Dating the Schiavons sword

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I am trying to put together a rough dating chart for Schiavona Swords. Like many of us I keep a data base of examples that come up at auction however the dating is often just c1600, which given the length of time these swords were around rarely accurate. For this exercise I am ignoring the dates attributed to blades and just concentrating on Guard construction.

This is what I have put together thus far, based on my library and Oakeshott of course. I understand that this is not even close to covering the variations out there, but have just picked those that appear to show the progressive complication of the baskets.

Any help with dating or validating this chart would be most appreciated.

I am currently working on an article to cover the Schiavona and its use, so I thought I would start with a simple way of attributing the evolution and re-dating more accurately those examples already in my data base.

Also, if anyone has a copy of Jean Binck had also penned a short article back in 2003, I would be most grateful as I seem to have misplaced my copy and every link I find to it I have been unable to download

Cheers Cathey

[Hotspur]

I don't have a link handy for the Jean Binck article bit here is one by Nathan Robinson.
http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

Cheers
GC

[Hotspur]

Here through the wayback machine
http://web.archive.org/web/20181024141929/http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/schiavona.htm

[Cathey]

Thankyou Hotspur, much appreciated. I have also just found an article Jean sent me many years ago before we lost touch in French by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard. It is interesting, this is the first article that talks about the different scabbards.

Do you have any comments with regard to the dating chart, it is pretty much a best guess at this stage, I am hoping as I follow up references, I might be able to nail down the developmental stages. I will keep posting updates on my early research. I am surprised no one else has replied if only to criticise the assumptions in my chart.

Cheers Cathey.

[Cathey]

As a result of reading a french article by Martin Ehretsmann, part 1 and 2 the skeleton guard, I have revised my chart and brought it down to 8 patterns (or groups) becoming progressively more complex. Ending with the last and most complex of what Martin describes as the fishnet guards.

I understand that this does not cover ever variation but hope that I can use this as a method of grouping available examples and to try and create an easier chronology for collectors, particuarly new collector to follow.

As this chart represents the preparation work for an article on the Schiavona, I would be grateful for any assistance and advice.

I have patterns 2,4 and 8 in my collection and access to a pattern 5, I am still looking to secure patterns 1,3, 6 and 7. However, finding these swords when you live in Australia is challenging.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

I’m not familiar with the Ehretsmann articles, and it seems many in the forum aren’t either, so perhaps you can be so kind and share them with the forum?

In The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (2012) the author Goran Borčić distinguishes between schiavonas with skeleton and lattice hilt baskets which makes sense. He mentions the oldest known record of the spada schiavonesca in a testament from Dubrovnik (Ragusa) dating from 1391.

Citing a number of sources including Marija Sercer (Macevi schiavone Povijesnog muzeja Hrvatske, 1972), A. Cimarelli (Armi Bianche, 1969), Heribert Seitz (1965), etc he provides approximate dating for schiavona swords. The earliest skeleton hilt swords are from 1H to mid 16thC, those with heartshaped sidebars dating from 1600-1640, and the ones with more decorated sidebars from 17th-18thC. The lattice hilt schiavonas date from as early as 2H 16thC with single layer side bar items from 1H 17thC (more decorative ones 17thC to beginning 18thC), double layer side bars from 17thC, and triple layer side bars versions from 17th-18thC. It seems schiavona swords continued in use by city guards on the Dalmatian coast into the 19thC. I think dating the swords is difficult in that they each seem quite unique (not standardised or regulation issue), and Ewart Oakeshott in his book European Weapons and Armour suggests different styles may have been in use concurrently.

[Victrix]

Found a link to the book by Marija Sercer but it’s in Serbo-Croat and not many pictures unfortunately: https://www.hismus.hr/media/documents/izdavastvo/ID-2-1976_Mačevi_bodeži_noževi.pdf Needs lots of use of Dr. “Google” translation to get much useful info out of it :( But the author seems to have been a scholarly lady, the more so given that the book was published during the communist time of Yugoslavia.

[Cathey]

Thankyou Victrix,

Here is the link to the Ehretsmann article, its in French so I have had to use Google translate which given this is an old photocopy is less than successful

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JfBMDzsJh6NwPlE7G5ffUt52rUSEUuQT/view?usp=share_link

Thankyou also for the link to the book by Marija Sercer, I think this will be most useful. I agree dating can only indicative as there does appear to be cross over between the variations and of course if we take blades into account, it becomes even more murky. Based on what I have found thus far I think the chart will be helpful if only as an order to address these in based on hilt complexity. I have Oakeshott as well which I do tend to rely on and a number of other references in other languages.

I am hoping some more recent papers might surface like the book by Marija that I have certainly never seen before. I think I prefer the term Lattice to fishnet when it comes to the latter hilts.

I just find the Schiavone so interesting because of the number of variations.


Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Many thanks for the link to the French article, Cathey. It looks very good.

I can recommend The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić which I picked up by chance when on vacation in Split. It has text on arms and armour in both Croatian and English, but the item descriptions at the end are in Croatian only although detailed with beautiful pictures. It also has sections on local yatagans, polearms, firearms, etc. See picture below for an example of a skeleton schiavona with decorated sidebars which he dates to 17-18thC. It seems the more plain the schiavonas the older they tend to be. The book is quite big and heavy so will cost a bit to send by post.

I wish all forum members a Happy New Year 2023! :)

[Cathey]

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

Hi Victrix

I have tried to find a copy of The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić , but it does not appear to be available anywhere. Would you be able to scan the pages relating to Schiavona’s for me?

I have also found some additional material by searching for the word Schiavona sword in Italian and French, and I am now able to start pulling my source material together.

I agree with your observations the more complex the hilt the newer the sword.

Attached is my oldest Schiavona which is has no lattice work and limited bars. I refer to this one as the second pattern and it dates from 1580 to around 1600.

Cheers Cathey

That’s a fabulous sword, Cathey! I think the plain iron pommels are also an indication of age. It seems the bronze ones with relief patterns and “cat’s ears” came later.

As I mentioned earlier, I obtained my copy of “The Collection of Arms of the Split City Museum” (Split City Museum, 2012) by Goran Borčić by chance when visiting the City of Split Museum on vacation (highly recommended!). Roman Emperor Diocletian retired to Split where he built a walled palace for himself. The old town of Split is built into the ruins of this palace and you can stay in hotels within the ancient palace walls. You could try to contact the museum to see if they still have copies of this publication for sale: https://www.mgs.hr/ and email muzej.grada.splita@mgst.net. Bear in mind that this is a substantial coffee table book and postage fees will likely be substantial. See some photos enclosed on the section covering schiavonas.

[urbanspaceman]

Probably my favourite sword and one I have yet to acquire.
Here are two examples purely for entertainment.
The first one (lattice basket) was auctioned by Czerny last year but was too expensive for my wallet.
The second one is still for sale but you would need to re-mortgage your house to afford it.

[urbanspaceman]

Here is a part of the vendor's description of this spectacular sword and some more photos.

The basket hilt is encrusted in silver, the massive pommel is also silver and decorated with a figure of a noble - perhaps the original owner that commissioned the creation of this masterpiece. The lower hilt is most interesting in that it has a silver guard and original rain-guard built into the tang. The sheath is decorated in leather and pierced silver moulding, and silver extended chape.

[urbanspaceman]

Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

[urbanspaceman]

Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread.
Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook.
Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm raising more questions I'm afraid.
First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel?
Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

[Cathey]

Hi Urbanspaceman

I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate.

With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips.

My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian.

Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte.

Cheers Cathey

[Victrix]

The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström.

[Cathey]

Hi Victrix

I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade.

Cheers Cathey

[urbanspaceman]

Take a careful look at this image below:
there is no pixelation on any of the hilt.
The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures.
I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees.

[urbanspaceman]

Judging by the basket style, this sword appears to qualify as the fifth issue 1640 - 1700.
Am I right in thinking this keeps it in the Solingen camp?
Is it possible that Solingen had access to sufficient wootz to make this blade?
Considering what a luxurious sword this is, it is not impossible wootz was acquired... perhaps demanded.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the only example I have of schiavona, which is interesting in reflecting the latter period of use of these distinctly hilted swords.
It is in the traditional lattice hilt with asymmetric styling, and the blade is what suggests possible cavalry use as it resembles dragoon blades of Spanish form in latter 18th c.

The inscribed lettering to Ferdinand IV of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies suggests to loyalists to him during Napoleons conquest of Naples in 1806, and after French Republicans had previously invaded Naples in 1799, with Ferdinand evacuated to Palermo.

The Two Sicilies are both Naples and Sicily which were collectively both deemed Sicily.
Ferdinand IV was son of Carlos III of Spain, and Carlos had built an arms factory in Naples at Annunziata in 1758 when he was king. In 1771 as king of Spain he built the arms factory in Toledo to try to retrieve Spains place in arms making. This may account for the blade similarity to cavalry backswords of the 18th century.

This is an amazing thread (thank you Cathey!) and great to have such a comprehensive look into these swords, and these outstanding examples posted.

I always have a piqued obsession with perhaps mundane factors, and wonder what the piercing in the upper quadrant of the pommels of these is for. It seems a repeated feature, and in cases, as seen, is not even completely through the pommel.

[urbanspaceman]

Ho Jim. Your hilt seems to be between the fifth and sixth pattern, but with the iron pommel.
My suggestion is that the wire-wound grip came with a re-blading of the hilt some fifty years into its life. Any thoughts?

[Cathey]

Hi Jim,

I think the hilt on yours is earlier what I describe as the Fifth pattern. Pommels are fascinating as the range of shape and style is unusual and they don’t appear tied to a particular period. I think the plainer iron pommels where simply a more economical fitting which might be why are seen on Schiavona’s from 1600 through to the end around 1790. As for the hole in the pommel, sometime a ring is fitted that attaches, yet sometimes not. In the case of latest Schiavona that dates around 1780 the hole does not actually go through at all.

Cheers Cathey

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith and Cathey!
Actually the grip was professionally redone about 25 years ago, but the entire sword is together as original. It seems quite possible that a traditional hilt, likely earlier was mounted with this blade in latter 18th c. Quite possibly the motto with Ferdinand IV was added in the period noted during Napoleonic events.

It does seem likely the hole was for a ring, which I can only imagine was for a sword knot of sorts, but the scanty detail in references on schiavona do not, as far as I know, mention this feature. There are many elements of minutiae with sword elements such as this which remain a mystery, for example notched blades and other.

[urbanspaceman]

Continuing on the subject of schiavona blades:
Jim suggested it unlikely the Europeans ever used wootz, but mentioned Bulat.
This made me return to a question I posed earlier, i.e. where did the schiavona blades come from? Are there any with smith markings?
Considering the history of the sword style, and its endurance through two hundred years with barely a significant change, it would seem that it could be Bavaria/Italy as well as Solingen... yes? Please correct my ignorance here if required.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the wootz phenomenon was much admired by Europeans, and through the 18th century there was a degree of study and attempt to reverse engineer this high carbon steel. I know so little on metallurgy that I can only recount historical record in noting that reasonable 'interpretations' of wootz were produced by 1790s early 1800s in England, but most impressive were the Russian versions known as 'bulat'. Unfortunately the scientist passed away before he published his work.

While more cannot be said briefly, despite some cases of wootz-like steel, it was not something widely nor certainly commercially known or used in Europe. Even in India and the Middle East, the art was lost, and trade blades became the norm.

The source of schiavona blades is a well placed question, and it appears that the early examples were of course from Italian centers, notably of course Belluno, and makers in those regions from Milan, Lucca and others.
Mostly there are 'guild' associated marks but not always identifiable to a certain maker. It seems the case where a makers name is on the blade would be most unusual.

By the 17th century, the south German makers as well as locations in Styria supplied blades used for mounting these type hilts in Italy. There are cases where Croatian or Slavic names have been found, but I believe on hilts.
As the term for 'schiavona' for these swords suggests, these were traditionally associated with Slavic troops guarding the Doges Palace in Venice thus the term that ended up being used. These were typically Dalmatian (Croatian).
These swords were used not only throughout other Italian locations but somewhat in other contexts where Italy had presence.

The 'kings head' on one schiavona blade (Wundes, 1580-1610 Solingen; unidentified mark on another, likely Italian and another 'marca di Mosca' noted from the centers situated in and around Belluno (of course the location of the fabled Andrea Ferara).

[Victrix]

Yes, I think Jim is absolutely right on the Schiavona blades.

I read somewhere that many skeleton hilt type schiavonas are found in the Armoury in Venice, but not the type with lattice hilt baskets which are mostly found in Dalmatia. Maybe the schiavonas started as skeleton hilts used by Slavonian mercenaries in Venice, who then continued the tradition in their homeland on the Eastern shore of the Adriatic which developed into lattice hilts over time with fashion? Allegedly schiavonas were also swirled around as part of a martial dance at festivals in Dalmatia, so very much became part of the local culture.

Some schiavonas were probably locally hilted in Dalmatia, and boats were known to travel up and down the coast selling trade blades for this purpose. I think schiavonas are found with blades from just about everywhere. What’s special about them is the hilt with the characteristic basket and pommel. And we mustn’t forget the thumb ring which is interesting as it made it an effective slashing as well as thrusting sword. They are very much meant for business.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems most I have ever read regarding evolution of the distinctive schiavona hilt suggests they evolved primarily from Hungarian/Croatian swords with the familiar S-guards seen in the landsknecht type 'katzbalgers' and other such fighting swords of 16th-17th c.

It is tempting to associate the 'cats head' pommel with the cat simile (=vicious fighting) of katzbalger, though clearly this is simply a suggestion.

The Hungarians, Croatians and Venice seem to have been aligned in diplomatic arrangements from the 16th c. onward, though I am unclear on these details.

The so called 'skeleton' type hilts which resemble rib cage I think were termed squelette in French and referred to rapiers with these complex hilts.
I have not seen the examples in Venice of these, but it seems they were well established as a rapier hilt form contemporary to the swept hilt.

It would seem that the lattice type hilt evolved much in the manner of the rapier hilt in Italy which simply added elements of bars and rings for hand protection, but seem to have evolved somewhat gradually. The Italian arms makers were known for innovation and very much set the pace for arms and armor in these periods.

I think such evolution of the schiavona hilt most likely evolved in Italian context with the Dalmatian swords having their innovation added from early times in 16th c. in accord with other Italian sword development.
The lattice style is unique, and it is hard to determine what influence might have promoted it.
The basket type hilts of forms of dusagge and such fighting swords of North Europe and Germany may well have influenced the hilt design.

It was once thought that the Scottish basket hilt developed from the influence of the schiavona, but these seem to have evolved from the same European developing of the baskets on these swords.
The schiavona seems to have been in its developed form by end of the 16th c.

[Victrix]

Thank you for that Jim. Interesting with some added depth to the origins of skeleton and lattice hilt baskets. I think the “cat’s head” pommel of the schiavona refers to the “ears” protruding from the upper corners of the pommel, rather than the katzbalger (“catbrawl”) swords of medieval times. This is believed to be a stylistic representation of the Lion of St.Mark which was the symbol of Venice (Lion is a large cat animal).

[Victrix]

With regards to the little hole in the upper quadrant of the pommel in some schiavonas mentioned by Jim, it seems to have been used to tie the tip of the end of the basket hilt to the pommel with some wire. I believe Ewart Oakeshott mentions in his books that he believes the holes were later additions by Victorian collectors. But in the case of Jim’s schiavona the hole in the pommel looks very old and has the same patina as the rest so looks original or at least period. I suggest the basket hilt was attached to the pommel to give extra strength and keep it straight. In a melee it might be tempting to use the basket hilt opportunistically as a knuckleduster which could cause the basket hilt to twist/rotate around the axis and eventually break. Tying it to the pommel would give some extra strength by making it less likely to twist and break.

[Jim McDougall]

With regards to the little hole in the upper quadrant of the pommel in some schiavonas mentioned by Jim, it seems to have been used to tie the tip of the end of the basket hilt to the pommel with some wire. I believe Ewart Oakeshott mentions in his books that he believes the holes were later additions by Victorian collectors. But in the case of Jim’s schiavona the hole in the pommel looks very old and has the same patina as the rest so looks original or at least period. I suggest the basket hilt was attached to the pommel to give extra strength and keep it straight. In a melee it might be tempting to use the basket hilt opportunistically as a knuckleduster which could cause the basket hilt to twist/rotate around the axis and eventually break. Tying it to the pommel would give some extra strength by making it less likely to twist and break.


Victrix thank you for these insightful entries! That is interesting about what Oakeshott said, do you recall which of his books this was in? He was always so informative in these kinds of minutiae which are seldom if ever noted in the other references.
I would never have imagined that kind of support use, almost a hilt 'lanyard'.
The use of the hilt in a 'knuckle duster' manner had not occurred to me, but makes sense in close quarter entanglement.

I am curious about why Victorians would add this hole, surely to add authenticity to represent this curious old tradition. This seems to fall into the category that has haunted me for years, the notched blade tips on 18th c Austrian swords.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture.

I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted and available:

AKEHURST, Richard Antique Weapons - for Pleasure and Investment Pp 8,
ALEKSIC Marko Mediaeval Swords from South-eastern Europe Pp 7, 9, 20-22, 98, 192-194
Article: A Venetian excellence: the Schiavona
BECK Carl Waffensammlung Schiavona, Italian/Venetian, 2nd Half Of The 18th Century
BINK Jean The Schiavona
BLAIR, Claude The James A. De Rothschild Collection At Waddesdon Manor - Arms, Armour and Base-Metalwork Pp 78, 79, 80,
BLAIR-C-European & American Arms c1100-1850 Pp 3, 10, 16, 52, 84, Plate 176, 219 Schiavona Dagger
BOCCIA L.G., COELHO E.T., EDITRICE B. Armi Bianche Italiane Pp 23, Plates 765 – 770, Pp 386-387, 421-422
Boris V Schiavona – the sword of warrior Slovenes
Bozzolan Millo The Schiavona Sword, A Balkan Weapon, But Probably Born In Belluno
Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima
DEMMIN Auguste An Illustrated History of Arms & Armour Pp 379, 388, 432, 564
DUFTY Arthur Richard European Swords and Daggers in the Tower of London pp 23, 34, Plate 44-45
Ehretsmann Martin The Skeleton Guard & the Fishnet Guard
FFOULKES C J The Armouries of the Tower of London Vol 2Pp 287, 288
FFOULKES Charles Armour & Weapons Pp 101, 102
FFOULKES Charles European Arms and Armour in the University of Oxford Pp 34, 35
FLIEGEL, Stephen N. ARMS AND ARMOR THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM OF ART Pp 116, 168, 169, 178
FORD-Roger-weapon a visual history of arms and armor Pp 106
FORRER R European Sword Pommels Pp 38
GARCIA Andrew F The Collector' Course on Medieval Arms & Armour Pp 33, 261, 243, 264, 265, 266, 269, 298-299, 309, 343, 331,
HELD Robert Art, Arms and Armour An International Anthology Pp 59, 64, 71
HUTTON, Alfred, F.S.A. The Sword and the Centuries Plate 288,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 1 Fig 232, Pp IX, XXIV, 193
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 2 302,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 4 Pp 325 - 328,
LAKING Sir Guy Francis A Record of European Armour & Arms Vol 5 Pp 318, 322, 342, 345, 370
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd Pp 66, 67, Plate 181-183, Pp 384, 432, 440
MÜLLER, Heinrich, HARTMUT Kölling & PLATOW Gerd MÜLLER 66, 384, 432
Overseas Regiment (Schiavoni)
NORDSTROM Lena White Arms of the Royal Armoury Pp 322
OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191
PIREK, Michal Schiavonas: Venetian swords in Bratislava castle's collection
PUYPE J.P. WIEKART A.A. Van Maurits naar munster Pp 96
PUYPE Jan Piet The Visser Collection Volume 1 Part 3 Pp 130, 132,
Robinson Nathan Spotlight: The Schiavona and its Influences
SACH, Jan & KRAUS,Valtr Illustriertes Lexikon der Hieb- und Stichwaffen Schiavona 72/75, 116-119/138-142, 253
SEITZ Heribert - Blankwaffen 1 schiavoni 170, 171
SEITZ Heribert – Blankwaffen 2 schiavona 32, 108, 113, 117, 122- 126
SERCER Marija Shiavona references
Shiavona Ross Arms
SOUTHWICK Leslie The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 25, 152 Schiavona, 269, 271, 34, 415-418 Schiavoni, 271, 34
STONE-G-C-Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms & Armour Pp 181, 544, 595,
TARASSUK Leonid & BLAIR Claude The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms & Weapons Pp 416
The Perfect Sword Slave
The Schiavona Sword-A 17th century Croatian Masterpiece
Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki
WAGNER Eduard Cut and Thrust Weapons Pp 29, 99, 172, 173
WAGNER, Eduard SWORDS AND DAGGERS Hamlyn Pp 35, 75,
WILKINSON Frederick Swords & Daggers Schiavona pp 24; 78, 79
WILKINSON-LATHAM R.J. Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets Pp 8, 39
WILKINSON-LATHAM Robert Swords in Colour Including other Edged Weapons Pp Schiavona, 19, 25, 26.
WITHERS Harvey J S The World Encyclopedia of Swords and Sabres Pp 48, 167, 169, 246, 249, 250
WITHERS, Harvey J.S. World Swords 1400 – 1945 Pp 27, 28, 29,

I was wondering if anyone either has or can recommend some additional references I might consult.

The plan at this stage is to focus mostly on the hilt construction and pommel variations. As with Scottish Basket Hilts, blades are not much use for dating purposes as they were often imported or family blades reused.

Cheers Cathey

[cornelistromp]

Hi Cathey,

yes : Ubojite Ostrice

best regards
Jasper

[Cathey]

Hi Jasper,

I havn't been able to locate a copy of this book for sale. Would you be able to scan the pages for me that relate to Schiavona's or photograph them as flat as possible so I can convert to PDF and translate them.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers Cathey

[Cathey]

Hi Guys,

I have just reread Oakeshott and thing his reference to the hole in the pommel has been misunderstood. He dose suggest that what ever fixed the hilt to the pommel via this hole is often replaced.

This is what he actually says in OAKESHOTT, Ewart European Weapons and Armour Plate 15 Pp 182-191

“In a few cases, there is a small hole pierced in the upper dexter part of the pommel, to which the little curl at the top of the knuckle-guard element of the basket is fastened. Surviving examples, if they are fastened at all, have a little piece of wire to do the job; these are mostly modern replacements, but there can be little doubt that in their original state, wire was used.”

Cheer Cathey

[Victrix]

Victrix thank you for these insightful entries! That is interesting about what Oakeshott said, do you recall which of his books this was in? He was always so informative in these kinds of minutiae which are seldom if ever noted in the other references.
I would never have imagined that kind of support use, almost a hilt 'lanyard'.
The use of the hilt in a 'knuckle duster' manner had not occurred to me, but makes sense in close quarter entanglement.

I am curious about why Victorians would add this hole, surely to add authenticity to represent this curious old tradition. This seems to fall into the category that has haunted me for years, the notched blade tips on 18th c Austrian swords.

Jim, I believe it would be unlikely that Victorian collectors drilled holes in the Schiavona pommels to tie with the basket hilt, as I see no practical purpose for this. I can’t find the source where I read this weak theory. I thought it was Ewart Oakeshott’s “European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution“ but although he mentions the holes he does not suggest what their purpose was. I have looked through my books in vain but haven’t been able to find where I read this. Anyway the hole in your schiavona’s pommel looks quite old which would disprove allegations that Victorian collectors drilled the holes.

Another suggestion has been that the hole was used to secure a string to tie around the wrist like a lanyard, but the holes seem too small in diameter for this purpose and there are so many other places on the hilt where a lanyard could be secured.

When holding my lattice basket hilt Schiavona the entire hand is enclosed behind steel bars and if pinned against an opponent it would be natural to use the hilt to strike if very close. The problem is that the basket hilt is secured to the sword only at the cross so there would be risk that the basket hilt got twisted in which case it would be damaged/weakened. Especially if the basket hilt was struck against hard objects like a breastplate, chainmail or a helmet. Securing the tip of the basket hilt to the pommel would keep the former straight and add some strength to the structure (assuming the wire is strong enough). This is just a theory. Otherwise it’s difficult to imagine what the purpose for the hole in the pommel would be. :shrug:

[Victrix]

Hi Guys, and thankyou Victrix for that great picture.

I have now started working on an extensive article on the Schiavona for the Heritage Arms Magazine Barrels and Blades. At present I have the following references noted…

Cathey that’s an impressive bibliography you have compiled.

I believe the men in the picture are supposed to be so-called Uskoks. You can read about them here (fascinating read!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoks

There seem to be some translation errors in your list of bibliography translating Slav into slave (fast Google error?). I propose replacing slave with Slavic or Slavonian. I understand the word is related to “slovo” which is Slavic for “word” (i.e. share the same language). Hence Slovenia, Slovakia, Slavonia, etc.

Boz Milo A Slave Sword For The Serenissima
The Perfect Sword Slave
Veneto History The Slave Sword, Everything You Don't Find In Wiki

[Oliver Pinchot]

The guard, at least, of the silver-mounted schiavona shown in #13 above, can be identified as Boka Kotorska work from Crna Gora (Montenegro.) Compare the silver-inlaid motifs and technique with that on the barrel of a type of musket, the Dzeferdar, likewise produced there:

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey,
This thread is such a great reference resource, and I wanted to add some of the notes I had in my files ( my apologies for the haphazard character ). While far from the standard of the research you and Rex maintain, I hope perhaps there might be bits and references which might be useful.

In the reference from Konipsky and Moudry, on Hapsburg swords, note the KOSARICE pommel, which is an unusual exception to the distinctive 'cats head' pommels on the schiavona.

Despite the way it looks, there is a modicum of organization in the corpus of notes and files of MANY years of eclectic research, and adventure :)

Best regards
Jim

[Triarii]

This is mine. Needs a bit of a clean up. No markings on the blade, which is 38" long. Surprisingly handy for such a hefty weapon if you finger the blade at the ricasso.

[Cathey]

Thankyou Jim for those notes most helpful, and thankyou Triarii for sharing your example.

At this stage my article is in its infancy, and I have started by comparing and tracking pommels. Attached is what I have found so far having examined 132 examples. I have only illustrated individual examples of different styles, not all 132. What I have found thus far is that brass decorated pommel first appeared on examples dating after 1600, and only become more common in the late 17th to early 18th centuries. The plain functional iron pommel with a simple circular protrusion appears to have continued in use for the life of the Schiavona pattern. Perhaps the Iron pommel can be associated with soldiers rather than officers, which would account for the number of them appearing in comparison to the more decorative brass versions.

Cheers Cathey

[fernando]

Hello Cathey. In case you wish to have a look to my ex- "PROTO" (https://id33158.securedata.net/svaerd/vb/showthread.php?t=14254&highlight=schiavona) Schiavona variant ...

[Triarii]

Jim, I believe it would be unlikely that Victorian collectors drilled holes in the Schiavona pommels to tie with the basket hilt, as I see no practical purpose for this. I can’t find the source where I read this weak theory. I thought it was Ewart Oakeshott’s “European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution“ but although he mentions the holes he does not suggest what their purpose was. I have looked through my books in vain but haven’t been able to find where I read this. Anyway the hole in your schiavona’s pommel looks quite old which would disprove allegations that Victorian collectors drilled the holes.

Another suggestion has been that the hole was used to secure a string to tie around the wrist like a lanyard, but the holes seem too small in diameter for this purpose and there are so many other places on the hilt where a lanyard could be secured.

When holding my lattice basket hilt Schiavona the entire hand is enclosed behind steel bars and if pinned against an opponent it would be natural to use the hilt to strike if very close. The problem is that the basket hilt is secured to the sword only at the cross so there would be risk that the basket hilt got twisted in which case it would be damaged/weakened. Especially if the basket hilt was struck against hard objects like a breastplate, chainmail or a helmet. Securing the tip of the basket hilt to the pommel would keep the former straight and add some strength to the structure (assuming the wire is strong enough). This is just a theory. Otherwise it’s difficult to imagine what the purpose for the hole in the pommel would be. :shrug:

From the number of basket hilted swords I've seen where the guard bars aren't connected to the pommel (they just touch or sit in a shallow groove) and they have become displaced, either to one side or more often pushed downwards below the pommel, I think you're right. From practical experience with decent reenactment hilted swords, other battle and non-battle damage is just as likely.
As to a sword knot, I think it is too small and unlikely, though some contemporary accounts like Vernon's 'Young Horseman' (1644) do refer to a 'riband or the like' or 'a string' for this purpose.

[SwordLover79]

I picked up this sword at an auction over the weekend. It was described as a Southern German or Austrian (or Styrian) baskethilt broadsword. Looks somewhat like a schiavona to me...

[SwordLover79]

I have received a number of messages regarding this sword. The doubled-edged blade has a long central fuller and is 42" and the overall length of the sword is 48 inches. There are a number of characters inside the fullers on both sides that are tough to make out. I attached a rough rendering of the symbol on both sides of the blade and two more pix. Sure would like to know who made it!

[cornelistromp]

as sent to you by pm, this type is frequently found in the Dutch soil, and can be dated in the last quarter of the 16th century. see excavated basket hilts and such a sword from the Visser collection, sold by Bonhams in 2007.

In the fuller is written IN VALENCIA, same as a Dutch example of a basket hilt sword in my collection. Unfortunately it is not possible to say who made it.

see all pics attached.

best,
Jasper

[SwordLover79]

This information and photos are very helpful - Thanks!!! I wonder if the image I attached of the armorers mark that looks like and eye with three crosses on either side may help identify the maker?

[SwordLover79]

Thanks Jasper - Very helpful!

[werecow]

The schiavona is nr 1 on my list of swords to pursue, so this thread is incredibly helpful, thanks for sharing all this research!

EDIT: This thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27817&highlight=schiavona) (about my own personal favorite example) is worth checking out as it has some gorgeous examples. If I can one day find one similar to that one it would be the centerpiece of my collection perhaps for the rest of my life. The collection of the guy who bought it is impressive, to say the least:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=217732&stc=1&d=1655557469

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=217731&stc=1&d=1655557469

Still bummed. }|:oP

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

My article for the Heritage Arms Society is getting closer to being completed; however, it has now expanded to over 17 pages and growing rapidly. I have found 135 examples including a number or strange variations, plus 4 Schiavone’s locally to examine, one with its original scabbard. Fernado’s proto example and those that have also now surfaced will need to be treated as variations I think rather than entirely new categories. I have come across some papers by Gianrodolfo Rotasso that have proved very enlightening. He has made a reference “the wonderful cage which in the following centuries will develop into various types, it is in fact due to the great master Andrea Ferrara”. However he does not go on to elaborate as to why he has credited Andrea Ferrara with the development of this hilt. Perhaps he has covered this in a publication I am yet to track down.

I am now in the process of re-reading my reference material to draw some conclusions and try and fit them into the paper in a way that makes sense, this is proving challenging.

If anyone has any additional material regarding the Schiavona written by Gianrodolfo Rotasso I would greatly appreciate access to a copy.

At present my paper is structured as follows:
Schiavonesca and the Emergence of the Cats Head Pommel
The Schiavona (also referred to as Schiavone, Schiavoni or Stratiotenschwert by some German authors)
Manufacturing centre Belluno Italy
Two categories of Schiavona
My approach to Guard development and dating
The Leather Hat
The Scabbard
The impact of the 30-year war
Schiavona Sword Blades
Schiavona Pommel Design Variety
Proto Schiavona’s?
The Skeleton Guard
The Fishnet (or Trellis) Guard
The Schiavona Rapier
Variations
Conclusion.

Cheers Cathey

[Reventlov]

My article for the Heritage Arms Society is getting closer to being completed...
I wish you luck with the writing, I have been fortunately able to publish a few pieces and know how difficult it can be!

I hadn't heard of Gianrodolfo Rotasso's work before, or this claim about Andrea Ferrara, but found it mentioned here (https://www.bellunopress.it/2009/08/16/le-schiavone-bellunesi-per-la-repubblica-di-venezia/):

Il più noto tra i maestri spadari è però il già citato Andrea Ferara da Fonzaso, attivo nella seconda metà del Cinquecento. Le sue spade con l’elegantissimo fornimento “a tre vie” fecero epoca e da questo fornimento Ferara elaborò anche la gabbia del primo tipo di Schiavona.

Do you have a copy of Lionello Boccia's article entitled "Les épées des Esclavons: entre Venise et Illyrie", in Genava 43 (1995)?

Best,
Mark

[Cathey]

Hi Mark

I have a large book by Lionello Boccia but not the article you mentioned. I don’t suppose you have a copy you could send me? I would be happy to share my article with you when it is finally finished.

Cheers Cathey

[Reventlov]

I have read it but do not have a copy, unfortunately. I found it in one of the university libraries in my region. I'll scan it for you at my next opportunity, but this could be a few months... I don't know if that will be quick enough for your timeline.

[urbanspaceman]

I came across this rather ugly (IMHO) example and felt I should draw it to your attention in case it was of interest. It is currently up for auction.
This is the description translated roughly from German:
Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

[Cathey]

Hi Mark, thanks for your offer, I don't mind how long it takes as I have not been able to track down a copy.

Cheers Cathey

[Interested Party]

Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

Does the first picture show a pommel with a hole to receive a knuckle bow? If so, a composite piece?

[Cathey]

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

[urbanspaceman]

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

A composite piece... yes. It is certainly a mess, but would still work.

[Interested Party]

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

[urbanspaceman]

Keith, the length of the handle appears to be longer than average. The blade seems slender. Which to me gives the impression that this was a stabbing weapon. A long time ago I remember reading that these were primarily thrusting weapons but looking at all the examples of blades on this thread and on the forum, it seems that there were possibly several schools of thought associated with this hilt.

Cathy, these may be questions bordering on my being simple minded, did the average length of the handle change over time? Did the balance of the blade shift as well? Am I correct in thinking that many of these were cut and thrust weapons? In your research for the article did you find that they became more thrust orientated as the hilt became more intricate? Or did they continue to be manufactured for a diversity of fencing styles?

Interesting, isn't it?
Personal inclination is towards wide broadsword blades with chopping in mind. The length and strength helped when dealing with a typical munition's grade rapier.
I can understand why the Border Reivers coveted them.
I too think they are the most desirable of all swords and I am very keen to acquire one.

[Cathey]

Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts.

However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso.

Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective.

Cheers Cathey.

[Cathey]

I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia.

Cheers Cathey

[urbanspaceman]

Here's another one on this luxurious sword.
It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion.
Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif
BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least.
ps
I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

Here's another picture of it that reinforces my suggestion it is an aftermarket addition; and a poor - sorry - picture of the entire sword and scabbard that further suggests it's an add-on.

[werecow]

Those are also pictures from Andrew Garcia's site. He's selling the sword there (EDIT: I thought it was the same sword initially but they're clearly not the same). So I guess the only two instances of this that we have so far are from his site and book.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

[werecow]

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

As far as I can see from the pictures, the cap runs up to the lower edge of the actual rain guard that is built into the grip, so I don't think it's actually intended to be a rain guard, but rather a guard plate to protect the fingers by closing the largish opening at the bottom of the guard. The diagram from his site calls it a "massive silver guard". You can make out the opening of the rain guard inside the opening in the guard plate in the picture below.

It looks like the scabbard on the one from Andrew Garcia's website has some chafe marks on it and I'm guessing that's how far the scabbard went into the (actual) rain guard (presumably the top of the scabbard is intended to fit into that?), in which case the metal plate would not funnel water into the scabbard but only towards the outside of it. But I'm just speculating here.

[urbanspaceman]

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

[werecow]

Further speculation:
looking at the measurements, I don't think the scabbard ever went that far into a rain-guard; I think the chafing is a result of a locket... removed when this plate was added.
Whadayathink?

I guess it's possible... But just from looking (with my admittedly somewhat untrained eyes) at how the leather looks near the chape, I would think it'd be more damaged, and the rain guard seems historic so you'd think it'd fit over the scabbard at least to some extent because that's kind of the point of having a rain guard...
And furthermore, my question would be why? Why remove an antique locket and then drill holes through a nice looking guard on a super expensive sword to add a guard plate that is anomalous for the type?
But people do weird things sometimes I suppose.

EDIT: As an aside, I found another (https://data.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/id/object/19123) example with a rain guard (though it's hard to see) and it also does not have a locket on the scabbard. Pictures added (more at the link).

EDIT: Argh why is this image upload thing so fickle? Trying to upload a better version of the full sized image but it seems to just be loading the older version. :mad:

[urbanspaceman]

I suspect you are right; on reflection, the missing locket idea probably does not hold up.

[Jim McDougall]

This is the first time I have seen this term used for many years, and I knew I had found some curious reference to this many years ago. Unfortunately while I kept images of a leather example of one of these, I did not note the source.

With the metal shield screwed to the bottom of the trellis on the schiavona noted, it does not seem that purpose would be likely, but more in the type of pragmatic lore of the guardapolvo (dust guard) on cup hilt rapiers.

Attached is the admittedly vague reference from one of my very old notebooks, just for comparison.

[werecow]

Just noticed that this (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=142859#post142859) schiavona also has a guard plate.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

[werecow]

Hi Fernando. Do you know why my PM to Cathey was not sent?

Are you sure it wasn't sent? I tried PM-ing Cathey a week or so ago but did not get a response either. I just assumed it went unnoticed.

Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th.

EDIT: This (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=282499&postcount=2) might explain the issue with unnoticed PMs.

[urbanspaceman]

I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow.
I'm not certain what, precisely, defines forbidden in regard to auctions. I assumed as no auction house name was mentioned it was ok but I will certainly bow to contradictions.

[fernando]

... Also, as much as I'm interested in discussing it as it is the first flamberge schiavona I've come across, please note that the sword above is still in auction until the 16th...
Noted ... and deleted. Thanks for the warning.

[fernando]

Rules Applying to the Discussion Fora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi & European Armoury) Specifically
1. Discussion of items currently in the process of being offered for sale, especially active auctions, is strictly prohibited. This prohibition also includes posting of links or other identifying clues (such as auction numbers) and calling attention that a previously discussed item is now for sale.

[urbanspaceman]

Mea Culpa

[werecow]

I looked in my 'SENT' folder and it was not there. Did you check yours Werecow.

Yeah, it is in my "sent" folder so I guess something else is going on with your case.

[fernando]

Mea Culpa

:cool:.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

The article on the Schiavona is finally complete and will be published in the June Edition of the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades. My apologies to anyone I have been slow to respond to via PM, I supposedly work part time but it has been a little crazy lately.

I really do appreciate all of the assistance fellow members have provided and if you would like a compliementary copy of the finished paper please email me at heritage.arms.society@gmail.com

Cheers Cathey

[Reventlov]

Congratulations! Sorry I was not able to get ahold of that article for you in time.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Today I have sent out a number of complimentary copies of the June Edition of the Heritage Arms Society Magazine Barrels and Blades containing the Schiavona artilce.

As I have said I do appreciate all of the assistance fellow members have provided and if you have not received a copy already and would like one please email me at heritage.arms.society@gmail.com

Cheers Cathey

[fernando]

Great work indeed, Cathey; congratulations.
And thank you so much for a copy of the article.

[Triarii]

I've just been to the frustratingly chaotic, badly lit and unlabelled Stibbert Museum in Florence. I videoed and photographed the Schiavona rack there - about 25 or so of them, including a slightly unusual hilt. If Cathey wants a copy and any of the photos and the vid I can send them. Photos of the unusual one attached.

PS it is well worth visiting. There's a case of 180 rapiers alone.

[werecow]

Nice one! Do you have any pictures showing the full sword including the blade?

[Triarii]

Here you go.

That's it in the centre. Most of the swords weren't in cases.

Simon

[Triarii]

Here it is. Top row, seventh along.

[werecow]

*drool*

[Victrix]

Hi I just wanted to share some contemporary Schiavona art that I stumbled across with you. The first painting “Soldiers playing cards” (1730-1740s) by Giacomo Ceruti. The second painting is “Il vecchio schiavone” (1700) by Nicolò Cassana in Pinacoteca Nazionale di Bologna. These swords were used by Slavonic mercenaries in the employ of the Venetian Republic. The caps and capes worn by the figures is typical of those soldiers.