Garuda Kris

[SanibelSwassa]

I thought it might be interesting to revisit the Garuda Kris topic and open the floor to origins, providence and symbolism for the forum members. I recently acquired a third Garuda Kris from England. It was collected by a British Naval officer in the 1920’s while aboard a Royal Navy Hydrographical Survey Ship in the British North Borneo region.

[BBJW]

Garuda? I'm familiar with garuda kukris. Interesting.---bbjw

[kai]

I recently acquired a third Garuda Kris from England. It was collected by a British Naval officer in the 1920’s while aboard a Royal Navy Hydrographical Survey Ship in the British North Borneo region.
Wow, you have been busy - congrats on acquiring these neat pieces, especially the 2 old ones!

Dimensions and a close-up of the sosoran area (base of the blade) taken from exactly above would be great though!

I might stipulate that the link to Garuda is far from established! It seems likely that this type of pommels originates from successively abstracted figural keris hilts (Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, brought to bangksa Moro possibly via coastal Malay communities from Borneo); their exact symbolism is also not convincingly established yet. An originally protective function as well as a root in ancestor worship can be assumed though.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

SanibelSwassa,

Thanks for posting these interesting examples. Of the older two, the shorter one with scabbard looks to be Maranao in origin and is of the typical "archaic" form. I would place the longer one as a little later, perhaps early 19th C, and appears to be Sulu.

The largest and most recent one is probably Maguindanao in origin from the late 19th C.

An excellent trio of this uncommon hilt form spanning more than a century of kris development across different Moro groups.

[SanibelSwassa]

Will work on getting a few pics as requested.

Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)

The weight of the Malay blade(much lighter) and the corse grain of the steel are significantly different from the other two blade. Also the silver wrapping style of the Left most krisÂ’ hilt is a style seen in Malay kris.

With that said input or theories are definitely welcome and appreciated.

A discussion around the Garuda and symbolism is also welcome. The two archaic kris hilt style, carving and form start to give some basis for comparison. If there are other forum members with examples of this style of hilt form I would also encourage posting those for us to all compare and contrast.

SS

[Ian]

... Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)
...
SSI agree that the one on the right may well be Malay in origin. However, the elephant trunk area does closely resemble the Maranao style, and the raised bands on the hilt are also found on Maranao pieces. In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

[kino]

SS, amazing collection. I really like that 3 siko example with the octagonal (?), ferrule.
Here’s one that I have but really doesn’t compare to yours.
This one is really small with a brass or some copper alloyed blade. The hilt has a carving of a “Tree of Life”.

[SanibelSwassa]

Wow!! Thank you for sharing the example from your collection. The carving on the hilt is very interesting. There is definitely serious symbolism in this hilt style.

I’m including another example I found in Europe but that isn’t for sale. It also has similar characteristics. Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?

[SanibelSwassa]

Here are some additional pics of the two archaics.

[kai]

Hello SS,

Both of the archaic kris have very nice twist cores. Have you checked yours?
Albert's blade is made from a copper alloy - so no pattern welding to be expected.

It also seems to be quite a bit younger, possibly with a recycled hilt/pommel. From the design, the hilt might well be from a similar period as your younger example that you got from Charles.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Ian,

In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).
Thanks for your clarification - I was already wondering whether you had mixed things up... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync. :eek:

[David]

Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

[kai]

Hello David,

As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts.

I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy".

I do not understand what is meant by this.

With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper.

We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon.

Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use.

I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world.

Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

[Battara]

I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant).

Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then. :confused:

[kino]

Jose, to answer your question, Yes, copper + tin or copper + zinc alloys.
I’m really not sure what the blade composition is other than having copper content. Nothing mentioned about being a battle blade.

[David R]

As I understand it, copper and brass blades are for ritual and supernatural uses. Protection against "witches and demons".

[SanibelSwassa]

For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated.

[SanibelSwassa]

Obviously we are focusing on the pummel at this point.

[kino]

Here’s another pommel of similar form. I don’t have a current photo of the whole sword.

[SanibelSwassa]

Kino… thank you!! Look for as many examples I can find to try to correlate characteristics, symbolisms and potential origin. And and all comments and thoughts are very welcome.

[David]

For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated.
While i realize that the image of Garuda has an impact all across S.E.A. i do have to wonder why an Islamic culture would place enough importance upon it to consider it's symbolism appropriate for use in this manner. I don't see much left in this abstracted form to be able to definitely identify it as a bird form, but it very well could be. But why Garuda? The Moro, more specifically the Maranao people, have a long history with the mythical bird Sarimanok for instance. Why are we fixated on Garuda as a symbol for an Islamic weapon?

[Sajen]

Another one, simple and in wood: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27569&highlight=kris

[SanibelSwassa]

I don’t know that I’d call this a fixation but rather a hypothesis. We have a Kris form that significantly deviates from all other Moro forms. I am suggesting that one possible reason for the divergence is that the form is dislocated from the traditions which bind other Kris making groups within the region. My working hypothesis is that the makers of this form are not the traditional Islamic Moro smiths with which we are accustomed. The pattern of the hilt form is significant and distinct from the other forms to a degree to which conjecture as to origin, symbolism and form change are IMHO questions we should be open to exploring.

As for the bird form… I would ask you to look again at the two archaic hilts I last posted and look first for the similarities, which I find to be very compelling. Once those are identified then questioning the dissimilarity and the possible reasons for them could help us determine different directions for discussion as to origin, etc. It is for this reason I’ve asked forum member to assist in locating any other reference pieces for this discussion.

Theories on other symbolic forms that could be the genesis for these deviations are definitely open for discussion and ideas in that vain will be appreciated. I would however point to the fact that the Garuda figure as far as cultural timetable relevance throughout SEA is very significant and all kris forms likely have some influence from exposure to these earliest of documented empires that encompassed these areas. However, Buddhist, Islam and then Christian empires definitely overlaid this same region. Also given that what I will refer to as “Native” mythology certainly existed and was likely significantly influenced by each of these successive empires over time.

My question as a starting point for this discuss is to dive into the possible answers, not to prove the one I think potentially viable.

With that said here is another pic I found in the forum that is interesting. I believe Ron may have owned this kris.

[xasterix]

Hi, my kris also has an indomalay hilt which Rafngard referred to as Jawa Demam. Like you, I'm also trying to research its history in the Bangsamoro timeline. I like how it fits in my hand.

[SanibelSwassa]

What a fabulous Kris! So far my research is pointing toward the Northern Coast of Borneo and I am still skeptical as to the Jawa Demam origin for this Kris style. The Hindu and Buddhist influences among the peoples of this area are well documented and date back to the 4th century. My working hypothesis is that the symbolisms and form that date back to these earlier societal beliefs stayed as a part of the culture and mythology and are the bases for the form we see in these more rare Kris. With that said the mythological, Sarimanok is definitely another potential source for this form, but given the area I am finding as the origin for these Kris I am not seeing that as likely. I think discussion on these points iare important. hopefully it leads us closer to understanding the group of smiths from which these blades come.

As a side note it appears there was significant trade in kris blades of high quality between Moro and Malay peoples and that Moro Kris blades became status symbols throughout the sultanate.

[xasterix]

What a fabulous Kris! So far my research is pointing toward the Northern Coast of Borneo and I am still skeptical as to the Jawa Demam origin for this Kris style. The Hindu and Buddhist influences among the peoples of this area are well documented and date back to the 4th century. My working hypothesis is that the symbolisms and form that date back to these earlier societal beliefs stayed as a part of the culture and mythology and are the bases for the form we see in these more rare Kris. With that said the mythological, Sarimanok is definitely another potential source for this form, but given the area I am finding as the origin for these Kris I am not seeing that as likely. I think discussion on these points iare important. hopefully it leads us closer to understanding the group of smiths from which these blades come.

As a side note it appears there was significant trade in kris blades of high quality between Moro and Malay peoples and that Moro Kris blades became status symbols throughout the sultanate.

Thanks for sharing your research!

I'm not well-versed in Mindanao and Sulu art, but I can see traces of Moro patterns in our odd hilts. Also, to note- I read that jawa demam has a certain ambiguity when it comes to what's depicted on the pommel- sometimes it's indeed viewed of as garuda; but it can also be viewed as a crouched man carrying a snake. This is interestingly parallel to the prevailing symbols in Mindanao and Sulu- Mindanao, for its sarimanok, and Sulu, for its naga.

[David]

Thanks for sharing your research!

I'm not well-versed in Mindanao and Sulu art, but I can see traces of Moro patterns in our odd hilts. Also, to note- I read that jawa demam has a certain ambiguity when it comes to what's depicted on the pommel- sometimes it's indeed viewed of as garuda; but it can also be viewed as a crouched man carrying a snake. This is interestingly parallel to the prevailing symbols in Mindanao and Sulu- Mindanao, for its sarimanok, and Sulu, for its naga.
I must admit that i have never heard Jawa Demam described as a "crouched man carrying a snake". The generally accepted theory is that the name, which basically means "Feverish Javanese" comes from an abstract figure that appears to be a man bent forward (nor crouching) with his arm wrapped across his belly as if in physical distress. Ergo "feverish". This is not to say that was the original intent of the form. I suppose it is possible it was originally intended as a bird form, but i suspect that many of these long-nosed or "beaked" figures more likely were derived from various long nosed wayang characters rather than birds.

[Sajen]

I agree with David on all points. And especially regarding the term "bird" hilt, I don't see a bird in the hilts which get described as bird hilt.
Kerner distinguished two basis positions by figural hilts, the squatting figure with crossed arms and the squatting figure with the left arm resting on the knee and the right arm around the knee. See the picture for the first one from his booklet "Keris-Griffe Aus Museen und Privatsammlungen", page 42.
And this is also the figure in question, at least I see here a similar figure Kerner shows in the middle row.

[xasterix]

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).

[Sajen]

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).

Hello Xas,

Short answer: no, at least I never have seen one. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).
Certainly not to the extent that your example extends, but many hilts have ferrule like metal attachments like a selut as this Sumatran Putri Malu hilt does.

[xasterix]

Thanks again to the both of you!

[SanibelSwassa]

I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!

So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility.

In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering to origin of these more rare kris.

So in these pictures…(all from my collection 😉) what is the symbolism for the highlighted area??

[SanibelSwassa]

I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!

So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility.

In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering the origin of these more rare kris.

So in these pictures…(all from my collection:D) what is the symbolism for the highlighted??

[SanibelSwassa]

Now we can look for the same symbolism in the Garuda kris.

I have highlighted the area for observation.

To make the correlation to the amorphous bird form you would also need to look to orientation an find a beak and a crest.

[SanibelSwassa]

We do not see these common symbols in the forms of the Java Demam nor do we find the Shivering Javanese man with the any of the various accompanying forms shown the the pictures already shared in the form of the Garuda kris shown above. While the pistol grip form of the hilt design shares in the indo style the symbolisms do not appear to follow the known elements of the Java Demam origin story associated with those blades.

Further we have other dissimilar elements in the Garuda kris. These elements include the motifs on what I will label the front and back faces of the hilt which should be examined.

As I have already shown other examples here is another compare and contrast.

[xasterix]

We do not see these common symbols in the forms of the Java Demam nor do we find the Shivering Javanese man with the any of the various accompanying forms shown the the pictures already shared in the form of the Garuda kris shown above. While the pistol grip form of the hilt design shares in the indo style the symbolisms do not appear to follow the known elements of the Java Demam origin story associated with those blades.

Further we have other dissimilar elements in the Garuda kris. These elements include the motifs on what I will label the front and back faces of the hilt which should be examined.

As I have already shown other examples here is another compare and contrast.

There are several okir (Mindanao) and ukkil (Sulu) motifs incorporating that shape/pattern that you isolated.

By chance, I was able to borrow some kris (probably preWW2-postWW2 era thereabouts) that incorporated the hilt in question- but one of them clearly depicted what it was all about :D

[David]

So in these pictures…(all from my collection 😉) what is the symbolism for the highlighted area??
I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19476&highlight=sarimanok

[xasterix]

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19476&highlight=sarimanok

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

[David]

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.
We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

[xasterix]

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

We can always look at the culturally-accurate depictions: in this case, the original pattern as conceptualized by Bangsamoro hands. Here's an excerpt from the book "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago" by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa (2006). These ukkil patterns existed in Bangsamoro infrastructure and grave markers as early as 1600s (some sources say even way before this date).

As you can see...the resemblance is murky if you flip the kris pommel. I would have agreed with you that it MAY represent a sarimanuk if it's the right way up (blade pointing down).

You'll also notice how closely related the naga and sarimanuk patterns are.

I'll prefer to stick to the naga interpretation though- because one of my kris pommels is obviously a snake-head.

[SanibelSwassa]

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

David,

I think the relevance of this part of the discussion is significant IMHO. As we are in agreement that the symbol that we are calling either a wing… which is my personal belief, or maybe an eye if you are seeing the hilt as the Birds head with a crest and a beak. Either way the commonality in both the “Garuda” kris and the traditional kris can assist us in creating working hypothesis to test regarding some of these questions.

For example if we see the symbol as a wing(my starting hypothesis) then the directionality of the overall structure is potentially identifiable as the Garuda kris is only viewable as a form with the blade tip pointed down. It also has a definable front, back, sides and top. The wing symbols are clearly on the “sides” of the structure. This then gives us an point of reference for both the traditional Moro structure and the Garuda form. “If” the meaning for the symbol and the location are defined then the other symbols under consideration can be defined more reliably.

This pic below may allow us to continue that discussion productively.

Obviously the Garuda form is more figurative.

[SanibelSwassa]

Another form for comparison.

[Rick]

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19476&highlight=sarimanok

Also when wielded the beak here is oriented to the cutting edge of the first blow.
What would a bird defend or attack with, the beak, I think.
Just a thought.

[xasterix]

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

[SanibelSwassa]

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

I agree and believe the Garuda kris form confirms this orientation. However, I also agree with David’s assertion that the symbol in the side of the form is most likely a wing.

With that defined we can begin to examine the other symbols on the “Garuda” kris that diverge from the more traditional Moro form. This is where I hope other forum members can assist in deciphering their origins and meanings, with the hope that leads us closer to the group of smiths and people that venerated this kris form.

Below are pics for the front, back, and top of two of the kris I own for discussions.
And while I am labeling this “Garuda”, forum members should feel free to present alternative or conflicting hypothesis. Delving into the symbols and their origins is my line of focus.

[SanibelSwassa]

To better establish the linkage back to the cultural influences from the Hindu/Buddhist contacts with the Malay area I am supplying a paper on studying the carvings of the area. Given the overlay of the Muslim influence perhaps we can see the potential for the Garuda as the source for this interesting form.

[SanibelSwassa]

Here are a interesting pieces with floral motifs that are similar, however the Islamic art from the same time periods also have similar motifs.

[xasterix]

To better establish the linkage back to the cultural influences from the Hindu/Buddhist contacts with the Malay area I am supplying a paper on studying the carvings of the area. Given the overlay of the Muslim influence perhaps we can see the potential for the Garuda as the source for this interesting form.

Mr SanibelSwassa, I talked with a Malaysian keris collector and an Iranun friend who's also based in Malaysia. According to both of them, while the Indomalay-looking hilts that we have may seem related to keris, they're only roughly reminiscent Jawa Demam form; but symbolically, they agreed that our hilts represented a 'dragon'- in other words, a naga. And- this is most important- that they were made in the Philippines, and not elsewhere in the Malay archipelago.

When I asked about the standard and junggayan kakatua form, they said different people viewed it differently; same as in Sulu and Mindanao. Some will say it's a naga, while others will say it's a garuda. To them, it can be either, or both.

[xasterix]

As supporting evidence that this indomalay-style hilt was made in the Philippines- I noticed that the insignia carved into my kris butt pommel perfectly corresponds to the recurring okir structural pattern of a torogan, the traditional Maranao royal residence for nobility. It was reserved for the datu or sultan. This pattern is exclusive to the Bangsamoro.

[SanibelSwassa]

As supporting evidence that this indomalay-style hilt was made in the Philippines- I noticed that the insignia carved into my kris butt pommel perfectly corresponds to the recurring okir structural pattern of a torogan, the traditional Maranao royal residence for nobility. It was reserved for the datu or sultan. This pattern is exclusive to the Bangsamoro.

Xasterix,

That is a fabulous direct origin connection! The Okir on your piece and the corresponding wood lattices is a near prefect match. Do you know what building that picture was taken from and or the buildings rough age??

Thank you for sharing both the information you gathered from your Malay source and the detailed Okir pics!

Very excited! At the same time I’m having a difficult time finding matching Okir or sculpture reference to the symbol on my kris. The number 8 is strongly represented in the three layers of the “flower”. I still have some leaning toward a connection back to Hindu/Buddhist roots on this symbol… but that a work in progress.

[xasterix]

Xasterix,

That is a fabulous direct origin connection! The Okir on your piece and the corresponding wood lattices is a near prefect match. Do you know what building that picture was taken from and or the buildings rough age??

Thank you for sharing both the information you gathered from your Malay source and the detailed Okir pics!

Very excited! At the same time I’m having a difficult time finding matching Okir or sculpture reference to the symbol on my kris. The number 8 is strongly represented in the three layers of the “flower”. I still have some leaning toward a connection back to Hindu/Buddhist roots on this symbol… but that a work in progress.

Thanks for the kind words sir. That specific torogan is called "Bantog-a-Unaya" located in Lanao del Sur; most of the royal house is in ruins unfortunately. It's estimated to be over a hundred years old.

I'm attaching a picture from Baradas (1968) study on okir, there's a Maranao okir motif there that corresponds with the carving on our kris pommel.

[kino]

When inquiring about my copper alloy bladed Kris, one of our friends mentioned that the carving on the back of the hilt somewhat resembles the tree of life. He then forwarded a photo of a Tausug tapestry of the Tree of life that resides in the Philippine National Museum. Xas I wonder if carving on top of the hilt of your Kris could be interpreted as such. Would you classify your blade as hailing from Sulu?

Photo of the Tausug tapestry.

[xasterix]

When inquiring about my copper alloy bladed Kris, one of our friends mentioned that the carving on the back of the hilt somewhat resembles the tree of life. He then forwarded a photo of a Tausug tapestry of the Tree of life that resides in the Philippine National Museum. Xas I wonder if carving on top of the hilt of your Kris could be interpreted as such. Would you classify your blade as hailing from Sulu?

Photo of the Tausug tapestry.

Halloo sir Albert, in my eyes the pommel carving looks closer to the Maranao torogan's pattern.

[SanibelSwassa]

When inquiring about my copper alloy bladed Kris, one of our friends mentioned that the carving on the back of the hilt somewhat resembles the tree of life. He then forwarded a photo of a Tausug tapestry of the Tree of life that resides in the Philippine National Museum. Xas I wonder if carving on top of the hilt of your Kris could be interpreted as such. Would you classify your blade as hailing from Sulu?

Photo of the Tausug tapestry.

Kino,

Thank you so much for sharing the tapestry pic!! That’s a great reference piece. I would agree with Xasterix that his Okir is a direct match back to the royal line used as shown in the pics he shared. Which is an incredible find as to providence. I am excited by the sharing for resources and ideas.

[xasterix]

Kino,

Thank you so much for sharing the tapestry pic!! That’s a great reference piece. I would agree with Xasterix that his Okir is a direct match back to the royal line used as shown in the pics he shared. Which is an incredible find as to providence. I am excited by the sharing for resources and ideas.

Hi sir, can I see the butt-pommel of your krises? I might come upon more insignias, I'll let you know if any of those match.

[SanibelSwassa]

Hi sir, can I see the butt-pommel of your krises? I might come upon more insignias, I'll let you know if any of those match.

Here you go! Let me know if you uncover any interesting similarities with other Okir.

[kino]

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

[SanibelSwassa]

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

Great pic! Wish we knew who had that bad boy!!! Did you find that on this forum?? I think I’ve seen that pic before, but don’t remember from where.

[kino]

I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France.

[Gustav]

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

[xasterix]

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Thanks for this, was just looking at this yesterday. There's remarkable similarity regarding the carving placement (different okir though) between that kris with mine.

[SanibelSwassa]

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Wow… another great thread! Your comments in that original thread linking back to a possible Chinese connection to this form is compelling. It also ties into the know time period placements and the potential origin of the hilt form. Obviously it continued to migrate to some extent, but these seem to be far more rare that the common forms.

Thank you so much for the light pointed in another direction!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Will work on getting a few pics as requested.

Working theory:

Blades from left to right: Maranao (left); Sulu (double fuller with twist core) (middle); Malay (double fuller with twist core) (right)

The weight of the Malay blade(much lighter) and the corse grain of the steel are significantly different from the other two blade. Also the silver wrapping style of the Left most krisÂ’ hilt is a style seen in Malay kris.

With that said input or theories are definitely welcome and appreciated.

A discussion around the Garuda and symbolism is also welcome. The two archaic kris hilt style, carving and form start to give some basis for comparison. If there are other forum members with examples of this style of hilt form I would also encourage posting those for us to all compare and contrast.

SS

It is an interesting quandary indeed.

I've reached out to others who are members here too to discuss these types. Hence my interest in securing what I did this week.

I'm on the fence with a few things, all due to the lack of hard factual evidence.. or at the very least a solid clue to pursue....

Strong Malay influence to my eye, Sulu influenced, for sure, this points to the direction of the provenanced example you secured, the northern coast line of Borneo...

It was certainly a small enclave given the known numbers of the type.

To me, clearly a level of hierarchy/wealth within the locality given the broad variations of hulu quality.

I don't think blade type, given the trade and regional positioning of the area, can be taken as gospel as to original origins of the type.

I feel the devil in the detail lays in the hulu and perhaps the sampir, given that these are what is displayed openly from a cultural point of view. Visually reading this in the day to day context said exactly what it needed to.

Just a little food for thought...

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps

[SanibelSwassa]

The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps

Well the detailed pics from your new piece will definitely expand the discussion!! My thoughts on these pieces are far from definitive but I still feel the distinct subset of this form is significant.

[Gavin Nugent]

I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France.

P. Holstein,Contribution à l'Etude des Armes Orientales, Paris 1931

[Gavin Nugent]

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19476&highlight=sarimanok

Coming back to this image and the previous discussion about what the hulu actually could be... I see this image has not been presented to the previous discussion....I've not delved in the the accession of the item, but the iconography is clear to me even if not regionally specific.

The other image, another from online that to my eyes fits within the subgroup too.

[Gavin Nugent]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19476&highlight=sarimanok

I see the icon as such... see annotations within the image.
I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU?
But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too....

[Gavin Nugent]

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not :shrug:

[SanibelSwassa]

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not :shrug:

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

[werecow]

Pareidolia can be very strong, but even so that is eerily similar.

[milandro]

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

cartography is ancient , so, it may have been possible...although one would have to wonder why they would have chosen that particular profile among all the islands... if not because Papua New Guinea resembles a Kakatua or Cockatoo .

Now the circle really round :D;)

[Gavin Nugent]

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

As Werecow notes, it is an ancient art...

When looking at this map and it's age and date of "publication" in Manila, is it much of a stretch that they knew of the PNG shape? Records show the Malay raided as far as the west coast of PNG.... this may even explain why Twist core was seen as far as Maluku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Sulu#/media/File:Carta_Hydrographica_y_Chorographica_de_las_Ys las_Filipinas_Dedicada_al_Rey_Nuestro_Se%C3%B1or_p or_el_Mariscal_d._Campo_D._Fernando_Valdes_Tamon_C avall%C2%BA_del_Orden_de_Santiago_de_Govor._Y_Capn .jpg

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster :shrug: I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

[Battara]

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster :shrug: I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

To be more accurate, the "other rooster" or sarimanok. It is a stylized mythical rooster from the Moro peoples. So the pommel of the mid 1800s and later resemble more the sarimanok head in the minds of many.

[SanibelSwassa]

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.

[Gavin Nugent]

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

I'll spend some time aligning my thoughts later in the week, but at face value, and no doubt the crutch of the matter that muddies the origins question for me is that I see Sulu motifs, Malay motifs and Boreo motifs within many aspects of the hulu and the dress these are sometimes found in... finding that consistent common and undeniable theme within all seems quite the challenge... equally, most blades as you note are distinctly Moro/Sulu... the adventure continues

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

This aspect reminds me somewhat of the pronounced part of Malaysian/Patani Coteng and to a much lesser degree, the side panels on the Tajong which are more vegetation motifs and not pronounced.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

At the same time I see a metamorphous in process through various examples, not unlike the various stages other Keris hulu forms are found in other regions.

[Gavin Nugent]

Another little side track... so many unique things to the regions .. there is this old thread of an interesting pommel and the image Battara provided...

Whilst not purely of the type, it is interesting to note the upright ancestor like position, and that it looks to be gold from the enhanced photo, also carries what appears to be two seperate rings on and below the pommel, rings that appear to have grip straps running either side of the hulu... complete with very interesting side panels too... Datu Piang and a most interesting hulu.

Note the shirt he is wearing too... very much akin to the Mirror Panels Gustav brought to the forum some time ago...

And this linky...it shows more of the type....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=162113

[Gavin Nugent]

I'm posting these images here too in the hope of bringing more light on the "type"

Stylistically, it is of the subgroup, simply refined in a different manner.

This is in the Malaysian National museum in Kuala Lumpur.
I have not delved into the accession of this piece. It may offer insights.

[Battara]

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.

I think this is a possibility. Certainly Hindu, then Buddhist, then Islamic influences came to the Philippines long ago, and probably merged in styles without knowing their origins.

Also the "gates" may have their origins in the vegetable motifs in Islam and earlier. But I do agree that the top one looks like the gate found on some Islamic prayer mats.

As for the "wings" I still hold that they are more the stylized "eyes" found on danganan, junggayan, and 17c kris pommels.

Great carvings and good to have them with twist cores. :D

[Gavin Nugent]

Also the "gates" may have their origins in the vegetable motifs in Islam and earlier. But I do agree that the top one looks like the gate found on some Islamic prayer mats.

Great analogy Battara. The Mihrab came to mind when considering the motif... there may be something in the repeated pattern on the pommel, like stepping through doors.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449537

[Gavin Nugent]

So...whilst cleaning out my phone of photos I planned for Instagram, I came across this and it hit me... these Brunei and Sarawak hilts very much resemble the upright and floral nature of many of these Sundang hulu, including the silver collar and rings.

I see the resemblance as a direct link culturally, and with the distinct Tausug canted pommels too,(from a general shape point of view), and the long time interactions between nations, along with the settling of Northern Borneo by the Tausug.

Some of these Tausug pommels also carry rather interesting related motifs too...

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

A little further visual interpretation from my perspective...

Given the Malay/Borneo and Sulu flavour of these Sundang, a Sarawak Sadap and Latok to consider...

Again, when viewed like this, and in particular the Sadap, it is akin to the two examples initially presented, those with the carved ivory pommels.

Further to this, and by no means are silver rings new to silver sword handles, but I pay particular attention to their placement in relation to the upright ancestral Jawa Demam types Sundang hilts with the three rings and where they are positioned on the hilts.

I think it is more than a little casual coincidence and perhaps there is a whole lot more to this that first meets the eye.

Now, to add a little more spice to the discussion, although I am writing to myself too often with the fascinating post, have a look at this stunning old Kampilan and consider others in your collections with what the description within the link provides, where my idle ramblings are concerned...
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_As1954-07-194

Battara touched on the alignment and crossover of faiths and worship in the regions and I had my doubts about Garuda being the correct term for these and part of me still does to some degree, perhaps it is spot on.

Correct me if I am wrong but Garuda could travel between heaven and earth, somewhat makes sense to carry this symbolism on a weapon which can take one from earth to "Heaven", but alas I don't feel that was the intent though this speculation of mine...

Interesting are the Biblical references within the script on the Kampilan and that Garuda is the enemy of all snakes... does that include Satan?
Perhaps these hilts are some very real spiritual protective motifs :rolleyes:

What I found interesting was the last Angel mentioned. Azra’il (Azrael, angel of death). When looking at the typical Kampilan hilt, there is a coin to one side... is this the coin that covers the eye when one makes the trip to the afterworld, an eye one side, a coin or token the other, symbolising the ability of the iconography to transcend both planes perhaps?
Not a stretch given the importance of the text on Kampilan in the British Museum and just how old the coin on the eyes of the dead is and how far and wide it spread...

But alas, I ramble down this road because the Museum's Biblical translations and the notation of both garuda and Jawa Demam which is the same quandary found in this thread... several lines of faith aligning in the most unusual places...
Further to this, I present the Latoks because of the Floral eye which feels very deliberately placed, which is like the Kampilan eye position discussed/pictured, and where they are both concerned, they even have the line shapes leaving the eye...

Perhaps these hulu are Garuda... I do not know, I only wanted to share my thoughts about the plausible thoughts behind the iconography of ancestor worship in these regions that share common trade and ancestors.

Gavin

[SanibelSwassa]

A little further visual interpretation from my perspective...

Given the Malay/Borneo and Sulu flavour of these Sundang, a Sarawak Sadap and Latok to consider...

Again, when viewed like this, and in particular the Sadap, it is akin to the two examples initially presented, those with the carved ivory pommels.

Further to this, and by no means are silver rings new to silver sword handles, but I pay particular attention to their placement in relation to the upright ancestral Jawa Demam types Sundang hilts with the three rings and where they are positioned on the hilts.

I think it is more than a little casual coincidence and perhaps there is a whole lot more to this that first meets the eye.

Now, to add a little more spice to the discussion, although I am writing to myself too often with the fascinating post, have a look at this stunning old Kampilan and consider others in your collections with what the description within the link provides, where my idle ramblings are concerned...
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_As1954-07-194

Battara touched on the alignment and crossover of faiths and worship in the regions and I had my doubts about Garuda being the correct term for these and part of me still does to some degree, perhaps it is spot on.

Correct me if I am wrong but Garuda could travel between heaven and earth, somewhat makes sense to carry this symbolism on a weapon which can take one from earth to "Heaven", but alas I don't feel that was the intent though this speculation of mine...

Interesting are the Biblical references within the script on the Kampilan and that Garuda is the enemy of all snakes... does that include Satan?
Perhaps these hilts are some very real spiritual protective motifs :rolleyes:

What I found interesting was the last Angel mentioned. Azra’il (Azrael, angel of death). When looking at the typical Kampilan hilt, there is a coin to one side... is this the coin that covers the eye when one makes the trip to the afterworld, an eye one side, a coin or token the other, symbolising the ability of the iconography to transcend both planes perhaps?
Not a stretch given the importance of the text on Kampilan in the British Museum and just how old the coin on the eyes of the dead is and how far and wise it spread...

But alas, I ramble down this road because the Museum's Biblical translations and the notation of both garuda and Jawa Demam which is the same quandary found in this thread... several lines of faith aligning in the most unusual places...
Further to this, I present the Latoks because of the Floral eye which feels very deliberately placed, which is like the Kampilan eye position discussed/pictured, and where they are both concerned, they even have the line shapes leaving the eye...

Perhaps these hulu are Garuda... I do not know, I only wanted to share my thoughts about the plausible thoughts behind the iconography of ancestor worship in these regions that share common trade and ancestors.

Gavin

Gavin,

This is a great addition to the discussion!! Again I am only making a hypothesis that the hilt form could be a representation of Garuda… but the hilts you’ve brought forward definitely add interesting possibilities. As a reminder the Garuda symbolism travels through SE Asia in different forms and the merging of imagery specifically in the Southern Philippines area is well documented. The question becomes more interesting the further we dig… and that’s what is compelling for me personally.

Please let me know when you are able to put eyes on your newest example so we can really dig into its forms and symbols!!

SS

[Gavin Nugent]

SS

It is still a few weeks away... will share more when in hand.

With regards to the Coteng "wing" reference made earlier, this is what I mean, seen in the images.

Perhaps one of our Thai readers can offer the translation?

A Tajong drawing showing the same area, which is a large carved panel on the Tajong.

The last image, similar side panels are found on this Jambi Penghulu... apologies for the orientation of the image, just how it uploaded...

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.

[kino]

Here’s an odd one.
Small in size. Brass / copper alloy blade. Carving on the hilt could be a Tree of Life motif.

[kai]

Hello Albert,

You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread. ;)

Here's another example with heavily stylized pommel (from Lonna's & Dave's collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17894).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Here's an example with a really diminutive pommel.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.
I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

[kino]

Hello Albert,

You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread. ;)
Regards,
Kai

OOPS!

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello Gavin,


I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion.

Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion.

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

225595


The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak. :D

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.

225595


The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak. :D

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

Hi Ian,

I've not yet any foot in either camp as to what the symbolism actually is, only what I see with what was previously presented and how I view iconography within this thread.

I think the visual references in a number of threads I've provided do suggest that it could well be... but I make the propositions because I am interested in insights about such things and to promote discussion.

The truth of the matter is, without a time machine, we will never really know... however discussion is important to develop idea and look at parallels within regions that share different cultures.

Like that Biblical inscription on the Kampilan, although drawn from the Koran, a very atypical thing to find as was the notion that it's hilt could potentially have been a Garuda representation, just as these hilts/pommels could be... it's all chicken/egg stuff though...

A good perspective, a discussion that has been ongoing for two hundred years, perhaps longer.
https://ayalamuseum.org/collection/10342327#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20claimed%20that, of%20the%20Hindu%20god%20Indra).

Looking at some of the humanoid "Jawa Demam exotic hilts presented, could they actually represent angels and the floral motifs and tree of life motifs or mirror panels be symbolic of paradise.
Gabriel is particularly noted in the Koran and is the most important angel in Islam. The Angel Jibreel’s main responsibility is to communicate the Words of Allah to His prophets.
That would be pretty potent symbolism to carry.

More thoughts on the subject.

Gavin

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).
Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.


A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.
Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).


I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Kai,

Hello Gavin,

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.

I'm in the OTOH basket... they've already been presented and the type require context. Further to this, from the type presented, there have been other related type thrown in because of regional crossovers.

Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.Kai

Indeed, almost anything is plausible within the time and place parameters.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).

Where the Malay states are concerned, I note The Spirit of Wood and the Bunja Tanjong flower. See Spirit of wood, page 10 and numerous other references in the index.


I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai


Thanks for the ongoing discussions.

[Gavin Nugent]

Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far.

I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu.

I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation.

I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time.

Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu.

When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started...

Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him.

Edit note **Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings**

[Gavin Nugent]

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

[Gavin Nugent]

I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

[kai]

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....
Apologies, Gavin - too much on my plate and just forgot to follow up.

[kai]

Thanks, Gavin, for keeping this going!

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....
Yes, it has been my working hypothesis, that these hilt styles might likely be related. Not sure whether one developed from the other or possibly both from any earlier ancestral style.

There are strong historic links between the (especially eastern) Malay Peninsula, Brunei, and Bangsa Moro.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Another from the Thai Museum with similar but simple features.

Given the upright Royal Ligor types known too, I'm curious to know what is the oldest datable tapak kuda hulu type?

[kai]

Hello Gavin,

Another from the Thai Museum with similar but simple features.

Given the upright Royal Ligor types known too, I'm curious to know what is the oldest datable tapak kuda hulu type?
From the pics, it looks like a Sumatran keris that just ended up in a Thai museum. Exotic arms in general did quite commonly find their way into foreign rulers' collections.

The Melayu tapak kuda hilt doesn't seem closely related with the Moro hilt discussed here nor the latter's likely relative from NE Malay Peninsula. All appear to be quite old styles.

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello Gavin,


From the pics, it looks like a Sumatran keris that just ended up in a Thai museum. Exotic arms in general did quite commonly find their way into foreign rulers' collections.

The Melayu tapak kuda hilt doesn't seem closely related with the Moro hilt discussed here nor the latter's likely relative from NE Malay Peninsula. All appear to be quite old styles.

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

I understand the hulu style discussed to be of Sumatran Origins that spread to other regions and became embedded in society.

The Upright Royal ligor styles also carry similarities.

The hulu styles are found on a keris type associated with the headsmen, ruling class of the regions.

Specifically looking at the crown on this last example and more overly the Spirit of Wood example, there is a remarkable likeness to several facets of these archaic Sulu hilts.

The one above for example, it is akin to the manner in which the top of the ivory ones in the very first post, albeit lacking a dorsal fin.
This is seen to within the precious metal Sulu types too...

There is deeper meaning to everything is centuries past.
Artistic licence aside, nothing was random and all art carried symbolism.
I am certainly curious as to the deep meaning of these crown like carvings which in turn may pave roads to further discovery.

There is a lot to ponder.

Gav

[SanibelSwassa]

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Gavin,

I wanted to take a second to thank you and others for the wealth of thought and effort put into discussing this topic and for the willingness to explore. I apologize for being MIA and will try to continue to at to the discussion as I find new examples and evidence. I still lean toward a root based outside the traditional muslin influence, but obviously a firm answer may not ever be attainable. However, there is joy in the journey!!

[Gavin Nugent]

Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.

Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these?

[Gavin Nugent]

A previous thread relating to one of the first in this thread presented here for discussion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4443

Seems a long time member previously owned it.

I'm definitely on board with Michael's Sabah assessment.

These continue to be discussed offline where more ideas and data are passed about.

I see them thus far as Labuan influenced too when looking at the top motif on the crown, it is a reoccuring theme from the region, just as that design is also seen in Sabah weaving too.

Some aspects of the motifs are seen in old Bugis drawings and carving which make sense given the large sea faring nation and the Maritime Silk Road running through Indonesia and SEA, but overall the style is unique.

Brunei being the longest power base behind the regions and the English disruptions in the 19th century, it makes sense when seeing these on both sides of the fence so to speak, as I believe there are a couple that saw service under the British navy, and others, as noted at the start of this thread as being taken from Sulu pirates on the Sabah coast lines by Naval staff on various vessels

[Gavin Nugent]

Just bringing a couple of past links with some relevance together.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=268885

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15307

[Gavin Nugent]

Other links of the material seen within this thread and others seen within.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14672

[David]

Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.

Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these?
Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?

[Ian]

Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?I agree David. However, function can have some elegance to it.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gents.

I can appreciate this given space between 4 fingers, and be swayed to consider this but when you consider examples such as this;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=268839&postcount=13

There is no practical application like grip enhancement?

And this one in Kino's collection, does the odd spacing really provide that much of a better grip when the hooked pommel provides just as much?

Idle thoughts thrown out for discussion.....

[Gavin Nugent]

So, a long long road digging, looking, reading, speaking with others and today this presents whilst researching a Kampilan.... there mostly goes my Sulu origin thoughts about the hulu....

First, another old thread of Alberts unique Chevron Kris dressed in the same manner as the metal hilted one he has. LUCKY and diligent Chap!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22874&highlight=piang

Albert's other stunner

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

Battara's Datu Piang Kris

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17772&highlight=piang

One Gustav discussed a while ago. One Chris had I believe.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

The golden one I was lucky enough to obtain.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=279769&postcount=68

A photo of Datu Piang, from the University of WI I believe.
A couple of zoom details clearly showing his entourage both wearing and bearing Kris with this hilt type.

SO, with consideration to the Holstein Sulu example, and others of the similar type, found in other materials, provenanced to the Sulu and Sulu coastal areas of Borneo... what's the relationship regionally and historically.
I understand the Maguindanao people are spread far and wide. It is the common thread of timeline of this design influence that intrigues me.

PS, THAT whalebone Kampilan and the stunning scabbard with carry handle may need it's own thread! Simply stunning....

[Ian]

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali. Technically, Piang was subordinate to Ali (hence Ali in the center of this picture). I recall reading somewhere (maybe 20 years ago) that the Maguindanao Sultanate was closely linked to the Brunei Sultanate in the late 19th/early 20th C..

[Gavin Nugent]

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali.

Ok Ian.

Ali dies before this photo was taken.

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0199n64c&chunk.id=d0e1381&toc.depth=100&toc.id=d0e1343&brand=ucpress

https://maguindanaopride.wordpress.com/tag/datu/

Certainly looks like Datu Piang to me.

One of his known personal Kris is also being carried in the image.

The sheer depth and breadth of trade Datu Piang conducted throughout the the entire Sulu via trade merchants was vast... recent reading about the power and influence, tied with maritime entities and loyalties he had, could very well explain why these hulu are found as far and wide as they are.

[David]

I have to agree with Gavin on this one Ian. That does not look like Datu Ali (see pic below) in the center and since he had been dead for 9 years when that photo was apparently taken (1914) it couldn't be him.
BTW, that looks like an entourage not to be trifled with. ;)

[Ian]

Ok Ian.

Ali dies before this photo was taken.

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0199n64c&chunk.id=d0e1381&toc.depth=100&toc.id=d0e1343&brand=ucpress

https://maguindanaopride.wordpress.com/tag/datu/

Certainly looks like Datu Piang to me.

One of his known personal Kris is also being carried in the image.

The sheer depth and breadth of trade Datu Piang conducted throughout the the entire Sulu via trade merchants was vast... recent reading about the power and influence, tied with maritime entities and loyalties he had, could very well explain why these hulu are found as far and wide as they are.Thanks Gavin. I guess the date of death eliminates Ali. :D Datu Piang is certainly present, standing on the right of the central figure. These pictures were often carefully staged, with the most locally important person in the middle. I will need to go back and look at my Datu pics from that era. Ali and Piang were raised together in the Sultan's household.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gavin. I guess the date of death eliminates Ali. :D Datu Piang is certainly present, standing on the right of the central figure. These pictures were often carefully staged, with the most locally important person in the middle. I will need to go back and look at my Datu pics from that era. Ali and Piang were raised together in the Sultan's household.

It will be interesting to see what you turn up there Ian.

I've some speculation about the young figures front and centre.

Datu Piang had many children to many wives. Data I suspect can be inaccurate, but within reason. I read that he had 19 wives & 34 children, although only a few reached any prominence.

Those young men front and centre could be family, as was the norm within Datu circles to appoint family, and provide with rank and title.

Given that the youth to the left, within the photo above, carries a kris with same hulu design as the Kris being carried by the sword bearer, I suspect he is very close to Datu Piang.

When I look at one of the better known image of Datu Piang from 1899, and the young boys brought forth for the photo, clothed as Datu Piang is, and a third child behind Datu Piang, it could be these two boys later in life who are pictured in the group. The gent to the far right could be Datu Piang's Pandita???

[Ian]

Thanks Gavin. The handsome guy next to Piang, the officer (?) with the moustache, looks like J.J. Pershing who took up his post in Mindanao in the second half of 1899.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Gavin. The handsome guy next to Piang, the officer (?) with the moustache, looks like J.J. Pershing who took up his post in Mindanao in the second half of 1899.

The other interesting thing is Piang was well known for gifting all sorts of things, including weapons, from Lantaka to knives depending on the rank or importance of the US Officer. Could the double lantaka under Piang's foot is one such gift.

[Ian]

The other interesting thing is Piang was well known for gifting all sorts of things, including weapons, from Lantaka to knives depending on the rank or importance of the US Officer. Could the double lantaka under Piang's foot is one such gift.Could be. The two lantaka are a matched pair with the external spiral grooves going in opposite directions. They look old but perhaps still serviceable. They would have made a handsome gift for an American officer. Piang was an astute reader of people, but I doubt he would have foreseen that Pershing would become a four star General and hold the position of General of the Army!

[Gavin Nugent]

Could be. The two lantaka are a matched pair with the external spiral grooves going in opposite directions. They look old but perhaps still serviceable. They would have made a handsome gift for an American officer. Piang was an astute reader of people, but I doubt he would have foreseen that Pershing would become a four star General and hold the position of General of the Army!

It was noted lantaka were only for Generals.

I suspect Taft probably took some fine things home with him after his introduction with Piang.

Junior officers were not left out either, they received Chickens most commonly.

[Gavin Nugent]

Could be. The two lantaka are a matched pair with the external spiral grooves going in opposite directions.

Ian, is a "Matched" pair the correct lens where that lantaka is concerned?

The barrels are joined by an integral central rib running front to back, and are retained in a single pivot and articulation. I only see a single double barreled Lantaka.

[Ian]

Ian, is a "Matched" pair the correct lens where that lantaka is concerned?

The barrels are joined by an integral central rib running front to back, and are retained in a single pivot and articulation. I only see a single double barreled Lantaka.Hi Gavin,

Yes, it is a double lantaka (two complete lantaka joined together), which I noticed at the time I made my post. They were not two lantaka that were plain, looked alike, and got married. They were actually designed and made to be a complementary pair (i.e., "matched"), albeit joined together into a single entity.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Gavin,

Yes, it is a double lantaka (two complete lantaka joined together), which I noticed at the time I made my post. They were not two lantaka that were plain, looked alike, and got married. They were actually designed and made to be a complementary pair (i.e., "matched"), albeit joined together into a single entity.

Thanks Ian,

I struggle with the terminology personally. (INSERTING BROKEN SHRUG EMOJI)

[Gavin Nugent]

Another for reference.

[kino]

Blade - 17.75 in.
Pommel - carabao horn