Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

[awdaniec666]

Hi all,

I´d like to make a little listing available here as a PDF file. It is about sabers used in the area of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Hungary. It is not about the production origins, solely their existence in a time period based on comprehensive paintings. I noticed there seem to be some misconceptions on forums and auction houses when it comes to dating these swords and talk is cheap so I decided to collect some contemporary depictions of sabers and match them as best as possible with photographs of specimen.
Also reading books about this topic I wonder sometimes why some authors date certain swords in a specific way: Turns out sometimes that authors rely on books written a hundred years ago and take what was then nothing more than a working hypothesis as pure fact. This is annoying. Since these paintings are all veryfied when it comes to their production date, it´s an elegant way of "proof" for a dating.

Please note that the age of the sabers depicted on the photos do eventually not correspond 1:1 with the depiction on those paintings because those have been used throughout many decades.
Some time gaps still remaining because of the lack of contemporary visual sources.

Best,
Patrick

[Teisani]

Very nice! Thank you for posting this. I would like to add a few a few observations:

1 - the portret of Vlad Țepeș Drăculea III is actually one from around 1700, commissioned by the Esterhazy family. So, it really represents what the people of 1700 thought what Țepeș looked like, not what he actually looked like(see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JUPq5NEEo). As such it can't be used to prove the existance of "boot-hilt hungarian sabres at that time (1460s). Here's another portrait that makes me scratch my head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_IV#/media/File:Sultan_Mehmed_IV_(2).jpg. According to this portrait, Mehmed IV (circa 1682) had a Polish-Hungarian boot-hilted sabre. What's the likelihood?

2 - Another sabre that looks like Martin Kober/Kubinyi Dániel's (1595) portrait sabre is this one https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33998

3 - A few relevant pictures can also be found here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10450&page=3

4 - A few more suggestions for which we know the owner and therefore the date:

Nikola Zrinsky/Zrínyi Miklós: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanulmanyok-zrinyi-szablyak.html &&&&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/katalogus/xvi-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/hadi-viselet/fegyverek/koezelharci-fegyverek/kardok/szablyak/szablya-csaktornya---zrinyi-miklos

Ferdinand II, Archduke of Austria??? (1526–1564)??? made in 1514https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/record/oai-aggregated-bib5847482 &&&& https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanulmanyok-zrinyi-szablyak.html
From the second source:
The replacement of the Turkish, acorn-shaped grip cap with a flat, crested cap is a Hungarian peculiarity. An illustrative example of this is the Turkish-style decorative saber - made in 1514 - which is also Tirol II. It comes from the former collection of Archduke Ferdinand, and not only the grip cap, but also the cross iron was changed to a Hungarian shape. The letters IHS can be seen on the front, while the I.F. monogram can be seen on the latter. Presumably, the saber is connected to the Hungarian king Ferdinand I (1526–1564), who received the saber from Hungarian lords on the occasion of some notable event, such as a coronation or other celebration. It was used not only for newly manufactured sabers, but also for looted or gifted Turkish weapons, where the original cap was replaced. In its development, not so much practicality as fashion may have played a role.

Bebek György: https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/katalogus/xvi-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/hadi-viselet/fegyverek/koezelharci-fegyverek/kardok/szablyak/szablya-magyarorszag---bebek-gyoergy &&&&&&&&& https://www.szadvar.hu/2021/07/bebek-gyorgy-szablyaja/

Đorđe Branković (1688?): https://oruzjeonline.com/2021/10/04/sablja-za-nesudjenog-kralja/

Thury György (1519 -1571), not a sabre, but a pallash: https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/2021/03/thury-kardja.html &&&&&& https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thury_Gy%C3%B6rgy

There is also Gjergj Kastrioti/Skanderbeg's pallash, but it's provenance is debatable https://carolynperry.blogspot.com/2020/12/the-helmet-and-sword-of-skanderbeg-in.html

It seems that the fashion for sabres in the 1500s/early 1600s was that of long quillons. Just look at Bathory, Zrinsky, Bebek, Ferdinand's sabres. Even Thury's pallash has long quillons. Each quillon is roughly the same length as the handle. So most likely these ones are from the 1500s as well https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/record/oai-aggregated-bib5810577 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/284576 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/289065 &&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/katalogus/xvi-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/hadi-viselet/fegyverek/koezelharci-fegyverek/kardok/szablyak/szablya-szikszo &&& https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/371721/?lv=detail
Maybe this one too https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/371717/

[awdaniec666]

Hey Teisani,
thanks a lot for this lot of information - I will go through it when I got the time. Also thank you for poiting out the correct date of Vlad´s depiction, guess I missed something there.

[Teisani]

A few period depictions of 16th and early 17th century East European sabres in portraits:

[Teisani]

An interesting site with portraits of mostly Hungarian nobility (many of them with their sabres).
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/viselet-ajanlasok/xvii-szazad/adattar

[awdaniec666]

An interesting site with portraits of mostly Hungarian nobility (many of them with their sabres).
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/viselet-ajanlasok/xvii-szazad/adattar

What an exceptional source! Thanks for sharing! :)

[Teisani]

What an exceptional source! Thanks for sharing! :)
You're welcome. Another useful search phrase in Google images, you already may know of, is "portret sarmacki". It gives plenty of images of noblemen wearing sabres.

[Teisani]

In addition to sabres, I recommend looking at pallashes as well, since they have roughly the same hilts as contemporary sabres.
Here are two hussar pallashes from Lithuania which I rarely see posted:
1 - https://vdkm.limis.lt/en/eksponatai/perziura/-/exhibit/preview/190000002130116?s_id=gv8T7wD3ovyttfQe&s_ind=794&valuable_type=EKSPONATAS
2 - https://www.limis.lt/en/paieska/perziura/-/exhibit/preview/5299492?s_id=LUobq6PGtsAlNW2q&s_ind=299&valuable_type=EKSPONATAS

[Teisani]

Another thing to consider when dating sabres can be scabbard fittings. Here's an interesting article on this topic (in Russian, but Google translate works well enough). https://www.kitabhona.org.ua/libwar_armor/oboyma1.html

[awdaniec666]

Teisani,
I regret not having the time in the moment to dive in a extended discussion about our topic here with you but I follow your posts with great interest. Feel free to take the PDF from above and add information to it, if you want. I think this would be beneficial for all readers. There is so much to talk about and I will come back to it on a regular basis after finishing my final university exam which consumes nearly all of my time until April :eek: I had the urge to write this because you´re putting in that effort and so much in-depth information. Thanks again for that.

[Teisani]

Teisani,
I regret not having the time in the moment to dive in a extended discussion about our topic here with you but I follow your posts with great interest.

No worries awdaniec666. For now, I will try to compile sabres/depictions of sabres that can be reliably dated to the period of interest (eg Nikola Zrinski's sabre, which physically exists and of which there is also a period depiction).

Once all this compilation is done, the analysis/conversation of said data can begin. I'll post everything I have in the next week (not much, just what I could find online).

A few notes:

1 - The title is "Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers"; however, I believe some Byzantine/Ottoman Empire sabres from the 1400s-1600s may be included for analysis as Central and Eastern Europe did not develop in a vacuum.

2 - I have some doubts that the sabre depicted here has a karabela hilt (first page your PDF). When you have time, could you please provide a higher quality picture, or tell me where was it taken? I just have doubts that the karabela hilt originated in the early 1500s.

3 - The picture of the Ferdinand II, Archduke of Austria sabre is really nice :). When you have time, can you please provide it in a higher resolution on this thread?

Have a nice day and good luck with your exam!

[Teisani]

A nice book: Huszárfegyverek a 15-17. században by Kovács S. Tibor https://issuu.com/lajosyossarian/docs/kov__cs_s._tibor_-_husz__rfegyverek

[Teisani]

A few beautiful drawings by Italian artists from the 15th century of Ottoman/Byzantine people (and their sabres). Luckily in high resolution :). This kind of artwork really tickles my fancy :D.

1 - Sketches of the Emperor John VIII Palaeologus, a monk, and a sabre - by Pisanello in 1438:

Source: https://www.artic.edu/artworks/113568/sketches-of-the-emperor-john-viii-palaeologus-a-monk-and-a-scabbard?q=Pisanello
I highly recommend studying the high-resolution version in the link.

PS: There is also a depiction of a bow and quiver here (https://www.artic.edu/artworks/113569/bowcase-and-quiver-of-arrows) and another depiction of John VIII Palaiologos (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sketches_of_John_VIII_Palaiologos_during_his_ visit_at_the_council_of_Florence_in_1438_by_Pisane llo.jpg). Although not really relevant to this discussion, still nice.

[Teisani]

2 - Ottoman janissary by Gentile Bellini 1479 - 1481 (probably at Constantinople).

Source: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_Pp-1-19

[Teisani]

3 - Ippolito de' Medici in Hungarian costume by Tiziano Vecellio in 1533.
Source: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritratto_di_Ippolito_de%27_Medici & https://gallerix.org/album/Titian/pic/glrx-323132363
I know I posted this one before, but it's worth posting a close-up of that sabre.

[Teisani]

Some more period depictions:

4 - Battle of Orsha/Bitwa pod Orszą - probably by a painter from the circle of Lukas Cranach the Elder, most likely Hans Krell in 1525 - 1535.

Of course I posted this one, I'm only human..couldn't resist! The famous painting depicting the battle of Orsha from 1514. It's a real treasure for anyone interested in that period/region's weapons.
Nice summary about it can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwHcl8y2fk

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orsha_(painting)#/media/File:Autor_nieznany_(malarz_z_kr%C4%99gu_Lukasa_Cr anacha_Starszego),_Bitwa_pod_Orsz%C4%85.jpg

The painting is much too big and detailed to post in low resolution here, so instead here are some close-ups.

Muscovites

[Teisani]

Polish & Lithuanians

[Teisani]

5 - The great triumphal chariot, detail: The Hungarian trophy by Albrecht Dürer, 1518 original.

Detailed design for the woodcut sequence of imperial triumphal procession Maximilian I, printed in its entirety for the first time in 1526, Dürer was responsible for the design of the carriage with the marriage of Emperor Maximilian to Mary of Burgundy and published it in 1522 in eight sheets.

Source: http://www.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/B/D%C3%BCrer,+Albrecht%3A+Der+gro%C3%9Fe+Triumphwage n,+Detail%3A+Die+ungarische+Troph%C3%A4e?hl=ungari sche

Not very detailed, but every source helps.

[Teisani]

6 - Nikola IV Zrinski (Hungarian: Szigeti Zrínyi Miklós; 1508–1566), Ban of Croatia from 1542 until 1556.

Source: Leónidasz a végvidéken. Zrínyi Miklós (1508-1566) by Varga Szabolcs

Note: I've posted this one before, but this one's in higher quality.

Source: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanulmanyok-zrinyi-szablyak.html
The sabre resides at the Museum of Fine Arts in Vienna (Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien), Austria. According to Prof. dr. Major General József Padányi, the likely year - with the dragon coat of arms of the Zrínyis on the grip caps - is 1563. At that time, Miklós Zrínyi was at the height of his power, and at the coronation of Maximilian II (King of Hungary September 8, 1563 - 12 October 1576), the saber could have been a gift from Zrínyi, who carried the state apple, as a souvenir. A painting was also made of this event, proving the above.

The previous posted source dates the painting to 1541-42. So, it's a bit confusing.

[Teisani]

7 - "Gothic" sabre (1470?-1520?) at the Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum Budapest

This is probably the oldest Hungarian sabre known. It also has the earliest depiction of a hussar, on the scabbard. Most likely originaly Ottoman sabre (from 1470-1500?), later (probably during the 1510s) its scabbard was modified to incorporate the hussar depiction. Another reason to classify this as Hungarian rather than Ottoman is the representation of Adam & Eve on the scabbard. So not much is known about this one. The best source of info on this one, I've found is "SZABLYÁK A KÉSŐ KÖZÉPKORI MAGYARORSZÁGON by KOVÁCS S. Tibor" https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/view/FoliaArchaeologica_54/?pg=270&layout=s

There are a few other ottoman swords with similar hilts around the world (Turkey, Russia, and USA).

[Teisani]

8 - Szikszó sabre

Discovered in Szikszó, Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén county, Hungary. Currently resides at the Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum, Budapest. Can find no other info on it.

https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/katalogus/xvi-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/hadi-viselet/fegyverek/koezelharci-fegyverek/kardok/szablyak/szablya-szikszo

[Teisani]

9 - Bebek György sabre

Bebek György (lived 1529-1567), became a prisoner of the Ottomans in 1562 but was released in 1565 from captivity and given this sabre by sultan Suleiman I the Magnificent.

For his own salvation, György Bebek secretly offered Hally Pasha, who had contact with the Luminous Padisah, 50 Turkish prisoners, 10 thousand gold ducats, and many silver and gold adornments, which his worried wife, Mistress Zsófia Patócsy, sent to the Porta in Stambul. As a result of this "carrot", George Bebek was led from his place of detention to the Divan, the highest political center of the Ottoman Empire, on March 6, 1565. He was dressed in an expensive kaftan so that he could pay homage to the Sultan in a dignified manner. Bebek kissed the hand of Suleiman I, who sternly urged him to be a supporter of his Hungarian vassal, John Sigismund, and served him afterwards. At Suleiman's behest, the court officials brought forth a splendid Arabian thoroughbred, which was surrounded by a shiny, expensive horse tool. Other pashas gave him another four horses. In order not to go home as a beggar, bags of money were placed in the pockets of his robes, totalling 10 thousand ospora (aka acpe, Turkish silver coins). Among the gifts was handed over a superb saber, the main character of this article.
The blade has an inscription: Amel-i Mohammed Misri (the work of Mohammed of Egypt)
Total Length: 94cm
Blade width: 3.3cm
Weight with scabbard: 2kg

Source: https://www.szadvar.hu/2021/07/bebek-gyorgy-szablyaja/

[Teisani]

9 - Bebek György sabre (continued)

Personal opinion...Bebek's sabre seems to be a typical (my estimates 1540s to 1590s) boot hilt, with wire wrap, long quillons (about same length as the handle). Yet it was a gift from the Sultan. The question is whether:
- the Sultan had craftsmen that could make Hungarian style hilts.
- it was a looted by the Ottomans, later gifted to Bebek.
- the sabre's original hilt and scabbard was changed later between the 1565 (release date) and 1567 (year of death). My opinion no likely but who knows.

Really interesting... Bebek's sabre looks very, very similar to this sabre in Sultan Mehmed IV (1642 – 1693) portrait in 1682. I really wonder if this painting is authentic (no idea if yes or no), or why would the Sultan be wearing a Hungarian sabre, 100 years out of date. Really strange! Anybody else have any idea/opinions about this painting?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_IV#/media/File:Sultan_Mehmed_IV_(2).jpg

[Teisani]

10 - Knyaz (prince) Fyodor Mikhailovich Mstislavsky (? - 1540)

This one is a Muskovite sabre, reminescent a bit of some sabres depicted in the "Battle of Orsha" painting. On the blade's spine there is the incription "Сабля Князь Федора Михайловича Мстиславскаго/Saber of Prince Fyodor Mikhailovich Mstislavsky". The blade is made by "Abdul-Ali Qasim from Egypt". Looks like a typical Ottoman sabre of the era, except for the flat end-cap.
Total length: 102cm --- Blade length: 86.36cm --- Blade width: 5.65cm (8cm at the yelman) --- Thickness: 0.8-1cm --- Quillon: 22cm --- Languettes: 10cm --- Weight with scabbard: 2.6kg
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Мстиславский,_Фёдор_Михайлович
https://pikabu.ru/story/istinno_bogatyirskaya_sablya_knyazya_mstislavskogo _4919872
https://mayak-parnasa.livejournal.com/1227109.html

[Teisani]

11 - Two more Muscovy sabres? They look a bit like some of the sabres in the "Battle of Orsha painting".

[Teisani]

12 - Ottoman/Mamluk sabre (probably from early or mid 16th century??).. It's hilt is reminiscent of some sabres depicted in some portraits, like Jan Zamoyski's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Zamoyski#/media/File:Jan_Zamoyski.PNG) & Jan Daniłowicz's(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Dani%C5%82owicz#/media/File:Jan_Dani%C5%82owicz_(voivode_of_Ruthenia).PNG ). Portraits also posted above.

The blade is very similar in nature to a group of 15th-century blades which have been housed in the imperial armoury in Istanbul for centuries, which are all identified as being Mamluk in origin. These swords would have been brought back to the capital city by Ottoman forces after they had battled the Mamluk armies in Syria and Egypt during the late 15th and early 16th centuries, ultimately defeating them at Ridanieh in 1517. (See U. Yucel, Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths (Istanbul, U.I.C. Research Centre for Islamic History, Art and Culture, 2001), pp.93-113 for various published examples from this group of slightly curved swords with blades of Mamluk provenance and hilts attached later by Ottoman craftsmen, all part of the collection held in Topkapi Palace.) The blades were later remounted with a variety of different hilt forms by Ottoman craftsmen. It is likely that this sword received the same treatment and was refitted with furniture made to appeal to Turkish taste. The foliate ornamentation on the metal fittings is typical of the style present on many of the weapons and objects of decorative art emerging from the workshops of the Ottoman court during the 16th century. The empty indentations visible on the mounts would probably have housed precious or semi-precious stones. The hilt, scabbard clasps and chape closely resemble another set attached to one of the sacred swords in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul which is said to have been associated with 'Abu'l Hasene (Abu Hasan), scribe of the Prophet of God’, and is thought to have been remounted by court craftsmen around 1560. The hilt form with its long spatulate quillons is similar to others produced and illustrated during the reign of Suleiman I (Suleiman the Magnificent), Sultan of the Ottoman Empire 1520-1566. (See Ricketts and Missillier, 'Splendeur Des Armes Orientales' (Paris: Acte-Expo, 1988), p.157.)

Blade Length 817 mm
Scabbard Length 830 mm
Scabbard Weight 0.457 kg
Sword Length 960 mm
Sword Weight 1.154 kg

Source:https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-31132

[Teisani]

13 - Tomb effigy of Balassa Menyhért/Melchior Balassa (1511-1568) - in the church of Sološnica, Slovakia.

Inscription on the tomb says:
To the famous and important hero Melchior Balassi of Gyarmat, enlightened to advice, magnanimous in faithfulness to his promise, he had this monument built by his father, highly esteemed, son Štefan Balassi. He died in Vienna in the year of Christ the Lord 1568, in the month 9. At the age of 57 years.

Nice triple fullered blade...no Ottoman blade for Melchior :D. Since it was his son that had the effigy made, we don't really know how much later after his death it was. About his son Štefan Balassi/Balassa István we know:

His second son, Stephen, freed from Báthori's captivity in 1570, became a supporter of King Maximilian, from whom he received several estates. He set up a printing house in Detrekő, where in 1584 the ecclesiastical sermons of Peter Bornemisza began to be printed. John B. became famous at a young age for his duel with the Spanish valiant Francesco de Lasso, in which he defeated his powerful and boastful opponent. In 1550 he became captain of Szolnok Castle, and in 1555 leader of the rising nobility and captain of the mining towns: in 1562 he was already the high sheriff of Hont and Zólyom counties, and as such he laid siege to the castle of Szécsény, but after receiving a wound on his hand, he abandoned the siege. In 1569, together with his relative István Dobó, he was tried for calling on János Sigismund Szapolyai to attack Maximilian. He was thrown into prison, from which he was freed. In 1572, he was pardoned by the intercession of the National Assembly, and in 1574 he became a royal chief doorman and an examiner of appellate cases. In 1575, the castle of Kékkő was occupied by the Turks. A year later, he died.

So, between 1570 (Istvan's release) and 1576 (István's death).

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balassa_Menyh%C3%A9rt
https://malackepohlady.sk/?p=1718
https://ujkor.hu/content/emberveres-nyuzas-fosztas-forras
https://malackepohlady.sk/?p=22263

[Teisani]

14 - Tomb effigy of Dobó István (1502 - 1572)

He died in 1572 at his home in Szerednye (a settlement located in present-day Transcarpathia, halfway between Uzhhorod and Munkács), and on 28 June his body was brought to Dobóruszka-HU/Ruská-SK (in the Košice Region of eastern Slovakia). The red-marble Renaissance sarcophagus made by his son Dobó Ferec around 1610. In the sanctuary of the church in Dobóruszka. The side panels of the tomb, which can still be seen here today, are original, but the famous cover is only a copy. The original marble tombstone cover can be seen today in the István Dobó Castle Museum in Eger, in the Heroes' Hall, complete with a copy of the side panels and a so-called "crab wolf" marble helmet that was later added to the tombstone. The following inscription can be read on it: "Here is the grave of István Dobó, who repulsed the thousands of armies of the Turks from the walls of Eger, and by an excellent triumph, he drove away the fate of Hungarian land. His son, Ferenc Dobó, claimed this memory to be truly worthy of national mourning." So, the effigy was made 52 years after his death! The photos are of the original.

Difficult to tell if the sabre depicted here has very-long quillons like the Zrinski/Bebek/Bathory sabres. One quillon is noticeably longer than the other (fragmented though).

PS: Don't worry, more dead guys to come!

Sources:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dob%C3%B3_Istv%C3%A1n_(katonatiszt)
https://cbc-artspace.com/locations/dobo-istvan-kultusz-hrob-istvana-doboa-pamatna-izba-istvana-doboa/

[Teisani]

14 - Tomb effigy of Thurzó György (1567 - 1616)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Thurz%C3%B3_Gy%C3%B6rgy_s%C3%ADreml%C3%A9k.jpg

Also, a mortuary portret, but it says it's from 1621??: https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Thurz%C3%B3_Gy%C3%B6rgy_a_ravatalon,_162 1.jpg

[Teisani]

Wonder what kind of sabre he had :eek: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Gregor_Baci.jpg

[Teisani]

15 - Tomb of Apaffy György (died in 1635 but the effigy was made in 1660-61), Church of Gyulafehérvár/Alba Iulia, Transylvania, Romania

Unfortunately the sabre on the effigy is heavily damaged, and the photos I found were not very helpful. So this one is just for info.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/hu/3/31/Apaffi_Gy%C3%B6rgy_s%C3%ADreml%C3%A9k%C3%A9nek_fed %C5%91lapja%2C_1660.png

https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Apaffi_Gy%C3%B6rgy_s%C3%ADreml%C3%A9k%C3 %A9nek_fed%C5%91lapja,_1660.png

[Teisani]

16 - Two effigies for Illésházy István

The first effigy was erected by Illésházy István himself, his first wife, Anna Erdődy died in 1577. He carved his image as well on the memorial stone because he thought he would rest in the same place where his beloved wife
who died at the age of 26. However, nine years after the death of the first woman, István, who was growing in power and wealth, remarried and married the wealthy Countess Katalin Pálffy, the widow of János Krussich. The Katalin survived her husband, who died in 1609, and burried him, not next to the first woman in Bratislava, but in Bazin.

Unfortunately, the sabres depicted are not very detailed.

Source: https://www.sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/abrazolasok/xvi-szazad/noi-viseletek/kiegeszitok-es-ekszerek/kiegeszitok/nyakfodrok/magyarorszag/nyakfodor-illeshazy-istvan-es-erdody-anna-emleke-pozsony

[Teisani]

17 - Tomb effigy of Thurzó Sanislo (1576-1625)

https://bagyinszki.eu/archives/5630

[Teisani]

18 - Illésházy Ferenc (circa 1660)
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyomanyesmultidezo/nyilvanos/abrazolasok/xvii-szazad/ferfi-viseletek/koeznapi-viselet/felsoruha/dolmanyok/dolmany-illeshazy-ferenc-szlovakia

[Teisani]

19 - Thököly Sebestyén coat of arms 1572

Note: the sabre looks like it has long quillons. Also, the scabbard has old style fitting (1572 indeed).

[Teisani]

20 - Illésházy Gáspár (1593 – 1648) in life and death.

Note: Rich guys can have more than one sabre.

https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/record/display/manifestation/oai-aggregated-bib5829918/1a3acbb6-2c62-4935-9bc5-cee3b03100d4/solr/0/24/0/2/score/DESC

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:G%C3%A1sp%C3%A1r_Ill%C3%A9sh%C3%A1zy#/media/File:Ill%C3%A9sh%C3%A1zy_G%C3%A1sp%C3%A1r.jpg

[Teisani]

Remark: this sabre looks remarkably like the "Gothic sabre" (see page 1 on thread), a bit too similar. And the brass hilt (not gold) rings alarm bells, blade has a nice shape though, I suspect re-hilt. Any opinions?

https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/auctions/lot/id/68147
The slightly curved, flat, single-edged blade with a broad, double-edged point. The obverse with the marks of the famous Ottoman arsenal in the former Hagia Irene (Aya Irini) church in Constantinople. The quillons and grip made of brass, slightly patinated. Length 90 cm. An extremely rare piece dating from the reign of the celebrated Sultan Suleiman I Kanuni (1520 – 1566) and his campaigns in Central Europe. In good condition. Condition: III +

[Teisani]

Nikola Zrisnki sabre mimics

There are a few sabres around that look like (Szigetvár) Zrisnki's sabre:

A - Pulszky sabre - beware of this one, it's actually a reproduction. Source: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanulmanyok-zrinyi-szablyak.html
The heroes of the anti-Turkish wars played an important role in the strengthening Hungarian national consciousness in the 19th century, among them Miklós Zrínyi, who died a heroic death at Szigetvár. It is probably due to this that Ferenc Pulszky made a copy of the Zrínyi saber kept in Vienna using a saber blade that came into his possession. The artefact was presented to the Hungarian National Museum by Ágoston Pulszky in 1898. The inventory diary of the time accurately reports on the details: "The blade originally belonged to Napoleon I, who, after the battle of Marengo, sent it as a gift to Melas, the leader of the Austrian armies at the time, accompanied by a letter. (The letter is in the possession of the Kassa museum.) Melas's wife damaged the scabbard of the sword, melted its gold, and gave the blade to Melas's adjutant, with whom she probably had a tender relationship. It came into the hands of Tettenborn from the adjutant, and Viczay won it from him for 100 gold. It was obtained from Viczay by Gábor Fehérváry, Ferenc Pulszky's uncle, from whom Pulszky inherited the sword. The scabbard and hilt of the sword are a faithful copy of the Zrínyi sword preserved in the collection of the Vienna court."

B - "Radsporn" sabre - not sure what to say about this one. The blade looks OK to me, but similarity to the Zrinski sabre, and the brass crossguard meakes me doubt this one. Any thoughts?
Source:https://www.lotsearch.de/lot/saebel-ungarisch-osmanischer-montierung-mit-scheide-um-1600-47392553 & https://www.barnebys.de/blog/ein-autogramm-des-roten-barons-in-der-landshuter

Single-edged blade with two narrow fullers and a stepped, double-edged point. Master's mark "Radsporn" embossed on the front next to the double inscription "IOHANNI". Cross-shaped, decorated quillons in brass. Leather grip, partly faceted. Curved pommel-cap, pointed oval and decorated. Underneath brass-framed perforation for a carrying strap. Brass decorative rivets. Old, professionally restored, leather-covered wooden scabbard, embossed with a wavy pattern on the front, reverse. smooth. Ornate brass fittings with carrying rings. The chape is decorated with edging on both sides in the lower third.

C - This one isn't really a mimic, but has some similarities, it's most likely an Ottoman sabre from the Topkapi Palace. Can't find any further info.

[Teisani]

21 - Hungarian sabre - Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum.

Interestingly, compared to most other sabres with long quillons, this one has a European blade. Can't find any other info on it.

[Teisani]

22 - Sabre of Nikola VII Zrinski (Hungarian: Zrínyi Miklós; 1620–1664), Ban of Croatia from 1647 until 1664. Bítov collection.

[Teisani]

I need some help. I am looking for a depiction on a Hungarian sabre with classic boot-hilt, in a medieval/renaissance manuscript, German I think, about firearms? fireworks?... I really don't remember. I remember seeing it many years ago online...but cannot find it anymore. Does this ring any bells to anyone?

[Interested Party]

I recently read Denis Toichkin's Sabers of Hetman Ivan Mazepa article from which this photo was taken of what he concludes to be a composite saber. Where does this particular hilt fit into the discussion? It seems to be classified as a Hussar Karabela hilt that Toichkin states was popular in the late 17th century with Cossack nobles. To me the angle of the hilt and thumb ring seem reminiscent of Central and Northern European Influence. Were these straighter hilted Karabelas common?

[Teisani]

To me the angle of the hilt and thumb ring seem reminiscent of Central and Northern European Influence. Were these straighter hilted Karabelas common?
Unfortunately, this is a type of sabre that I know very little about... but to my eyes it combines traits found in some Tatar? sabres and other East European sabres like the the karabela (and by extension some Ottoman sabres?).

East European and Ottoman traits:
1 the scabbard fittings are reminiscent of some on various sabres of Ottoman origin. See here...of course not identical but you see the resemblance. And definitely not tatar-like fittings. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sabre_images_from_Livrustkammaren#/media/File%3ASabel_-_karabela_-_Livrustkammaren_-_8917.tif

2 the cross guard is narrow and again, reminescent of Ottoman and East European sabres of the late 1600s - early 1700. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sabre_images_from_Livrustkammaren#/media/File%3ASabel_av_kilijtyp%2C_Istambul%2C_1600-tal%2C_klinga_och_f%C3%A4ste_ej_ursprungligen_samh %C3%B6rande_-_Livrustkammaren_-_51965.tif Note: the sabre in this picture is suspected of being one of Constantin Brancoveanu, Wallachian voivode based on the blade inscription

3 the thumb ring is where it departs Ottoman character and gains a Polish?? Maybe Ukrainian?? character.

Tatar traits:
4 the ray skin covering the handle.
5 the narrow, uniform curved, fuller-less, yelman-less blade.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Sabre_images_from_Livrust kammaren&filefrom=Sabel%2C+kilij%2C+turkiskt-persiskt+kulturområde%2C+1500-talets+slut+-+Livrustkammaren+-+9345.tif#/media/File%3ASabel%2C_Polen%2C_1600-talet_-_Livrustkammaren_-_17479.tif
Although the Poles also had something inspired by this https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabla_ormiańska

But the szabla ormianska is itself inspired by Tatar sabres.

In short, to me it looks like a heavily Tatar sabre inspired design with Polish features added...but again these are sabres of which I know very little about. One thing I will say is that I don't think calling it a karabela is very helpfull. Karabelas have very distinctive hilts, most of them don't even have a thumb ring...so what's the point of calling it a karabela.

[Interested Party]

The complete sword possibly being a 19th century composite I was mainly asking about the hilt. Which was identified as being late 17th century Ukranian. The straightness of the handle seemed odd to me as eastern sabers tented to have hilts with curves or angles. The quillons to me are Tartar/ central Asian influenced. Nice pick up on the Ray skin Teisani.

[awdaniec666]

Early Polish sabers tend to have a straight design in the hilt. They become more curved later on under the influence of Hungarian origin. Below one example. Also I would not classify the mentioned saber as a Karabela in todays terminology, since it lacks the eagle-head shape. Back in the days (17th century) Karabela seemed to describe every decorated saber but this is theory with very little evidence.

[awdaniec666]

21 - Hungarian sabre - Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum.

Interestingly, compared to most other sabres with long quillons, this one has a European blade. Can't find any other info on it.

This specimen looks exactly like the ones gifted by Bathory to the Saxon court. They can be still found in the Rüstkammer Dresden - possibly a museal loan?

[Teisani]

This specimen looks exactly like the ones gifted by Bathory to the Saxon court. They can be still found in the Rüstkammer Dresden - possibly a museal loan?

You mean Y0054 ( https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/284576 )? No, they're different sabers. But you're right they are similar. Didn't have time to post it together with the others unfortunately.

[Teisani]

One minor note. I thought Illésházy Ferenc's scabbard looked familiar...by chance, looking on SKD-online I found sabre Y0224 with a similar scabbard. OK, it's not identical, but pretty close. They're even both probably from the 1650-1660! :D Check the description.

No way do I think they're the same sabre... but same scabbard maker? Maybe.

https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/289059

[awdaniec666]

You mean Y0054 ( https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/284576 )? No, they're different sabers. But you're right they are similar. Didn't have time to post it together with the others unfortunately.

Different sabers of course, but the gift was a batch of these. I don´t think any of them was identical to another. But this question could be solved with a short email to the museum if somebody would be seriously interested.

P.S.: You´ve asked me about the origin of the stone sculputures with the Karabela(-ish) hilt within the PDF I shared. Did not forget this! :) It´s from an Epitaph by Paul Volckmer in the Hl. Sebald Church in Nürnberg from 1499.

[Teisani]

...but the gift was a batch of these.

P.S.: ... It´s from an Epitaph by Paul Volckamer in the Hl. Sebald Church in Nürnberg from 1499.
A batch? This is interesting. Looking at their website, I didn't find any other sabres looking exactly like this one.

P.S.: Thank you, and I found a nice photo of it here. My assumption is that it's a messer handle ( https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hand-and-a-half_hunting_sword,_workshop_of_Hans_Sumersperger_ of_Hall,_Tyrol,_c._1490-1500_-_Higgins_Armory_Museum_-_DSC05731.JPG and https://mobile.twitter.com/Aetas_Memoria/status/1189973100680622080 ), although it is highly curved... and the artist knew to put upper languettes on the cross-guard. Interestingly, the wearer has a turban on his head... so he's a turk. So the artist, to my eyes, is depicting an Ottoman sabre, but blending messer handle traits.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Volckamer_Epitaph_-_St._Sebald_church_-_Nuremberg,_Germany_-_DSC01960.jpg
https://wgue.smugmug.com/Orte/Franken/Nuernberg-Sebald/i-W6kkxcV

[Teisani]

And now for something completely different...
1 - For our viewing pleasure... antique sabres with Wojciech Zabłocki. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJrm7JP1DJA

2 - An interview with the man himself (not really relevant to our goal, but seems a shame not to mention) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QubvyHGbiIA

[Teisani]

23 - False Dmitry I - Tsar of Russia (1605-1606)
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Car_Dymitr_Samozwaniec.jpg

[Teisani]

Before Napoleon: the Early History of the Sabre in Europe - Russ Mitchell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QGc5MxbPbk or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs4hEGIN3qQ

[Teisani]

Nikola Zrisnki sabre mimics(continued from http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277898&postcount=38)

On second thought, not sure what to make of C. Found a bit more info on it here (http://keptar.uz.ua/html/kepoldal/index.phtml?id=40305). Personal opinion, the etching makes me think european blade, from the 1800s. Any input from others would be appreciated.
From the decorative work entitled Magyar Műkincsek, published by Köre of Műbarátok: Krasznahorka Castle, the place where the treasures of the Counts Andrássy are kept. Saber of the XVI. century.

[Teisani]

Hungarian military historical memorabilia at the millennial national exhibition (Szendrei, János - 1896 - Magyar hadtörténelmi emlékek az ezredéves országos kiállitáson. Kereskedelmi M. Kir. Minister, Budapest).
http://keptar.uz.ua/kereses/keres_cedulaelem.php?kulcsszo=kard
http://mek.oszk.hu/11800/11889/pdf/11889_1.pdf
http://mek.oszk.hu/11800/11889/pdf/11889_2.pdf

[Teisani]

24 - Sabre of Ferdinand I (born 10 March 1503 – died 25 July 1564) was:
- Archduke of Austria from 1521
- King of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia from 1526-1564,
- Holy Roman Emperor from 1556-1564

https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/record/oai-aggregated-bib5847482

The folowing is adapted from "TANULMÁNYOK ZRÍNYI - SZABLYÁK by KOVÁCS S. TIBOR − NÉGYESI LAJOS − PADÁNYI JÓZSEF
https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanulmanyok-zrinyi-szablyak.html
The replacement of the Turkish, acorn-shaped grip cap with a flat, crested cap is a Hungarian peculiarity. An illustrative example of this is the decorative saber in the Turkish style - made in 1514 - which also comes from the former collection of Archduke Ferdinánd II of Tyrol (b 1529 – d 1595, since 1564 Imperial count of Tirol), and not only the hilt cap, but also the cross iron was changed to the Hungarian form. The letters (IHS) can be seen on the front, while the monogram (I.F.) can be seen on the latter. Presumably, the saber is connected to the Hungarian king Ferdinand I (1526–1564), who may have received the saber from Hungarian lords on the occasion of some notable event, such as a coronation or other celebration. It was used not only for newly manufactured sabers, but also for looted or gifted Turkish weapons, replacing the original cap. In its development, not so much practicality as fashion may have played a role. The hilt cap of the Hungarian saber is a metal sleeve with a sole attached to the flat surface formed at the end of the wood covering of the handle, which is held in place by nails driven into the rim below the sole. It does not provide as much space for decorative elements as the metal components of the blade or the case, however, its great advantage is that the hilt cap of the saber hanging on the side of the warrior and hidden in its scabbard is clearly visible. The display of the coat of arms and monogram makes this small metal plate almost the owner's signature, in which we can see the successor of medieval helmet badges and shields with coats of arms, as well as medallions indicating armament. Functionally, it clearly served personal identification. Considering this, we can say that the coat of arms and monogram of the hilt cap must always indicate the owner of the sword. In the case of an inherited, purchased or looted weapon, it would cause misunderstanding if the new owner kept the original cap plate, so he most likely replaced it with his own. century, since, for example, the Bebek coat of arms and the monogram G B, i.e. Georgius Bebek, were engraved in the hilt cap of the gilded silver-mounted Hungarian saber of Zrínyi's contemporary, lord György Bebek (†1567). The saber also has an oriental blade, in which the Arab swordsmith also engraved his name, according to which the piece was made by the Egyptian Muhammad.

Note: The acorn-cap to flat-cap change refered to are ilustrated in this picture from" TÖRÖK HATÁS A MAGYAR FEGYVEREKEN A 15-17. SZÁZADBAN by KOVÁCS S. Tibor"

[Teisani]

25 - Tomb effigy of Serédy György (†1557) at St. Egidius/Sz. Egyed Church in Bártfán/Bardejov, Slovakia.

Immediately after Serédy's death, his widow, Katalin Byczynski, had it installed. The material is variegated marble with a reddish base tone. It was originally used as a lid for a stone coffin; this was dismantled in the 18th century. Parts of its sides are walled up in various places of the Sz. Egyed church, and partly used for altar tables. The inscription engraved on both sides of the stone slab: MAGNIFICVS DOMINVS GEORGIVS DE SERED OBIIT DIE 23 MENSIS APRILIS ANNO D[OMI]NI 1557.
From "Memory from the past, display for the future - early modern funeral monuments from the Transylvanian principlality by Dora Merai" we learn that it "was commissioned from Hieronymus Canavesi in Cracow by Katarzyna Buczynska de Olszyn, who also came from Poland".

Katarzyna Buczyńska remarried in 1558 with Olbracht Łaski, the heir of Kežmarok and extensive estates in Hungary and Spisz, later the starost of Spiš (recorded in 1581). She died in 1581. (Aedifico et Conservo. Eskalacja jakości kształcenia zawodowego w Polsce. Kontynuacja edycji projektu z l. 2010-2011)

https://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Ser%C3%A9dy_Gy%C3%B6rgy_(_-1557)_s%C3%ADreml%C3%A9ke.jpg
https://m.facebook.com/hazajaro/photos/a.524197537690057/524197621023382/
http://mek.oszk.hu/09100/09175/html/39.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=86878&postcount=13

Note: Seredy Gyorgy's sabre seems to have the same cropped acorn-cap as Ferdinand's sabre and this one at the Museo delle Arti Marziali, Brescia in Italy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcXlasRbkm8). They both seem to be modified Ottoman hilts (notice the faceted hilt, meaning octogonal or hexagonal cross-section of the handles), with long quillons.

[Teisani]

No sabres, but too good to ignore. Battle scene depiction on Szapolyai János Zsigmond's sarcophagus from 1571 in Alba Iulia/Gyulafehérvár Transylvania, Romania.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gyulafeh%C3%A9rv%C3%A1r,_Szent_Mih%C3%A1ly_Sz %C3%A9kesegyh%C3%A1z_-_J%C3%A1nos_Zsigmond_szarkof%C3%A1gja_-_panoramio.jpg

[Teisani]

A closer look of that Epitaph by Paul Volckamer in Sebald Church in Nürnberg from 1499. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=278146&postcount=50)

[Teisani]

6bis - Nikola IV Zrinski (Hungarian: Szigeti Zrínyi Miklós; 1508–1566), Ban of Croatia from 1542 until 1556. Continued

The following is a partial translation of "TANULMÁNYOK ZRÍNYI-SZABLYÁK KOVÁCS S. TIBOR − NÉGYESI LAJOS − PADÁNYI JÓZSEF". I used Google translate, it wasn't easy but the final result is reasonable. And a few more photos of the sabre.

STUDIES - ZRÍNYI SABERS by TIBOR S. KOVÁCS − LAJOS NÉGYESI − JÓZSEF PADÁNYI

The Government of Hungary declared 2016 the "Miklós Zrínyi - Szigetvár 1566" commemorative year. The decision on this says the following: "...articulating the respect of all Hungarians towards the castle captain Miklós Zrínyi and the exemplary standing, patriotism and community of the heroes of Szigetvár, expressing the nation's commitment to learning about and nurturing the life, legacy and deeds of Miklós Zrínyi, it aims that the history, message and glory of the siege of Szigetvár become widely known and serve as an example in both the social and economic life of the nation...". In our article, we examine a prominent piece of the Zrínyi tradition, the saber of the Szigetvár hero Miklós Zrínyi (1508−1566) kept in Vienna, as well as two other ornamental weapons connected to it and their cult.

Older literature on the Vienna saber.

During the cultural history of mankind, the sword has become the most symbolic of all weapons. The production of the long metal blade required serious craftsmanship and high-quality materials, which significantly increased its value. Its use required skill and thorough training from the soldier, so wearing it meant rank, and from the very beginning, as a symbol, it was associated with valor and the excellent warrior. This alone would be enough to be an expression of the heroism displayed by the actions of Miklós Zrínyi in the Croatian-Slavonic and then in Szigetvár and Transdanubian captains. However, in Sámuel Budina's chronicle, he emphasizes the role of Zrínyi's saber in the outburst at the beginning of September 1566: "he ordered his butler to hand him his sickle-shaped curved swords. These are decorated with gold and silver and are called sabers. After trying them one by one, he selected one of the four, which was still his father's, and said: 'Of my old swords, this is the one with which I earned the first glory and honor, with which I gained all that I have. With this sword in my hand, I now want to endure everything that God's judgment has imposed on me.' So he left his house, holding his sword in his right hand, and ordered that his round shield be brought after him. On top of that, he didn't want to wear any other weaponry, neither armor nor helmet."

The two spikes (languettes) together are 12 ctm. and the cross iron (cross-guard) is embellished with an arabesque decoration engraved in this place. It is more angular towards the ends of the crossbar. The wood of the very weakly bent, almost straight handle is covered with linen and above that with brown silk and pierced in two places. The edges of these holes are trimmed with silver buttercups. The sword cord was strung through these two holes. The coat of arms of the Zrínyi family is engraved on the cap of the silver handle, on which it is interesting that, unlike the previously known coats of arms, the helmet ornament is a rising dragon with a crown. Around the crest are engraved N C de Z (Nicolaus Comes de Zerin) and 1567. The wooden sheath has a cut end and gilded silver sockets. The slider is 5.5 ctm. large and decorated with artistic arabesque engravings on both sides. The sheath covered with linen and black velvet has four carrying rings. The blade is 83 ctm. long and 3.7 cm. wide, handle 11 cm. Cross iron 22 ctm. It weighs 1 kilo 700 grams. Its shape is pure Hungarian, like the quality of the 16th century. and XVII. century, it was generally fashionable here and in Poland. According to tradition, this sword belonged to Miklós Zrínyi, and as such it is one of our most precious relics of military history. However, if only the coat of arms engraved at the end of the handle was the guiding principle in this part, we may have doubts, because we see the year 1567 engraved there. Miklós Zrínyi fell at Szigetvár in 1566, and thus the coat of arms was engraved on this sword a year later, when it belonged to another member of the family." János Utóbb Kalmár, the renowned weapons historian, dealt with the Zrínyi saber in several of his works. He presented the relic attributed to Miklós Zrínyi in the most detailed way in his paper published in 1965. "The saber has a weakly curved blade and is equipped with a long-mouthed blade. Straight, long cross iron with a flanged button at the end. The total length of the cross iron legs is 22 cm. The length of the languettes decorated with arabesques is 12 cm. Straight, the handle is covered with linen and brown silk on top, pierced in two places for the wrist cord. These openings are framed with a cast silver buckle... The sheath is covered with black velvet, fitted with three-part straps and a straight-cut shoe strap. It is decorated with artistic arabesques engraved on both sides of its sash." In addition to János Kalmár, a communication by Ferenc Csillag is also worth mentioning, in which he briefly describes the characteristics of the Hungarian saber, and also mentions the Zrínyi saber as an example, about which he does not make any new findings, but only takes over the text quoted above from the catalog of the Millennium National Exhibition, without any other comments.

Attempts to recover the Zrínyi saber

Attempts were made to recover the Zrínyi saber after the dissolution of the Monarchy, when Hungary made significant efforts to bring home the items previously sent to Vienna. The Hungarian-Austrian negotiations continued for more than ten years, but none of the memorabilia associated with Zrínyi was recovered. The legal basis for the negotiations was the Trianon Peace Treaty, where Article 177 stated: "Regarding those objects or documents of artistic, archaeological, scientific or historical importance that previously belonged to the collections of the Government of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy or the Crown, with respect to them, if other provisions of this Agreement do not contain any measures regarding them, Hungary undertakes to:

a) will enter into a friendly agreement with the interested States, if they call him to do so, according to which all parts of the above collections and all the objects or documents indicated above, which constitute the intellectual property of the said States, can be returned to the country of origin on the basis of reciprocity give;

b) for a period of twenty years, he will not alienate or distribute anything from these collections, nor dispose of the individual objects in any other way, unless a separate agreement is reached in this regard before the expiration of the deadline; will ensure the safety and good maintenance of the collections and will make them, as well as the inventories, lists and administrative documents relating to them, available to scientific researchers who are nationals of any of the Allied and Associated Powers.

However, Hungary will also have the right to call on the aforementioned States, and especially Austria, to conclude the necessary agreements with it in a manner similar to the previous ones, with the aim of bringing back to Hungary the above-mentioned collections, documents and objects, for which point b) above applies as collateral they will win.” The difficulties of the negotiations are highlighted by the document dated October 3, 1927, in which Elemér Varjú, head of the History Department of the Hungarian National Museum, and private university teacher Zoltán Tóth report on their course to Elek Petrovics, director of the Museum of Fine Arts. This shows that the Austrian side was on the one hand taking time, and on the other hand, trying to limit the handover to less valuable items. In the case of objects linked to Zrínyi, the Austrians argued that the Yugoslav state could also claim them due to their Croatian origin. The Hungarian side would even have been willing to hand over to the Serbs the flag and other objects captured from the Serbian insurgents in 1848, kept in the Hungarian National Museum, in return - winning the goodwill and agreement of the Serbian government. At the same time, the document also describes with raw honesty: that, despite all Hungarian efforts, they see that "we will not be able to bring Miklós Zrínyi's weapons home..." That's how it happened, the saber and other material relics connected to Zrínyi remained in Vienna.

The National Public Service University, the legal successor of the Zrínyi Miklós University of National Defense, one of the custodians of the Zrínyi traditions, organized a group of experts to renew research related to the Zrínyi saber in connection with the jubilee commemorative year. During this process, with the help of the Hungarian Embassy in Vienna, we requested permission to conduct an on-site examination of the weapon in the collection of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, during which we recorded our findings about its condition and the exact dimensions of the artifact. According to our opinion, the saber - in agreement with Wendelin Boeheim's statement - was made sometime before the middle of the 16th century. It is Ottoman-Turkish in type and form, but as we will see later - with the exception of the blade and the grip assembly - it is not an Eastern work. The polygonal, gilded silver cross-shaped iron ball ends. The curved handle spikes are very characteristic, with a six-petalled flower in the middle - only on one side - framed by arabesques on a dotted base. The rather poorly preserved wooden handle was covered with canvas and then with thin leather. There is a hole directly above the grip spike, followed immediately by two gilded silver grip fixing rivet heads, embellished with palmettes and lobed leaf motifs. Contrary to the previous descriptions, however, we emphasize that these are purely decorative elements, and not covers for the holes for threading the wrist cord, because the handle of the beaters is not drilled through. At the very end of the hilt is a small bump that serves to support the hand – at home on Ottoman-Turkish sabers – and above it is the hilt cap, which has been changed to the Hungarian form. The heptagonal grip cap, which runs to the top and is fixed with rivets on the sides, bears the Zrínyi coat of arms, monogram and the year of manufacture. We will deal with the hilt cap in detail later, but it is also necessary to mention here that its shape is a hallmark of the Hungarian saber developed in the middle of the 16th century. The smooth, curved blade made of damascus is believed to be of Ottoman-Turkish manufacture, which ends in a powerful blade slightly protruding from the curve of the back of the blade. The wooden sheath is covered with black leather applied to a canvas base and gilded silver studs. Underneath the extremely simple mouthpiece, there are two straps decorated with flowers and tendrils. The square-shaped, also gilded silver shoe strap has a long edge, which is closed by the already mentioned three-parted vein. The front and side plates of the saruveret are decorated with arabesques on a punched base, while the back side is decorated in the same way as the cross iron.

The saber also comes with a leather sword belt, which has buckles decorated with gilt silver arabesques and belt dividing gourds. Despite the shape and the Turkish blade, in our opinion, the saber is not Turkish, but Hungarian work. Turkish sabers made around the middle of the 16th century are embellished with hammered and uncast hilts, which at that time were mostly decorated with sedge leaves and lotus flowers instead of arabesques. The Zrínyi saber was modified in 1563, its acorn-shaped handle cap was replaced with a Hungarian one, which can be inferred from the different gilding of the saber. The replacement of the Turkish, acorn-shaped grip cap with a flat, crested cap is a Hungarian peculiarity. An illustrative example of this is the Turkish-style decorative saber - made in 1514 - which is also Tirol II. It comes from the former collection of Archduke Ferdinand, and not only the grip cap, but also the cross iron was changed to a Hungarian shape. The letters (IHS) can be seen on the front, while the monogram (I.F.) can be seen on the latter. Presumably, the saber is connected to the Hungarian king Ferdinand I (1526–1564), who may have received the saber from Hungarian lords on the occasion of some notable event, such as a coronation or other celebration. It was used not only for newly manufactured sabers, but also for looted or gifted Turkish weapons, replacing the original cap. In its development, not so much practicality as fashion may have played a role. The hilt cap of the Hungarian saber is a metal sleeve with a sole attached to the flat surface formed at the end of the wood covering of the handle, which is held in place by nails driven into the rim below the sole. It does not provide as much space for decorative elements as the metal components of the blade or the case, however, its great advantage is that the hilt cap of the saber hanging on the side of the warrior and hidden in its scabbard is clearly visible. The display of the coat of arms and monogram makes this small metal plate almost the owner's signature, in which we can see the successor of medieval helmet badges and shields with coats of arms, as well as medallions indicating armament. Functionally, it clearly served personal identification. Considering this, we can say that the coat of arms and monogram of the hilt cap must always indicate the owner of the sword. With an inherited, purchased, or looted gun, it would cause confusion if the new owner kept the original cap plate, so he most likely replaced it with his own. As we have seen, the coat of arms, monogram and year engraved in the hilt cap of the Zrínyi saber are not unique in the 16th century, since, for example, the Bebek coat of arms and the monogram G B, i.e. Georgius Bebek, were engraved in the hilt cap of the gilded silver-mounted Hungarian saber of Zrínyi's contemporary, lord György Bebek. The saber also has an oriental blade, in which the Arab swordsmith also engraved his name, according to which the piece was made by the Egyptian Muhammad.

Engraving of the grip cap

The engraved grip cap is not unique. In Dresden, in the former armory of the Saxon electors, a number of Hungarian weapons from the 16th and 17th centuries, including several sabers, are kept. A coat of arms depicting a bird and a crab, the NIF monogram, and the year 1569 were engraved into the grip cap of one of the very good parallels of the Bebek saber. Also, two stars and a coat of arms depicting an arm holding a mace were carved into the grip cap of another gilded silver-mounted Hungarian saber from the Dresden Armory, made at the end of the 16th century. In 1602, as a gift from Emperor Rudolf II, a magnificent Hungarian saber with gilded silver, ordered by the Turks or captured by them, was added to the previous collection, with a Koranic quote engraved in Arabic script. As we saw during the examination of the previous sabers, in the course of the 16th century, in the case of Hungarian lord sabers, it was sometimes customary to engrave the coat of arms, or coat of arms and monogram, or coat of arms, monogram, and the year in the hilt caps. During the excavation of the crypt of the Reformed Church in Csengeri, a saber with a coat-of-arms hilt cap was also found. "The image of the coat of arms is a hand holding three separated arrows with a bent arm, the tip of the middle arrow upwards, and scattered next to it we can also find the year of the saber's manufacture, the year 1575 in a very worn state, the last number can hardly be made out. Below the coat of arms, the letter I о V and further V о are stamped.” All this confirms that the coat of arms, monogram and year engraved in the Zrínyi saber can be considered contemporary and authentic. In the later centuries, it was not unusual to engrave a noble coat of arms into the hilt cap of Hungarian sabers. A very late example of this practice is the silver saber received by Count Ferenc Haller from the Hungarian Royal Bodyguard in 1842, whose hilt cap had a seal ring with the Haller coat of arms built directly into the hilt cap by the careful maker. The engraving of the hilt cap of the Zrínyi saber contains three important elements. These are: the Zrínyi coat of arms, the monogram and the year. The studies dealing with the saber give a uniform description of the coat of arms, which is due to the fact that this is the largest representation on the cap and can be easily recognized and compared with the known coats of arms of the family. Four different versions of this are included in Siebmacher's Wappenbuch, and Attila Szemán gave a detailed analysis of these in connection with the depictions of the Zrínyiérmek. Officially, until 1554, when the Csaktornya estate was acquired, gold or black eagle wings could appear in the coat of arms, after which the castle wall and the tower appear on the left side of the split coat of arms, with a six-pointed star floating on either side. On April 15, 1554, King Ferdinand I allowed Count Miklós Zrínyi (IV) to add the coat of arms of the extinct Ernuszth family from Csáktornya to his family coat of arms. This expanded coat of arms is already visible on the grip caps. Another reason for the difference between the versions of the coat of arms is that both the right-facing, rising dragon and the right-facing crowned eagle with extended wings appear as helmet decorations. As we explained earlier, the coat of arms and monogram of the grip cap clearly indicate the identity of the owner. Taking this into account, the closest functionally is the ring seal, which serves to authenticate letters and other documents and also contains the coat of arms and monogram. Looking at the Zrínyi letters in the Nádasdy archive of the National Archives of the Hungarian National Archives, a letter dated April 29, 1556 still shows the eagle-winged coat of arms with a rising dragon helmet ornament, and only on June 24 does the split coat-of-arms shield with the castle wall, tower, stars, extended wings appear crowned eagle with helmet decoration. Despite the fact that Miklós Zrínyi would have been entitled to use the extended coat of arms as early as 1554, he did not feel the need to have a new ring seal made for nearly two years. From the fact that the helmet decoration on the new coat of arms has also changed, we could conclude that the dragon is no longer used, however, on the coat of arms of the hilt cap, we can see the rising dragon above the split shield. Based on this, we should date the saber between 1554 and 1556, assuming that the maker only updated the shield in the previous coat of arms image with a dragon, and thus displays a transitional state. However, this attractive solution is clearly refuted by the year 1563 on the handle cap. The possibility of the use of helmet decorations may arise, however, taking into account the strict rules for the editing of coats of arms, we can rule out that the helmet decorations were changed for no particular purpose. All elements of the coats of arms are linked to the possessing family, they are symbols of properties and events related to them. The dragon symbolizing evil on the Hungarian coats of arms refers to Saint George, in this case the symbol of the fight against paganism. The eagle is the king of birds and thus represents dominion over territory. The change seen in ring seals fits into this symbolism. The acquisition of the Csaktornya estate is indicated by the appearance of the eagle. On the other hand, the saber made later has the dragon symbolizing warrior virtues. There were misunderstandings in the interpretation of the letters and numbers on the grip caps.

As mentioned, János Szendrei thought he recognized the letters N. C. de Z. and the year 1567. Since in his work he described the parameters of the saber in detail and also provided a drawing of the grip cap, we can rightly assume that he took the weapon in hand and performed the tests personally. Somewhat confusingly, he described the rivet holes on the grip studded with silver rosettes as holes for attaching the grip cord. If he had tried to stick a thin stick through them, he could easily have been convinced that they were not. The letters N and C are clearly recognizable on the right side of the (heraldic) coat of arms, but the group of letters on the left side is more problematic. You could read the letters P that merge into each other as "de", and the character next to it can be either 3 or Z. Since we are looking for Zrínyi's name from the beginning, we may be inclined to read Z instead, but thus the 1 and 5 on the right side , and on the left side, after the number 6, one more number is needed to make the year complete, so the stroke next to the number 6 may give the possibility to interpret it as the number 7. János Kalmár suggested a different reading. For the letters N and C on the right side, reading the 1 above them as I, he assumed the monogram N I C, on the left side he recognized the letters PP in the group of letters previously read as "de", but the 3 next to them is still Z interpreted as , and the resulting NIC. C. PP. The monogram Z was deciphered as the text NICOLAUS COMES PERPETUUS de ZERIN (Miklós, hereditary captain of Zerin Castle). This text appears as a signature on several of Zrínyi's letters, so Kalmár was probably looking for an abbreviation of it in the letters from the beginning. He accepted 1567 as the year of creation. This solution raises several questions. The characters on the right side can be read as NIC, but then the 1 disappears from the year. If the 3 on the left side is still read as Z, 56 of the easily identifiable characters of the year remain, which, taking into account the "transitional" nature of the coat of arms - described earlier - would allow a justifiable dating of 1556. On the other hand, there are two Cs in the monogram that is believed to be recognizable, but there is only one on the grip caps, which is a disturbing shortcoming. Overall, Kalmár's thought process is an improvement compared to Szendrei's description, since he tried to draw the abbreviated form of the name found in Zrínyi's signatures onto the characters of the grip cap and thereby announced the good solution, but he interpreted the characters in Russian, depriving himself of reading the year of manufacture. As he continued to accept the previous dating of 1567, he linked the saber to György Zrínyi, just like the red marble tombstone found in Szent Ilona, which shows a similar saber. Despite the novelty of this finding, it was not accepted, in professional circles the saber and the tombstone are still associated with the person of Miklós Zrínyi. The catalog of the Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum and the work of one of the authors of this study published in 2010 on hussar weapons also consider it to be the saber of Miklós Zrínyi, although the Austrian catalog gives 1562 as the year of manufacture, and the letters of the monogram are given in the form N.C.H.Z. The method used by János Kalmár and the identification of the initials of Miklós Zrínyi's signature (name and address) that appear in the letters of the handle cap can provide a solution to the interpretation of the characters on the handle cap. On his ring seal used from June 1556, in addition to the new coat of arms, the previous monogram N (Nicolai) S (Seryn) is not read, but N on the upper right, PP below, C on the left, and Z below. His release was based on the signature in his letter to Nádasdy on June 24, 1556: Nicolaus comes perpetuus de Zrinio. Based on the seal and the signature, the order of the words can be disputed, or more precisely, varied. In the signature on the letter, the words are placed in two lines, one below the other. In the top row Nicolaus perpetuus, below comes de Zrinio. Taking into account the seal, when deciphering the monogram, first read the upper right, upper left, then lower right and lower left letters in order (N. C. PP. Z.). This would assume, in the case of the signature, that we would first read the first word of the top line, then the one below it, then diagonally the second word of the top line, and then the second word of the bottom line. The signature reads Nicolaus perpetuus comes de Zrinio. In the case of the seal, this would mean that we first read the characters on the right and then on the left side, both times first the one above and then the one below. The order that can be read based on the characters on the grip cap is as follows: on the right side you can see the letters N.C., and above it the number 1 of the year. On the left side, in the case of PP characters, the right stem is drawn through with a horizontal line, the right end of which breaks downwards at a right angle. The stem of the left P joins the horizontal one and thus forms a horizontal Z. With this we found the N. C. PP. Z. monogram, which allows us to see 1 above the letters on the right side, 5 above the dragon's neck, 6 above the dragon's wings on the left side, and 3 after the letters. In our opinion, the resolution of the characters is based on the above, therefore: "N. C. PP. Z. [Nicolaus comes perpetuus de Zrinio] 1563.” In connection with this, we must mention the portrait of Miklós Zrínyi, which also owes its existence to the collection of Archduke Ferdinand of Tyrol. According to art historians, the work was created around 1541-42, however, Szabolcs Varga, who also includes the painting on the cover of his book, notes that the image shows the towered coat of arms used after 1554, so it could only have been created later. As a bridging solution, he also considers it conceivable that the coat of arms was only painted on later. The helmet decoration of the coat of arms is the crowned eagle, and below it is the monogram N.C.P.D.Z. Based on the analysis of the design of the ring seals and the handle cap, we support the opinion of Szabolcs Varga, according to which the picture was made after 1554. As the example of the hilt cap shows, the dragon helmet ornament can also be found on later coats of arms, but the eagle only after 1554. The abbreviation of "Nicolaus comes perpetuus de Zrinio" can be recognized in the monogram, but instead of the two P's of "perpetuus" there is the D of "de" next to the initial P. When describing the portrait, he draws attention to the fact that Zrínyi rests his right hand on his sword and gives voice to the assumption that this saber may be the same as the weapon he was holding during his escape. Looking at the picture, we believe that the depicted saber is an ornamental weapon kept in Vienna, as its characteristic grip cap, gilded cross iron, grip spike and the hammered shape of the scabbard suggest this. Taking this into account, we can further specify the time when the portrait was made, as it could only have been made in 1563 or after, not excluding the possibility that it was the occasion of the significant social event discussed below. We can ask the question: why did Miklós Zrínyi need a new saber in 1563? In the case of a person engaged in warfare, the acquisition of a weapon should not need an explanation, but the saber we are examining is not an ordinary utility sword, but an ornamental weapon (we would highlight this in the detailed description, as it is important!), which is indicated by the use of noble materials and the quality of the workmanship.

The Zrínyi sable and the coronation of Miksa I as Hungarian king in 1563

In September 1563, Miklós Zrínyi was not just a guest at the coronation ceremony of the Habsburg archduke Miksa (Maximilian II 1527 – 1576), but one of the protagonists. According to Ferenc Forgách, who harbored not exactly friendly feelings towards him, Zrínyi applied for the palatine dignity. This assumption cannot be far from the truth, as he played a major role in the events. The nobles and counties of Hungary represented themselves with ornately equipped horse teams, whose general was unanimously chosen as Miklós Zrínyi, who arrived at the ceremony on September 8 at the head of a team of 186 horsemen. During the preparations, Miklós Oláh, the archbishop of Esztergom, urged the country's dignitaries to appear at the coronation ceremony "with bright splendor and in as fancy clothing and equipment as is necessary". János Lissthy (also Lissty/Listhius), the eyewitness, saw that everyone tried to comply with this: "However, those who appeared were in very bright equipment; most of them were interwoven with gold and adorned in various silk garments. And their weaponry was that of light Hungarian cavalry. All of them were equipped with armor, helmets, sabers, swords, shields and lances." At the coronation ceremony, according to both contemporary sources and new research, Zrínyi carried the state apple ("the golden ball with a cross on top"), and at the feast following the coronation of Queen Mary the next day, she dared to address the new king, "that, according to ancient custom, they drink to the health of the orders of the Hungarian crown from a large gilded silver bucket, which three people could barely lift. Miksa fulfilled this request according to his talent, and then most of those present, so that the bucket had to be filled several times." Finally, on September 13, Miklós Zrínyi and several Hungarian magnates accompanied the monarch in hussar clothing, and according to ancient Hungarian custom, they personally participated in the horse race. In Zrínyi's life, the first coronation in Bratislava in September 1563 was therefore an outstanding political and representational event, one of the defining periods of his life. Taking into account Archbishop Oláh's request and Zrínyi's participation in the coronation celebrations, it seems fully justified that he had a decorative saber made in the fall of 1563, which is worthy of his rank, the post of general of the Hungarian troops and the bearer of the state apple at this important event. In connection with this, we must also voice our assumption that the other two pieces of the collection of objects linked to Miklós Zrínyi, preserved in the Museum of Fine Arts in Vienna, the hussar helmet and the ermine-lined silk jacket decorated with gold threads, could also have been prepared for the coronation ceremony in September 1563, and the Szigetvári hero could also wear them there. The other ornamental saber already described – from the collection of Ferdinand II of Tyrol, partially transformed – can even be connected to the coronation in 1563, because it was (also) then given to Ferdinand I by the Hungarian nobles. Contemporary sources can provide some clues regarding the origin of the saber. Since the blade and handle of the saber are predominantly Turkish work, and - as we have seen - only the cap and the scabbard were made to Zrínyi's order, it is likely that it is a captured weapon.

In the life of the Szigetvár hero, a notable looting took place in 1562, which Miklós Istvánffy mentions in his historical work. At the end of March, Zrínyi set out with a large force against Bey Arszlán, who was encamped at Monoszló near the Dráva, who did not accept the confrontation, but fled with his soldiers. "The Arszlán's tents and many camp animals, with burden carriers and mule drivers, hunting nets and hounds fell into our hands", as well as two old cannons and four falcons. The possibility may therefore arise that the famous saber was originally owned by Arszlán Bey, and even in its modified form it reminded its later wearer of the success in Monoszló, but its origin could of course be a raid by another looter or even a gift from a Turkish dignitary. As indicated by the above, the saber is not simply a utility object associated with Miklós Zrínyi, but an important component of the Zrínyi cult, which, together with the other objects in the Ambras collection, plays a representative role. Miklós Zrínyi was at the peak of his career in 1563. The objects prepared for the coronation in Bratislava were not only meant for the event, but were also meant to express the great dignity that played a decisive role in the life of the country. The fact that his self-sacrificing outburst in 1566 secured a place for him in the pantheon of history is already the result of the changes of fate and the politics of the time. Those personal belongings - including his weapons - that were with him during the siege of Szigetvár, certainly became Turkish booty and did not return to the family. However, his decorative weapon, helmet, and dolman made for representational purposes could remain at Csáktornya, as he did not need them in battle. This set of objects became the most personal memory of him after his death. On the tombstone unearthed in Szentilona, he is shown in full-length with a sword hanging from his side, which, in terms of its shape, the hilt cap and the straight cross iron, is modeled on the Viennese saber. Considering the design of the tombstone, it is not expected that we will get an accurate representation of the weapon, since only an eagle's head indicates the crowned eagle on the helmet decoration of the coat of arms, however, the presence of the saber shows its importance. In addition to the coat of arms, the customer of the gravestone considered the saber to be an authentic object that refers to Miklós Zrínyi. Imperial propaganda demanded heroes in the war against the Turks, but Miklós Zrínyi had an even more significant role, since his voluntary death made him a "soldier martyr". The Zrínyi family gave the empire a wartime symbol, represented by the family's personal items - relics. The fact that these objects ended up in the collection of Ferdinand of Tyrol shows the significance of the gesture. It is not a nobleman's fad, where the family tries to fulfill a request with some unnecessary things, but a collection representing the heroes of the holy war of the empire, where appearing is one of the greatest recognitions. The group of objects and the portrait were particularly suitable for this, since they were also meant to express Zrínyi's greatness at the coronation in Bratislava. The above line of thought may seem more like speculation, but we consider it important to describe it, as we wish to indicate our view that the Ambras objects were added to the collection in accordance with the conscious decision of the family. They did not try to remind Zrínyi of the gunpowder-smoked, bloodstained broken weapons of the siege of Szigetvár, but rather the dignified personal items of the candidate for palatine, which indicate the rank of the family and the role to be played in the life of the empire.
...
Blade length/penge hossz............83cm
Blade width/penge szélesség.......3.8cm
Grip/markolat...........................11.5cm
Cross-guard/keresztvas...............23cm
Languettes................................12cm
Upper languette/csúsztató?........5.6cm
Yelman/fokél hossza.................22.6cm
Mass sabre / tömeg szablya........1150g
Mass scabard / tömeg hüvely.......800g

[Teisani]

26 - Sabre and Pallash of Transylvanian prince János Kemény (1607–1662)

Note how similar the sabre is to this one http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277901&postcount=40
The curved hilt. Flared quillon ends, The scabbard decorations. Same period, 1600s to 1660s

[Teisani]

A few more effigies, from Transylvania this time. Primary source is: "Memory from the past, display for the future - early modern funeral monuments from the Transylvanian principality by Dóra Mérai (2017)".

a1 - Kendi/Kendy brothers tomb side plate, Alba Iulia/Gyulafehérvár Transylvania, Romania. Kendi Ferenc in 1534, was one of the organizers of Alvise Gritti's (minister of the Ottoman sultan, and regent of Hungary from 1530 to 1534) capture. In 1540, together with István Majlád/Ştefan Mailat, he attacked the Hungarian king János Szapolyai, and was therefore exiled and then pardoned by Queen Isabella Jagiellon. King Ferdinand I appointed him in 1553 Voivode of Transylvania, a position he held until 1556 alongside István Dobó. He was executed with his brother Antal for treason on August 31, 1558 on the orders of Isabella. They tried in fact, with Ferenc Bebek, to overthrow her from the Transylvanian throne during one of her stays in Poland. It is unclear if the two brothers had a common grave or not. It is also not certain that the side plate is from their tomb, however it does match the composition and size of two other plates from their tomb. The tomb might be just Antonius/Antal's and was comissioned by his son Franciscus/Ferenc III.

[Teisani]

b2 - Sükösd György (1589-†1631) - National History Museum of Transylvania, Cluj, Transylvania, Romania.

Dude's wearing some freaky armor! Nice koncerz and mace next to him. The knuckle bow and curved rear quillon (like a few other pallash and koncerz, see Kemény János) are a nice touch.

[Teisani]

c3 - Tomb effigy of Telegdi Miklós († before 1548, effigy made in 1563, 15 years later) - Tileagd/Mezőtelegd, Bihor county, Romania. Strange looking hilt, but worth including here, Not sure if koncerz or pallash.

Photo:http://www.kjnt.ro/ertektar/ertek/a-mezotelegdi-reformatus-templom

[Teisani]

A few more acheological finds.

1 - Old type sabre with remarkably well preserved hilt fittings.
https://tula.bezformata.com/listnews/kulikovo-pole-otkrilas-vistavka/112552478/
https://guns.club/news/events/tysyacheletnie-sabli-predstavleny-na-vystavke-v-tule/
https://ti71.ru/photo/4239/
https://vestitula.ru/lenta/140871

2 - One posted by fellow forum member, Evgeny_K. Everything about it, the long quillons, the scabard fittings (look a bit like Thury György's and Skanderbeg's), even the Ottoman blade, screams "1550s-1610s rich man's sabre with a taste for Hungarian fashion".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=239912&postcount=15

[Teisani]

[QUOTE=Teisani;279470]b2 - Sükösd György (1589-†1631) - National History Museum of Transylvania, Cluj, Transylvania, Romania.

A nice match - Muzeul Județean de Istorie - BRAȘOV: http://clasate.cimec.ro/detaliu.asp?k=E40AC507DDF24038A8D0F8A4A0406077
Blade and guard look nice, but the handle is likely new, mid-19th century?

[awdaniec666]

c3 - Tomb effigy of Telegdi Miklós († before 1548, effigy made in 1563, 15 years later) - Tileagd/Mezőtelegd, Bihor county, Romania. Strange looking hilt, but worth including here, Not sure if koncerz or pallash.

Photo:http://www.kjnt.ro/ertektar/ertek/a-mezotelegdi-reformatus-templom

I would dintinguish a koncerz from a pallasch by the following:

The Koncerz was not worn at ones body because it was too long. Carried while attached to saddle. Also the Koncerz wasn´t meant for fencing on foot with its lenght > 120 cm (up to 170 cm). There may or may not have been shortened versions which could be used also for fencing but I would expect them to have a more complex hilt in Western style which would basically result in a Rapier..
A Pallasch, for those who may read this and don´t know, has a medium lenght (ca. 80-90 cm) but broad (3-4 cm) blade and can be single (later)- or double-edged (earlier examples). Earlier ones tend to have a centric point while those from the 2nd half of the 18th century up to the end of the Napoleonic times tend to have a hatchet tip in Austrian and Hungarian regions. Some countries like France and German states however kept the centric point up until this kind of sword went out of use.

Judging by the hilt of mentioned epitaph I would not be surprised if that sword turned out to be a double-edged side sword by the way - the borders to the definition of an early Pallasch seem to be very fluent and doubtlessly the later evolved from the sidesword.

[Teisani]

Hieronim Chryzostom Chodkiewicz 1598-1613. This portret should be from 1613.

[Teisani]

Jan Karol Chodkiewicz 1570-1621. The description says the painting is 19th century, but if so, that sabre looks very "late 16th century" to me. Just look at the long quillons and scabard fittings. He looks to be in his 30s here, so 1600 to 1610 fits the sabre's style. Reminds me of Marek Sobieski's sabre cross-guard. And Illésházy Ferenc's sabre a bit.

[Teisani]

Krzysztof Zbaraski 1579-1627. My guess, portret from 1622 to 1627, although the description says 1610s.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Krzysztof_Zbaraski.PNG#mw-jump-to-license

[Teisani]

Stanisław Żółkiewski 1547-1620

[Teisani]

Andrzej Firlej 1537-1585. Notice the gold wire wrap on the hilt. Same as on the Bathory and Bebek sabres.

[Teisani]

Coat of arms granted by Transylvanian Prince, Bocskai István to János Károly (Kassa, November 6, 1606). See link for better pictures. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2195

[Teisani]

Queen Isabella grants Lukács Zutori Szabó a CoA. Date, 1548.https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/3049

[Teisani]

Bratislava 1619. Ferdinand II https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2985

[Teisani]

Vienna 1629. Sabre with knuckle bow. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/imgview/cimereslevel-adatbazis/1152/

[Teisani]

Vienna 1569. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/imgview/cimereslevel-adatbazis/1152/

[Teisani]

King Matthias I of Hungary grants CoA to nobleman Gergely Nagy, nobleman Péter Huszár of Szerdahely 1466. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1021

[Teisani]

More coats of arms.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1170
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/99
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7241
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6999
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/5530
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/106
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/155
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/115

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary, Vienna1583. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7052

[Teisani]

King János I of Hungary 1540. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/5

[Teisani]

King of Hungary, Ulászló, Buda 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7197

[Teisani]

Ferdinand I. King of Hungary. Date estimated 1531-1558.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6899

[Teisani]

Lipot I of Transylvania 1698. L-guard sabre https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/711

[Teisani]

Ferdinand II king of Hungary. 1622
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7240

[Teisani]

Sigismund Bathory 1599 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/105

[Teisani]

Ferdinand I king of Hungary 1555. Copy of original! https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1296

[Teisani]

Ferdinand I king of Hungary 1549. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/8

[Teisani]

Ferdinand III 1645. Another L-guard. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1199

[Teisani]

Ferdinand II king of Hungary. 1628. L-guard sabre.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/287

[Teisani]

Ulászló II king of Hungary 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/3834

[Teisani]

Bethlen Gábor 1624 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/262

[Teisani]

Lipot king of Hungary. 1660 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7147

[Teisani]

Miksa or Maximilian1569

[Teisani]

This one is interesting. It has the same turned quillons as in the Telegdi Miklós effigy. Dated 1615. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1925

[Teisani]

Figure-8 koncerz from 1573.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1271

[Teisani]

King Louis II of Hungary 1526.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/4158

[Teisani]

Rákóczi Zsigmond 1607. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2250

[Teisani]

King Miksa of Hungary => Gergely Koroknay of Somogyi 1573. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2001

[Teisani]

King János I of Hungary grants Sandrin Bakács of Szentgyörgyvölgyi CoA, 1532. One of the first evidences for boot hilt and knuckle bow https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1999

[awdaniec666]

One of the first evidences for boot hilt and knuckle bow

Is this term "boot hilt" used in Hungarian or any other language? Fits well to describe that construction.

[Teisani]

Is this term "boot hilt" used in Hungarian or any other language? Fits well to describe that construction.
I remember seeing this term somewhere online many years ago. I like using it, it's short and descriptive. I don't remember if it was ever used in published literature.

I also propose the term banana-hilts for these:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277674&postcount=20
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277680&postcount=21
This term will be my contribution to science and humanity. People will forget about that pretender Gilgamesh and instead write stories on clay tablets about me.

[Teisani]

Hungarian king Miksa => Imre Orlle of Karva, Miklós Orlle of Karva | renewal of coat of arms 1571. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1331

[Teisani]

Bocskay Istvan 1606. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/137

[Teisani]

This is interesting. A very early depiction of boot-hilt sabres on this document from the king of Hungary, Ulászló II, 1507.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1988
Although it is also here by Miksa in 1572. Strange. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1960

[Teisani]

Ulászló II king of Hungary from 1507. I would consider this an Ottoman banana-hilt...yes, I'm making standard designation :D
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/3919

[Victrix]

Ulászló II king of Hungary 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/3834

Note silk knots through specially dedicated holes in the sword grips.

[Teisani]

Same CoA as this one http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280504&postcount=100. But from 90 years later. Ferdinand II king of Hungary grants Sándor Bakács of Szentgyörgyvölgyi CoA, 1622. Reverse L-guard on his koncerz. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/249

"By giving his horse to Palatine János Bánffy in the Battle of Mohács, Sándor Bakács saved his life"

[Teisani]

King Janos grants CoA in 1533. Early Ottoman-like, short quillons https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2

[Teisani]

Ferdinand I king of Hungary grants CoA in 1559. Koncerz vs. Lance! He seems to have been pierced by the lance in his forearm. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7285

[Teisani]

Unrelated but cool. 1559. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6925

[fernando]

Excellent work, Gentlemen; just keep going :cool:.

[Teisani]

Figure 8 koncerz from 1559 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/22

[awdaniec666]

I also propose the term banana-hilts for these

Speaking about those, banana-hilt is the better choice in comparison to an obvious alternative which found its way into nomenclature of medieval daggers :D

Figure 8 koncerz from 1559

Could be as well a side-sword or rapier in my opinion but I guess thats of minor importance. Again, I think one of, if not the most important specifications of a Koncerz is it´s role as a sword-lance from horseback with a lenght that was unsuitable for mounting it on a persons belt ;) The use of piercing swords from horseback and the possibility to use them on foot would have been extensive and reality would most probably allow no clear dinstinction between types (as can be observed in the discussion about Szabl(y)a, Pallasch, Kard, Koncerz and so on). In todays discussion however a more or less clear nomenclature can help in the discussion and I think we should open up a thread someday to discuss that matter especially for east-central to east European arms and armour on the background of successful Western-European paragon.

[Teisani]

I would classify these swords with thin blades with acute points, pommels and figure-8 guards as koncerz / estoc / hegyestőr, because we have remnant specimens that match the iconography. You can find here an article with many pictures of this type of weapon. https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/view/FoliaHistorica_18/?pg=181&layout=s

From what I can tell, based on iconography gathered so far, koncerz were of two main types, pommeled with cross/U/8-guards or boot-hilted with cross/L/N-guards. You can see pommeled koncerz on the Stockholm Roll with the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow, 1605. I talked about the Moldovan envoy's here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279167&postcount=97
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279231&postcount=98

Now let's look at some others from the Stockholm Roll. You can see below other individuals wearing the same kind of golden sword with narrow sccabard and lack of knuckle-bow as the Moldovan envoy. Others are wearing swords under their left leg with knuckle-bows, boot-hilts and wide scabbards. I would call these pallos / pallash / palasz since the wide scabbards indicate wide blades for cutting.

225430 225431
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Now here is a problem... some are in a grey zone. It's difficult sometimes to clearly define a sword as koncerz or pallash. Same probleam as in the case of side-sword versus rapier.
For example the swords below, I would define as pallash without hesitation. And they show the Ottoman origins of the wide pallash in Europe.
https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/372961/?lv=detail Skanderbeg
https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/2021/03/thury-kardja.html?m=1 Thury Gyorgy
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225438
But what about the bottom one in this picture. Shorter than usual, can cut, but still very thrust-centric. Most would say koncerz, but I would say that calling it a pallash is also reasonable, because it would have functioned as one due to its blade length.
225441

And sometimes you get wide blades in these pommeled koncerz hilts.
225440

Now for a recap:
Effigies
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279470&postcount=63
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279473&postcount=64
Painted art
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280481&postcount=81
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280494&postcount=92
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280498&postcount=95
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280499&postcount=96
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280504&postcount=100
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280530&postcount=105
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280537&postcount=108
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280542&postcount=110 in this one you can see the hussar going against the Ottoman lancer. So koncerz vs. lance.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280548&postcount=113

It also occurred to me just now, after all these depictions in effigies and paintings, that these N-quillons, most likely, actually existed. I initially considered Stroe Buzescu's sword with N-quillons as artistic license or a unique specimen due to "eccentric rich guy" sindrome. Se here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=275525&postcount=61
Now it seems, it may not be so implausible.

[awdaniec666]

This is interesting and thanks for posting those links.
It seems to me that the concept of the Hegyestőr in Hungary and it´s specifications differs depending on which time period one is looking at. In Polish literature Koncerz means basically the over-long Estoc with Hungarian hilt from the 17th century onwards. Going through the information provided by you - and this makes sense since this weapon interpretation came from Hungary most possibly - discussed weapon (here the hegyestőr) design has in fact been shorter and carried by the belt.


"A hegyestőrök a 15. században jelentek meg, Stiborici Stibor a sírkövén jobb oldalára fölkötött hegyestőrt visel."

(Hegyestőr appeared in the 15th century, Stibor Stiborici wears a Hegyestőr tied to the right side of his tombstone.)


"A katonák nem a derekukra kötötték, hanem a nyereg jobb oldalára
erősítették."

(The soldiers did not tie it around their waists, but attached it to the right side of the saddle.)

Source:
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegyest%C5%91r

[Teisani]

To clarify, in this discussion, I reffer to:
N-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane parallel to the sword's longitudinal axis.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279794&postcount=66


S-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane perpendicular to the sword's longitudinal axis.
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K-quillons as these, János Kemény and Ferenc Bethlen swords
225456
225457


8-guard
225460


L-guard (normal and reverse)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=225351&stc=1&d=1679322061
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=225361&stc=1&d=1679327742
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=225355&stc=1&d=1679324305
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=225415&stc=1&d=1679401849

U-guard
225458
225459

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary grants Tamás Baráthy CoA. 1580 Prague. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6871

[Teisani]

Ouch! This guy got pierced in the hip with a lance.
King Miksa of Hungary => Ferenc Tury of Nagytúr | renewal of coat of arms 1571. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6962

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary. Bratislava 1580. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1222

[Teisani]

Benedek Borsó of Cserneki 1613. Inscription: "16: 13 G. I. M. T. Benedictus Borso de Cernek (manu) p(ro)p(ri)a. Kegyelmed atyafya et baratya minden korr. Genade dir Gott." https://hu.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fájl:Cserneki_Borsó_Benedek_képe.jpg

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary 1577-1582.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/57

[Teisani]

King Rudolf of Hungary => Mihály Kovács of Dicske | renewal of coat of arms. This dude's fighting a lion. He is very western in outfit.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7363
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1351
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1343

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => Mátyás Terczák of Drasty, castle lord of Gradec castle | renewal of coat of arms 1579
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7345

[Teisani]

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Márton Balázsdeák | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1563.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/2622

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => István Pap of Miskolc | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1582. Good details on the sword hilt.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7700

All these S-quillons and 8-quillons on Hungarian koncerz and pallash, remind me of other earlier Hungarian swords with similar guards ;) . This thread is full of them. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280227&postcount=20

[Teisani]

Here is an example of why basing ourselves on these depictions in coats of arms / CoA. This one from 1582 has a man in typical Hungarian fashion, but with a knightly sword. It could be a pallash with a pommel, it could be e Germanic sword. We don't know for sure. This CoA may be old enough to depict weapons from an earlier period, and was inherited unchanged. To make things worse, Hungary, Wallachia, Moldova, Poland-Lithuania etc. were a mix of East and West, so both are probable.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7742

[Teisani]

Note silk knots through specially dedicated holes in the sword grips.

Yes, in my opinion a very "Ottoman" trait. It shows that early 16th century Kingdom of Hungary troops still had some basically identical kit to Ottoman troops. Note, I use Ottoman for simplicity. Check out these "wounded Uzbek prisoner" themed artworks. Notice the sword-knots, very faint unfortunately. Some are hanging on the cross-guard to stop them from flopping around. All have banana-hilts :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/persianpainting/36136461795
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/91394

[Teisani]

At some point the Ottoman cavalry started to adopt the koncerz. And Ottoman miniatures can provide a wealth of knowledge.
http://warfare.tk/Ottoman/Suleymanname/Suleymanname.htm
Here is an illustrations from the Süleymanname 1558 showing Ottoman Deli Sinan fighting against the Hungarian Eugene at the battle of Mohacs 1526. Notice the koncerz under the deli's left thigh.
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Another one from the same source shows a duel. Both combatants are equipped with koncerz' under their thighs.
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In both instances, the Ottoman's koncerz has an "8-guard".

[Teisani]

More details from thos one. Note, I think that 1572 is the correct date. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=280530&postcount=105

[Teisani]

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Nehóczy Boldizsár noble, Bálint Nehóczy noble | renewal of coat of arms 1560. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7283

[Teisani]

Helmets aren't perfect. János II elected Hungarian king => András Kotecz of Sajó | coat of arms 1560.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1310

[Teisani]

Member of the elite "rabbit hussars" atop his powerful goat. Year of such calamity, 1582. Armed with lance and wide cross-guard sabre, king Bathory would have been proud to command such destructive potential. Just imagine David Attenborough's voice while reading this :) .
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7465

[Teisani]

King Rudolph of Hungary => Ferenc Győry | coat of arms, 1604. Horse with koncerz. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/1006

[Teisani]

István Bocskai, Hungarian and Transylvanian prince => Miklós Segnyey of Lapispataki, captain of Kassa | coat of arms, 1606. Cavalry fight scenes with winged hussars. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/5452

[Teisani]

Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1613. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/199
Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1608. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/6972
Similar hilt to this http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279470&postcount=63

[Reventlov]

King of Hungary, Ulászló, Buda 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu/adatbazis/cimereslevel-adatbazis/adatlap/7197

225534

Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers, as seen here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279862&postcount=18) and here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279412&postcount=106).

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Another example of the 1470s is in Austria, but the artist Hans Siebenbürger was evidently a Transylvanian Saxon, the land of "Seven Castles" (German: Siebenbürgen).

225537

[Teisani]

225534
Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers...
In my opinion, it's more likely to represent an Ottoman style sabre. You can see the angled end-cap like on these sabres.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277794&postcount=26
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=275607&postcount=64
And the cross-guard looks like this one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=277734&postcount=24

[awdaniec666]

Now that we have seen lots of s-guards and banana-hilts, it would be a great time to dig up those depictions of Tatar sabers or other under-represented forms (Ordynka, Czeczuga, Ormianka etc.).
Hopefully I can also come up with some paintings including the Polish knuckle-bow saber in the future (Mr. Z´s Class I which I have mentioned very briefly in the Karabela Guide (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27238)).

[Teisani]

THE ADORATION OF THE MAGI. About 1514. St. Paul and Peter's Catholic Church, Dryswiaty, Braslau district, Vitebsk region. The main painting might be from 1514, but in my opinion the inserted image of the hussar is a later addition, due to the stylistic difference between the two images. So unfortunately I don't think it can provide much info.
Hmmm... maybe the coat of arms next can be of some use in dating the hussar depiction.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Пакланенне_вешчуноў._Фрагмент._Дрысвяты.jpg
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He doesn't very different to the figures in the "Tablica gołuchowska" from circa 1620. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tablica_Gołuchowska.jpg. Note: the example on the Wikipedia page seems to be a reproduction. I believe this one to be the original.
225615

[Teisani]

This site looks like a nice source for some depictions. https://17c.org.ua/dzherela

The embassy of Bohdan Khmelnytskyi to Janusz Radziwill in 1651. Abraham van Westerfeld. They look like tatar sabres

[Teisani]

Here's something that caught my eye. While browsing the pictures in the site mentioned above, this "fragment of a painting of the palace in Kielce (Poland) in the 1630s" had two hussars, who appear to be wearing sabres with typical boot-hilt, and cross-guard with side-ring. It's not the best clarity, so the side-ring aspect is debatable.
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Then I remembered that I had seen a sabre with a side-ring before... in this depiction of Nikola Zrinski (Ban of Croatia 1647-1664) from the Klebebände (Band 2) by Jacob von Sandrart (publisher) 17th century. At first I thought it was a fantasy design, but now I must reconsider my verdict.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Portraits_of_Nikola_Zrinski#/media/File%3AArolsen_Klebeband_02_337.jpg
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[Teisani]

Add to this, the fact that in the Stockholm Roll from 1605 we have some Polish infantryman carrying what appear to be sabres with knuckle-bows and side-rings. They could be dusägge/dussack type sabres, but usually these have more complex hilts and pommels. So, any opinions?

[awdaniec666]

So, any opinions?

This could be the early Lithuanian modification of Hungarian sabers. Lithuanians seem to have preferred more protective guards. There are plenty of examples from around 1700. These here could be predecessors. This is just a guess for now.

[Teisani]

Patrick, I would like to comment a bit on a picture in karabela section of your document on page 1. The picture is from "Turnierbuch von Erzherzog Ferdinand II. Fol. 167, Austria after 1557, Kunstkammer Inv.-Nr. 5134. On closer inspection, I don't think de depiction is of a karabela-hilted sabre, rather a banana-hilt. I've attached it, and a few more photos from it. https://www.facebook.com/Wissenswertes.aus.vergangenen.Epochen/photos
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And from Hochzeitskodex Erzherzog Ferdinands II.: Ferdinand und Wilhelm 1582. Künstler/in: Sigmund Elsässer
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[awdaniec666]

Teisani,
hm.., with respect to the quality of the paintings I think we can interpret the hilts as they are shown to us and that hilt is clearly shaped like an eagle-head. ;)

[awdaniec666]

Some more depictions I found recently.

1. Hieronim Radziwill in his hussarish wedding dress, Poland-Lithuania - anno 1764
2. Stanislaw Herakliusz Lubomirski, Poland-Lithuania - 2nd half of the 17th century (note the scabbard of the Karabela -clearly a battle type- beeing decorated in red instead of black, in contrast to some authors who claim these were only encased with black leather. It´s also interesting that the hilt is probably made of wood or horn despite the rank of the bearer, which is an argument against claims that simple hilts were used solely by the lower class nobles who could not afford lavishly decorated hilts. The Lubomirski family was one of the richest in Europe at that time.)

[Teisani]

1 - Thököly Imre from Transylvania, born 1657 - died 1705. Karabela hilt sabre. Chevrons on the hilt are visible.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thokolyi.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
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2- Pálffy Miklós 1552–1600 from Transylvania. I'm unsure if this portret was made much after his death, it's from Klebeband Nr. 1. I believe we should be careful with these portrets, since some could be later copies of lost originals, and could contain elements from later periods. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arolsen_Klebeband_01_440.jpg#mw-jump-to-license
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At his side there is a typical boot-hilted sabre. In the lower left corner two sabres which look like karabela hilt, however they also seen reminescent of german hunting-sword hilts, like these here (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28734). They lack the languette on the side of the guard, but it's pretty common for period depictions to omit this detail. Opinions?

[Teisani]

3 Styrian sabre blades + crossguards, mace, hussar helmet and lammelar breastplate remnants found in the tomb possibly of Bathory Ferecz (died 1597-1602) or Elek Bathory (died 1587) in Pericei, Sălaj county, Romania 2021, by a team from the Muzeul Judeţean de Istorie şi Artă Zalău.

One the x-ray picture looks like a pallash with a triple fullered, double edged blade.

https://maszol.ro/belfold/Tizenhatodik-szazadbeli-nemesember-sirjara-bukkantak-Szilagyperecsenben
https://www.agerpres.ro/cultura/2023/09/27/salaj-primele-informatii-genetice-privind-familia-nobiliara-bathory-oferite-de-oseminte-descoperite-la-pericei--1176447
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Exijdoh1TVI
https://muzeuzalau.ro/rezultate-starea-actuala/

[Teisani]

Clearest pictures I've managed to find so far.
https://www.nuremberg.museum/projects/show/295-volckamer-memorial-foundation-relief-plates

[Teisani]

One more (trophy?) Ottoman sabre depiction in European art. From the L'Ospedale di Santo Spirito - Corsia Sistina. The fresco was painted around 1475-78, and probably depicts Nicholas of Ilok, "King of Bosnia and Wallachia?", who came to Rome as a pilgrim for the Jubilee, in the spring of 1475.
You can read about it in 'MEN IN EXOTIC DRESS', SIXTUS IV AND CRUSADE: A FRESCO OF CORSIA SISTINA AND ITS MEANING (http://luxfass.nec.ro/data/pdfs/publications/books/Liviu_Pilat_Men_in_Exotic_Dress.pdf) and in Dracula before the POPE in 1475? Forgotten sources (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbHlFR6ZnqM)

Unfortunately, the pictures and the depiction itself aren't very detailed. So of limited use. I'm posting this here just for completeness.