Filippine kris moro? [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

ernesto.e

27th July 2006, 12:19 AM

Very nice kris moro, comments please?http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280009179541&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Fcgiurl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.co m%252Fws%252F%26fkr%3D1%26from%3DR8%26satitle%3D28 0009179541%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1

Rick

27th July 2006, 12:33 AM

Bill , I think you bought a 1930's era sword ; albeit a nice fancy one . :D

Lew

27th July 2006, 03:11 AM

Bill , I think you bought a 1930's era sword ; albeit a nice fancy one . :D

Yes a nice unique kris but I think the bidders got a bit carried away.

Lew

nechesh

27th July 2006, 03:20 AM

Yes a nice unique kris but I think the bidders got a bit carried away.

Lew

I agree. Unless that inlay turns out to be gold (and even then), that's far too much money for a kris like this in that condition and without a sheath. I truly hate seeing the market driven up so high like this.

Bill

27th July 2006, 10:44 AM

Nice sword. I would guess it's 19C Maguindanao. Not sure if the new owner is going to etch it, but I would not be surprised if it came out with a marble pattern.

rasdan

27th July 2006, 03:20 PM

Hi,

I think that is one really nice keris. The inlay is simply marvellous!! Prices are subjective for sure. :) Congrats on a very nice keris.

Bill M

27th July 2006, 06:58 PM

Hi,

I think that is one really nice keris. The inlay is simply marvellous!! Prices are subjective for sure. :) Congrats on a very nice keris.

Thanks! Best inlay I have ever seen. Will get better pictures when it arrives. I am not planning to etch the blade. I will only oil it. Not many are untouched, I like this one that way.

Lew

27th July 2006, 07:11 PM

Bill

I find it odd that the bidder who put in that big bid only has a few winning auctions and none of them are for antique swords.

Lew

Rick

27th July 2006, 10:17 PM

Yeh Lew , that is very suspicious ; especially when one reads the Seller's text regarding the sword's estimated worth ($1,000.00 ) .

Still , it is surely a purty sword .
Bill, are you planning any hilt restoration ?

nechesh

27th July 2006, 10:32 PM

Bill

I find it odd that the bidder who put in that big bid only has a few winning auctions and none of them are for antique swords.

Lew

That's funny Lew, i checked his other auctions too and had a similar thought.... hhmmm.....

Bill M

27th July 2006, 11:07 PM

That's funny Lew, i checked his other auctions too and had a similar thought.... hhmmm.....

Have had several good emails with the seller and he seems like a straight-up guy and relative newbie to eBay.

I also told the seller that I would not be bidding high, so he had no reason to even try a shill.

Bottom line is that I think the seller is an ethical guy who would not bring in a shill bidder.

kai

28th July 2006, 02:15 AM

Another vote for etching! :)

There seems to be some active rust, anyway, and just wiping the blade with warm vinegar might do the trick...

BTW, that second-highest bidder did buy old blades before.

Regards,
Kai

Bill M

28th July 2006, 11:40 AM

Bill, are you planning any hilt restoration ?

If this is as untouched as I hope it is, I will probably work on preservation only and no restoration. Myabe a light clean and vinegar on the blade. Maybe.

I asked the seller to give my email to S*O*B* and see if he wants to network and or trade/sell blades, but no reponse.

Ebay won't let me email him because we are not in a "financial transaction." (Through eBay)

I am going on the supposition that he is not a shill bidder and maybe someone who also buys quality blades. The seller told me that several "experts" had looked at the blade before he listed it. Possible that SOB was one of these people.

He may be someone I can network with. Would like his contact info if you can get it

Best,
Bill

mross

28th July 2006, 05:01 PM

Thanks! Best inlay I have ever seen. Will get better pictures when it arrives. I am not planning to etch the blade. I will only oil it. Not many are untouched, I like this one that way.
Bill,
Nice sword.
Is there something significant about inlays? Such as does it signify a class the sword was made for? (I am guessing only the higher ups could afford inlays).
Can they be identified to a region or perhaps a smith? Just curious, and am trying to add to my body of knowledge. Or are inlays just a matter of personel preference?

Willie W.

29th July 2006, 11:50 PM

Bill,
Nice sword.
Is there something significant about inlays? Such as does it signify a class the sword was made for?

yes.

Andrew

30th July 2006, 12:17 AM

yes.

Welcome to the forum, Willie. Any chance you'd expand on this? :)

Willie W.

1st August 2006, 05:52 PM

Thank you for the welcome, Andrew. I've been lurking here for quite sometimes but never posted. It seems that for what little knowledge about Moro sundangs were shared, the values of these would rise. There's good and bad to this; good, in that the sellers and dealers are making profit, and bad, because it creates an elite group to collect these heirlooms. With that, most collections are tucked away, giving future collectors no chance of acquiring it, or future scholars to study these magnificent weapons. Though forum such as these exist to educate the public, most informations that are given lately about these swords, are erroneous in nature, almost laughable at times (e.g., the silver hilted barung awhile back...).

I will share what I know about this twisted core, since I have seen this type appearing quite a lot recently, and at the least it would be something that future collectors can go by. But most of all, I have the blessings of my grandfather to share this knowledge. Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.

VVV

1st August 2006, 06:20 PM

Thanks for the info Willie,

Do you mind sharing your knowledge on the unusual silver hilted Barong (posted a while ago) also?

Michael

Battara

1st August 2006, 10:31 PM

Ok, Willie, I will show my ignorance here. What is a panglima exactly and what is the difference? (yes - lots of datus in the region).

BSMStar

2nd August 2006, 01:45 AM

Ok, Willie, I will show my ignorance here. What is a panglima exactly and what is the difference? (yes - lots of datus in the region).

Please correct me if I am wrong... I believe the panglimas were the Datu's lieutenants or regional leaders/warriors under the Datu's command.

Ian

3rd August 2006, 12:03 PM

I think Panglima is a Malay word and implies much more than a Datu's lieutenant -- more in the nature of a general with command over a substantial number of warriors. Sometimes the terms Datu and Panglima are applied to the same person. That would suggest service to a sultan or other higher dignitary than a datu. I look forward to reading Willie's explanation of the term.

Ian.

Edit: A Malay term Panglima Tertinggi refers to "Commander in Chief"

BSMStar

3rd August 2006, 01:15 PM

Sometimes the terms Datu and Panglima are applied to the same person. That would suggest service to a sultan or other higher dignitary than a datu.

I have been privately contacted and "corrected" too. :o In order for me to sort this out, in whose employment was the Panglima? By the Datu or the Sultan? :confused: That would answer a lot for me.

VVV

3rd August 2006, 01:47 PM

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?
I noticed that there were five districts (five=lima), is this a coincidence?

In Swish of the Kris Panglima is translated as judge.

Michael

From http://www.answers.com/topic/tausug-people

"...In 1390, Raja Baguinda landed at Buansa and extended the missionary work of Makdum. The Muslim Arabian scholar Abu Bakr arrived in 1450, married Baguinda's daughter, and after Baguinda's death, became sultan, thereby introducing the sultanate as a political system. Political districts were created in Parang, Pansul, Lati, Gitung, and Luuk, each headed by a panglima or district leader."

mross

3rd August 2006, 05:03 PM

I will share what I know about this twisted core, since I have seen this type appearing quite a lot recently, and at the least it would be something that future collectors can go by. But most of all, I have the blessings of my grandfather to share this knowledge. Twisted cores such as the one shown were reserved for the panglimas, and not datus. Datus were dime a dozen, but to be a panglima is something else.

Perhaps I am missing something here but I thought the discussion was on inlays not twisted cores? :confused:

Bill M

3rd August 2006, 05:37 PM

Perhaps I am missing something here but I thought the discussion was on inlays not twisted cores? :confused:

My wife says I have a twisted core. But she married me anyway. :confused: :rolleyes: :D

Rick

3rd August 2006, 10:14 PM

Bill, you're in rare form today . :rolleyes: :D

I believe Willie was referring to the kris in another thread .

Battara

4th August 2006, 01:46 AM

BSMStar

4th August 2006, 01:05 PM

Did a quick Google and found out that Panglima is a district chief/leader and Datu is a tribal leader. The Sulu Sultanate was divided into five larger districts, each governed by a Panglima. So I assume that the order is Sultan - Panglima - Datu?

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Rick

4th August 2006, 03:15 PM

I was also surfing the net when I posted... but at the time, I found at least four "definitions":
1. A Warrior
2. A “lieutenant” to the Datu
3. A district chief or leader
4. A headsmen

To make it more confusing, they were intermixing Malay and Philippine useage of the word.

I do not know if there is any differences in the usage of the word Panglima, or if word has changed meaning over time. But if the Panglima was a "position" between the Sultan and the Datu, that would make this sword very special indeed!

Or perhaps any older kris with a twisted core .
But not the one that is the subject of this particular thread .
I'm sure that the piece is very high end; but nowhere is it described as having a twisted core IIRC .

Battara

4th August 2006, 09:52 PM

I finally woke up and looked into some research, specifically Peter Gowing's book Muslim Filipino-Heritage and Horizon (Queszon City: New Day Pub., 1979). He was the director Dansalan College, Marawi City and he writes:

"The office of panglima (personal representative of the Sultan)...carried certain perogatives and powers in Sulu..."(p.45)

Of datus he writes:

"There were (and still are) at leaset three kinds of datus in Moro society: datue-in-fact, daut-in-name, and royal datue. Datus-in-fact actually presided over a group of followers and /or controlled a give territory. Datus-in-name were as a courtesy called datus because they were born into aristocratic familiesd, while in reality they commanded no following and had no power."(p.47)

He then goes on to mention that the royal datus were related closely as blood relatives to the sultan.

In some ways it would seem that Willie may have a point, that it went: Sultan, Panglima, then Datu.

Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power.

This might explain why some "datu class" pieces have very expensive gold, ivory, silver mounts and others less so, such a wide range.

BSMStar

5th August 2006, 04:27 AM

Of course this was not as hard and fast, but a little fluid in influence and power.

So Battara, why would this rule be any different than any other Philippine sword rule... it's a sundang. :rolleyes:

All kidding aside, great research!

Willie W.

5th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Perhaps I am missing something here but I thought the discussion was on inlays not twisted cores?

Oh yeah, about the inlays...

wilked aka Khun Deng

5th August 2006, 09:57 AM

Battara's research and Willie's rankings are correct.

We actually did quite a bit of research on this while in Sulu as we had to get it right before we engaged the traditional heirarchy. They are VERY conscious of rank still (at least in Sulu) to the point where seating arrangements and invitations would take up an inordinate amount of time and have to be vetted through all groups involved just to sit down and have a meeting.

There are still the three varieties of Datus on Sulu. A Panglima refers to a representative of the Sultan. The individual could have been a Datu also but the designation of Panglima carried with it the weight of the Sultan's authority (and generally a sizeable force of soldiers). Panglima's were generally used to enforce trade agreements from recalcitrant Datus or sent to handle matters between warring Datu's. As with most kingdoms the farther you get away from the seat of power the less control you can exert. Panglima's were the Sultan's enforcers and would insure that any stray Datu's were brought into line.

By the way. I read a couple of Peter Gowing's books. Mostly he borrowed from what was already published -no new insights of his own. In addition he spent all of his time in the Lake Lanao (Marawi) region of Central Mindanao which has signifigantly different cultural aspects from Sulu. Thomas Keiffer wrote what I thought was the most insightful book on the workings of the Sulu culture in his Book "The Tausug". He spent 2 years living with the Tausug in Eastern Sulu.

Dan

Spunjer

20th December 2011, 09:53 PM

pictured is Panglima Unga, barung master extraordinaire, patriarch of the Unga clan from Talipao

to reinterate on the ranking system in Sulu: A datu comes from the royal line. His father is either the Sultan or a datu. A panglima is the head of a kauman or district, that is large enough. The title is conferred upon the person by the sultan. The Panglima represents the people in matters to be brought to the sultan, like a mayor. some Panglima are chosen as members of the Ruma Bichara, which is like a Parliiament. The Ruma Bichara (supreme council or "house of talk") formulates laws and decides with the Sultan questions on matters of state, where the Panglima members are like the House of Commons and the Datu members are like the House of Lords. The Ruma Bichara also decides who is and proclaims the Sultan. No Sultan can be proclaimed by any one person unilaterally. It has to be the unanimous choice of the Ruma Bichara. The term "panglima" started when there were only five districts in the sultanate: Maimbung, Patikul, Parang, Luuk, and Latih. Thus, pangLIMA. They were the "hand, eyes and ears" of the Sultan.

Battara

20th December 2011, 11:04 PM

I think my dad said the same thing about this picture when he saw it in Cato's book, that this was panglima Unga.

As far as panglima is concerned, I wonder if this also applies to Aceh in Indonesia, since the term I believe is also used there and the panglima is also chosen by the sultan there (pre-Aceh War).