A naginata ... real or fake.

[fernando]

Gentlemen, i am desperatly needing help on this one !
I felt tempted for this piece, without having absolutey no idea how to check these things genuinity. I have just disassembled the blade and i see inscriptions that could (could) be a good sign. I still have to spend some time to examine the whole piece integrity; some parts are a bit 'tired'. But before that, i would like so much to know whereas this is a real naginata or a worthless dud.
Any help will be appreciated,


-

[Rich]

Fernando

Form looks legit. Can't read signature (posted upside down). In terrible shape. Can tell nothing of hamon nor hada. Would cost in four figures to properly restore (not a DIY project). Better be real inexpensive IMHO.

[pbleed]

This is certainly a "real: naginata. It certainly dates from the Shinto- era - about 1700, I'd say, but I certainly can't read the signature - too rusty. We foreigners think nagtnata a complex, interesting, and graceful. Japanese collectors see them as "odd" and in Japan that is never good. This is not a good "investment" IMHO.
Peter

[colin henshaw]

Looks a genuine old naginata. Personally, I like to see such good old, honest signs of age and wear. Not so keen on the woodworm holes though. But, judging Japanese arms and armour is a very different thing compared to ethnographic/tribal.

I understand that naginata were particularly favoured as weapons by female samurai ?

[CutlassCollector]

I would agree, it looks good and also not so far gone that it cannot be re-polished, but as Rich says, that is expensive but costed per inch of blade so less for a naginata than a long sword!

Unlike most other collectors, who tend to preserve the sword as it is, those who favour Japanese swords prefer them shiny to show off the grain and the hamon.

Naginata were used extensively by samurai warriors, by foot soldiers in battle and by samurai wives I think mostly as home defence.

The characters look much more than a signature and may well include a date or the place it was made. Dates are usually in a form relating to the year of the then emperor's reign.

Go for it!!

[Ren Ren]

Unfortunately, I can't translate the signature, but I really liked the calligraphy. Beautiful, strong, confident handwriting!

[fernando]

Gentlemen, i am amazed with the excelent support given so far, for which i am so much obliged. It is visible that i am no Nihonto connoisseur, or i would never 'invest' in an example in such poor condition, thus having no chance to recuperate its original splendor. Still i am pleased to have gone for it, and so happy that it is the real thing, which was after all my actual concern.
So i assume that, having no risk to further damage its collectable charm, i will deal with it as i deal with 'normal Western' swords, that is, eliminate the active rust with the minimum abrazion possible and one or two touch ups on the pole.
Meanwile i would like to show what has been done on the blade, and will also post new photos of the characters, testing different lights and positions, with hopes that they are now (more) readable, which possible success would be of a great added valuable for me.
Again my appologies to those who collect this type of weaponry, hoping they will be tolerant to my crime.


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[Interested Party]

Interesting find Fernando. What is the overall length?

For my own edification. In a piece like this with evidence of an insect infestation does the piece need to be treated to prevent the risk of the infestation spreading to other items it is stored with?

[Tim Simmons]

I think that is a super thing to have. Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .

[fernando]

Interesting find Fernando. What is the overall length?

For my own edification. In a piece like this with evidence of an insect infestation does the piece need to be treated to prevent the risk of the infestation spreading to other items it is stored with?
The whole thing measures 2,5 meters ... assuming one part originaly belonged to the other. The pole weighs 1.164 grams and the blade 512 grams. It won't be stored, but exposed somewhere i didn't yet decide. How would you eliminate the woodworm ? Funy thing; if i bump the floor cap down nothing happens, but if i hit it blade down a lot of dust comes out the holes. Could these worms be dead by now ?

[fernando]

I think that is a super thing to have. Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .
:cool:.

[ariel]

That is exactly the reason I do not collect Nihonto: it is supposed to be either perfect or it is junk

[Klop]

my 2 cents; the tang (nakago) seems to be shortened, ending square and I would expect it to be about the same length as the blade part. At the japanese sword forum Nihonto Message Board they have a translation help section, advice would be to post it there. Signatures often follow patterns, in this case possibly: Provence name -honorary title- smith name-"made by". Please let us know what it turns out to be :)

Oh, and maybe redundant; don't clean/sand/polish/whatever the nakago. Color and filemarks are indicators of age.

Kind regards,
Eric

[fernando]

Thank you Eric; will do. Someone is already helping me establish such contact.
And by the way; about the shortened tang:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/naginata.html

[asomotif]

How would you eliminate the woodworm ? Funy thing; if i bump the floor cap down nothing happens, but if i hit it blade down a lot of dust comes out the holes. Could these worms be dead by now ?

Hi Fernando,

Nice naginata. I have no problem with the condition of this naginata showing its age.
As for the wormholes, as soon as you see holes, the worms turned into bugs and left the wood to find mates to reproduce.
techincally they can lay eggs in the same wood again, but not likely.
Probably you can buy some poison in a drugstore. Also the worms dont like petrol and ammonia.
But be carefull with the lacquer I have no idea how that reacts on chemicals.

Sometimes I see wakizashi made from Naginata blades. they are reaaly cool :)

Best regards,
Willem

[kronckew]

... Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .


:confused:? - I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin.


Naginata are cool. Wish I could afford one.


Re:tang - is the corresponding socket deeper than the tang length? Longer ones I think had two holes for the bamboo pins, does the haft have two? if broken, the missing bit may be still in there somewhere. It may even have been rehafted after breaking & the tang may fit accordingly. (I only see one hole for the meguki pin in the rayskin section.)

[CutlassCollector]

My interest in Japanese arms faded some time ago but I retained some items including this naginata.

I post it here as it is a similar shape to Fernando's but it is of much poorer quality and I have doubted it's authenticity because of that. There is no signature on the tang but good file marks and a punched hole. The pole is missing some fittings. Perhaps it was mass produced for a foot soldier rather than a superior signed blade fit for a samurai.

It has also lost some red lacquer from the fuller which does not help the look. I decided give it the benefit of the doubt and kept it with no intention of making it shiny - just preserved.

CC

[Ren Ren]

I post it here as it is a similar shape to Fernando's but it is of much poorer quality and I have doubted it's authenticity because of that.
CC
Your item could very well be an imitation made in Siam or Vietnam. Then this is a significantly rarer thing than the original Japanese one. The first difference between objects from Indochina is the round section of the pole (in Japan, the section is usually oval). The second difference is the shorter tang. Philip wrote about it on the forum. I well remember that he noted that in Indochina they used natural resins for additional fastening and therefore there was no need to make long tang. There are other differences, but they relate to the details of the decor.

[asomotif]

:confused:? - I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin.
)

I am quite sure that this is mother of pearl lacquer.

[fernando]

I am quite sure that this is mother of pearl lacquer.
Yes, of course.

[fernando]

... I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin...
Mother of pearl, as already confirmed.

...Naginata are cool. Wish I could afford one ...
Mine wasn't expensive; obviously due to its condition.

...Re:tang - is the corresponding socket deeper than the tang length? Longer ones I think had two holes for the bamboo pins, does the haft have two? if broken, the missing bit may be still in there somewhere. It may even have been rehafted after breaking & the tang may fit accordingly. (I only see one hole for the meguki pin in the rayskin section.)
After disassembling it and before mounting it back, i had a good look and must conclude that the blade and the haft were not made for each other. Some story i can't figure out. The mekugi hole does not coincide with the hole on the blade ... by over an inch.The blade has not been broken but cut off; maybe for the version to adapt it to a wakizashi, as already approached ... i wouldn't know.

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[pbleed]

Unless I missed it, no one has translated the signature of this blade. With the clearer image that is possible. And it let's me correct my earlier assessment.
This blade is signed Nanto ju Kanebo Masatsugu. (MAS1654)
He was a smith who made polearms in the Yamato district (call it Nara) in the early 1500's
I had assumed that it was later than that. and naginata that date before 1600 are both RARE and GOOD.
This blade would certainly warrent a polish.
Peter Bleed

[fernando]

Fantastic Peter !
Thank you ever so much :cool:.

[ariel]

What is " mother of pearl" lacquer?
Never heard of it. Can somebody explain?
Thanks.

[fernando]

What is " mother of pearl" lacquer?
Never heard of it. Can somebody explain?
Thanks.
Forget the "lacquer"; call it "inlay" ;).

[colin henshaw]

Looks like you did well there, Fernando. Congratulations !

[fernando]

Thank you Colin :cool:.

[fernando]

... Probably you can buy some poison in a drugstore. Also the worms dont like petrol and ammonia.
But be carefull with the lacquer I have no idea how that reacts on chemicals ...
Thank you Willem. I went for ammonia; bought a bottle of it in the drugstore. I keep syringes and needles since my paramedic service in the Army. One of these days i will give it a try; starting by the bottom, to check if the liquid stains the wood.

[Battara]

That is exactly the reason I do not collect Nihonto: it is supposed to be either perfect or it is junk

I'll make a small correction to this statement: if the blade is very old, like Koto (500+ years old) or so, then some flaws are in fact expected and do not detract horribly to the value. Old blades like this may have some kizu or blisters, but where they are on the blade and how they are positioned will determine value. On later pieces, Ariel is correct - perfection is preferred if not expected.

(Sorry Ariel for the accidental editing - wrong button :o)

[Victrix]

Thank you Willem. I went for ammonia; bought a bottle of it in the drugstore. I keep syringes and needles since my paramedic service in the Army. One of these days i will give it a try; starting by the bottom, to check if the liquid stains the wood.

Freezing is an efficient way of getting rid of wood worm and possible eggs. I guess the sword is too big to fit in a freezer? I have a French Napoleonic sabre AN XI legere with woodworm holes in the grip. I simply waited until winter and left it on the balcony for a couple of days in sub-zero Celsius temperatures to kill any remaining worms or eggs. Guess in Portugal you don’t have that luxury?:o

[Interested Party]

Freezing is an efficient way of getting rid of wood worm and possible eggs. I guess the sword is too big to fit in a freezer? I have a French Napoleonic sabre AN XI legere with woodworm holes in the grip. I simply waited until winter and left it on the balcony for a couple of days in sub-zero Celsius temperatures to kill any remaining worms or eggs. Guess in Portugal you don’t have that luxury?:o

That is great advice. Do you think it need to be -20 C or more?

[fernando]

Freezing is an efficient way of getting rid of wood worm and possible eggs. I guess the sword is too big to fit in a freezer? I have a French Napoleonic sabre AN XI legere with woodworm holes in the grip. I simply waited until winter and left it on the balcony for a couple of days in sub-zero Celsius temperatures to kill any remaining worms or eggs. Guess in Portugal you don’t have that luxury?:o
The lowest i can get in my balcony is a tropical -1º ... in two or three occasions per year :eek:.

[Victrix]

That is great advice. Do you think it need to be -20 C or more?

https://southwestmuseums.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Collections-Woodworm-treatment.pdf

[fernando]

... perfection is preferred if not expected...

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me :cool: .


.

[CutlassCollector]

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me :cool: .
.

And no doubt it is a great find Fernando and a worthy addition to your collection preserved as it is.

Good finds and history is what makes collecting so interesting.

It could well have been brought back with the early explorers but I have another theory that occurs to me because the blade is in such good condition for a 500 year old sword - compare it with western blades of the same age, that have not spent life in a museum.
It suggests, perhaps, that it was treasured and cared for by a samurai family for generations and only in the last few decades has it been left to rust.
We know the samurai did not just disappear but became the officer class in army, navy and air force. They took their ancestral swords to war in modern mounts. Some pilots carried short blades - wakizashi or tanto in their cockpits and a naginata can be mounted in short sword form with a shortened tang.

After the Japanese defeat in 1945 the swords were surrendered. Soldiers took them home as spoils of war and it is thought that over 100,000 Japanese swords are in the USA and many more in the UK and Europe. Many of these would not have been subject to the same regular care as in a Japanese household.

Just a theory of course, but it would help explain its great condition.

[fernando]

Thank you CC.
A rather rational reasoning :cool:.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
These items may possibly be of assistance.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Thanks much, Norman. With yours, i have gathered quite a few suggestions by now. This one comes with an injection (https://bondex.pt/produtos/interior/xylophene-sor-2-injector) system.

.

[kronckew]

Mother of pearl, as already confirmed.
...

.
Thanks for the better photo, looks just like MOP pieces.

[ariel]

fernando:
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me .

__________________________________________________ ________--

A perfect attitude!

[Battara]

Oh I agree. I have a koto wakazashi with my favorite - mokume hada. However it has some issues and is mumei. Thus it is not a high value piece, but I keep it and love it, imperfections and all (and for a koto blade some kizu imperfections are to be expected.).

Again congratulations! :)

[fernando]

... A perfect attitude! ...

:cool:.

[fernando]

...Again congratulations! :)
Thank you José.

[Kmaddock]

Hi Fernando,

Following on from the PM

If it were mine I would purchase 2 + M of sewer pipe with caps on both ends and suspend the staff inside the pipe with some string and an old T shirt soaked in ammonis at the bottom (not touching the shaft) and close both caps.

Ammonia is very volatile after a few hours there should be nothing left alive.

Lovely historical item from the time of Christopher Columbus, I have some Japanese swords and the condition of such ancient artefacts can be amazing.

Regards,

Ken

[fernando]

Lovely idea, Ken. What would be the pipe diameter; as to leave some space for the 1 1/4 " staff (32 m/m)

[Kmaddock]

Hi Fernando,
I would purchase around 100mm diameter "nominally 4 inch in Ireland" but anything similar would suffice,
You would want a bit of circulation to occur.
Regards
ken

[fernando]

Fine Ken; thanks much.

[Ren Ren]

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me :cool: .

I had the good fortune to see this amazing screen a few years ago in Moscow at an exhibition dedicated to Portuguese navigators. Unfortunately, there were almost no weapons there (which I hoped in my heart). But there were wonderful objects of the XV-XVII centuries from Japan, China, India, West Africa, which changed my point of view on the works of that era. In particular, Japanese lacquerware is very different from our usual products of the XIX-XX centuries. The same can be attributed to Chinese porcelain.

In my opinion, Japanese weapons of the XVI-XVIII centuries located in European museums and got there before the lifting of the ban after the Meiji restoration, is an interesting subject for scientific research. In addition to the very fact of its presence, this weapon can tell a lot about the diplomatic, trade and cultural ties between the states and peoples of the East and West. I am sure that in Portugal they can tell a lot about this to the whole world. And it is hard to imagine how much we could have known if the Great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 had not destroyed so many artifacts and documents of the history of navigation.

[fernando]

I had the good fortune to see this amazing screen a few years ago in Moscow at an exhibition dedicated to Portuguese navigators. Unfortunately, there were almost no weapons there (which I hoped in my heart). But there were wonderful objects of the XV-XVII centuries from Japan, China, India, West Africa, which changed my point of view on the works of that era. In particular, Japanese lacquerware is very different from our usual products of the XIX-XX centuries. The same can be attributed to Chinese porcelain.

In my opinion, Japanese weapons of the XVI-XVIII centuries located in European museums and got there before the lifting of the ban after the Meiji restoration, is an interesting subject for scientific research. In addition to the very fact of its presence, this weapon can tell a lot about the diplomatic, trade and cultural ties between the states and peoples of the East and West. I am sure that in Portugal they can tell a lot about this to the whole world. And it is hard to imagine how much we could have known if the Great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 had not destroyed so many artifacts and documents of the history of navigation.
Absolutely, Ren Ren. I see that you are well informed. In the great exhibition "ENCOMPASSING THE GLOBE - Portugal and the World in the 16th & 17th Centuries (organized by the Smithsonian), several examples of Japanese/Portuguese cultural exchange, the so called Nanban Art, may be seen; from which a powder flask, a couple of Nagenashima muskets ... and a Christian Japanese ( note the crucifix).


.

[fernando]

...Ammonia is very volatile after a few hours there should be nothing left alive.


Are you there Ken ? Can you define a "few hours" ?

[kronckew]

Are you there Ken ? Can you define a "few hours" ?
Few is more than 2. :D

Normal household ammonia evaporates quickly & is used to clean glass because of it. If you are using a stronger clinical concentration, I'd expect it to 'dry', i.e. the NH3/4 gasifies, very quick, quicker than water. The water component then dries as you would expect for your local Temp and humidity.


I'd wait a couple hours, then sniff it, if you smell ammonia, wait some more, until the smell dissipates.


Make sure you ventilate the area, do not mix ammonia with bleach or you'll generate poison gas. It can also darken woods with residual tannin, like oak.

[fernando]

Thank you Wayne.
I have used Ken's recipe; the wooden pole hanging inside a plastic tube ... completely sealed. In the bottom, two pieces of cloth heavily soaked in 24% ammonia, 2/3 liter of it. I left it sealed during 4 1/2 hours. When we opened it, the whole product was kept in there; i could evaorate, but couldn't escape from inside the tube. The burning vapors of this thing are completely unbearable, despite the (COVID) mask and glasses. I realize that, if any worms were still living inside the wood, the ammonia wacked them for good.


.

[Ren Ren]

Absolutely, Ren Ren. I see that you are well informed. In the great exhibition "ENCOMPASSING THE GLOBE - Portugal and the World in the 16th & 17th Centuries (organized by the Smithsonian), several examples of Japanese/Portuguese cultural exchange, the so called Nanban Art, may be seen; from which a powder flask, a couple of Nagenashima muskets ... and a Christian Japanese ( note the crucifix).


.
Thanks Fernando! These are rare and wonderful examples of Japan's cross-cultural connections.

[fernando]

:cool:.

[Kmaddock]

Sorry
Just back on grid this morning,
Glad the plan worked out
Regards
Ken

[fernando]

Thanks much, Ken.

Best.
Fernando