh, we do not say "Jawa" first and then decide upon the tangguh, no, we firstly try to align the blade features with the classification indicators, we decide our tangguh opinion, and only then can we say:- "Jawa".

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?

[Jean]

Kinatah not very old I agree nor superbly made but blade has the perfect fit into a typical ladrang capu slot opening so why Javanese? NG pamor is a wellknown Madurese pamor.

Hello Paul,
Ladrang Capu is a Central Javanese type of warangka (see book KJ page 306) but yours is clearly an East Javansese type (also found in Madura).
Regards

[Jean]

So, if this is a Javanese blade, what classification might it fit?

Hello Alan,
I would not venture to assign a tangguh to this blade from the pics and just envisaged that it could be Javanese from its overall proportions and ricikan (kembang kacang, greneng) which look more Javanese than Madurese to me. I attach a pic of what I understand as a more typical wavy madurese blade.
Regards

[Gustav]

Back to square one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

[Jean]

Yes Jean, that keris in post 83 is close to text-book Madura, however, all tangguh comes down to opinion, and in my opinion I cannot fit Pauls keris into a Jawa classification. I might be able to with much better photos, but what I believe I can see in Paul's keris at the moment simply rules out Jawa and ticks Madura.

Look at the blumbangan, look at the greneng, look at the pawakan, look at the penitis, the kembang kacang might just barely scrape in as Jawa, but it also fits nicely into Madura.

Look at your Madura and Paul's keris together, in the same orientation.

Consider this:- if we want to give Paul's keris as Jawa, what do we have available as possibilities? It appears to have a boto adeg blumbangan, how many Javanese classifications have boto adeg blumbangan?

Could it be Pajajaran?

Majapahit?

Banten?

Surakarta?

It doesn't fit any of those, does it?

Where do you go from there?

But agreed, the photos do need a lot of improvement before you'd bet your house on it.

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I won't argue anymore as we are deviating from the original subject, but would you say that every old Javanese blade (including the village and trade pieces) should be aligned to a specific tangguh?
Paul, could you please post a clear picture of the sorsoran of the blade?

Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Absolutely not Jean --- from the classic point of view.

But it seems to be obvious to me that the current crop of collectors, the bulk of whom are from outside the society and the social level for whom the tangguh system was relevant, now have decided that a tangguh can be stuck onto every keris ever made.

That's just the way it is at the moment, and I doubt that it will ever go back to the classic form.

After all, it is only an opinion, and opinions in the strictest sense are not really open to debate, but they can be discussed, which makes tangguh a wonderful method of generating conversation and social interaction.

[Bjorn]

The Dutch Rijksmuseum also has similar topengan pieces in its collection. Both are attributed to Madura.

For photo one, the description reads:
J.C. Baud, Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies, was presented with this kris by Mangkoe Adie Ningrat, ruler of Pamekasan, during his inspection tour on Java and Madura in 1834. The exchange of gifts between native rulers and Dutch officials was important in maintaining good diplomatic relations. A kris, as a symbol of power that protected its wearer against evil, was a highly appropriate gift.

For photo 2:
This kris was presented to King William I by the Sultan of Madura, Cakra Adinigrat VIII, in 1835. In an accompanying letter, the sultan expressed a thousand thanks for his appointment as a Commander in the Order of the Dutch Lion. His gift to the king was a kris ‘made at my kraton [= palace]’. Two of the 117 diamonds decorating the scabbard are missing.