THE BORDER REIVERS.

[Peter Hudson]

For my main reference I will lean heavily on a good solid base of information at Wikipedia and begin with a quote and a few questions since Sir Walter Scott is said to have quoted Elizabeth 1st as having said that "With ten thousand such men, James VI could shake any throne in Europe."

Thus my question is; If this was the case then why didnt the English recruit these superb horsemen into their order of battle and who were they and what became of them?

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[M ELEY]

Hello Peter and thank you for bringing up this topic! I have only recently started to study these clans of the Southwest regions of Scotland. I recently found out through Ancestry.com that I'm 27% Scot and realized it was on my paternal grandmother's side. She was a Young. The Young clan were one of the many family groups of this region that were made up of the Border Reivers. As you probably already read, they were ferocious fighters who attacked other clans and also the English over their border (thus the name!:rolleyes:). I would imagine they made great warriors, but by their very nature, they were not 'team players'. I always imagine one of their clan being asked to whom do they hold allegiance to and they replying;

"To the three, laddie...me, myself, and I! Now go %$#* off!"

So they held no allegiances and were prickly around others. As I understand it, they were finally crushed by the king's forces near the end of the 16th century. It would indeed have been interesting, had they survived and remained strong, to see where they might have sided during the Jacobite troubles.

[Jim McDougall]

This is indeed a fascinating and esoteric topic, and as Mark has noted, the fact that their allegiance was primarily to their family or clan likely made them less than reliable for incorporating into regimented ranks. Their well earned reputation as fierce fighters and rugged came with their nature of outlaw character, with the term reiver from Old English, 'reive'=to rob.

Regardless of whether they were ever officially brought into the English order of battle, they were likely involved in degree, and as described, depending on the situation. What I think is important is the influences of the arms and armor used, which seem to consist of interesting assortment of forms from European sources with many apparently associated in the evolution of the famed basket hilt swords of Scotland. These of course were actually evolved in England as well and through these border regions and people.

[David R]

Both Scots and English kings used them in their local wars, but found them inclined to have their own alliances and motivation in combat. The unification removed their reason for existence and James really hated them, especially the Graham family who he outlawed and banished from the UK. The Steel Bonnets by George MacDonald Frazer is a good reference if you can get hold of it.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm a Graham; at least I was until my father married my mother.
Her family finally settled down to farming in Ford/Etal but her father ran off with the circus and became a lion tamer.
We were not alone in our infamy: the bloody Armstrongs and Robsons were equally unpleasant... they are still a thorn in my side - having employed both over the years.
It has now become fashionable, up here on the borders, to take pride in your Reiver ancestry.
The value of such prestige is as debatable as the borderlands; although our Port wines can inspire such confidence.
Here's our crest:

[Interested Party]

What, who is the hawk, eagle eating?

Never mind. I found an answer https://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/Graham.htm . I did not find out what the stork represented.

[urbanspaceman]

It is a falcon killing a stork... don't ask me about the provenance or intention.
If anyone knows - please enlighten us.

[M ELEY]

To be fair, many of the clans did not get along. There was frequent fighting between families and even in-fighting between members. The Highland clans didn't typically like the Lowlanders, etc. We even see this division when it came to the Rebellion periods. Not all Jacobites were Highlanders and vice versa. I've heard of the two separate groups of Clan Campbell, for instance, one supported the Bonny Prince, while the other King George I. So the Reivers weren't exactly a standout in this area. I think what made them 'infamous' was their ferocity, their refusal to 'take a side' and the fact that they did most certainly shake up the establishment on the English border. During their raids, no one was spared some grief, I imagine!

[urbanspaceman]

I have dragged this thread in an irrelevant direction I'm afraid; sorry Peter.

[urbanspaceman]

Thus my question is; If this was the case then why didn't the English recruit these superb horsemen into their order of battle and who were they and what became of them?


I don't think they were recruit-able.
You suggested yesterday that only by essentially enslaving them could they be commandeered, but I suspect they fought to the death at every opportunity.
Execute them or (as you also suggested) banish them.

[urbanspaceman]

For anyone interested in Clan warfare and all its details (such as dress and weaponry) I can seriously recommend this BBC 3 part documentary by Neil Oliver.
https://www.facebook.com/Dazzlerfilms/videos/blood-of-the-clans-neil-oliver-dvd-digital-download/366451934449838/

[Jim McDougall]

As noted, this is a fascinating topic, and seldom specified in most historical studies of Great Britain, but the 'Reivers' were a distinguishable group for centuries in these border regions between North England and Scotland. While references claim they existed as such as far as the early 17th century, it is of course obvious that they did not disappear, but simply became less known as a cohesive entity. They clearly assimilated into the societies of the recognized nations on either side which had effectively unified into one nation, Great Britain, so the outlaw convention had become infeasible under one law .
The inevitable strife remained, however political rather than warring.

The addition of personal geneological anecdotes here has greatly enhanced the dynamic of this discussion and for my view, heightened the discussion colorfully!
I would note that my own grandfather, a Highlander from the Western Isles, was noted in family lore to have advised, when choosing a wife, several attributes to seek, BUT be sure 'she is not a Campbell'.
This rather illustrates the internecine strife that existed between clans in Scotland, much as in most tribal cultures.

To best understand the character of these situations, with the many aspects of the Jacobite uprisings; the Stuart cause; Whig history; religious conflicts and clan conflicts of the British Isles the best reference I have found is "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans", Murray Pittock, 2009.

While not mentioning the Border Reivers by name, they were certainly part of the dynamics profoundly described in this analysis of these times .

Getting back to the main topic here, I would say that it was not just that Border Reivers were not specifically 'recruited' into one army or another, it that just as in most cases, people were not exactly 'card carrying' members of any specific group, clan or otherwise.Therefore though not 'officially' members of one army or another, they did function in auxiliary status in degree and as circumstances were in their favor. It is clearly noted that Reivers had only 'one side', which was their own family group, and that prevailed over all else.

Much as the famed 'pandours' in Europe, who were comprised of various ethnic and national groups and operated in assembled as raiding forces under the auspices of Austria in the mid 18th century, the 'Reivers' were much the same only less 'committed' to one specific controlling entity.

The 'pandours' adopted their own styles of warfare as well as weaponry, in the same manner the Reivers did, unique and effectively terrifying.
As I have mentioned, it would be interesting to look into the types of arms and armor that characterized the Border Reivers, and the influences that became integral in the development of nationally recognized forms from or through them.

Case in point would be the basket hilt, and how this distinctly formed weapon developed from the hilt forms of certain European swords, and became known in both England and Scotland in the 16th into 17th centuries. Many of the swords known to be used among the Border Reivers became essentially prototypes for what became the Highland hilt, or basket hilt.

[Peter Hudson]

Thanks to all for the replies ...As it happens Im a Charlton on my mothers side and even they were largely uprooted and moved to the Durmam coal Fields...Others were either executed often without trial or transported. The Apallatian region was heavily planted with Border Reiver names and Nixon and Armstrong were respectively President and moon walker ...both Reiver names. Place names in that region copiedfamous locations in the Border areas such as Durham County...and Durham City as well as Northumberland and Cumberland. It is understood that many dialectic words crop up in Hillbilly linguistics directly linked to Borden Reiver style.

In his book The Northumbrians the author Dan Jackson states that 25,000 Border Reivers were incorporated by Henry V111 into his cavalry making it the finest in Europe....

To compound the problem take a giant stride forward to Marsden Moor in 1644 ..the biggest fight on English soil ever! The Marquis of Newcastle with a couple of thousand Northern Horse on the Royalist side. These were Border Reivers in all but name but all were there in their famous White Coats by which they were then known. Other names were Hobilars and sometimes they took the name of the famous lance they carried..Prickers. The entire outfit was very late since the night before they were all the worse for drink but worse still a Royalist Prince Rupert.. gave them all a huge reprimand before they were placed on the battlefied. Of the roughly 3000 men probably consisting of half Infantry and Half Cav... only about 30 survived a massive Scottish onslaught...The Marquis ran away to the Low countries but a few years later was allowed to return but what about the Border Reivers?
In about 1603 when the amalgamation of Scotland with England occurred and by then the Borders were extinct... not even the word Borders was allowed and new laws were in place essentially trebling the fines against thieves ...and being caught with a horse could mean jail and or the chopping block. Even the famous Galloway horse was doomed thus the famous Border Reivers were closed down, rounded up, and either transported or killed...

To be a Border Reiver meant belonging to a clan like structures not unlike that of The Mafia with a kind of unwritten Reiver Mantra... An Eye For an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth....


The weapons of the Border Reivers is well worth looking at and the next phase I would like to bring on is just that...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

More great perspective Peter, and it is great to have more dimension revealed on how these distinct Reiver groups were indeed factored into armies in these cases.
As agreed the use of their weapon forms and many terms which have entered vernacular as expressions have shown the profound influence the Reivers have had culturally.

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).

[Peter Hudson]

Thanks Jim and nice to see the great artwork you have detailed. Peter

Please download the following;

https://archive.org/details/lordwardensofmar00peasuoft/page/238/mode/2up?view=theater

[urbanspaceman]

So long as the two countries were divided, the borders were policed by neither Scotland nor England; consequently, Reivers could reive in both countries and hide in the borders.
The Borders also provided refuge for Scots families who had been outlawed... as was often the case. These families tended to be politically troublesome as well as criminal, so inevitably they gave allegiance to no-one and stole from everyone.
Brian Moffatt has researched and recorded everything there is to know about the Reivers over on the West side of Northumberland. His website is a monumental - ongoing - work that gives jaw-dropping insight into the Reivers and the debatable lands:
https://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/?view=classic
Stealing cattle in Scotland and driving it into England... and vice-versa, was simply too good an opportunity to ignore. Stealing weapons from both countries was also a good idea and consequently led to the enormous variety of swords used.
Here on Tyneside we have an expression: "The Wilds of Wannie" meaning beyond civilisation. This comes from the Wansbeck River and hills running West to East across Northumberland about 20 miles north of Newcastle. Once you crossed over, you were in territory that was not policed and obviously dangerous; even after unification it was still not safe.

[Peter Hudson]

Thanks Keith,
Brian Moffat has more than 6 decades of study on this subject and has amassed a museum load of detail and research second to none. He is well down the road of putting a complete museum of artefacts in Hawick and hopefully we should be visiting there on its completion.

Thanks for your recent e mail last week telling me about Brian Moffat and his incredible saga.

Meanwhile on combing through information at Durham University here is a monumentally important thesis that vitally places The Northern Horse and its theory in warfare into perspective ...It shows how in the 16th C. these English Cavalry were used on the continent and covers how they were deployed as well as fine detail on their armaments.

Thus Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

Regards Peter Hudson.

[M ELEY]

Attached is a paper on the swords of the Reivers (please pardon my scribbled notes in the copy I saved which are not relevant to the printed work).
Yesterday 11:31 AM

Jim, thank you do much for this valuable material! As the Reivers were put down by the early 1600's, these sword types that the article indicates (pre-Claymore) are indeed the types they would have carried. I would also suggest the possible use of the claidheamh da laimh (the Braveheart sword type) during this time period-

[Peter Hudson]

Thank you M. Eley for your contribution and if I may point to page 35 of my reference it views the various weaponry usually fielded by Border Reivers.

Please see http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

Clearly there was no possibility for open cavalry tactics as the country in the borders is almost mountainous and thus virtually impossible unless moving singlefile on narrow tracks. However it is easy to see how horse born raiders could infiltrate great distances and apply flank security as well as recconaisance and reporting and not hindered by darkness their sudden appearance could be so effective as Light Cav...It was on the continent where any formal tactical training may have occured where using their inbred ability as hunters and herders and their courage would have been key to their success. Their lances from which the nickname Prickers ...was born.. were excellent as weapons as well as herding stolen animals... Firearms were essentially too costly but some richer Border Reivers possibly carried a pistol or two. The main missile weapon was either a crossbow (Latch) or a longbow. A particular type of curved sabre called a Winjer was carried and armour included a Jack ...a style of waist coat into which metal plates were sewn as a protection against enemy blades. The Lobsterpot head armour was often worn if it could be afforded...otherwise the addition of an axe or dagger may have completed their arms.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.effect.

[Jim McDougall]

With the 'assembled' nature of these organized groups of 'reivers', while there was a typical range of weaponry and dress, there were no regulations or standards, so 'anything was possible'. Typically on horseback, those mounted would of course not used the huge 'two hand' swords, and these men would have used whatever swords were available. As has been noted however, the most typical weapon was the couched lance. In the 16th century, which seem the period most attended historically, there were many forms of European fighting swords, most of them of types known to be used by the 'landsknechts', German mercenary forces.

The two hander was of course indeed used through the 16th century in Scotland in many cases, but mostly incidentally, as it was not a widely apportioned weapon. As in Europe, these huge swords had been decreasing in general use, and in Scotland, if I understand correctly, many of these had their blades cut down and were used in 'basket hilts'. Perhaps this may have been why the term 'claymore' was used through the 19th c. for the basket hilts, or maybe just a generalized term by then.

In a way I think of the Reivers in the manner of Jesse James during the Civil War, and with Quantrills Raiders. After the war, he and many of these soldiers simply continued their ways though they were now 'outlaws' . When they could no longer operate without impunity, they simply diffused into their own respective clans and no longer operated in the organized groups of before.

[Peter Hudson]

Thank you Jim... It appears that Border Reivers probably adopted their style from Hobilars...thus I define the Hobilar from ENGLISH INFANTRYMAN c.1320
An extract from Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1
by Ian Heath and I QUOTE"

HOBILAR

The term Hobilar first appeared in 1296, when it was applied to 260 light horsemen raised from the Anglo-Irish feudal estates for service in Scotland under Edward I. The word itself evolved from the native pony or ‘hobby’, 12-14 hands tall, that such a horseman rode, this word probably evolving in turn from the Gaelic obann, meaning quick or nimble. English, as opposed to Anglo-Irish, hobilars first appeared in 1300, closely based on their Irish counterparts but probably on the whole riding larger horses. They were basically mounted infantrymen and were the progenitors of (and in due course were steadily replaced by) the mounted archers of later armies, some of whom were even at first called hobilar-archers, such as were those assigned the duty of guarding the coast in 1364. Hobilars could be found both in magnates’ retinues and in shire levies, and were probably the same as armati.
In 1335 their equipment was laid down as horse, aketon or (coat-of-) plates (though writs of 1359 specify an haubergeon), a bascinet or palet (an unidentified type of helmet that could be of either iron or leather), gorget (either a quilted hood like that of 14 or else an aventail), iron gauntlets, sword, long knife and spear. The horse seems to have usually been valued at about 40s".UNQUOTE.


The region spoken of i.e. The shires of Scotland encompass the Borders of both countries and which formed their ancestral homes before the Union in about 1603... In a logical twist the retentionof the word Borders needed to be sorted thus it was banned from use...there could be no border thus that was that!


Border Reivers had a similar horse called a Galloway bred for its toughness and ability in mountains and cold weather. When the system moved against the Border Reivers it did so across the board and everything they were associated with including their horses was banned and outlawed on pain of death, imprisonment and or transportation. To make matters worse a huge retraining program was instigated to reteach religion to the people. ......Draconian laws meant that men were executed without trial...massive fines were imposed and even Moss Troopers those men trying to escape this system of strict laws and who had run away to Border Rieiver country...among the Marches/wastelands were mercilessly hunted down.

What is quite difficult to build among this disintegration is how the Border Reivers... as a renamed Northern Horse were able to join the English Army ORBAT as crack Cavalry and fight in foreign wars on the continent as well as survive mass transportation to places like The Apalachians and Ireland...often with little chance of returning home.

I hope to show some artwork of their weapons going forward...

Regards
Peter Hudson

[Peter Hudson]

Border Reivers Weapons See http://reivers.info/reiver-clothing-armour-weapons/

[M ELEY]

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

[Peter Hudson]

Indeed the terrain would have decided what sort of tactics were used thus the light cavalry style must have been used as dictated by the hills and mountains. Reivers were not all horse born and anyway the ability to ride into battle and skirmish on foot as required would have been normal...I see no reason to go against the idea of the left hand dagger and sword working in unison where required and where available the possible inclusion of firearms...I think sword blades would have been foreign and marked Andrea Ferrera and or with hogsback marks as well as occasional Solingen wolf marks. Hounslow Hangers could also be expected...

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

In the varying terrains of these regions the tactics would be pretty dependent on conditions and type of terrain as Peter has noted. It seems another of the most deterring factors in mounted attack has often been boggy or sodden ground from extensive rain. In cases of some of the celebrated 'charges' known in history, the 'hell for leather' sort of charge simply did not happen as depicted in embellished accounts, and much of the event was simply a trot or canter.

The interesting horses described as common to the Reivers seem to be forms of pony, smaller than war horses, but effective transportation. It would seem that in many cases, dismounted action as done by dragoons would have been common. Still the favored use of the couched lance would indicate considerable mounted action took place.

It is good to be getting more into the weapons used by the Reivers, and as would be well expected, there would have been a considerable range of forms. As noted, the lance/spear was much favored as a simple and readily available weapon, while swords and daggers of well known 16th century forms were at hand as well. There was some presence of firearms, but limited.

The 'whinger' (sic) was basically a short saber/hanger/cutlass or whatever vernacular term might be chosen. As Mark noted, these were typically the kinds of short heavier blades that were curved and resembled the Italian storta, whose North European counterpart was the 'dusagge'.

Many of these had developed basket type hilts such as those known as 'Sinclair sabers' which Whitelaw (1902); Jacobsen (1940) and Blair (1981) have thought were likely an influence on what became the Scottish basket hilt (in these times termed the 'Irish' hilt, collectively =Gaelic).

Along with these were the full length swords known as 'katzbalgers' as used by landsknechts (German mercenaries in Europe) which often had the same types of developed guards (many were with simple figure 8 guard) in their hilts which were of course included in these influences.

It does seem that in certain cases, there were cases of rapiers in use, and in the 'smoke and fire' analogy, surely the 'main gauche' (left hand dagger)were present with them.

More common were the daggers known as 'ballock' daggers colloquially (for the obvious anatomical resemblance in the hilt shape) but which became known also as the 'dudgeon' dagger, for the wood of the box tree used in the hilt. These were the precursor for the Scottish dirk, again showing the 'Reiver' factor in the development of these Scottish weapon forms along with the famed basket hilt.

The term 'dudgeon' in its foreboding connotation seems to be another term whose place with the origins of various terms have come from the Reivers.
Shakespeare uses the term in MacBeth, "..on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood".
The term dudgeon refers to the 'handle' (of that wood), in those days hilt referred only to the guard of the sword.

[Peter Hudson]

Here is a superb Reference https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32005/32005-h/32005-h.htm

[fernando]

The value of such prestige is as debatable as the borderlands; although our Port wines can inspire such confidence...
You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ? ;).

[Peter Hudson]

There are some excellent video presentations as under;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r10CfVIxBmg&list=RDLVok8k8NVuDnM&index=13

Here everything is covered and readers can chose which sections of The Border Reivers to study. Other important video stories are vital in the Mediaeval history of England Ireland and Scotland.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'.

I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.

[Peter Hudson]

Readers could be mistaken into thinking that Moss Troopers were some sort of extension or follow on from The Border Reivers but that is not the case...From https://carrotherscarruthers.wordpress.com/category/moss-troopers/ I QUOTE"

MOSS TROOPS
The term ‘Moss trooper’ is often, but quite erroneously applied to the Anglo-Scots border reiver of the sixteenth century. In fact there was an important difference between them in that most border reivers were otherwise respectable farmers and landowners, who from time to time set forth from their castles to steal livestock from their neighbours – ideally but not invariably on the other side of the border.

Moss troopers on the other hand were landless bandits, usually operating in wandering gangs, lurking in the mosses and maintaining themselves by highway robbery and petty thievery as well as cattle rustling. Initially the moss troopers who preyed on Cromwell’s stragglers and dispatch riders were just such bandits. But once they began to be organised under the command of regular officers such as Augustine (probably Captain Augustine Hoffman, formerly of Leslie’s Horse), and Patrick Gordon, alias ‘Steilhand the Mosser’, they developed into first-class light cavalry." UNQUOTE.

[Peter Hudson]

An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'.

I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.



Jim, it also points to similar rules across Europe as I discovered by applying for a definition at Wikipedia" I QUOTE. "

British Isles

: Welsh Marches and Scottish Marches
The name of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom in the midlands of England was Mercia. The name "Mercia" comes from the Old English for "boundary folk", and the traditional interpretation was that the kingdom originated along the frontier between the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxon invaders, although P. Hunter Blair has argued an alternative interpretation that they emerged along the frontier between the Kingdom of Northumbria and the inhabitants of the River Trent valley.

Latinizing the Anglo-Saxon term mearc, the border areas between England and Wales were collectively known as the Welsh Marches (marchia Wallia), while the native Welsh lands to the west were considered Wales Proper (pura Wallia). The Norman lords in the Welsh Marches were to become the new Marcher Lords.

The title Earl of March is at least two distinct feudal titles: one in the northern marches, as an alternative title for the Earl of Dunbar (c. 1290 in the Peerage of Scotland); and one, that was held by the family of Mortimer (1328 in the Peerage of England), in the west Welsh Marches.

The Scottish Marches is a term for the border regions on both sides of the border between England and Scotland. From the Norman conquest of England until the reign of King James VI of Scotland, who also became King James I of England, border clashes were common and the monarchs of both countries relied on Marcher Lords to defend the frontier areas known as the Marches. They were hand-picked for their suitability for the challenges the responsibilities presented.

Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of Dunbar, a descendant of the Earls of Northumbria was recognized in the end of the 13th century to use the name March as his earldom in Scotland, otherwise known as Dunbar, Lothian, and Northumbrian border.

Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, Regent of England together with Isabella of France during the minority of her son, Edward III, was a usurper who had deposed, and allegedly arranged the murder of, King Edward II. He was created an earl in September 1328 at the height of his de facto rule. His wife was Joan de Geneville, 2nd Baroness Geneville, whose mother, Jeanne of Lusignan was one of the heiresses of the French Counts of La Marche and Angouleme.

His family, Mortimer Lords of Wigmore, had been border lords and leaders of defenders of Welsh marches for centuries. He selected March as the name of his earldom for several reasons: Welsh marches referred to several counties, whereby the title signified superiority compared to usual single county-based earldoms. Mercia was an ancient kingdom. His wife's ancestors had been Counts of La Marche and Angouleme in France.

In Ireland, a hybrid system of marches existed which was condemned as barbaric at the time.[a] The Irish marches constituted the territory between English and Irish-dominated lands, which appeared as soon as the English did and were called by King John to be fortified.[10] By the 14th century, they had become defined as the land between The Pale and the rest of Ireland.[11] Local Anglo-Irish and Gaelic chieftains who acted as powerful spokespeople were recognised by the Crown and given a degree of independence. Uniquely, the keepers of the marches were given the power to terminate indictments. In later years, wardens of the Irish marches took Irish tenants.[12][13][14]".UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Peter! That really deepens the texture of these border regions in this more complex understanding. MOST interesting! Thank you.

[Peter Hudson]

I think evidence of the follow on of The Northern Horse virtually wiped off the battlefield in 1644 at Marsden Moor may be observed at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rabble-Gentility-Royalist-Northern-1644-45/dp/1911512986

Here I am talking about the actual animal which after the battle must have been rounded up and sold ..apparently across England.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ? ;).

Hello Fernando; late in responding: I've been AWOL this weekend.
Graham's Port is available in any of our supermarkets and is an acceptable drop; but I visited a shop in Lisbon on several occasions (corner shop on the edge of the city-center close to the river; sadly, I forget its name) that brings the truth of my previous satisfactory experiences into disrepute. This shop, and its owner made me realise just what a truly wonderful product Port can be. I love Lisbon... especially at Christmas in a tuc-tuc after a couple of glasses.

[fernando]

Just browse the Net on "Ne Oblie" selective Graham's Port cast, to better see what i meant ;).

[M ELEY]

Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/

[Peter Hudson]

Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/

This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Further more ... It also meant to give someone a thrust of the broadsword ..To give someone a Whinge .

[urbanspaceman]

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

[Peter Hudson]

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

[urbanspaceman]

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.

[Jim McDougall]

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is really interesting Peter! and I had never heard of this 'Lockerbie Lick'! I always wonder at the many localized idioms used to describe these sword fighting 'tricks'. It seems the Scots had very distinct moves and measures they employed in fencing, and these are well described by Donald McBane in "The Expert Swordsmans Companion"(1728) and the "Scots Fencing Master" by Sir William Hope (1687).

The Spaniards in their mysterious, geometric 'Spanish fight' called destreza, used many unique 'tricks' which were regarded as formidable, if not deadly, despite the derision with which this elaborate style was often regarded.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm:D...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Jim,
In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023

Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe.
The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc...

Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention.
This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language.
Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase.
:confused:
This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from?
It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then.
Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely.
I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here.
All input is gratefully received.

[Peter Hudson]

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread?
I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.

[Peter Hudson]

In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to

http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook/Renaissance/06_English.htm

and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour.
Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century.
Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'.
They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle!
Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

Spot on! The term 'colichemarde' term is entirely with respect to the blade, as the hilt forms are the same as on the small swords of the period. The term is apocryphal but the alignment with the cognate Konigsmark seems reasonable enough. His reputation as a duelist was likely the choice to term the blade form.

[urbanspaceman]

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?

[urbanspaceman]

Peter, this stuff is fantastic... thank-you.

[Peter Hudson]

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?
''
Keith,
I am not sure... It is a bit unclear ...see https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Colichemarde#Brief_history...which is also unclear...Peter

[Peter Hudson]

The muddle is best seen at https://core.ac.uk/reader/161102560

while the full story is worth looking at...even if the mathematics are a puzzle...The familytree does however seem to be pointing at Karl Johan as the more likely root of this swords start point...

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

Regards,
Peter Hudson.


From "Hunting Weapons", 1971, H.L.Blackmore, p.14:
"...whineyard, whinyard or in its Scottish form, whinger, is defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as a hanger".

[Peter Hudson]

In observing my #1 at thread starter it occurred to me that I have not yet uncovered the answer to the main question...Here is the problem outlined at #1 THE BORDER REIVERS.
For my main reference I will lean heavily on a good solid base of information at Wikipedia and begin with a quote and a few questions since Sir Walter Scott is said to have quoted Elizabeth 1st as having said that "With ten thousand such men, James VI could shake any throne in Europe."

Thus my question is; If this was the case then why didnt the English recruit these superb horsemen into their order of battle and who were they and what became of them?




The main reason for that is because there is not simply one answer but a host of reasons for their decline some outlined at #13 on thread (viz; In about 1603 when the Union of the Crowns occurred and by then the Borders were extinct... not even the word Borders was allowed and new laws were in place essentially trebling the fines against thieves ...and being caught with a horse could mean jail and or the chopping block. Even the famous Galloway horse was doomed thus the famous Border Reivers were closed down, rounded up, and either transported or killed...) It is apparent that they were also hammered on all sides by not only legal factors but also pressure, threats and persecution often amounting to death penalties, execution without trial, torture and imprisonment from every angle from all levels of society, military tribunal, court orders Royal Decree and national and regional laws over a pressurised period from about 1530 through to probably 1644... The latter date suggested by me since that was the battle of Marsdon Moor which largely threw a huge spanner into the works when the Marquis of Newcastle fielded about 3,000 whitecoats (better known as Northumberland Horse "possibly" decended from Border Rievers...) both as Cavalry and Infantry and according to Prince Rupert arrived on the position late and drunk... and who were wiped out almost to a man as only about 30 survived) This over simplified version is something of a smoke screen and cannot have been the date on which the actual Border Rievers became extinct. I much prefer the huge dislocation and erosion of the disastrous period in Northumberland between 1542 and 1560.

Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

This will take you to a page of ABSTRACT (printed below) and above that see the sign PDF. Click on that and it opens.

The over riding document is a much more detailed, broadly based description of what the true answer is.

The final phase of the Anglo-Scots Wars (1542-1560) significantly affected Northumberland. The Tudor government attempted to use the militarised society of Northumberland a s a means of subduing Scotland. However, the ensuing conflict took a heavy toll on the Marches. Instability plagued the region, while leading military families feuded with each other. The efforts of the Tudors were not concerted enough to overcome the Marches' allegiance to kith and kin. March society proved to be remarkably inhospitable for Tudor state building, and in the end, the military community of Northumberland remained just as vulnerable to both internal and external threats as it had been before the wars. This work questions the success of Tudor state building տ the mid-sixteenth century. The analysis employs both State Papers and local documents to illuminate the political dialogue between central government and the peripheral frontier administration. Official correspondences of March officers also highlight the depths to which Tudor policy had taken root in Northumberland. An analysis of muster rolls suggests that Northumbrian society’s involvement in the wars greatly fluctuated over nearly a twenty-year period, only to see the military capacities of Northumbrians significantly wane by 1560. The personal testimonies of officers imply that the Tudors had some initial success in bringing significant military power to their side. However, the same documents also suggest that incoherent policies resulted from the rapid succession of three separate monarchs after the death of Henry V111. In the end, the Tudor state was unable to instil order in Northumberland, and the military necessities of frontier security remained problematic for the rest of the sixteenth century.

[urbanspaceman]

You can look no further than Newcastle, sometimes occupied by the Scots, sometimes the English, as an example of shifting loyalties... rather than divided loyalties - which, of course, constantly prevailed:

The North of England had long been viewed by those in the South as a den of Popery. "Half of the population is of the Popist faith and the other half are well-disposed towards it" wrote one Southerner. Actually, half of England's population were indifferent to religion back then, the remaining half were divided about 50/50: Catholic/Protestant.

In August 1688, the Mayor and Corporation of Newcastle sent congratulations to King James (VII/II) on the birth of his son: "…a blessing on the Prince of Wales". But in November of the same year, after the Glorious Revolution, that same Mayor and Corporation declared their allegiance to the Prince of Orange (William III) with the mob dragging the statue of a mounted King James from its base on the riverside and throwing it into the river.

The Romans made a right dammed mess of life around the Tyne - which was never a natural border, as observation of sheep farming practices will show.

Most of Northumberland remained essentially Scottish in the wake of the Roman occupation, but the loyalty of Northern barons, during the reign of King John, were never secure, and Westminster preferred to deal in bribery and corruption in an attempt to ensure a secure buffer zone. Hence the glorious opportunities for the clans.

[Peter Hudson]

Hi Kieth, You are right and it is clear that Religion also played into the mix. Even in recent history we have seen Catholic riots in the North East and the raft of arguements based on conflicting religious issues during and after Tudor reigns were common.

The question about whether Border Rievers could have been used as a kind of super battle group of top notch Cavalry is an interesting one although I sense it was more of a propaganda tool which may have worked or may have failed ~Im not entirely convinced. They were tough, good, troopers highly skilled but fell apart across the board though some at least may have retained jobs on the continent as horsemen to a certain degree although the question as to their ability to learn new tactics and change with cavalry warfare comes under pressure as does their loyalty... the latter being understandable under the circumstances.. Some became mercenaries while others used their expertise in foreign lands such as Ireland and in the Americas in such places as the Appalachians and where surnames like Nixon ...and Armstrong cropped up with many others....

Anyway their warlike nature despite their agressiveness took such a battering across the entire spectrum that they inevitably collapsed and many were uprooted and transplanted to other areas and countries. ...

The continued avalanche of rediculous laws and decrees must surely be where the problem caused or added to their downfall and disintegration. In the final years of their rise to fame it can be seen how their own self destruction and warring between families eventually eroded their chances of ever morphing into a crack English or British Cavalry outfit...where ten thousand of them could certainly have changed the outcome of many conflicts.

Therefor I conclude that ...as per the end of the ABSTRACT above in #57 The personal testimonies of officers imply that the Tudors had some initial success in bringing significant military power to their side. However, the same documents also suggest that incoherent policies resulted from the rapid succession of three separate monarchs after the death of Henry V111. In the end, the Tudor state was unable to instil order in Northumberland, and the military necessities of frontier security remained problematic for the rest of the sixteenth century.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

This is an extremely complex topic, and field of study, and to be quite honest, it was far too daunting for my own researches of many years back. However, the attached article I saved from 1996 reveals that I did have an interest in that I realized the importance of the Border Reivers in overall study of the history of British arms.

Actually, I did not realize the magnitude of this until meeting Peter and Keith some years ago, and though I cannot claim a full understanding of this key group of people, I have learned a great deal.
I know now that the 'Reivers' are an important link in Scottish and English history, and the likely source for many of the intriguing variants in these types of arms and armor so often encountered.

With regard to the political and potential of military viability of the Reivers, it does seem like in the beginning of the 17th century, English monarchs desperate for the union between Scotland and England launched many punitive expeditions into these regions. This effected mostly more intense descent into lawlessness and even less cohesiveness among these groups, who were more about family and clan than any recognized entity.

As numbered groups however, it does seem that they did have elements of martial viability, as noted,
"...as late as 1648, at the height of the Civil War, "English cavaliers" along with some "malignants of Scotland" numbering over 70 horsemen with a small number of foot came to Carlisle with ladders, scaled the walls, entered the castle, . broke open the gaol, released Moss troopers and other prisoners, wounded the gaoler and all marched off into Scotland".

Into the Jacobite rebellions, it is well known that these conflicts were not about Jacobite (for the Stuarts) vs. the English Hanoverians alone. The men fighting in these were about numerous disparate ajendas, not that alone.
Many were about religious reasons, defending their Episcopalian Faith. There were as many involved in clan disputes, vendettas and conflicts.

It was much like the Civil wars, both in England and America. Families had participants fighting against each other for separate ideals. In Scotland there were many separate groups, Highlanders, Lowlanders, Islesmen in the main categories.

With the Reivers, they were on the border(?) the ethereal divider between kingdoms, geographically. Stronger was the bond of clan, family and among Reivers, the fealty was equally divided as to which or to whom, and that could change at any time.

All of this is as Peter and Keith have well explained, and I only add my own notes to finally grasp it all myself.

As the descendant myself of Islesmen in the Highlands, and both Peter and Keith directly descended from Reiver families, it is intriguing to know our ancestors were in one way or another involved in these events in these times.
It has been the greatest adventure to learn all of this through them.
Thank you guys!

[urbanspaceman]

That is an excellent article Jim, I can see why it intrigued you. Accurate too.
Peter and I should visit the museum.
The man at the center of Reiver lore is Brian Moffat who I introduced Peter too.
He's up in Howick (pronounced howk) and what he doesn't know about the Reivers is not worth knowing.
He and his family have been battling for decades (he's a retired Copper) to establish a museum dedicated to the Reivers... we can't wait to visit.
As some of you are now aware I am of Graham descent and maybe proud of it.
Our troublesome rivals were the Armstrongs and the Robsons and remain so to this day.
Feuding is global of course.

[urbanspaceman]

Sir Walter Scott!!!
Don't believe a word.
He never let the truth spoil a good story.
He had a hell of a bonnie house as a result.
Images follow.

[urbanspaceman]

Snap shots of Sir Walter Scott's house.

[Peter Hudson]

Secrecy, subterfuge and spin doctoring were part of the Tudor program as well as being employed later ... People vanished and executions took place all over the shop... The big names in the lying game were those with a close connection to the rulers and Sir Walter Scott was certainly up there with the best of them..even though he didnt appear for a few hundred years after the event he is creditted with actually inventing the name of the wars... The Wars of the Roses... The biggest spin doctor in Tudor times was William Shakespeare who had carte blanche to write anything he liked (or rather, the Tudors liked) . This we now call "propaganda".

For utter and total lies and myths simply look at The Wars of The Roses which were largely inventions of the various muddle of lies where one side having run out of arrows took to throwing black puddings at the enemy whilst the others replied it is said by pelting them back with Yorkshire puddings. Much poisoned ink flowed through other exponents of this technique and Richard 111 falls into that category.

Here is a great video presentation on this very subject.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bs0hn The Title is revealing .. The Biggest Fibs in British History. And among that lot are the many lies and twists of the Border Riever story during which many people were hung or had their heads removed on the block or were simply drowned...often based on heresay or lies or complex stories passed by laws but often without trial...I believe this resulted in a complete erosion of trust in the Borders and locked the doors on the idea of these warriors ever becoming part of the ORBAT in The English Cavalry.

[Peter Hudson]

Some detail on the Marquis of Newcastle... thus a better understanding of what happened to the idea of Border Rievers and their potential as English Cavalry...

From The Web...William Cavendish
William Cavendish, Marquis of Newcastle, 1593-1676. Cultured aristocrat who became commander of Royalist forces in the north of England during 1642-4. He lost heart and went into exile after his defeat at Marston Moor.

At Marsden Moor in 1644 the Duke of Newcastle .. William Cavendish fielded about 2000 to 3000 soldiers... mainly dismounted infantry who were essentaially wiped out by a Scotish surge ... It is interesting to note that Sir Walter Scott Two Centuries later spoke of the Royalist contingent of The Marquis of Newcastle (The Whitecoats) were somehow absorbed into the English Cavalry and that at some point Queen Elizabeth 1 may have been impressed by their cavalry skills and they were the finest horsemen in Europe Etc Etc...

The Duke of Newcstle as preferring to die rather than surrender whereas that may not be quite how or why it happened because the attack on the Whitecoats was done by a group who were not only made up of Scottish soldiers but a large contingent of men from Sunderland.

On the map Sunderland and Newcastle are quite close however they didnt get on well...In fact they hated each other and indeed the Sunderland contingent were Covenanters... So not only were the Whitecoats outnumbered and on foot... but they faced an enemy which despised them greatly.

So it was that a long time after the battle In the 19th C. Sir Walter Scott wrote that detail ... in his self appointed role as latter day Tudor spin doctor ...See above detail in bold letters... Simply not true.


What seems to further confuse matters is that The leader of the Whitecoats then ran away to Europe and though he did return later he had no part in reorganising the Whitecoats ... He had in fact been an excellent trainer and exponent of Cavalry and Equestrian expertise but was not further involved in Cavalry doctrine or training. In fact another serious blow to English Cavalry selection was the fact that although there were Border Rievers who had been involved in European wars as members of English contingents ..that once these had reurned home they were demobbed immediately and thus took no further part in the story. The build up and aftermath of Culloden and the persecution of Border Rievers ...It was illegal to have a Galloway horse and Borderers could be executed even on suspicion of being a Riever...without trial...further diminished the chances of them being somehow included in the English Cavalry Orbat...It never happened.

Peter Hudson.

[Peter Hudson]

I read a good report on the English Civil Wars at https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1930/cavalry-in-the-english-civil-wars/

I note the English Cavalry information...however that the detail and reasoning for following up the potential use of Border Riever cavalry is basically absent following the 1644 Battle Of Marsden Moor. After this it appears that history is absorbed into the thick fog of subterfuge and myth...taking with it a failure to use the Border Riever expertise using the sturdy Galloway Horses or to incorporate these and their tough Border Rievers into English Cavalry Orbat.

Peter Hudson.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Peter. That is a good article: five minutes reading and I learned all about militia ranks and file. Thank-you.

[Peter Hudson]

Hello Kieth, I dug up another great reference at https://archive.org/details/lifewilliamcave00firtgoog/page/n242/mode/2up?view=theater covering the life of William Cavendish the Marquis of Newcastle which ties together his part in the Battle of Marsdon Moor as well as his distinction in raising several thousand mounted infantry known as The Whitecoats... ]

Peter.

[urbanspaceman]

A wonderful dissertation; thanks Peter.

[Peter Hudson]

230584

[Peter Hudson]

231313Just sweeping back through the thread I noted references to Whinjer at 37,38 and 39...and just picked up a picture of what seems to be a Whinjer ...A curved sword often worn by Border Reivers. There arent a lot of these about...I suppose variations on a theme would include Sinclair or Storta etc?

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

[Peter Hudson]

Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

[urbanspaceman]

Actually, the blade on the above is longer than was typical of Hounslow hangars but the hilt is absolutely typical.
I've never considered where that style of hilt came from, despite it being quite unique to my inexperienced eye.
If the sword you posted does, in fact, date from the 1500s, then we have a line of development that is well worth exploring.
If you are there Jim, perhaps you can shed some light here as well.

[urbanspaceman]

This stimulates another related issue regarding what I always considered a Hounslow hangar that has ANNO 1553 on both sides of the blade (see attached).
This figure relates to the date of our briefest reigning monarch: Lady Jane, just 16 years old when she inherited the throne, reigning for only 9 days before being executed within the year.
I thought the style of sword and blade was typical of Hounslow and the numbers on the blade talismanic (although the word ANNO does rather contradict that) but perhaps this is not the case... any input here would be greatly appreciated.

[fernando]

I would say definitely not talismanic nor cabalistic. It might not necessarily be the date the blade was forged, but most certainly a tribute to the ephemeral Queen.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Fernando.
Thank-you, yes, we are in agreement.

[Jim McDougall]

Im late in on this, but most interesting. The 'whinger' term is as suggested a variation of the 'hanger' term if have understood most references, with terms for these types of swords sometimes being 'cutlass' as well.

The type swords with these distinct style hilts with pommel cap, a downturned counter guard, knuckleguard etc seem to have been an English form of 1640s, perhaps slightly earlier and used well through the century. Some references have classified somewhat later examples (Hounslow effectively ended around mid 17thc) as of 'Hounslow school'.

This is my example, it is noted that Hounslow often produced these with serrated back edge for maritime use...note the distal third of the blade resembles the other blade posted (Peter, your #71), also slightly wider. ..also the familiar 'running wolf' suggesting numbers of blades indeed were coming in from Solingen.
The story of the German smiths who came to England at the beckon of the King used the running wolf spitefully toward their Solingen guilds, but it seems not the case, and many of them signed their blades with Anglicized names.

With the ANNO 1553, this numeric combination does not seem to correspond to the talismanic combinations typically known, and the 'anno' term, as noted would defeat such suggestion. However with the Solingen running wolf, and upside down in the proper Solingen convention, this seems likely another spurious Solingen combination, and not surprising to be seen in Hounslow context.

[urbanspaceman]

I think I should start another thread regarding the history of this distinctive and unique hilt as we are moving away from the Border Reivers.

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.

I think the idea to move the Hounslow topic to its own thread was a great idea Keith, as that deserves more specific research and discussion. As Peter has noted here, the 'Reivers' context seems to have included a good number of innovative armorers who repurposed and fashioned various arms for use. As noted, the weaponry of 'foreign ' origins likely not only were brought back as whole, but influences and components formed the basis for many Reiver weapons.
As with most armies of these times, the groups comprising the Reiver entity were of a notable range of means, and would be armed accordingly.

[Peter Hudson]

I must place this video expertly done to illustrate how Border Reivers spread across the landscape in Ulster ... A brilliant video in my view.

please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5LKbRjSG8

Peter Hudson.

[Jim McDougall]

In hopes of keeping this valuable thread going, before continuing writing I went back to read through the content, and realize even more how fascinating this relatively obscure history of Great Britain really is!

To reiterate the identity and character of the 'riding' families, the term rider I think comes from the German 'reiter' (=horseman) and with the Reivers mounted on their maneuverable and hearty ponies, they were incredibly formidable in their raiding (the term reive =raiding).

Reading through the captivating pages of "The Reivers" by Alistair Moffat, 2008, the content literally grabs you as the book is laid out in text with blocked references to key descriptions rather than footnotes or tedious paragraphs.

For example, notes on the long leather, metal studded coats that served as armor, and called 'jack'.......I found that when cut down for mounted wear, it became a 'jacket'. There are countless bits of this kind of information revealing how much of the colorful and intriguing language, terms, nicknames etc came from the culture of these people.

In recent discussions, there has been focus on the swords used by the Reivers, and it is noted that these men had a most 'cosmopolitan' taste in weaponry, certainly from forays into foreign campaigns as mercenaries.
Moffat notes that weapons from Germany and Italy were indeed 'imported' or brought back, and that local armorers often made their own versions of these as well as various armor items etc.

Most often seen were the types of basket style hilts from North Europe known as dusagge or Sinclair which also were influencing English basket hilts. These circulating through these regions became the prototypes for the famed Highland hilts (termed Irish hilts in those times), while some of the Sinclair type versions were deemed 'schiavona' like.

While the Reivers' period effectively ended in 1603 when James IV took the throne, and essentially dismissed the border, now terming the former border lands the 'middle shires'...he took to persecution of these families and harshly prosecuting any 'lawlessness'. However, of course, the Reiver identity remained profoundly intact, and continued in degree regardless.

Returning to weapons discussions, on swords and the 'whinger' term:
From a previous post,
"whineyard, whinyard, or Scottish 'whinger' ..defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as 'a hanger'.

From: "Hunting Weapons", H.L.Blackmore, 1971, p.14

[Peter Hudson]

Please see https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/how-northern-england-made-southern-united-states from which I QUOTE" But perhaps the most vivid vignette of the borderers’ enduring influence on America came via George MacDonald Fraser’s description – in his introduction to his study of the border Reivers The Steel Bonnets – of that moment in 1969 when the descendants of ‘three notable Anglo-Scottish Border tribes’ gathered for the US presidential inauguration in Washington DC, with Lyndon Johnson handing over to Richard Nixon in the presence of Billy Graham (while at Cape Canaveral, another descendent of the borderers, Neil Armstrong, prepared himself for the Apollo 11 Space Mission). Johnson with his ‘lined, leathery Northern head and rangy, rather loose-jointed frame’, and Nixon’s ‘blunt, heavy features, the dark complexion, the burly body, and the whole air of dour hardness’ which was, in MacDonald Fraser’s view, ‘as typical of the Anglo-Scottish frontier as the Roman Wall’. "UNQUOTE.

Regards,Peter Hudson.

[Brian Moffatt]

Way off subject I know...
But anyone interested in blade construction may find my recent posting on Shotley Bridge Swords of interest.
The Border Reivers and very much more....
In addition we are now putting the finishing touches to the Borderlands Museum... and hope to have it up and running in the New Year...
This is the result of 62 yrs continuous work by this family, and their associates... may of whom are now classed as "absent friends."
Best way to keep updated is on my blog.. the link to which is below...
All the Best to Everyone...
Brian Moffatt.
Senior Curator.
The Borderlands Museum.

(A Shrine... A Memorial... and an Art Installartion.)

https://fallingangelslosthighways.blogspot.com/2023/09/an-early-shotley-bridge-sword-with.html

[Peter Hudson]

Thank you Brian Moffat and I look forward to seeing your museum in the new year...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.