Schiavona - The one that got away

[werecow]

Hi there,

I imagine any collector who frequents auctions and does not have unlimited funds has seen some beautiful swords be sold of to a higher bidder, appearing to be just out of reach. So I wanted to make a thread where we can mourn the loss of these beautiful swords and remember them fondly! Or if such a thread already exists please point me to it, as I am a new poster here (though lurking for a while now). }|:o)

I'm posting this on the European board because mine happens to be European, but any sword is welcome.

My biggest regret was this schiavona that I was bidding on last September. It was sold with a haudegen or walloon sword, but my focus was the schiavona. This isn't the fanciest example I've ever come across or the most well-preserved, but something about this sword in particular appeals to me and I am still sad I didn't manage to get it. The basket looks like it wants to cradle my hand and I like the chiseled highlights. The broad blade looks like it has a high degree of distal taper and the broad, deep looking fuller gives it a kind of brutal-yet-elegant look. I am very curious as to how it feels in the hand. There are some modest engravings on the blade that give it just a bit extra. The pommel has some nice little details and the brass gives the whole thing a fun little highlight.

I have only a modest budget and I decided to bid far more than I usually do, for my 40th birthday. Sadly, not enough, as I was only the second highest bidder even after going a fair bit outside my comfort zone - though I bought two other swords for the money I set aside that I'm now quite fond of (one of them from here!).

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.

[Philip]

Hi there,

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.


The plural is schiavone.
The one in the image you attached is a nice one. These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing, they were workaday weapons made for mercenary soldiers. Condition is not all that bad, I've seen worse. Sorry you missed it! Fortunately these aren't all that rare, perhaps next time your luck will land you one with its period scabbard!

The hilt basket on this one is an early version of what is classified as Oakeshott Type 2 in the reference literature, appearing at the opening of the 17th cent. and remaining popular for some decades thereafter. The broad blade, with single deep fuller and negligible taper in its width, is of a form reminiscent of an early style classified by most modern scholars as Oakeshott Type XIIIb which is much-depicted in later medieval art .

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

[ulfberth]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing" I like this one very much and to me its a 17th c one. Most schiavona's on the market are 18thc not bad, but early ones like this one are more rare and especialy the ones with the wider branches like this one has.
In my 45 years of collecting I only once had one like it and would be prepared to go deep in my purse to buy that one back.
I prefer the early one above the more fancy and the later model are usualy more fancy, the simpler the older.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing"

Very true. To me swords should at least look like they were made with combat in mind. I often find that the ones I like the most are the ones with modest decorations rather than the ones that are extremely elaborate (although there are always exceptions).

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

As a relatively new collector I've yet to handle a sword with a thumb ring, but I'm currently saving up for a Walloon sword (of the Amsterdam city guard type, if I can find one I can afford). The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

* Grazie for the correction Philip.

[toaster5sqn]

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

[ariel]

There are no ”buts” about this schiavona: it is perfect. Nothing fancy about it, just a pure muscular example of an old fighting sword in practically perfect shape. There are some of us on the Forum who are almost as old as this schiavona, and we all are in a worse shape and as to “fighting”, let’s not touch the subject…

I am sorry you missed it, but you are young and will still meet the schiavona of your dreams.

And thanks for the new topic: all of us have bags of similar sorrows:-((

[Philip]

The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

.

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Attached here is a dorsal view of a schiavona hilt, just below the axis of the grip you can see the thumb ring incorporated into the basket. These, like Polish sabers, are not unduly heavy swords but having the right thumb hooked on the ring contributes a lot to control and the ability to secure the weapon during use, without resorting to a wrist-lanyard.

[Philip]

Here are additional pics of the same schiavona. Note that the diagonal border of the basket, on the obverse side, is composed of two parallel bars, with "ladder rungs" in between them. This is the mark of a Type 2 hilt. The later and more ornate variants, Types 2a and 2b, have two and three rows of these rungs or steps, respectively, forming the outer border of the basket.

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

[Victrix]

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

This was new to me. Great to learn something new! Thanks for posting. Beautiful scabbard. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?

Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?

[Philip]

. Do you think schiavonas were used at sea or was the sailor knot just symbolic?



I am trying to research that point myself. Venice, essentially a city-state, was primarily a maritime power, defending its far flung network of island and coastal trading centers. But at various times the Republic also controlled land areas in Lombardy, northeast Italia, coastal Croatia, and parts of mainland Greece. The situation is further complicated by the fact that the Republic's heyday coincided with the high period of mercenary warfare in Europe, and since its limited local landholdings made a supply of conscripts problematic, fighting men were recruited in significant numbers from elsewhere, especially Dalmatians and Stradioti from the Adriatic regions.

Venice's preoccupation with maritime affairs is exemplified by the annual ceremony during which the Doge and his court cruised on the massive gilded barge "Bucintoro" into open waters and threw a gold ring to the waves, to renew the Republic's vows of marriage to the sea. And for a long time, its main rival in Italy was Genoa, its seafaring counterpart on the other side of the peninsula.

I would tend to think that from a tactical perspective, a shorter weapon such as the storta , a broad-bladed cutlass or falchion, might be handier aboard the cramped decks of a galley.

[Victrix]

As schiavona means Slav then presumably these swords were predominantly from the Slavs living around the Adriatic in Venice, Dalmatia, and Montenegro. There were some Slav stradioti but I understand most were Greek and Albanian. At some times Venice controlled much of Dalmatia and also employed Dalmatian mercenaries. It seems schiavonas were typically Dalmatian (and Istrian?) and not used much in the hinterlands of Bosnia and Croatia/Hungary. If not donned and used on ships, the schiavonas must have been used at least to defend the many walled cities on the coast like Dubrovnik (Ragusa), Split (Spalato), Zadar (Zara), etc.

[fernando]

... Does anyone know the meaning of the circular spheres on the pommel in the specimen posted above by werecow?
I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures :o)


.

[werecow]

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

D'oh! I've always had trouble telling my left from my right. }|:oP

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Now that you guys mention it I've also seen them on some Sinclair hilts / dussacks, e.g.:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=67600&stc=1&d=1296292875

I guess they are less anomalous than I thought.

[Philip]

Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures :o)


.

Good point, Nando. Yes, even the Italian arms literature refers to "testa di gatto". Some see a stylized pussycat profile, others envision the Lion of St Mark. There is a certain zoological consistency, at least.

[Philip]

As schiavona means Slav then presumably these swords were predominantly from the Slavs living around the Adriatic in Venice, Dalmatia, and Montenegro. There were some Slav stradioti but I understand most were Greek and Albanian. At some times Venice controlled much of Dalmatia and also employed Dalmatian mercenaries. It seems schiavonas were typically Dalmatian (and Istrian?) and not used much in the hinterlands of Bosnia and Croatia/Hungary. If not donned and used on ships, the schiavonas must have been used at least to defend the many walled cities on the coast like Dubrovnik (Ragusa), Split (Spalato), Zadar (Zara), etc.

It would be logical to assume that the style of weaponry followed the custom of the mercenaries using it. Yes, the Stradioti were mostly Greek and Albanian, and with these troops one would expect the "eared" hilted swords with sharply tapering blades to be the norm (three examples in the Bargello shown as fig. 33 in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's article "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier".

And it's true that not all Venetian military action was naval, since the Republic occupied and ruled fortified towns and harbors throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well, both on mainland and island territory. A sword like the schiavona would have been quite appropriate in defense of these positions. The extent of their use, or that of any other type of sword, was probably dictated by the ethnic or geographic origin of the troops involved in the area in question.

The question of the schiavona's use throughout the inland part of Croatia or Hungary is an interesting one. Hungary had great influence and control over parts of Croatia during the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to look at the schiavona's predecessor, the open-hilted broadsword with horizontal S guard and squarish pommel (sometimes with "proto-ears" on the upper corners), called in Italian arms literature la spada alla schiavonesca. This "sword in Slavonic style" exists in great numbers in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale in Venice, and has strong affinities in form to the typical medieval Hungarian sword. The square pommels, many with central bosses and some with "earlets" , were also carried over into the numerous variations of hilts on the Venetian spade da fante or foot-soldiers' swords, of which numerous examples, dating from the late 15th- beginning 16th cent., are also to be found in the Doge's Armory.

The scabbard of the typical schiavona also has a rather Hungarian flavor, with the reinforcing straps on each side on its lower third, secured with numerous bands along their length. You also find this treatment on Polish hussar saber scabbards, the weapon having a point of common origin in Hungary.

Whether these influences flowed the other way, such as the basket hilted schiavona achieving any degree of popularity in Hungary, is something that can be looked into. All I can say at this point is that having visited a number of arms collections in Hungarian museums, schiavone were not in evidence.
.

[Victrix]

I wouldn't know the meaning but, i (think i) discern the same detail in a high end example (gold embeded) in the 'Spanish style' of the XVII century (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
Note that, although the general assumption that the figure often seen in pommels is a cat's (or wolf's) head, there are those who take it as more probable that it is a more or less stylised lion, with the relation of Venice with its symbol of power, the lion of Saint Marcus.
(Sorry for the poor pictures :o).

Yes good point. The winged lion was the symbol of St.Mark and also the symbol of Venice who had him as a patron saint. Incidentally the coat of arms of Dalmatia also has three crowned lions.

[Victrix]

It would be logical to assume that the style of weaponry followed the custom of the mercenaries using it. Yes, the Stradioti were mostly Greek and Albanian, and with these troops one would expect the "eared" hilted swords with sharply tapering blades to be the norm (three examples in the Bargello shown as fig. 33 in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's article "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier".

And it's true that not all Venetian military action was naval, since the Republic occupied and ruled fortified towns and harbors throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well, both on mainland and island territory. A sword like the schiavona would have been quite appropriate in defense of these positions. The extent of their use, or that of any other type of sword, was probably dictated by the ethnic or geographic origin of the troops involved in the area in question.

The question of the schiavona's use throughout the inland part of Croatia or Hungary is an interesting one. Hungary had great influence and control over parts of Croatia during the late Middle Ages. It's interesting to look at the schiavona's predecessor, the open-hilted broadsword with horizontal S guard and squarish pommel (sometimes with "proto-ears" on the upper corners), called in Italian arms literature la spada alla schiavonesca. This "sword in Slavonic style" exists in great numbers in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale in Venice, and has strong affinities in form to the typical medieval Hungarian sword. The square pommels, many with central bosses and some with "earlets" , were also carried over into the numerous variations of hilts on the Venetian spade da fante or foot-soldiers' swords, of which numerous examples, dating from the late 15th- beginning 16th cent., are also to be found in the Doge's Armory.

The scabbard of the typical schiavona also has a rather Hungarian flavor, with the reinforcing straps on each side on its lower third, secured with numerous bands along their length. You also find this treatment on Polish hussar saber scabbards, the weapon having a point of common origin in Hungary.

Whether these influences flowed the other way, such as the basket hilted schiavona achieving any degree of popularity in Hungary, is something that can be looked into. All I can say at this point is that having visited a number of arms collections in Hungarian museums, schiavone were not in evidence.
.

Philip I think you are right. The square pommel, sometimes with a central boss, is typical Hungarian and you find a lot of examples there. I think most Hungarian swords were produced in Northern Italy near Brescia which explains why this type of pommel is also common in Venice. Pre-WWI Hungary was quite big and included Croatia, Slovakia and parts of what is now Serbia I believe (who were mostly Slavic/Slavonic). Presumably they often used the spada schiavonesca which is the Slavic/Slavonian sword. The schiavona got its pommel from there and probably the scabbard as you pointed out. In my opinion the evidence shows that the schiavona was a Dalmatian sword, and that it was not used in the hinterland of Croatia and Bosnia where the hussar sabre was instead adopted in 17-18thC and the dussägge in 16thC. Curved swords were favoured by cavalry.

[Philip]

I think most Hungarian swords were produced in Northern Italy near Brescia which explains why this type of pommel is also common in Venice. Pre-WWI Hungary was quite big and included Croatia, Slovakia and parts of what is now Serbia I believe (who were mostly Slavic/Slavonic).

Blade production in Lombardy and Veneto was spread between several important towns with large-scale output, the Venetians who governed the areas exported them widely by means of their mercantile genius. Principal Lombard blade centers were Caino and Bergamo. Belluno, in the Veneto region, was known for distinctive hilts (such as the graceful style seen on rapiers and riding-swords, with ball pommels, wide quillons, and tre ponti swept guards) as well as blades; it seems that the city was a prime supplier of arms for the Republic. I have no doubt that many schiavone as well as other swords originated there. Do you have the book I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin? It's fully bilingual, well researched, and fascinating.

Yes, the influence of Hungary cannot be denied. It seems that Croatia, despite Venetian dominance of the coast, was never fully out of the Hungarian shadow. Geographically, the country is like an upside down L, with the shorter arm pointing east and bordering Hungary. The Balkans can be such a complex region!

Yes, Serbia has a Slavic culture and language. The divide between Serbs and Croatians is mainly religion (Orthodox vs Roman Catholic) and the written language. A friend who has lived part of his life in former Yugoslavia tells me that the spoken languages are very similar, but due to the historical and religious background, one uses Roman and the other Cyrillic letters. Unfortunately this has also had political repercussions that turned out quite nasty during World War II.

[Philip]

In my opinion the evidence shows that the schiavona was a Dalmatian sword, and that it was not used in the hinterland of Croatia and Bosnia where the hussar sabre was instead adopted in 17-18thC and the dussägge in 16thC. Curved swords were favoured by cavalry.

Victrix, I agree wholeheartedly.

You mention the düssage, another very interesting weapon. I note that this Germanic term seems related to the name tessak, applied to a short bladed and generally curved sword in Poland, Russia, and other eastern countries. Do you also see a structural / functional relationship between it and the north Italian storta / coltellaccio ? Different name but similar in size and proportions.

The appeal of curved blades to horsemen has a functional basis (cutting efficiency for sweeping cuts from the saddle), undoubtedly inspired by the military traditions of forces such as Tatars, Seljuks, Ottomans, and other Eastern peoples.

[Philip]

Here are 3 swords that have a strong resemblance.

Top is a typical medieval Hungarian sword, 15th cent., this example in the Hungarian National Museum, Budapest, published in Vas, Ezüst és Arany by Temesváry Ferenc, 1989, plate 67.

Middle is a sword identified as a schiavonesca and according to a posting on another venue, was found near Slankamen, Serbia and is in the collection of the Historical Museum of Serbia. At this point it may be worthwhile to cite Ewart Oakeshott's comments about place of origin versus place of discovery, in the intro chapter of his book Records of the Medieval Sword.

Bottom is a schiavonesca in my collection. Blade has the typical Venetian cockleburr stamps. Note the blade profile, broad with slight taper and an angular tip as contrasted with the two examples above. There are numerous examples of schiavonesche in the Armory of the Palazzo Ducale which do not vary appreciably from this one.

[midelburgo]

If you have not done it already, go to Venice, to the armoury at the Signoria Palace. You will have enough schiavonas there for a lifetime.
Alternatively you can get this:

Armoury of the Doges palace in Venice

LE SALE D'ARMI IN PALAZZO DUCALE VENEZIA

Franzoi, Umberto

cheaper in Italian IIRC.

[Victrix]

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated. That’s why the Austro-Hungarian Empire is so fascinating. People traveled around for work, intermarried etc and it became a fascinating meltingpot of diversity which produced great culture.

After the nationalist revolutions of 1848 there was flirtation with pan-Slavism but I think in the former Yugoslavia they realized that sharing a similar language was less important than sharing a common culture, as the different ethnic groups had developed separately under widely different conditions for centuries. The different religions and alphabets are only parts of it (manifestations of the different cultures). After all, the US and Australia share a similar/same language but have quite different cultures.

Many dussägge were produced in Styria as a peasant weapon to counter the threat of Ottoman invasion. They also found their way to Slovenia and Croatia as a useful infantry close quarter weapon. I don’t think you find too many Storta outside Italy and Dalmatia, but their purpose is similar. There is also the German säbel of course, although the Hungarian sabre seems to have been much favoured in E.Europe.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

[Victrix]

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone! :)

[Philip]

Here are a couple of items that I bid for in auctions in the past, but got away from me. Sometimes (rarely) I still think of them, but more interested in finding future interesting objects to bid for. Happy week-end everyone! :)

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

[Philip]

Philip,

Thank you for alerting me to I Grandi Spadai Feltrini e Bellunesi by Michele Vello and Fabrizio Tonin which I will try to acquire. I have tried to source something on Northern Italian arms production in English for some time so it was welcome!

Croatia was in a double monarchy with Hungary which was in a double monarchy with Austria, so it was complicated.

I don’t find huge differences between the Hungarian broad sword and the spada schiavonesca. Could it be that the latter is simply the Italian name for the former from the Italian point of view? I suppose what’s characteristic for the spada schiavonesca is the S-shaped cross guard whereas the typical Hungarian broad sword often has a straight cross guard (frequently tapering towards the hilt) and a square pommel.

I recall finding my copy of Vello / Tonin via the worldwide bookfinder.com search engine, and was directed to Amazon (don't all roads lead to Rome, haha). Apparently it's a self-published, print-on-demand production.

Eastern Europe is fascinating for the prevalence of double and multi monarchies. Poland especially -- Wladzislaw II Jagiello (King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania), Wladzislaw III Warnieczyk ( King of Poland and Hungary, died fighting Turks at Varna), Stefan Bathóry (King of Poland and Hungary, Prince of Transylvania, Duke of Prussia), Zygmunt III Waza (you are no doubt very familar with that case). And so forth.

Regarding Hungarian style broadswords, you have a point. One would think that the Hungarians, at the time they were using these things, had an entirely different name for the type, the earliest surviving examples are out of the Hungarian sphere and that nation is not Slavic. As to the differences, they are indeed small, more stylistic than substantive. Personally, I would call one of these swords schiavonesca if the blade had markings recognizable as north Italian, and if the blade profile was somewhat broad with the distinct angular tip. This blade shape seems to be a common denominator to the large number of swords of this configuration that I saw on display in the Palazzo Ducale.

[Victrix]

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

Some eyecandy for you :D .

[Philip]

Some eyecandy for you :D .

Thank you! As a return favor, here are a couple of images of a hand-and-half sword I used to own (all too briefly). Had to sell it to finance another purchase which was too tempting to pass up. Despite its size, the balance was excellent, you could control it very well with just one hand.

[fernando]

I am not an auction bidder. The sword i am showing here is not one that got away but one i had and did let go.
Someone called this example a proto schiavona.


.

[Philip]

Fernando, this is quite an interesting sword. A friend in Canada has one with the same style of guard, and he calls it a "proto-schiavona" too since its construction is even simpler than the earliest recognizable schiavona hilt, the Oakeshott Type 1. His sword has a cat's head pommel but from its material (bronze) and workmanship (domed center with well-worked beaded deco, contrasting with a very plain hilt), we think it's a later replacement on an older sword.

What I find intriguing about your (former) example is that the pommel is not the Venetian feline at all. It's rather Scottish-looking, more precisely the biconical Type V as shown in Cyril Mazansky's excellent book, British Basket-Hilted Swords (2005) pp 22- 23, 78. Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.

[fernando]

... Do you recall if there was a small groove on the lower, inverted "cone" of your pommel? Typically, that retained the edge of the basket hilt on those Scottish swords.
No Filipe, i don't recall such detail, neither i have pictures taken in that angle; this took place back in 2012.
But i wouldn't discard the possibility that this pommel was a replacement. I tried to recuperate the post (?) where i had the opinion about the 'proto', to check on further possible details but ... no results.

[werecow]

Hey, Victrix, I really dig that broadsword! Especially with the inscription on the blade! Do you have a pic of the entire thing? (I know this kind of sword is wandering from the topic of this thread, but I can't resist...

The topic of the thread started out as "swords you didn't get or lost" and only thereafter got changed to be more "Schiavona-centric" so in that sense I feel like it is certainly within the scope of the thread.

[schiavonafleck]

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! :))
This is my collection! :))

[ulfberth]

That is a beautiful collection of good Schiavona's !
In my opinion the schiavona is under rated on today's market, if compared to the basket hilt swords than schiavona's are realy under priced, after al they are mostly of the same period.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

Very nice collection indeed! Quite a lot of variation in a single sword type, too. Do they handle as differently as they look?
The one that started the thread would still be my favorite in terms of looks. There's just something about that blade.

Can't win them all, but perhaps one day I'll find something comparable. }|:o)

[schiavonafleck]

Thanks ulfberth and werecow! :)
The price of schiavona swords has been rising quite a bit in the last few years. Schiavona swords generally do not have a standard balance. Some are very upbeat while others with wide and long blades are quite difficult to handle. But generally great moving swords that perfectly protect the fists, and of course the perfect look. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! :))
This is my collection! :))


Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).

[urbanspaceman]

I've just bought a Pappenheim rapier so I've got no money left for a while unfortunately; I also am in love with these swords

[werecow]

I just bought a Walloon sword, so I'm probably tapped for the rest of the year as well.

But I believe links to active auctions are not allowed on the forums.

[werecow]

Speaking of which, this one was on auction earlier today. Presumably it's been sold now so I hope that's OK. It looks a little odd to me (though it's got one of those broad fullered blades that tickle my fancy!), but I still have lots to learn about these so I'm curious about your opinions. Aside from the wire wrap, is it maybe a composite of old, or even old and new parts? That pommel looks more like something belonging on a swept hilt rapier, and something about the basket looks a bit oddly proportioned to me, as if it's too wide for its length.

[urbanspaceman]

I'm not even remotely expert in judging authenticity; Dirk is the man to ask.
However, I have to agree with you that the grip has been rebound and the pommel replaced, beyond that it seems ok to me.
My preference for schiavona blade types is the wide broadsword with multiple fullers, but failing that, this wide hollow is agreeable.

[Victrix]

Yes in the 19thC the Victorians were avid collectors of anything which was displayed in the stately homes for visitors to view. This included antique arms and armour and sometimes unscrupulous dealers would fashion ”composites” of parts to sell on to unsuspecting collectors. This includes schiavonas which were probably considered exotic collectibles, and some are composites. At the same time part of the charm is the great diversity and artistic beauty of schiavonas where they are all different. This particular item may be a composite but also looks Spanish as the grip ends in ferrules and with the wide fullered blade. The pommel looks baroque and may be a replacement but may also have been added to suit local tastes.

[Philip]

I'm not even remotely expert in judging authenticity; Dirk is the man to ask.
However, I have to agree with you that the grip has been rebound and the pommel replaced, beyond that it seems ok to me.
.

Agreed. Re-wrapping of grips can be expected due to wear or damage during service life, especially considering that the norm for the original configurations was leather over cord winding. The wire binding is a bit out-of-character but understandable considering the long service life of this sword type (the hilt on this example looks to be an earlier style as well). That pommel is the most jarring mismatch, and I would be suspicious of the piece from that standpoint alone.

[schiavonafleck]

Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).


Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. :) I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! :) I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

[Jim McDougall]

Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. :) I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! :) I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

Thank you! Yes, it is indeed my sword which I acquired some years ago. While I simply wanted an example, I had not anticipated the depth of the history associated with this one. While schiavona are not typically thought of in the 'Napoleonic' period, it is known they found service in numerous circumstances outside the Italian regions.

It is interesting that examples as you note have Croatian names etc. but I would have thought these were inscriptions associated with the individuals using them in the service of the Doge. I honestly had not thought of the hilts being fashioned in Croatia, and just as many cutlers assembled swords throughout Styria and other areas it is probably hard to find reliable records of these shops.

Thank you so much for responding and the kind words.

Best regards
Jim

[Victrix]

Speaking of which, this one was on auction earlier today. Presumably it's been sold now so I hope that's OK. It looks a little odd to me (though it's got one of those broad fullered blades that tickle my fancy!), but I still have lots to learn about these so I'm curious about your opinions. Aside from the wire wrap, is it maybe a composite of old, or even old and new parts? That pommel looks more like something belonging on a swept hilt rapier, and something about the basket looks a bit oddly proportioned to me, as if it's too wide for its length.

This is an example of a composite schiavona in the collection of the Swedish Royal Armoury. The pommel, guard and blade are each from different centuries! The sword appears in White Arms of the Royal Armoury (1984) by Lena Nordström, in the section on ”Combination weapons, Miscellaneous, Fakes.”

[werecow]

I saw this on catawiki last week and the combination of the typical cats head pommel and the simple half basket hilt caught my eye. I'm guessing the blade and hilt were a later pairing. Not a combination familiar to me and the blade's shoulders don't seem to fit. A composite? Or something else?

[Philip]

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

[ulfberth]

Looks like a recently-assembled composite to me. There is nothing remotely schiavona-ish (schiavonesque? schiavonoid?) about the basket guard. The fit of guard to blade looks clumsy. The peening of the tang to the pommel looks new, the metal is bright with no sign of corrosion or patina to the iron.

I agree with Philip, the pommel is from a shiavona, the blade possibly and the guard is from a walloon type or German type veld degen.
The guard is 18th c but indeed composit and recently peened.

[urbanspaceman]

Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki.
Ugly marriage.

[werecow]

Strange, I didn't see that on Catawiki.
Ugly marriage.

Over here :o)


.

[werecow]

I see my post was edited... I don't mind as it wasn't important anyway. But I'm not sure I understand why? I linked to an auction that was closed.

[Philip]

I see my post was edited... I don't mind as it wasn't important anyway. But I'm not sure I understand why? I linked to an auction that was closed.

Perhaps the moderator was not aware that the auction had closed before you posted it. I understand that it is alright to post about auctions already dead and gone, not live upcoming ones.

[fernando]

The one item was sold but the site linked was open for active sales; and the sword in question was already shown in post #46.



.

[ulfberth]

These belong also in the category " used to be" had to let them go to be able to move on to other things...

[Victrix]

What were the marks on the schiavona with the plain pommel? Feel free to let me know if you are about to let go of other items. :)

[ulfberth]

the classic Venetian arsenal stamps, that one was a munitiong grade schiavona

[Victrix]

the classic Venetian arsenal stamps, that one was a munitiong grade schiavona

That’s what I thought. I like it! The other two are nice too.

[ulfberth]

This one got away years ago and besides the high quality gold inlay it had a nice Toledo blade to.

[werecow]

They all tickle my fancy ulfberth, especially the rapier and the middle schiavona!

[Philip]

This one got away years ago and besides the high quality gold inlay it had a nice Toledo blade to.

Oh my, I sure wish I was around when you let go of it! Not only the blade, but the inlaid hilt is gorgeous. I like inlay work so much better than the damascene or overlay work because the designs are more precise and durable.

[ulfberth]

Oh my, I sure wish I was around when you let go of it! Not only the blade, but the inlaid hilt is gorgeous. I like inlay work so much better than the damascene or overlay work because the designs are more precise and durable.

Hi Philip, I never owned the gold inlay rapier, it really got away at auction.