The Scythe as a weapon.

[Peter Hudson]

I recently attended a most interesting course on scythe use as a tool for cutting the grass... and the group then commenced work in tidying up one of the ancient church yards of Saint Cuthbert over in Corsenside Northumberland ...
A number of things struck me on this item since it would seem to be weapon related as a lot of farm utensils are as well as its interesting old fashioned method of sharpening which I think is peculiar to the Scythe only but may indicate an ancient sword blade sharpening system? A technique giving the blade an extremely sharp cutting edge reminicent to the hollow blade edge on swords we hear of on some European weapons. However in relation to its ancient history as a farm tool I have placed this on Ethnographic ..but moderators may see this as a moveable feast...

The whats in a word connundrum crops up as it would be easy to suggest that Scythe comes from Scythia although the word root appears to be Old English ...more on that later...

I looked at Scythes on Library and there are a few references there but mainly of the shorter curved or hooked item...

I place the fine picture below to see member interest and will continue the detective work soon.

This picture is noted as of Polish Scythemen from 1863.

[Peter Hudson]

and from Wikepedia for the next bit... Scythes may date back as far as c. 5000 BC; they seem to have been used since Cucuteni–Trypillia settlements, becoming widespread with agricultural developments.[citation needed] Initially used mostly for mowing hay, it had replaced the sickle for reaping crops by the 16th century, as the scythe was better ergonomically and consequently more efficient.[citation needed] In about 1800 the grain cradle was sometimes added to the standard scythe when mowing grain; the cradle was an addition of light wooden fingers above the scythe blade which kept the grain stems aligned and the heads together to make the collection and threshing easier. In the developed world, the scythe has been largely replaced by the motorised lawn mower and combine harvester. However, the scythe remained in common use for many years after the introduction of machines because a side-mounted finger-bar mower – whether horse- or tractor-drawn – could not mow in front of itself, and scythes were still needed to open up a meadow by clearing the first swathe to give the mechanical mower room to start.[citation needed]

The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities of Sir William Smith argues that the scythe, known in Latin as the falx foenaria as opposed to the sickle, the falx messoria, was used by the ancient Romans.[citation needed] According to ancient Greek mythology, Gaia – the Greek goddess and mother of the Titans – gave a sickle made of the strongest metal to her youngest son Kronos, who is also the youngest of the Titans and god of the harvest, to seek vengeance against her husband Ouranos for torturing their eldest sons. The Grim Reaper is often depicted carrying or wielding a scythe. According to Jack Herer and Flesh of The Gods (Emboden, W. A. Jr., Praeger Press, New York, 1974), the ancient Scythians grew hemp and harvested it with a hand reaper that would be considered a scythe.[citation needed]

[Peter Hudson]

AND...Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe_sword
QUOTE; Scythe sword
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The scythe sword of Thomas Müntzer and a representation of the "summer" half of its runic calendar.
The scythe sword (Sensenschwert) was a type of single-edged sword of the German Renaissance, related to the Dussack. It consisted of the blade of a scythe to which a sword hilt was attached. Like the falx or falcata of antiquity, it was thus a curved sword with the cutting edge on the inside (as opposed to the scimitar or sabre type with the edge on the outside).

The only known surviving example of a true scythe sword (its blade being made from an actual scythe), is that of Thomas Müntzer (1489–1525), kept in the Historical Museum, Dresden. This sword has a representation of a runic calendar incised on the blade. Demmin (1893) notes the existence of other sword blades of the early 16th century bearing runic calendars in Berlin, Vienna, Paris, Munich, Graz and Luxembourg. SEE below ....

It is possible that “scythe sword” may refer to the Thracian romphaia (Greek: ῥομφαία), most commonly a long curved blade with its[1] cutting edge on the concave or inside edge with a piercing point, attached to a pole (wood handle) that's shorter than the blade.

The Thracian romphaia is often compared to a Dacian falx, a longer version of a romphaia.

The romphaia was a close-combat bladed weapon used by the Thracians as early as 350-400 BC.

The two-handed falx is clearly related to the Thracian rhomphaia. It is a derivative of both the sword and the spear, used by the Dacians.

Both the romphaia and dax weapons were made in one hand and two handed versions. Most surviving examples suggest the smaller shorter “one hand” type actually would have been “hand and a half”, where the second hand was used more as a lever to make strokes, thrusts, recoveries and angle of attack changes more rapid and fluid.

So, “scythe sword” could refer to a romphaia, or dax possibly.

[Peter Hudson]

For an excellent video on Peening and Sharpening a Scythe blade please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWcNaceWWY

[Peter Hudson]

Khopesh.

This bronze khopesh, or sickle-sword, was found near Jerusalem and dates to the Late Bronze Age, circa 1500 B.C. The sword is sharpened on the outer edge of the curved portion of the blade. The khopesh originated in Egypt and was one of the signature weapons of Egyptian troops during the Middle and New Kingdom periods.

[Peter Hudson]

Dacian Falx.

[Teisani]

I wouldn't lump the kopesh with scythe-like weapons (like the falx) since one has the edge on the outer, the other on the inner. Not to mention very different cultures/geography/period.

[Peter Hudson]

A word on RHOMPHAIA and fromhttps://periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/the-byzantineeastern-roman-rhomphaia/I QUOTE"Modern researchers of medieval military history often wonder what was the nature of the Byzantine weapon called ‘rhomphaia’? The rhomphaia (or rhomphaea) of Antiquity was a weapon of the Thracians, which consisted of a long straight or slightly curved sickle-shaped blade mounted on a long wooden shaft. If the rhomphaia was sickle-shaped, the cutting edge was located on the inner (concave) side of the blade. Specifically the curved rhomphaia belonged to the group of spears and swords with scythe blade which included the kopis, the machaira, the falcata, the falx and others which were used by various peoples of the ancient Mediterranean that is to say the Iberians, Celtiberians, Greeks, Thracians, Etruscans, Lycians, Carians, Lydians, Phrygians, Dacians and others. Their original source is unknown and sometimes the researchers try to locate it. Our opinion is that they are products of polygenesis".UNQUOTE.

https://periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2021/08/09/swordsmanship-of-the-bronze-age-new-perceptions-from-experiments/
RHOMPHAIA excavated below left and a reproduction at right.;

[Peter Hudson]

I wouldn't lump the kopesh with scythe-like weapons (like the falx) since one has the edge on the outer, the other on the inner. Not to mention very different cultures/geography/period.

Yes I agree however, The Kopesh does have another name...The Sickle Sword ...thus it gets in to the general picture. To get the full view of weapons down the ages it is fair to view early development in a variety of regions to consider the Scythe architecture development if any...I think my #3 defines where I may look regarding weapon developments on Scythe shaped blades and that does include Anciant Roman / Egyptian or other countries variants used or met on the battlefield.

One peculiar Scythe that I viewed on my Scythe course was a very sharp almost 4 foot bladed Flambouyant edged item that regrettably I didnt get a chance to photograph ...

It begins to be clear to me that to get a more useful weapon needed some thought to the hilt, handle or Haft fitted to the blade and what if any other attachments would enhance the item like a spear tip or hook to make it viable against cavalry? ... I think that is apparent in my first picture of this thread and a further group of Polish cmbatants that is about to show...see next post please. .

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Another Polish illustration of Scythe weaponry...222367

[Interested Party]

For an excellent video on Peening and Sharpening a Scythe blade please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWcNaceWWY

Very, very interesting. I wish I had this information 30 years ago. A weapon would need a very soft temper for this technique. From what the gentleman said in the video the technique also seemed to work harden the edge a bit. For cloth armor it would create a very effective cutting edge. It seems to be a very frugal practice in that it does not remove very much metal for the initial sharpening.

Thanks for the thread.

[Teisani]

If you are interested in the falx, you can try Borangic Cătălin's work. It's in Romanian, but the pictures of relics are nice a reference. Here are a few of his works, you can find more, just search "falx Borangic Cătălin".

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/1978947/Borangic_C_Falx_dacica_II_Tentativa_de_reconstitui re

https://www.slideshare.net/dadamamusa/borangic-c-falx-dacica-i-propunere-pentru-o-tipologie-a-armelor-curbe-dacice-nemvs-i-12-2006

https://www.laurlucus.ro/bibliotheca-lucus/stiinte-auxiliare/arheologie/falx-dacica-ii-tentativa-reconstituire

https://archive.org/details/borangicc.falxdacica.suggestionfordaciancurvedtype ssofweaponsstudiidacice2008extras/page/n1/mode/2up

And one source for the sica (in Russian): https://proviaspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/%D0%A2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%9D.-%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D 0%B8%D1%8F.pdf

[Peter Hudson]

Very, very interesting. I wish I had this information 30 years ago. A weapon would need a very soft temper for this technique. From what the gentleman said in the video the technique also seemed to work harden the edge a bit. For cloth armor it would create a very effective cutting edge. It seems to be a very frugal practice in that it does not remove very much metal for the initial sharpening.

Thanks for the thread.



Thank you for your post...Indeed I was completely amazed by these little gadgets making up the set of wheel jigs and the very basic technique that puts a razor edge on Scythes. This video went even further by using a aluminium rod to finally remove any burrs on the edge. This is a simple piece of easy to operate engineering that puts a superb edge on a Scythe ... and is really used on only one face of the blade. I would describe the edge as a hammered and pushed hollow edge.

My main interest in seeing this technique is related to Swords of Shotley Bridge and the conundrum of Hollow Blade production through a supposed 17th C tool brought there by a Swedish engineer/Industrial Spy... Reinhold Angerstein... but which largely seemed to be a fictional item until it was rediscovered by one of our Forum members and who wrote the book on Shotley Bridge Swords...SEE for example Swords of Shotley Bridge at Library by ...His Name on Forum is urbanspaceman.

[Peter Hudson]

If you are interested in the falx, you can try Borangic Cătălin's work. It's in Romanian, but the pictures of relics are nice a reference. Here are a few of his works, you can find more, just search "falx Borangic Cătălin".

http://cclbsebes.ro/docs/sebus/08_Borangic.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/1978947/Borangic_C_Falx_dacica_II_Tentativa_de_reconstitui re

https://www.slideshare.net/dadamamusa/borangic-c-falx-dacica-i-propunere-pentru-o-tipologie-a-armelor-curbe-dacice-nemvs-i-12-2006

https://www.laurlucus.ro/bibliotheca-lucus/stiinte-auxiliare/arheologie/falx-dacica-ii-tentativa-reconstituire

https://archive.org/details/borangicc.falxdacica.suggestionfordaciancurvedtype ssofweaponsstudiidacice2008extras/page/n1/mode/2up

And one source for the sica (in Russian): https://proviaspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/%D0%A2%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%9D.-%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D 0%B8%D1%8F.pdf


Dear Teisani,
Thank you very much for a set of brilliant references I just spent an hour looking at the fascinating studies ... Excellent!!!

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a brilliant and as always, thorough, examination of the scythe and the weapons it inspired through history. Its an amazing and as seen here, complex topic as the etymology and use of the term of course seems to have been used in some variation such as referring to a deeply curved blade. Clearly the chief advantage of the inside curve is that the blade essentially grabs its target holding to it as it cuts.

The interesting and somewhat mysterious Black Sea 'yataghan' (pictured with burgundy scabbard) was in years before compared to the khopesh of ancient Egypt, which of course was a purely visual notion. It was also similar to an Assyrian sword with similar recurve. These 18th century swords were later determined to be Laz Bichagi from Transcaucasian regions and Anatolia.
I would note the Assyrian sword was shown in Burton (1884, p.208) as a 'sapara' and had a blade with inside curve. Other Assyrian weapons were hafted sickle types with deep curve as well.

Other modern versions of 'sickle' sword would be the shotel of Ethiopia of 19th century used into 20th. This deeply parabolic bladed sword was believed to facilitate reaching over or around a defending shield. (last image)

The 16th century German saber from Germany with sickle blade is most interesting and reminds me somewhat of art by Durer with similar dusagge type swords. The chain on the hilt is of interest and I hadnt realized this affectation was this early. It is of course well known on court and various European dress swords of late 17th through 18th c. and later.
The runic inscriptions are amazing!!!

Great note on the grinding wheels and these machines in the great Shotley Bridge mystery! the fascinating book by Keith revealing more on this subject as well as the complex intrigues of sword making in England in the17th into 18th century. Some of the most tenacious research I have ever seen.

[Peter Hudson]

Thanks Jim that is a great post and carries superb details and pictures adding depth to the theme ...Regards Peter Hudson.

I thought just to field a battle scene painted and showing Scythemen deploying for battle in Poland. Scythemen in 1831, led by Emilia Plater. Gouache by Jan Rosen

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Peter. Thank-you for this fascinating thread and thank-you even more for that peening video: I was transfixed.
The grass and weeds in my back garden would benefit from a good scything but will have to make do with a powered brush cutter.
However, it seems to me that the peening technique will make a good job of the edge on my garden machete; I am sure I can rig up a suitable anvil to practice with.
Incidentally: I didn't see anything about wheels... am I overlooking something?

On a separate note apropos of that double mention of my Shotley Bridge research: the book just keeps getting better and better as I continue to re-draft, amend and augment. One day I will have to stop. Up to date pdf versions are readily available... just ask.

[kronckew]

The khopesh appears to have evolved from the Epsilon Axe popular in the area at the time. Not from the sickle or scythe. Being ductile bronze, it (and the epsilon) was not used for chopping, but for slicing draw and push cuts. There was a 'chopping' version of the axe, the duckbill, that was designed for chopping, and the egyptian bronze penetrative axe was also.

[Jim McDougall]

Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons.

It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

[Peter Hudson]

Dear Kronckew,

Indeed it is the difficulty in knowing what a Scythe looked like in ancient times which makes how if at all it developed into a weapon... It is probable that a sickle form developed into a weapon although where and when and what these weapons were is a hard guess... Add to that the number of sword types as in the second picture on https://www.pinterest.co.uk/buzzpinard/swords/
As the search spreads out so do the permutations and many must be developments in a similar but quite unrelated forms such as at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karambit Add the Panabas to that situation seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panabas

Closer to home may be the creation we know as Yatagan... however my initial question was I hope more specific and which I hope I have indicated in and arround the Polish variants of purely battle pole arms in the pictures at thread. As a caveat to that I am interested in knowing what Austria has to do with the tool and or weapon? since the Scythe is often termed The Austrian Scythe....and did that come about from a Sword type or Scythe introduced from Ottoman concepts into Styria?
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Peter. Thank-you for this fascinating thread and thank-you even more for that peening video: I was transfixed.
The grass and weeds in my back garden would benefit from a good scything but will have to make do with a powered brush cutter.
However, it seems to me that the peening technique will make a good job of the edge on my garden machete; I am sure I can rig up a suitable anvil to practice with.
Incidentally: I didn't see anything about wheels... am I overlooking something?

On a separate note apropos of that double mention of my Shotley Bridge research: the book just keeps getting better and better as I continue to re-draft, amend and augment. One day I will have to stop. Up to date pdf versions are readily available... just ask.

Dear Keith, Yes the wheel confusion was because at first sight the Jigs looked like small wheels...A good scythe sharpener could finish dozens of Scythes a day using these tools. It seemed to me that hollow grinding may have been related to this effect. Look up http://scytheassociation.org/history/ as a great reference on Scythes.

Regards Peter.

[Peter Hudson]

Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons.

It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.


Hello Jim and you point on iron is well taken. I noted that often the weapon was left unsharpened and this could have been that it was more of a badge of office as a Pharoah guard...
Regards, Peter.

[Peter Hudson]

The history of Scythes is well covered at http://scytheassociation.org/history/

[Peter Hudson]

In choosing where to search for where to look at how weapons developed from The Scythe and/or the Sickle it is worth noting from a key reference at http://scytheassociation.org/history/QUOTE"The scythe is a tool specially adapted for cutting vegetation at ground level. There is no other reason for its existence: it is useless at hand height and (unlike the machete) very unwieldy as a weapon. Initially it was probably designed for grass; but as pasture became harder to find, and livestock were increasingly fed on different kinds of straw, the importance of cutting oats, barley and other grains close to the ground became more important and the scythe began to replace the sickle as a way of harvesting crops. The scythe is therefore found in most areas of the world where grass and grains such as wheat, barley, oats or rye are the predominate agricultural crop. The scythe belt emanates from Europe and the Middle East, but extends from the Mid West of Canada and the US A, through the whole of Europe, much of Russia, the Middle East, Egypt and some other north African countries, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Kirghizstan and other colonies of the former USSR, a few parts of China and of the Indian subcontinent to Australia".UNQUOTE.

[Peter Hudson]

During the Kościuszko Uprising, Chrystian_Piotr_Aigner pictured below wrote "Krótka nauka o kosach i pikach" ("A Brief Treatise on Scythes and Pikes"), which provided a theory for operating on the field of battle with formations of scythemen and pikemen.[9]

[Peter Hudson]

i DISCOVERED A SUPERB RENDITION about Scythes...as weapons of war at
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquaries-journal/article/desperat-wepon-rehafted-scythes-at-sedgemoor-in-warfare-and-at-the-tower-of-london/2D082CAF9EDB7597583D72E20A96F73D

It gives a breakdown of more than 500 years of conclusive use of Scythes as weapons of war in Europe and names many museums where they are displayed.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

The detail below; The Morning of Sedgemoor by Edgar Bundy (1862–1922). The artist shows the improvised nature of the weapon, the blade lashed to a crudely dressed sapling. Image: Tate/Digital Image © Tate, London 2014. The Battle detail is: The Battle of Sedgemoor was the last and decisive engagement between the Kingdom of England and rebels led by the Duke of Monmouth during the Monmouth rebellion, fought on 6 July 1685.

[Peter Hudson]

....a further atmospheric piece of artwork showing the Scythe as a war weapon from Poland. At the Polish Military Museum ... From 1794.

[thinreadline]

elslewhere I have posted what I believe to be a Chinese polearm which cane out of a large castle like manor house in North Wales along with this scythe type polearm

[Peter Hudson]

It apppears that many battles included scythes converted to weapons and the example you show may be one of these. My reference at #26 above gives dozens of examples all over Europe and in England plus the museums in which examples may still be seen.

Thanks for adding this example.



The Painting below illustrates Russian Guns being over run by charging Polish soldiers many weilding Scythe weapons. .

[werecow]

This thread and particularly the scythe sword above reminds me of this bizarre little sword I picked up a few years ago from a Dutch vendor.

It's about 74cm long out of the scabbard. POB about 9.5cm from the guard.
The blade is not sharpened, or possibly blunted (has about a .5mm edge; no patina and some file marks on the edge that are hard to capture on camera).
I can't comment as to the quality of the steel but it has significant distal taper, from 8mm at the guard to about 3mm at the end of the fuller. It has a few seemingly random letters stamped into it QHUOS and below it W1I and then an upside down 7.
The guard seems to be nickel plated. I think the grip wrapping and washer are some sort of imitation sharkskin and they're not very substantial. The pommel has an obvious nut and bolt construction, but I haven't tried opening it up for fear of damaging something as I am a novice.
The scabbard is rather thin metal and seems to have been blued. The rings are on the inside of the curve, and it has a working locking mechanism that fits the button/clip on the guard.

At first I thought it might be a replacement blade on an old D-guard, but the scabbard is clearly made for it.

I'd love your opinion on it... Since it's a sickle sword and I got it from an area near Belgium, maybe central African (Congo, Ethiopia)? European late 19th/early 20th century april fool's joke? Modern day smithing experiment?

[Peter Hudson]

Thank you for your pictures and questions. The short answer is I dont know however I did have a good look for similar styles but didnt have any luck except a Japanese Type 32 Cavalry sabre. with a securing device similar to what is seen on your sword. Lets hope a member can narrow this down a bit.. Regards Peter Hudson.

[Teisani]

National History Museum Bucharest.
Sica discovered at Orodel, Dolj county, Romania.
Falx discovered at Sarmizegetusa Romania.

[Teisani]

Depictions of falx on Trajan's Column. Replica at the National History Museum in Bucharest.

[fernando]

The rings are on the inside of the curve ... European late 19th/early 20th century april fool's joke? Modern day smithing experiment?
Have you tried hanging the scabbard (with the sword) by its suspension rings ? does it stay balanced or the weight of knuckle guard tends to twist it ?

[werecow]

Have you tried hanging the scabbard (with the sword) by its suspension rings ? does it stay balanced or the weight of knuckle guard tends to twist it ?

It definitely wants to twist.

[fernando]

One (crucial) detail the inventor of this 'prototype' didn't ponder on ;).

[Peter Hudson]

Returning to the original post at #1 on this thread I refer readers to the technique of fighting with the Scythe Weapon seen below. A squad of 12 men could effectively defend against charging Cavalry by mixing Scythe weapons with spear carriers.. It would appear that the greatest danger would be to the horses from the downward slashes of the Scythes. Variant forms are shown in the second chart. Records show that large numbers of Scythemen were included in the Orbat of Polish troops even to the point of over running Russian Artillery positions. Certainly the weapon would have had a psycholigical advantage upon the enemy and the damage would have been enormous.

Peter Hudson.

[werecow]

One (crucial) detail the inventor of this 'prototype' didn't ponder on ;).

Yeah that definitely votes against it ever have been used in practice. I still wonder where / when it came from and what the idea was.

[fernando]

... A squad of 12 men could effectively defend against charging Cavalry by mixing Scythe weapons with spear carriers.. It would appear that the greatest danger would be to the horses from the downward slashes of the Scythes. Variant forms are shown in the second chart. Records show that large numbers of Sythemen were included in the Orbat of Polish troops even to the point of over running Russian Artillery positions. Certainly the weapon would have had a psycholigical advantage upon the enemy and the damage would have been enormous. ..

Impressive !

[Peter Hudson]

Further weapons made from Scythes.

[Peter Hudson]

I note from Forum athttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=97452 #5 the picture below

[Peter Hudson]

Please see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquaries-journal/article/desperat-wepon-rehafted-scythes-at-sedgemoor-in-warfare-and-at-the-tower-of-london/2D082CAF9EDB7597583D72E20A96F73D

I think the above reference well supports the idea of the Scythe used in war.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Fantastic account of Monmouth's ill fated rebellion. I mentioned it briefly in my Shotley Bridge history but had never delved deeply into the affair. Brilliant account. Thank-you.

[A. G. Maisey]

The scythe as a weapon is something that has puzzled me for a long time, principally because 60 or so years back I had a weekend job clearing neglected building blocks that had become overgrown with grass, and I used a scythe to do the work, I could not understand how a scythe blade could possibly be mounted on a pole, the way the pictures I had available back then showed it as a weapon, the tang & mounting hook on the only scythes I knew where not straight, but were bent at a couple of angles.

Then there was the memory of what I had been taught in high school, that the English scythe had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Scythians known to the Romans, apparently the word "Scythian" & "Scythia" as they were Anglicised , had come from an old Persian word meaning shepherd(?), and that old Persian word had gone through several transliterations and corruptions before it came into Old English in a form that can no longer be spelt with English letters, thus another corruption took place & we finished with with "scythe", & that was a tool.

Is it possible that the tool we now know as a scythe is in fact not related at all to the sword-like weapon that resembles a scythe in form? Thus two objects, a tool, & a weapon that do have similarities, but are of totally different origin.

Can anybody clarify this matter for me?

Thank you.

[Peter Hudson]

The scythe as a weapon is something that has puzzled me for a long time, principally because 60 or so years back I had a weekend job clearing neglected building blocks that had become overgrown with grass, and I used a scythe to do the work, I could not understand how a scythe blade could possibly be mounted on a pole, the way the pictures I had available back then showed it as a weapon, the tang & mounting hook on the only scythes I knew where not straight, but were bent at a couple of angles.

Then there was the memory of what I had been taught in high school, that the English scythe had absolutely nothing at all to do with the Scythians known to the Romans, apparently the word "Scythian" & "Scythia" as they were Anglicised , had come from an old Persian word meaning shepherd(?), and that old Persian word had gone through several transliterations and corruptions before it came into Old English in a form that can no longer be spelt with English letters, thus another corruption took place & we finished with with "scythe", & that was a tool.

Is it possible that the tool we now know as a scythe is in fact not related at all to the sword-like weapon that resembles a scythe in form? Thus two objects, a tool, & a weapon that do have similarities, but are of totally different origin.

Can anybody clarify this matter for me?

Thank you.

Greetings AG Maisey,...The word "scythe" derives from Old English siðe. In Middle English and later, it was usually spelt sithe or sythe. However, in the 15th century some writers began to use the sc- spelling as they thought (wrongly) the word was related to the Latin scindere (meaning "to cut")

That must mean that the word Scythe the cutting tool has nothing to do with Scythia the country as it is a spelling mistake. The name Scythia ...the country does appear to mean country of the nomads...actually brilliant horsemen...which I suppose is the same as sheep or goat herders..or shepherds.....thus SCYTHIA was the name that stuck...

I have tried to show how the tool became modified as a weapon..and although there is even a Fektbok illustrating duelling Scythes unmodified it is clear that the Polish were leading the field in using the weapon as a sort of spear/ pole weapon...but that it also appears on other countries armouries and seen in many English battles.
I have seen Artwork of a Jacobite battle where Scythes were used and in that incident an English officer had been killed by being struck by a Scythe so modified... But I cannot find the artwork!!... so annoying when that happens... As it happens the swordmakers of Shotley Bridge made agricultural tools and one of those was Scythes...

Regards,Peter Hudson.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Peter.

So it seems that things are pretty much as I thought them to be.

The Oxford Dictionary on Historical principles places first usage of the current spelling in the early 1500's, and as you have demonstrated we simply do not have the necessary tools to write the word as it was written originally.

Yes, I understand that the Scythians of the ancient Greeks & Romans were a nomadic people, but I suspect that a close examination of the etymology of "Scythian" might well provide a different root.

As to actual working scythes being used as weapons, I guess they could have been, one thought that comes to mind immediately is that they might be very useful in removing the lower parts of a horse's leg --- or a man's leg for that matter. Echoes of MP & the Search for the Holy Grail.

[Peter Hudson]

Yes I think your final paragraph has it...Where a word becomes muddled in meaning because of mis spelling I think that has thrown people here ...My notes above have focussed on the war scythe and the facts seem to point at fairly extensive useage of the modified Scythr as a type of peasant spear cheap and easy to modify and lethal against Cavalry ...and infantry.
The area that has little meat on its bones is in the use of teh Scythe blade as a backsword as the only viable form appears here...and is only a sketch but is intersting;

please see https ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe_sword


That sword sketch can also be seen at #3 above.

The scythe sword of Thomas Müntzer and a representation of the "summer" half of its runic calendar.
The scythe sword (Sensenschwert) was a type of single-edged sword of the German Renaissance, related to the Dussack. It consisted of the blade of a scythe to which a sword hilt was attached. Like the falx or falcata of antiquity, it was thus a curved sword with the cutting edge on the inside (as opposed to the scimitar or sabre type with the edge on the outside).

The only known surviving example of a true scythe sword (its blade being made from an actual scythe), is that of Thomas Müntzer (1489–1525), kept in the Historical Museum, Dresden. This sword has a representation of a runic calendar incised on the blade. Demmin (1893) notes the existence of other sword blades of the early 16th century bearing runic calendars in Berlin, Vienna, Paris, Munich, Graz and Luxembourg.

It is possible that "scythe sword" may refer to the Thracian romphaia (Greek: ῥομφαία), most commonly a long curved blade with its[1] cutting edge on the concave or inside edge with a piercing point, attached to a pole (wood handle) that's shorter than the blade.

The Thracian romphaia is often compared to a Dacian falx, a longer version of a romphaia.

The romphaia was a close-combat bladed weapon used by the Thracians as early as 350–400 BC.

The two-handed falx is clearly related to the Thracian rhomphaia. It is a derivative of both the sword and the spear, used by the Dacians.

Both the romphaia and falx weapons were made in one hand and two handed versions. Most surviving examples suggest the smaller shorter "one hand" type actually would have been "hand and a half", where the second hand was used more as a lever to make strokes, thrusts, recoveries and angle of attack changes more rapid and fluid.

So, "scythe sword" could refer to a romphaia, or falx possibly.

[Peter Hudson]

Here is an artwork worth noting for its illustration of a modified Scythe used in the centre against a mounted Knight ... This was in the early 1500s. This underscores the use of such improvised agricultural tools in war.

Please see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Page077_Die_letzte_Bauernschlacht_bei_Frankenhause n_am_25._Mai_1525.jpg

[Peter Hudson]

Here is that picture...

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Peter.

This area of weaponry is a very long way from my own area of interest, & I freely admit I know very little about ancient European weaponry, however, to my eye there is a glaring anomaly in the foremost scythe-like blade in this picture.

I refer to the scythe-like weapon held by the man in the red jacket, front centre.

The blade of this weapon appears to be affixed to the shaft with a socket mounting.

I am not some sort of expert on the development history of scythes, but every scythe I have ever seen, every picture of a scythe I have ever seen, has the blade mounted at 90 degrees to the shaft, the scythe is used parrallel to & a little above ground level, it is used by putting the whole weight of the body behind the swing of the blade, the ergometric action comes from waist and shoulders.

The scythe as a tool cannot have a socket mounted blade, and for a smith to remove the original tang mount and replace with a socket would require smithing work that would be perhaps more difficult than to make a new blade.

Perhaps, because of material shortages this might have been done, but it seems to me that to make a scythe-like blade would be a whole lot easier than to take a perfectly good tool and try to turn it into a functional weapon.

The scythe blade in large part owes its effectiveness as a harvesting tool to its very thin blade supported by a heavy back, to remove the tang and replace with a socket, & then to remove the socket & replace with a tang when conflict was over, would be an expensive & relatively difficult exercise.

Is it possible that the type of scythe-like weapon shown in this picture was in fact a purpose made weapon, not a converted farmer's tool?

[Peter Hudson]

It was apparently an easy job for a blacksmith to take the Scythe Blade off and re align the connection for a shaft so that the blade became a spear like extension . That is apparent in English and Polish examples of this weapon. Making a sword would be more complicated ...perhaps that is why not so many sword examples exist...

Actually post 37 shows the different stages a scythe blade needed to go through to do the work...

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquaries-journal/article/desperat-wepon-rehafted-scythes-at-sedgemoor-in-warfare-and-at-the-tower-of-london/2D082CAF9EDB7597583D72E20A96F73D

This webpage above is full of historical examples of Scythes in a war role and has also set out several methods by which a Scythe can be converted to a weapon. The original stath or scythe pole is ditched for a longer straight pole and various methods are noted for attaching the blade to its new pole.

Peter Hudson.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Peter, that Cambridge article needs a close look.

I do understand forge work very well, and if the angled tang is simply reforged to a straight tang, then that is a quick, easy job and easy to reverse. My problem with the red jacket man in the pic is that the blade looks to have a socket rather than a tang, but maybe we're seeing a ferrule rather than a socket, in which case the blade could have a straight tang.

A quick glance at the Cambridge article shows that sometimes mechanical means were used to provide a blade mounting, this is something that did not occur to me, but I guess in desperate times it becomes a matter of whatever will fill the need is used, without too much thought of integrity or durability.

The idea that making a sword is complicated depends totally upon the quality of the sword. To make a functional blade that could be mounted as a sword is not at all a difficult nor a lengthy job, but to make a quality blade and then mount it as a quality sword is not easy work, nor is it work that takes a short period of time. Saturday night Specials are inexpensive, elegant weapons can cost a kingdom. Perhaps the reason for a small population of swords might be related to several reasons & could embrace both economic and hierarchical reasons?

Thank you for assisting my understanding.

[werecow]

Yes I think your final paragraph has it...Where a word becomes muddled in meaning because of mis spelling I think that has thrown people here ...My notes above have focussed on the war scythe and the facts seem to point at fairly extensive useage of the modified Scythr as a type of peasant spear cheap and easy to modify and lethal against Cavalry ...and infantry.
The area that has little meat on its bones is in the use of teh Scythe blade as a backsword as the only viable form appears here...and is only a sketch but is intersting;

please see https ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe_sword


That sword sketch can also be seen at #3 above.


The sensenschwert image, for future reference.

[Peter Hudson]

Yes but its already placed at #3.

[Peter Hudson]

Finally an imptression of the way Scythes were modified on the forge...

[A. G. Maisey]

Truly Peter?

I can see people working at an anvil with hot metal, & I can see blades that I guess are scythe blades on the floor with modified tangs, but are the men working at the anvil supposed to be modifying a scythe tang?

[Peter Hudson]

Yes. Posts 41 and 37 both show the different stages to go through to modify the Scythe blades . The soldiers are waiting in the Forge picture above with poles waiting to be fitted as spears and as illustrated in the earlier battle scenes.

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

230630

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Peter.

I do appreciate your clarification of my understanding of the scythe as a weapon.

I believe that what we can see on the anvil is a billet and it appears to be being forged out to a different dimension, so perhaps what the smith is working on is intended for use in mounting the already modified blade to shaft, I cannot see how it relates to the modification of the blade, but it might relate to the mounting of the blade.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Norman McCormick]

Not relevant.

[Peter Hudson]

Ah yes .The German Fektbok illuatrations.
These publications were aimed at the aristocratic members of the various fight schools as can be seen by the portrayal of men dressed in the latest fashions of the day. The participants shown are not the peasant members of European society...

I therefor ruled them out of the equation early on since this is not how Scythes were used in war. Imagine an opponent with a spear or sword opposing...

The whole idea behind war scythes was that they were available and cheap to use and training took a few minutes. The War Scythes were designed for the masses. It was a spearing jabbing slashing chopping weapon...

No one in their right mind would go into a battle armed with the scythe shown in this way nor would they be dressed like princes at court...

The blades were taken off and refitted reforged/ and reinforced where required and fitted for their new role as Pole arms. New straight longer wooden poles were required... thus this agricultural tool went to war.

[Peter Hudson]

From Origins of a New Regiment by Allan Mallinson Page 5. I Quote" It was all over in less than 10 minutes; Colonel Gardiner (CO of The 13th Dragoons) was killed trying to rally his and other troops; A highlander cut him down from his horse with a Scythe fastened to a pole and as he fell another highlander delivered a mortal blow to the head with a battle axe".Unquote.

Regards Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

for interest see https://www.geriwalton.com/legendary-french-drummer-boy-joseph-bara/

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.

In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station.
Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms.

What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them.

With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking.

The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner.

Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here).
In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel).

Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms.

[fernando]

This is a magnificent painting of a most sordid event...
Ditto !

[Peter Hudson]

This is a magnificent painting of a most tragic event, and these polearms of course appear to be actual scythes in the field tool category being used as weapons. The use of field implements as weapons as is, rather than the ploughshares, files etc. repurposed into edged weapons, was actually of course commonplace through time. In this painting, the weapons held resemble more the bardische (in first attachment the Austrian type). These varied widely, but like the scythe, were likely field implements as required. While not typically noted in military accounts, the rather menial task of foraging to feed animals likely had weapons like these used in such context.

In early armies, the masses of forces were typically huge numbers of peasantry who served more as 'cannon fodder' in the huge fields of battle. Naturally, these men used whatever tools or implements they had as arms and armor were expensive and typically owned and used by well heeled individuals and those of standing or station.
Many of these implements became various forms of polearm from the bills, and various types of field implements which became the basis for these types of arms.

What comes to mind is that the familiar 'sickle' marks (dual dentated arcs) which are well known on sword blades, originally associated with Genoa but later widely copied, may well have represented blade makers, who made tools as well as weapons. This may have been the source of the colloquially used term for them.

With the sickle, which apparantly were hafted as well as pole mounted, these were of course effective weapons typically, with use pole mounted more viable for the fighter on foot to reach mounted men attacking.

The well known Lochaber axe of Scotland (last image) is of course pole mounted in the manner of the scythe, and equipped with a hook, to catch and pull the rider down. Another form of such weapon in Scotland was the Jedwart stave, in 16th c. but soon lost favor as it was too light to be effective in this manner.

Returning to the use of the sickle, it seems edged weapons of these forms have ancient representation as well, even the khopesh of Egypt seems a form of sickle type weapon (these well discussed and illustrated by Peter in the text here, just wanted to reiterate here).
In more modern times in Africa, the sickle swords of the Azande in Zaire (along with their throwing knives) as well as the Abyssinian shotel are said to have been used in the same type of 'hooking' manner to pull a shield away from a warrior to open him for spear thrust. (image with blue backing Azande; the other the shotel).

Pragmatically, it is widely held that most sickle type edged weapons were used in this manner in degree, however as deadly cutting weapons the effect would be obvious. With most rank and file often not military, but farmers and field workers, they needed no training in the use of these arms.

Hello Jim and thank you for posting this informative detail. I covered earlier how this strange sounding device appeared to have been wrongly named in history and how it became Scythe rather than perhaps Sithe. (# 44 and #45 of this thread refers.) But leaving the infamous whats in a name connundrum to one side ...I had been chasing something of a rumour about a scythe being used in the Jacobite campaign in 1745 ... Actully I noted that the date of Prestonpans was 1745 on my recent post above but when I went back to my post on the subject I must have missed the opportunity to make the relevant connection thus it still shows my error on the date that I hurriedly must have typed as 1746...Oops!

On the topic of Artwork showing the demise of the Commanding Officer of The English 13th Regiment it has been difficult to view the Artistic impressions available but the Account in the book by Allan Mallinson appears to be precise ...and in that two weapons in particular had been key to bringing down the CO from his horse...The Scythe ...and then his death by a second highlander using an axe probably the famous Jedburgh Axe ... Certainly the picture I have now found below has in it a very clear image of what can only be A Scythe and typically refitted on a long pole was how the commander, Colonel Gardiner of The 13th was knocked off his horse. Interestingly the Artist has placed a highlander right behind the Scytheman carrying one of those axes. The Painting is from https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=death+of+co+of+13th+regiment+at+prestonpa ns+artwork+1&fr=yhs-fc-2461&type=fc_AC934C13286_s58_g_e_d032823_n9998_c999&hspart=fc&hsimp=yhs-2461&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Famazon.clikpic.com%2Fandrewar t%2Fimages%2Fdemise_of_col_Gardiner_-_battle_of_Prestonpans_reduced_jpeg1.jpg#id=-1&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Famazon.clikpic.com%2Fandrewart% 2Fimages%2Fdemise_of_col_Gardiner_-_battle_of_Prestonpans_reduced_jpeg1.jpg&action=click

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that.
It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways.
It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended).
Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements.
Please excuse my late appearance.

[Peter Hudson]

Are AG's arguments relevant to the subject?
Scythes as 'weapons of war' is the subject; and a fascinating one at that.
It appears to me that the soldiers are waiting on the blacksmiths for blades to be attached to their poles... it is an exceptional image in many ways.
It matters-not what is on the anvil, and any spurious speculation to that end is very much beside the point (no pun intended).
Of course the rural Chinese peasants were masters at developing very effective fighting styles using domestic materials and farming implements.
Please excuse my late appearance.

Hello Keith, Oh I thought so...and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... I think it is often dangerous or feels dodgey going out on a limb so far ... and with seemingly absolutely no interaction coming back for what seems like ages... AG Maisey picked up on the interesting word conundrum at his #44 which I might have missed ... .. By the way your detail on SCYTHES Being made at Shotley Bridge was very interesting... I recall a distant memory of looking at the garden spades in my Grandfathers shed which were stamped on the blade with the Shotley Bridge mark...That was when I was about 8... Anyway this thread gives us a chance to tie a lot of stuff in about Scythes being used in Partisan battles ... It also reminds me to try to picture the old Scythe I handled on my Scythe Course near Otterburn a year or two ago which was a Flambouyant bladed item; super sharp but without blademarks ... but what was eye opening was the apparently ancient sharpening tools that all Scythe users are taught... which consists of little wheels and a toffee hammer...and a sharpening stone and which in my view leads us back to the strange sword sharpening system probably used at Shotley Bridge in some form ...I wonder if those little wheels were used on Rapiers or Colchemardes...at Shotley Bridge... The key word is Peening I think.

Regards Peter Hudson

[fernando]

Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !



-

[Interested Party]

Hello Keith, Oh I thought so...and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... but what was eye opening was the apparently ancient sharpening tools that all Scythe users are taught... which consists of little wheels and a toffee hammer...and a sharpening stone and which in my view leads us back to the strange sword sharpening system probably used at Shotley Bridge in some form ...I wonder if those little wheels were used on Rapiers or Colchemardes...at Shotley Bridge... The key word is Peening I think.


I thought that system worked best on a softer blade and served to work harden a small section of the edge that then was maintained with a stone till the hardened section was used up? It seems that the temper on a small sword would be too hard?

[Interested Party]

"and it is always a pleasure to attract a response these days... "

I ran across some images a while back of forward curving swords in "Diderot's L'Encyclopedie, Art de L'escrime " that I thought i would share. Two have a forward curving blade complete with a cross section (non-scythelike) in the second plate. The third has some sheathed blades with guards that could indicate a forward curve, but more likely an artistic error.

Secondly, I have attached some pictures of a modern North American scythe to help clarify the issue on tangs. I do not know if Europe used this same system. To me the tang looks easily adaptable with only a few heats to a pole arm. The tang could be lengthened with a scarp weld and reinforced with a long sleave to add strength and some defense against being cut. This combination was used in some early middle age spears to my understanding.

[Peter Hudson]

Dear Interested Party,
Thank you for posting the accurate research illustrating sketches of Scythe blades ...and the other curved shaped blades from Fourbisseur references etc. The tangs on the Scythes are accurate and I believe you are correct in writing that the straightening out process would be simple and fast; converting this agricultural tool to a rudimentary but effective pole arm. This is great support and is good to see from Forum.
Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

The Scythe as a weapon clearly illustrated by the Artist.. Józef Chełmoński.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

In the late 1600s it is written that included in the weapons were converted farming tools as weapons which were noted amongst others as SCYTHES.

1548: On this day, an inventory was taken of all the munitions
and ordnance of war held within Newcastle. These give us a
fascinating insight into the machinery of sixteenth-century
warfare, as well as Newcastle's often surprising provisions
for conflict. Most of the foot soldiers were equipped with
black bills (a hooked blade on a 5-6 feet long stick) or bows
-there were 2,ooo of each! Others had pikes (4oo), and demilances (250) with smaller numbers of staves. Also held in the
city were weapons made by converting farming equipment
- hedging bills, scythes, sickles and axes.

[drdavid]

Just a minor late addition. In the interesting book Lotharingia by Simon Winder, he mentions in the chapter titled New Management at Hawk Castle that:

" In 1386 it was the turn Leopold III, Duke of Austria, who brought with him a specialised detachment of scythe troops to destroy the harvests as they headed south from Brugg. The Swiss killed him, together with a rich selection of local noblemen and most of his troops (including presumably the ones awkwardly carring only grass-cutting equipment) at the battle of Sempach."

Unfortunately he does not give a linked reference as to the source of this information.

DrD

[Peter Hudson]

On the web the battle of Sempach brings up this detail along with various artworks. Indeed the people carrying mowers were crop cutters and of no use in the battle. Interesting story Thanks.
Peter Hudson.