A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,

I please ask tour opinion about what seems to me an indian or afghan pesh kabz with an armour piercer tip.
Seems an old model but the blade seems not as old,mauve a " tourist " item.
On the "date" side , I can read ont three numbers:
a 1 a 3 and a 9
So if it is 1390 writes , it was made on 1970...
( but where it the fourth number ??

Glad if somebody can translate the cartouche
( seems not the best craftmen work... )

Kind regards

[ariel]

Islamic dating very often omits not the last number but the first one: millennium.
Rather than reading the date as a 139(?) it is ( IMHO) more likely to be 1139, i.e. 1726-27 Gregorian.
The general appearance does not seem to agree with late 20 century, but the 18th one is quite probable. How about a good pic of the entire thing, blade, handle, scabbard, photographed directly from above?
You may want to send a pm to Kwiatek, I bet he can read the cartouches and verify my dating.

[mahratt]

Hello dear members,

I please ask tour opinion about what seems to me an indian or afghan pesh kabz with an armour piercer tip.
Seems an old model but the blade seems not as old,mauve a " tourist " item.

Kind regards

Hello.

I think your guess is correct. This is a tourist item.
As you can see for yourself, the blade is made not in Eastern traditions, but in imitation of European blades. Although, perhaps, calling this knife "tourist" is not true. Maybe it was used as a weapon in the late 20th century.
The question of inscriptions on blades is always not very simple. 1) there is never 100% certainty that the date printed on the blade corresponds to the year of manufacture (we all know about the blades of Assadullah)
2) as my acquaintances Afghans told me, the numbers that are applied to the blade or the metal elements of the handle are sometimes an ideogram denoting the name of the owner.

[fernando]

Any reason not to show us the whole piece, francantolin ? Can we see the entire piece ?

[Richard G]

My two pennies worth - zero in arabic script is a dot, which can be overlooked or omitted. Thus AH1309 is a possibility.
Regards
Richard
PS. I can see 'amal' which indicates it is a date of manufacture.

[ariel]

Indeed, there is a long gap between 3 and 9 and a missing 0 there is a theoretical possibility. Howevver, I cannot recall any Islamic date written with a number in the its middle omitted.
However, whether 1139 (1726 G) or 1309 ( 1891 G) , both are far, far earlier than 1970’s:-)

The armor-piercing tip also makes the end of the 20th century unlikely: the age of armour was over long before that. I see nothing sharing its appearance with any European features except for the ricasso, but “indian ricasso” might be a direct possibility.

Waiting for Kwiatek.

[mahratt]

Thinking aloud: having an "armor-piercing" point does not guarantee that the dagger was made in the days when armor was used ...

[francantolin]

Thank you all for your messages,

Mahratt, this one is your's ?
Do you think it is a "recent" 20th century model ?
The final tip is not large/strong enough ?

[mahratt]

Thank you all for your messages,

Mahratt, this one is your's ?
Do you think it is a "recent" 20th century model ?
The final tip is not large/strong enough ?

Hello, francantolin

No, this is not my dagger. But there are a lot of these items, made in the early 2000s for American soldiers who served in Afghanistan, on e-bay. The one I posted is definitely a tourist one.

Your dagger, I think, could have been used as a weapon. But from its appearance, I tend to think it's late 20th century.

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,

I finally got it ! ( I only had the seller pictures thats why I couldn't post more before)
The blade seems good and not recent work with what seems to me a large enough diamond section piercing mail tip.
Strange global shape indeed ,what I found interesting ,

For the inscriptions/engravings,
They are of better quality than I thought: deeply and finely engraved; I show them to a friend who read and makes arabic calligraphy and he couldn't translate the cartouche so maybe is it in afghan/ farsi ?

The scabbard sure, is a later ''invention'' ;)
Made of three part of what I think was a
bayonett or cutlass scabbard ( old european model ?)

So maybe all is an afghan mix ?

[mahratt]

Hello dear members,

I finally got it ! ( I only had the seller pictures thats why I couldn't post more before)
The blade seems good and not recent work with what seems to me a large enough diamond section piercing mail tip.
Strange global shape indeed ,what I found interesting ,

For the inscriptions/engravings,
They are of better quality than I thought: deeply and finely engraved; I show them to a friend who read and makes arabic calligraphy and he couldn't translate the cartouche so maybe is it in afghan/ farsi ?

The scabbard sure, is a later ''invention'' ;)
Made of three part of what I think was a
bayonett or cutlass scabbard ( old european model ?)

So maybe all is an afghan mix ?

I think you are right. This dagger is made in Afghanistan. But, it is enough to compare your item with traditional pesh-kabz daggers to see the differences. I marked them with arrows in the photo.
I think that your dagger is made in the middle of the 20th century under the influence of European models of knives and daggers.

However, I am sure that this item was not made for tourists and was used as a weapon.

[ariel]

We can speculate until cows come home, but as long as the cartouches are not read we will remain in the dark.

[mahratt]

Unfortunately, the inscriptions of the 20th century are unlikely to tell us anything interesting about the dagger. In this case, they are secondary. First of all, we should pay attention to the external signs of the dagger.

[ariel]

I still believe that decoding the texts will bring valuable information. Thus, I took a liberty to send a pm to Kwiatek ( no response yet) and asked some of my colleagues , native Urdu, Farsi and Pashto speakers , to lend a hand.
Will see what transpires.
Both scabbard and handle are obviously old replacements but the blade is an interesting one and francantolin’s personal assessment of it is careful and honest and deserves as good an answer as possible.

[gp]

For the ones who did read my post, I deleted it so please look upon my comment as not written
Looking forward to the contributions of both gents in the future, much obliged

[ariel]

gp,
I am not ignoring them: I just expressed my general point of view. There is no need or obligation to refer to each and every previous post. Nothing personal, just different views on the practice of attribution.

Unless an item is obviously fake or “tourist”, it deserves careful consideration. Not making an effort to decipher the inscriptions ( especially with an uncertain date) prevents complete assessment of an item. Francantolin asked a legitimate question and specifically asked for translation.

I have consulted with knowledgeable people who can help, and I shall report the results. After that any person can keep his opinion, but at least we shall have full information that the new owner asked for.

[francantolin]

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

[francantolin]

The handle is interesting,
It has been modified later,
Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle
with an indian or afghan older blade.
Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok...

Sure and would be really helpful ,
The translation of the cartouche.
For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 .
No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !!
Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade )

[ariel]

Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail.

And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter.

I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

[ariel]

Thanks for the enlarged views of the blade of your pesh-kabz. I saw them literally 5 minutes ago. I have a suspicion that it might be wootz. Can you polish and etch it?

[francantolin]

The shape of the steel hilt has originally a shamshir hilt shape

Indeed, I never saw a ''shamshir" hilt on a pesh kabz or a zirah bouk .
A remanied blade ?

[ariel]

There are plenty of khanjars and pesh kabzes with "shamshir-like" handles. Pics attached; I got them randomly from the Internet. Plenty more were omitted:-)

And yes, the handle is a replacement. Your new pics show it clearly. This, BTW, only strenghtens the idea of a respectable age of the blade.

[mahratt]

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

[ariel]

Just to clarify: nobody makes a direct comparison between a dagger from messages ##17/19 with the one presented by francantolin for discussion. It is viewed and discussed on its own.

[mahratt]

Don't these words:

There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine
speak of comparison? Maybe I misunderstood because of my bad English? Dear forum members, correct me, please?

[francantolin]

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

Hello, sure it's not the same and I didn't said it was caucasian made but here the similarities:

-afghan old blade with ricasso and a not often seen renforced tip on a "european look like battle knife"
-a new hilt made of two parts of brown horn
-a not origina bolster
-scabbard shape with final round tip
( sure, this one is all silver )

You just have to change the shape of the blade...

I'll do an etching but I need nital for reveal what seems to be cristalline wootz

[mahratt]

Hello, sure it's not the same and I didn't said it was caucasian made but here the similarities:

-afghan old blade with ricasso and a not often seen renforced tip on a "european look like battle knife"
-a new hilt made of two parts of brown horn
-a not origina bolster
-scabbard shape with final round tip
( sure, this one is all silver )

You just have to change the shape of the blade...

I'll do an etching but I need nital for reveal what seems to be cristalline wootz

Thanks for the detailed answer, francantolin.

You see this knife from message #17 is a very strange item. Yes, of course, I think it is made in Afghanistan. But it is absolutely not traditional in form. I am sure that it was made, like your knife, under European influence and somewhere at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. However, unlike your knife, the knife in message #17 retains some traditional features.

The shape of the handle of your knife is not at all similar to the shape of the handle of the knife from message # 17. There is a ricasso on both knives, but you must admit that the ricasso is very different. On the knife from message No. 17, the ricasso is decorated in the traditional style. On your knife, the ricasso is undecorated and more crudely done.

[ariel]

Francantolin,

Right now anything we say will be pure speculation.
There is a rule:” If it wasn’t written, it never happened”. Fortunately, there is some written information on the blade that can add a lot to our final verdict.

But in any case, I am glad that our positions are getting closer and closer.

For example, ” This is a tourist item” (post #3) was changed to “ I am sure that this item was not made for tourists” ( #11)

Similarly, the proposed dating “ from its appearance, I tend to think it's late 20th century” (#9) was changed to “ your dagger is made in the middle of the 20th century” (#11) and recently to “… like your knife…somewhere at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries” (#27). In short, there is hope for a mutually agreed upon dating.

It is an unusual blade, we do not have a statistically large enough sample with verified datings to place your example in a reasonably accurate group. This is why personal gut feelings may be very misleading.

I am waiting for the translations from my colleagues and hopefully from Kwiatek. They are likely to add a lot. I do not know what they are going to tell us , but I do not think such a simple dagger is going to bear the name of Assadulla: there was no sense to provide a spurious date to jack up its price: it was probably comparable to McDonalds “Happy Meal” :-)
I have no dog in this fight, I am just modestly curious.
I shall go with anything the translation tells us.

[mahratt]

I would like the participants in the discussion to carefully read the messages of other participants. Carelessness can often lead to embarrassing mistakes. In any case, I hope that this is inattention, and not a desire to distort other people's words to please my own opinion.


I think your guess is correct. This is a tourist item.
As you can see for yourself, the blade is made not in Eastern traditions, but in imitation of European blades. Although, perhaps, calling this knife "tourist" is not true. Maybe it was used as a weapon in the late 20th century.

Very often, if one or two sentences are removed from the reasoning, the meaning of the reasoning changes completely. Usually this is used by journalists of the "yellow press".

At the same time, I don’t think that there is a big difference if this dagger was made in the 1950s-1960s or in the 1990s. The important thing is that this item is made under European influence and is absolutely not traditional...

However, this does not mean that it is a bad dagger. It's just that in my opinion it is necessary to really evaluate the objects that fall into our collections.

[Ren Ren]

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine
How time flies! A similar knife was sold at the Imperial auction in 2010 with the attribution "knife of the Crimean Tatars". The owner offered to discuss it in one of the Russian forums. It was a heated discussion on 37 pages! :D Most of the participants - but by no means all! - came to the conclusion that this is a knife from Afghanistan.

[gp]

It was a heated discussion on 37 pages! :D

and no one said "dawaj, dawaj...pashli, pashli tovarischi..."? :-)))

rough translation: hurry up, dear friends...


must have been very interesting...specially to learn about the pro and cons about it
Also makes me think or sounds like our "change of minds " in this forum are quite short and simple.

Nevertheless I think it is a beautiful piece / ochen krasivo ! Love the 2nd picture !

[Ren Ren]

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage! :)

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-)))

As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

[Saracen]

In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

[Ian]

Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

[ariel]

Double

[ariel]

My guess based on seeing multiple examples of modern tourist Indian or Afghani daggers on e-bay have several easily noticeable features: general appearance of the blade is very impractical; decorations are produced by methods not requiring hard work ( deep etching is very popular); armor-piercing tip is puny and obviously weak. Post #7 is a classic example.

I am sure other Forumites have their own sets of features permitting quick attribution as modern touristy fake.

Old armor-piercers all without exception are Zirah Bouks by definition, swords and daggers. Human anatomy is such , that penetration of it by 3-4 “ in almost any place reaches a vital organ.

[gp]

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage! :)

so you were young lads "fighting" skirmishes like Georgy Konstantinovich at Khalkhin Gol ? :)

[ariel]

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))
Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar.


Saracen,
Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger.
I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.

[gp]

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))


that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

[mahratt]

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺


You are absolutely right :) But it was not even "fighting" skirmishes of Khalkhin Gol. It was more like "Battle of Stalingrad" ;)

By the way, despite our current disagreements, in that "battle" I was "in the same trench" with аriel :)

[ariel]

And for the life of me, I cannot even recall which side I was on:-)

Perhaps it made no difference: to steal a line from George Bernard Shaw’s pithy take on economists, if all the arms experts were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion.

Valid dating and attribution have to rely on the inscriptions and on physical signs of the object (patina, rust, wear, evidence of old repairs, techniques used, historiography etc.).

Gut feelings may be deceiving: there are too many instances of parallel development and/or mutual origin. That’s why G.C. Stone misread Minasbad for Parang Nabur and Tirri claimed N.African origin of Laz Bicagi etc. I have shown here Khyber knife and Bauernwehr with identical blades.

Only physical facts can serve as valid evidence of dating and origin. The rest of argumentation can force us to take a wrong turn.

In retrospect, does the dagger with pierced details belong to Afghanistan or Crimea is still uncertain to me. Sorry. We were laid end to end ……

[mahratt]

I agree 200% with these words:


Valid dating and attribution have to rely on the inscriptions and on physical signs of the object (patina, rust, wear, evidence of old repairs, techniques used, historiography etc.).

But! Paying attention to the inscriptions, you should always remember the "Assad Allah Syndrome". We can find the name of this master on blades made from the 16th century to the end of the 19th century. And if you trust the name on the blade, you can make a mistake and date the item incorrectly.

[Ren Ren]

Paying attention to the inscriptions, you should always remember the "Assad Allah Syndrome". We can find the name of this master on blades made from the 16th century to the end of the 19th century. And if you trust the name on the blade, you can make a mistake and date the item incorrectly.
Quite right! That is why extremely prestigious blade attribution contests are held in Japan, the author's signatures on which are closed.

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Of course, forging famous names is a very attractive ploy to up the price.
But that is exactly why I mentioned long list of physical features that had to be looked at first.
A pretty primitive blade " signed" by Assadullah or even a first-rate blade " signed" by him and carrying gold-inlayed , calligraphically perfect date of 1845 :-) provide 100% guarantee of fake. This is beyond any argument.

Classic example of it are several gorgeous shashka/saber blades with the name of "His Imperial Majesty armourer Geurk" and written dates circa 1830's from highly reputable private collections and world-famous museums were proven to be made not by Geurk, but likely by his descendants or even assistants simply because Geurk died 1820-1824.

But by and large dates and signatures are genuine, especially when and if they are not capable of bringing any substantial profit.

This is why I am really interested in francantolin's dagger. It is obviously so simple that any hope of spurious dating and attribution is not going to up its price by more than $10:-)

No faker would spend any time and effort forging a blade with a complex profile and engraving it by hand with long cartouches for such a pittance.

But the fully remastered handle serves as a strong argument of its rather substantial age.

[mahratt]

A solid age... Is it a lot or a little? Half a century (50 years) is quite a respectable age. The handle of an object that was used could have been replaced a year after it was made, if it was damaged

[ariel]

OK
Got a translation from my ex-fellow , who is Pakistani from Pakhtunkhwa. He is fluent in Urdu and Pashto but did not specify the lanuage of the inscription. Judging by the translation ( see below) it did not matter: just a name and standard Quranic sentences.

“ Arabic script in first picture is pretty clear

First line is
Starting in the name of Allah, the most beneficent and the most merciful

Second line is
Allah’s help has arrived and victory is near .

Second picture is
First line (Name with caste) actually this is a Shiite caste

Muhammad Muhammad Ali Boroujerdi

Second line is Islamic way of writing date
Big line on right is place for 2 digits for date
Second small line is space for writing month
Months are usually written as letters rather than digits
Then it is likely 1309 because 0 is not omitted rather in Arabic 0 is just a dot .

۱۳۰۹
1309 “

I. e. 1891 in Gregorian.

I think that provides an answer to Francantolin and closes all speculations about “1970”, “1950” , tourist production, American soldiers etc.

[gp]

OK

“ Arabic script in first picture is pretty clear

Second line is Islamic way of writing date
Big line on right is place for 2 digits for date
Second small line is space for writing month
Months are usually written as letters rather than digits
Then it is likely 1309 because 0 is not omitted rather in Arabic 0 is just a dot .

۱۳۰۹
1309 “

I. e. 1891 in Gregorian.

I think that provides an answer to Francantolin and closes all speculations about “1970”, “1950” , tourist production, American soldiers etc.'

I have to disagree as the above explantion on numbers and date is actually speculation and thus unacceptable...

Please allow me to explain:

I have lived in several Arab countries for years, and never was in a year a number omitted, also not in calligraphy writting. Nor on metal objects from coins, jewelry , etc.

nevertheless one does not need to take my word for it, as I am no scolar of the language and gramma...

so I consulted an Arabist who confirmed that both in modern as in classic Arabic all 4 numbers should be present.
Specially as there is sufficient room available...

So we are back to square one I am afraid or actually we need to continu the search back to mahratt's last statement as the date explanation is null and void ...

[mahratt]

I don't want to upset the author of the topic, who is probably happy now, but, as I wrote earlier, the inscriptions on the blade cannot be singled out separately from the subject itself. There is a Russian proverb: On the fence it says "Huy" (male sexual organ in Russian argot), but if you look behind the fence there is firewood. ... I hope the allegory is clear?
So I'll say it again. Don't get hung up on the inscriptions. Especially if they are made on non-traditional blades.

[francantolin]

Helli,
Thank's a lot Ariel to you and your Pakistani friend for the translation !
Sorry for the late reply
For the date ''mystery'' ,
It can perhaps be a day and a lunar month,
The 13th of 9th ramadan month
, first of what are called the white days

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Days&ved=2ahUKEwi4ncbz8Kn5AhVmhf0HHTpHC4gQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3FRkHiToEuJTHyrY1CYdcC

( strange on a blade and pure speculations marhratt, I know ; ) just a new add )

PS: Soon come 10 1 , Achora day

Kind regards

[mahratt]

Helli,
Thank's a lot Ariel to you and your Pakistani friend for the translation !
Sorry for the late reply
For the date ''mystery'' ,
It can perhaps be a day and a lunar month,
The 13th of 9th ramadan month
, first of what are called the white days

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Days&ved=2ahUKEwi4ncbz8Kn5AhVmhf0HHTpHC4gQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3FRkHiToEuJTHyrY1CYdcC

( strange on a blade and pure speculations marhratt, I know ; ) just a new add )

PS: Soon come 10 1 , Achora day

Kind regards

My friend, instead of believing the fantasies of our esteemed Ariel, you had better read my book on the weapons of Afghanistan. Then you will understand that until the 20th century, all weapons made by local craftsmen in Afghanistan were traditional.

[francantolin]

Thank you,
But I always pay attention to dogmas with books... ;)

[Richard G]

I believe Afghanistan has intermittently used a Solar Hijri calendar, known as the Shamsi Hijri calendar.
In this case 1309 = 1930.
That should keep everybody happy.
Regards
Richard

[gp]

looks like some have also been smoking here what we knew as Black Afghan in the late 60ies and 70ies in Europe....and caused some nice dreams
I can advise when reading books to change to Carlos Castaneda "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge"....:D
But that does not answer the issue addressed sadly...

Jokes aside and let's be serious and get away from the "perhap"ses... or I believe or mix knowledge with assumptions or subjective interpretations. ..
as assumption are not facts.. but according to my CEO the mother of all f-beep- ups
Like the Stones sing... only my imagination that's runnin away wizz me....
Or.. you cant alway want wot you get...
But lets stick to facts and knowledge . (In this case the book referred to already by Mista M) which avoids also the bickering as addressed by uncle Ian.

.
Many here are from the West but when I sometimes read about f.i. explanation on Islamic items, unfortunately hardly facts come up but hearsay or "I think"...
Even saw the Nizari Isma'ili Shia founder and leader Hassan i Sabbah (the old Man on the Alamut Mountain!) being connected to Sunni and Sufi Bosnia.... And raki was not even involved.
We must carefully either refrain from commenting or seeks answers from or with real scolars


You can also easily address the al Azhar University in Cairo Egypt or the University of Sarajevo Bosnia ( Oriental Studies Institute Arabic, Turkish and Persian )
and gues wot.... not only two pearls of wisdom and knowledge but ...they speak & write English, French, German ... better than most of us

I said it before...but you can take a horse to the water but can't make it drink....

[werecow]

EDIT: Never mind, I kind of feel like I'm poking at a hornet's nest.

[gp]

EDIT: Never mind, I kind of feel like I'm poking at a hornet's nest.

No you have not,I think some interesting points are being made if one doesn’t take it personal.
Only thing I meant personal is for folks to check facts first with available sources....
which is actually quite easy

as f.i. talking 'bout Holland: if one wants to know about Bestevaêr....we simply go to A'dam Scheepvaartmuseum or de Stichting Michiel de Ruyter ☺☺☺

[Ian]

I would like to remind folks that these forums are for a wide group of collectors and other interested parties, not all of whom are experts or have particular knowledge of what they are interested in. Opinions and ideas are welcome. If someone expresses an idea or opinion that is off the mark, that's okay. We all live and learn.

I would also ask those who have some expertise to be patient and not chastise others who express their ideas and opinions, albeit mistaken. Sometimes we can get carried away with scholarly accuracy and forget that not everyone here is a scholar of the subject.