New Acquisition, Mandau, said to be 1800's

[JoeCanada42]

Got this monster from Australia, the buyer claimed it to be a genuine old one.
given the evidence I would like to agree. I have seen many new ones in YouTube videos and online, out of all the ones I have seen on the market, with my limited knowledge, I would trust this one to be most likely genuine old and quality.
seems it was overlooked, undervalued and rejected,(first time sold no bids, second time around I had money :) perfect as objects like that seem to be meant for me and usually I have great luck with them.
I actually don't see any other one , that I would rather have than this one. good look to the carving, very happy with it, its got a certain presence to it. it is quite heavy, definitely a chopper.
I would think this one was a user , not made for show, looks it has been well put to the test and earned some working life repairs. I would hope it was made with the native metals, but found some curious partial marks on the blade?
the blade seems to have all the right angles to have been made the old way.
I am hesitant to clean it...
any tips to identify human bone?
Kalimantan or?
age?
clay tempered?
thanks for looking , sorry if too many photos but I like to see all the angles and i think many would agree

[JoeCanada42]

additional photos

[JoeCanada42]

add photos ..

[JoeCanada42]

more photos

[JoeCanada42]

more photo again

[JoeCanada42]

more still

[JoeCanada42]

last of photos

[JoeCanada42]

...in a YouTube video I heard mention of old Mandau's made with Dutch wagon springs, anyways.. , while meditating about the Marking on the blade I had a thought... did I stumble into a V.O.C. ???

[milandro]

your Mandau appears to be old, whether that may also lead to the conclusion that it is an antique I don't know.

The VOC was disbanded in 1798. I think it is extremely unlikely that this Punched C belongs to a VOC designations, which are , to my knowledge, incisions made with a chisel.

[JoeCanada42]

When I rotate it and look closely The letter Resembles more
G.
and a few spaces ahead of it I see the remains of "S" or a number " 3?, 5?"

Perhaps the " G. " could be for Galle Ceylon

[milandro]

I suppose this blade could be certainly cleaned of its rust without necessarily detract from its age and show more of its markings. I doubt that there will be any positive ID from its origin even after that has happened (and something should be done to preserve the blade since there appears to be active rust on its surface)

Anyway the markings appear to be showing a western influence either in the steel or the forge. A piece entirely forged with Dayak material wouldn't have this kind of markings. The piece MAY be from the '20 but I doubt is as old as you have been told.

[JoeCanada42]

the G

perhaps, certainly its got a European touch. but why would a European put that there in the 20's? , I'm leaning more towards colonial trade markings

[JoeCanada42]

A piece entirely forged with Dayak material wouldn't have this kind of markings. .

I wouldn't be to Shure about that.., maybe it was entirely forged by a Dayak, then acquired by a European or company, and had the identifying mark or initials put on after.

[milandro]

because earlier markings are not punched but chiseled and because of the lettertype used it looks , to me , something of the beginning od the 20th century

One can hypothesise any kind of thing but the reality is that without any safe and documented provenance they stay hypothesis

This, to my eye, is a pice made either with a piece of western steel or by a western smith which was repurposed to make this Mandau.

Even pieces made on Tjikeroeh (where lots of stuff was forged , in any sense of this verb.....) are showing the dates and other markings chiseled (as late as the '30)

[milandro]

another thing, this hilt appears to be antler ;) not bone (human or otherwise)

[JoeCanada42]

fair enough but why put it there in the early 20c?

I don't know enough about the font type to say its definitely not older font

I do see the older VOC are carved but I don't think that its impossible either for someone to have stamps circa 1800,

for me this is not valid to rule out the possibility of it being older .

[JoeCanada42]

antler thanks, and thanks for the discourse so far,

I read for the best Dayak blades the purchaser would pay a native 10x the initial purchase cost to have the sword used for up to a year to test its quality, and that on these good native blades the beveled concave edge was sanded down by hand... it looks like that's what I got, not a forged or grinded down shape.
also the curve to the blade I was hoping is something the happened when tempered the old fashion way.

[JoeCanada42]

hmm I did research human bone vs animal bone and saw that human is more porous ( one side of mine looked "porous"), I neglected to research bone compared to antler, I will research it.
I was aware antler was more common for these including the older ones.

[werecow]

I recently saw a mandau with H.S. stamped into it in similar manner. All it said was early 20th century. Unfortunately I can't post pictures since it is still on sale.

[Sajen]

Hello Joe,

May I ask if the blade has a concave/convex profile?

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Hello Joe,

May I ask if the blade has a concave/convex profile?

Regards,
Detlef
As to Detlef's question here, some might argue, but from my understanding a mandau has a convex/concave blade. This blade does not. So for my money this is not really a mandau. While it does have some age, i don't think i would place it much older than early 20th century. It's hard to say more about the blade with a good cleaning to remove all that dirt and rust. This could be a European blade that was adapted. It has some odd features i have not seen on this type of sword before.
What i can say without a doubt is that there is no way this is a VOC blade. Cleaning the blade might help reveal what is actually stamped into the steel, but i seriously doubt it is VOC.

[Sajen]

Agree with David, when it has indeed not a convex/concave blade it isn't a mandau!

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Joe,

As to Detlef's question here, some might argue, but from my understanding a mandau has a convex/concave blade. This blade does not.
From the pics, I'm not sure yet - please confirm, Joe!

The concave side can be (almost) flat, too: It's more that the other side does exhibit a clearly convex profile...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Joe,

I can't read the metal due to the rust and partial cleaning - I agree that at least a gentle, even cleaning with fine steel wool and lots of elbow grease will be preferable.

As mentioned, this certainly isn't a VOC blade: Those were European blades, never local styles. (And you can't get a broad cleaver out of a slender sword/sabre.) Anyway, this font will never fly as VOC. Moreover, lots of Indo blades received false VOC marks - much like many European marks got copied by the competition!

I also doubt this blade is as old as claimed: Especially the base of the blade is not typical and also the tip seems a bit odd, even for a possibly worn blade. While some later blades have European letters on them, this certainly is not a traditional feature. Some earlier blades also got crafted from imported steel and blanks that didn't got fully reforged by the bladesmiths may show remnants of European lettering; in this case the lettering is crisp and seems to be aligned well with the back of the blade which is pointing towards very limited changes in shape.

The English (Wilkinson?) did supply blades in local styles. Not sure about mandau though - this might be worth following up on!

The scabbard isn't terribly old either (the rattan bands seem to show some age though).

All in all and based on the currently available pics, I'd guess this might well originate from the 2nd half of 20th c.

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Werecrow, that may be a very good piece of evidence I hope you will keep us updated, maybe it would be ok to share just the markings and not the blade ...

and yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.

it is less then what appears usually on pieces seen

and for the curve in the spine? not Shure what to call that, like when you quench a straight katana its gets the backwards curve... is that present on older ones?

I realize chances of VOC is rare and unlikely, but its still got some mystery ...
i was thinking Galle ceylon was still in operation at the time, and perhaps when they went out of buisness the new owners marked the old stock ..

[JoeCanada42]

bit more detailed

[werecow]

I don't know if it'll help much but I've cropped the picture to just the stamped letters on the mandau and some file marks that may or may not tell the experts something about the origins. In any case, the font was what the one under discussion reminded me of (although it seems to be narrower on yours).

I hope I can say that it is a very typical blade profile with otherwise no embellishments that I could see (i.e. no curly cutout decorations, engravings or brass or silver inlays, but with a nicely carved antler grip and some decorative panels on the scabbard).

If the picture is not allowed I shall willingly place my head upon the digital chopping block. ;)

[werecow]

Also it may be nothing but the unusual little "ricasso" area at the base of the blade reminds me somewhat of those on klewang blades and some Tjikeroeh swords.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=223973&stc=1&d=1676946481

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73181&stc=1&d=1308936029
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=4996&stc=1&d=1120753408

[kai]

Yes, this stepped ricasso was one of the features I was referring to.

BTW, any chance that the tang got welded to the blade, Joe?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Joe,

yes it is concave convex, I believe I mentioned that, and tried desperately to photo it, these photos should help.
I'm not sure these pics really help...

You realise that we're speaking of the cross-section of the blade? (There shouldn't be any bend along the long blade axis.)

BTW, the final curvature of the blade (back) depends obviously not only on the quenching but also on the initial configuration. A good blade smith takes this into account to obtain the intended final shape. Many mandau have a pretty straight edge while there are also quite a few with fairly curved blades.

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Yes the cross section is convex on one side and concave on the other.
I tried to photo this earlier, and recently aswell, when in your hand you can definitely notice it, I tried taking photos looking at the blade from the point but it doesn't show much, I will work some more on a good photo later. in person looking from the point you can defenitly see these angles

and yes the angle of the blade has a slight curve sideways, upwards if your right handed, I show this in the recent photos I posted. i have a moroco nimcha and talwar also with small slight curve sideways like this near the point.
i beleive this was also to help with cutting, to avoid the shoulder when say taking a head,

schola gladiatora has a youtube video where he mentions this, and many other mandau sword I seen on youtube had that angle as well as the concave convex cross section. that sideways bend is the one i referred too having seen more pronounced on other mandaus.

[JoeCanada42]

the tjikeroeh swords do seem to be interesting and very similar...

I still need to research English Wilkinson blades sold in the area.

the tang does not seem to be welded, it is very corroded black but seems flush and solid except for that little bit of extra metal( and i was pretty shure it was metal), I did give it a second look when I noticed that before you mentioned it, and as far as I can tell it looks like one solid piece, not shure why that would be left there, thinking about it now ,..maybe someone tried to solder a replacement guard? I will also try to get better photos of that part.

and werecrow thank you very much for sharing that photo, maybe it will help solve the mystery. I'm guna look into the markings myself, hopefully though someone else has seen similar ,

Kai, how about the style of the Gagang ?

[JoeCanada42]

here it is again highlighting a previous photo

[David]

Joe, no matter how many times i look at the photos you posted i am afraid i am just not seeing a concave/convex cross-section on you blade. It should look something like this.

[JoeCanada42]

I want to share a though I had before I forget it...

ever play hockey as a kid,
with those cheap plastic hockey sticks,
and you almost instinctually bend blade,
so you can have a good slap shot

[JoeCanada42]

the cross section as i see it
in actuality the cross section doesn't come to the sharp point till past the dotted line
the concaveness starts really to show also at the end of the dotted line at as it becomes sharp

* here edited to have more proper picture

[Ian]

Hi Joe,

Interesting sword that you have shown in some detail. I agree with the comment that this hilt is made from antler rather than bone. The carved structures show a lovely amber color that seems to come from handling, sweat, dirt, and smoke (from indoor fires), a color distinctive of older Borneo hilts that have been used a lot. The angle of the carving that juts out from the hilt is not anatomically consistent with a primate bony structure.

As to age, it is very hard to judge from pictures. Your hilt certainly looks as though it could be a hundred years or more old. Again, I would base that on the patina of the hilt.

The blade is an odd one and very hard to assess with the substantial oxidation and grime on it. Whether or not it is a mandau is hard to say, but others have given you reasons why it may not be. If you want to know more about this blade, I would suggest cleaning it and taking it back to white if you can. That will give a much clearer idea of any marks that may be on it. If you want to darken the blade again, treatment with vinegar produces a nice grayness and will sometimes pick out laminated elements. Make sure then to oil it well or use a micro-silicone wax (e.g. Renaissance Wax) to limit rusting,

I would leave the hilt as it is. That patina is attractive IMHO and honestly come by over time.

Regards, Ian.

[Ian]

Joe, when I enlarged the letter "G" on your blade, it has a somewhat unusual appearance. The serif at the end of the top curve is entirely above the terminus of the curve. This is hinted at in a number of fonts (mostly old) but this example is about the most extreme I've seen. At the bottom end, there is another oddity. As the bottom end of the curve approaches the vertical leg of the G, it takes an abrupt dive to join the bottom of the leg. Again, I can't recall seeing that in another antique font.


I'm not an expert on fonts, but I have read a bit about them and I find the various styles interesting. Perhaps there is someone here who recognises this form of the letter G. I'm fairly sure it's not a British font and that the style probably predates 1900.


A blow up of the letter is attached.

[JoeCanada42]

thanks Ian for the help

I am still having fun researching the various Tjikeroeh swords

still a lot to for me to read up on ,with what people have suggested, I unfortunately am researching way too many things at the moment... even got a library book for something else I'm research and its coming due.

I may have to devote more research to this one a bit later

( I also recently got a very different sword from Australia, I'm done with the research I can do on it for now , without it in my hands, I'm ready give some info with it when I get it. and I'm Sure my theories are just going to be loved)

anyways

so for my Dayak handle
Iban?

[JoeCanada42]

the handle

[JoeCanada42]

the blade and markings

still dangerously sharp

[JoeCanada42]

I used a tooth brush and dish soap, then some small amount (all I had) nu finish silver polish , rubbed it on with my fingers,,,, I then scrubbed it with a S.O.S. sponge, the rust on the blade worked itself into a nice rouge paste, red the first time then brown, I washed it with soap after then water then dried it, i then repeated the process for good measure this time with a rag not the sos pad, dried it again, applied vinegar and dried it quickly, didn't treat it long at all with the vinegar, I didn't have any proper wax, I just rubbed it with a tea candle and polished it like a pair of boots.

I read about using vinegar, actually someone recommended it on my Moro sword,,, but I found it was drying up leaving stains
(as for the pommel, I don't even want to remove the cobwebs)

[Sajen]

The marking on the blade look to my eyes like it was a marking from the used steel, similar to the marking on one of my mandau blades: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27432&highlight=mandau

Regards,
Detlef

[JoeCanada42]

Thank Sajen for the link and info
now I got to research Long Glat Blades , among Jimpul and more...

any confirmation on my handle being Iban style or?

also I read this by Roland in another thread

A head hunting mandau is thick at the base, sharp, quite heavy, forward balanced, often "decorated" with nicks and has a concave/convex blade. The best head hunting mandau are made from clay tempered, laminated high quality steel with a beautiful hamon.

what nicks are being referred to?? , i got some nicks on surface of my blade...

mine has a similar handle to this one,,
I want to mention the art on this one , to me, looks like a view into an ant farm, like a view through windows into the ant tunnels, possibly depicting a pangolin tongue going through the tunnel. see Jim's Mandau Post recently if you havent for my ideas on these handles

[Sajen]

Thank Sajen for the link and info
now I got to research Long Glat Blades , among Jimpul and more...

You're welcome! Long Glat was ruled out by my example, I was going by the handle from my example. ;)

any confirmation on my handle being Iban style or?

I am far away from being a Dayak specialist, I prefer to give it to others for the answer.:D


what nicks are being referred to?? , i got some nicks on surface of my blade...

I think Roland referred to nicks in the edge by his example. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Nice clean up Joe.
I am even more convinced that this blade has been adapted to this form from some other blade and has possibly been reshaped. And from the most recent photos you show i am still not seeing a concave/convex form of blade that is a key design element of the mandau blade.
What convinces me most that this may have started it's life as a different form of sword is the area on the edge side of the blade that remains flat and unsharpened and tapers distally for a fair bit of the length of the blade. I have never seen a mandau with this feature and wonder why they chose not to begin the edge of the blade for such a distance out from the hilt. Because of the way this sword is designed i can almost guarantee it was not used for headhunting and was probably more likely employed for the more common work of jungle clearing.
The letters still intrigue, but since a good part is lost to wear it is difficult to grab any useful information here. It is possible that you might be able to read a bit more of it if you did some kind of rubbing from the surface and then held it up to a mirror.

[JoeCanada42]

Thanks Sajen , David,

I think its possible it could still have been owned by a head hunter at least? I heard they used many blades, and that when European steel became available it was used by choice.

Here is another thought I have been holding in the back of my mind
used as a , Pirate Sword?

Something I just staring researching...
British officer swords circa 1800 carrying this same G mark

[JoeCanada42]

the G. , stamped marks
?The S matches with Mandau, Werecow found
swords dating from 1796-1803

[JoeCanada42]

coin

[JoeCanada42]

I read about pre regulation Dutch klewang blades and found that interesting..
but with the scabbard, handle and more unique to mandau style blade i am thinking this is older then the Dutch klewangs. maybe this form was developed by the natives , using a British blade from earlier.

I heard the natives preferred trading with the British over the Dutch because the British gave things the natives wanted like knives whereas the Dutch brought like blankets to the jungle..

perhaps even maybe this form blade was made by British in Galle for trade to the natives.

[JoeCanada42]

I just heard on an episode of forged in fire with Klewangs
"when the Dutch colonial government was in Malaysia , they encountered and found the klewang so deadly they outlawed it before developing their own"

Ian thank you for your post on Dutch klewangs I found it very interesting. and it lead me the the post that included the pre regulation klewangs, thanks also Amuk Murugul whom shared that one.

[kai]

Well, Joe, please take every factual statement you hear on FIF with a huge chunk of salt if you may... :eek: :rolleyes:

Malaysia derives from the British colonial sphere of influence - the Dutch did not enter there.

The Dutch klewang was never based on any indigenous blade. During the Aceh war(s) and resistance periods, Indonesian conscripts (mainly from the Moluccas and Madura IIRC) found the performance of the issued Dutch swords wanting, especially in close quarters - no big surprise there. Them resorting to local Aceh swords and other traditional blades initiated the development of the Dutch-Indo klewang.

These are thin and slender blades - you'd need to join at least 2 klewang blades to obtain a mandau blade. Thus, klewang blades are an unlikely source.

Have you followed up on Wilkinson and other British suppliers?

Another possibility might be modern Sunda smiths moving to Borneo and setting up shop there (most likely after independence and possibly transmigrasi).

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Hi kai
concerning the FiF episode they did say it was a short lived Dutch venture.

Thanks again for the suggestion ,but I found it hard to find any info on British suppliers and on Wilkinson blades in the area. I will try researching again. I don't know about the other idea with the Sunda smiths.

Kai, can you say anything about the style handle? Iban or?
thanks

[JoeCanada42]

I feel like people are holding out on me, or is it you want me to experience the fun of researching myself...lol... jk
anyways while researching Jian swords just now. I stumble upon a post with a anther ethno sword with a G.
and this sword has the notch like mine and the Tjikeroeh swords

Ian , whats the deal with dohon palay swords?

Thanks!

[David]

I'm not sure the "G" on this other sword has much connection to yours as it appears to be stand alone. Same with the coin. Though we might have difficulty reading it, your sword definitely has other letters marked there.
As Kai has already insinuated, you can pretty much dismiss anything the Forged in Fire guys have to say about S.E.A. weapons. They don't know jack about this stuff. For that matter, its a very bad show for blacksmithing technique as well. LOL!
I don't think anyone who has participated in this thread so far is holding back on you, but if i am not mistaken, there are members on this forum who have yet to comment who know quite a bit more about Dayak weapons.

[JoeCanada42]

Thanks David,
I take all info with a grain of salt, and ya some of the forging I have seen on FiF is very questionable, to say the least .
as for the marks on my Iban swords blade I feel maybe there was one initial or symbol before the G., the remaining marks I would guess was 4 digits, a date...
some how only the G remains visible, which makes me think the markings may have been applied at different times.

[Ian]

Hi Joe,

That's a nice job you did in cleaning the blade. The letter G is clearly visible as well as parts of other letters (?) and numbers (?). One thing to consider is that the G does not seem to align with the numbers, which in turn do not align with themselves. This suggests to me that these were applied some time after the original blade was forged. They would have been added by using a separate die for each letter, with the die being struck into the cold steel. Thus, we may not be looking at a maker's mark but something else.

As for the dahong palay, that's a Filipino sword used by the Tagalog and Ilokano people of Luzon. Dahong palay means rice leaf, and the blade shape resembles a rice leaf. I don't think the "G" on the Filipino sword has any connection to your sword.

Ian.