1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[JT88]

Good morning everyone! Trying to do some research on my latest acquisition and find some recommendations of sources to check.


This is an unusual piece as the blade is a "classical" Ottoman blade that could be as old as 15th century, certainly 16th century. There is no unit distinguishing marks on it. Mamelukes became fashionable post-Waterloo for the recently converted lancer units. Some units had been carrying them as early as 1805. Thus the options are 9th, 12th, 16th, and later 17th lancers. The fittings look to me to be generic. The 1822 regulation was like most regulations after the fact when the style began. This sword could be immediately post-Waterloo, and given its characteristics, no expense was spared by its owner. The leather on the scabbard shows a lot of aging but is likely an in-period replacement of the original velvet. Evidence of probable campaigning, along with the wear to the sheath rings. I'd guess this thing spent some time in India, though with which unit who knows.

Richard Dellar doesn't speak much on these swords, so the reason I'm here is to ask if anyone has some more references on these?

As you can see from the first picture the sword has some active rust, I gave it a light clean carefully avoiding the small remnants of writing. I was able to trace the writing and have it translated. It says "No one is the owner of everything and earth rather than Allah"

Cheers

[Jim McDougall]

These are pretty amazing sabers JT, and frankly seldom acquired by other than the most discerning collectors. While in my earlier days I did have one with the usual ivory mameluke style hilt, I regarded it as the 1831 pattern for staff officers (Robson, 1975). It was apparently through one of the outfitters in India, which seem most often in Calcutta (it may have been Harman, but of course Manton was more prevalent).

Actually Richard Dellar does address a number of these type officers 'mameluke' hilts in "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912" the companion volume (2019) to his remarkable reference book earlier.
His references refer of course to specific examples and details pertaining to their owners, and outstanding photos of each example.
Many have the 'stepped' tip of the distal third of the blade, which was of course from the Turkic style blades of India and often on tulwar blades.

This blade feature became popular in England during the early development of the British regulation patterns, and especially with officers, whose carte blanche latitude with privately commissioned swords permitted such variations.

As you note, the mameluke style saber was much favored by both French and British officers after the Egyptian campaigns 1798-1802, and the trend to adopt the form became popular in following years. The early example you note was by Samuel Brunn, Charing Cross, London in 1805.
The 1822 regulations prescribed these style hilts for the newly formed lancer regiments (9th, 12th and 16th light cavalry).

These 'stepped' tip blades were being produced in Solingen for England in earlier years as seen in a number of officers sabers produced in the earlier years of the century. These seem to have been intended for EIC officers, but these blades were also used for the group of sabers (27) for the 10th Hussars in 1808.

It seems most likely your example has an Indian tulwar blade from India which reflects the style being reproduced in Germany for England as seen in these examples pictured, on the left is the 10th Hussar pattern. The group of these blades were in England some time before 1808 so it seems apparent Solingen was producing early in the century. The next is what is believed a somewhat limited type of saber believed for EIC about 1800 (as noted by Wilkinson).
At this point I would suggest this is a Turkic type blade from India rather than Ottoman, and a remarkable example using a tulwar blade. As far as I know these instances were quite unusual.

[kronckew]

For reference, the UK 1831 pattern Mameluke sword for general officers of Major General and higher ranks. It is a current pattern. Note the yelman-like false edge on the tip area. I believe the current scabbards are steel, with brass suspension ring fittings. They are of course, unsharpened so the Generals won't hurt themselves, or anyone else. ;)

[JT88]

Thank you for the replies Jim and Kronk!

I'll have to ask my Turkish expert friend again, he was able to translate the writing on the edge. He called the blade-style "Classical Ottoman" from the 16th-17th century. I can ask him if he for sure thinks it's Ottoman or of an Indian make.

I have Richard Dellar's original book but have just ordered his companion volume which I've heard is better for this subject. Are there any other books you know of that may be useful here?

It is an incredible sword, I am still working on restoring the wootz. It has acted very differently than my Ottoman Pala which was very sensitive to etching. This steel is incredibly difficult to bring out the wootz even with a strong etchant and I've had success with polishing it afterward to bring out some of the patterns.

From what I can tell I do not think I will be able to discern by characteristics exactly which lancer unit this belonged to. It is an incredible sword, its owner/creator spared no expense.

[Bryce]

G'day JT88,
Without any sort of marking it is impossible to identify what sort of officer owned your sword. It wasn't just Lancer officers who carried them. It could have been carried by any cavalry officer (light or heavy) or senior (or even not so senior but well-off!) army officer.

What makes you think the blade could be as early as 15th century? If you want to learn more about the blade it would be a good idea to post some better photos over on the Ethnographic Weapons forum. There are several people who frequent that forum who know a lot about these type of blades.

Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

The fittings are described as generic lancer fittings from what I’ve seen. But anyone with the money especially to mount such a special blade could essentially do what they want. These swords originally had velvet on the scabbard. Too bad it’s gone, the color could clue to which unit.

I have a Turkish smith buddy who specializes in classical Ottoman weapons. He says it is 16th-17th century maybe early 18th. Ottomans transition to more what we would call a “pala” in that timeframe.

Also the type of writing on the side lends a clue, it is an older Turkish dialect he says.

I’ve been working on the wootz today, carefully balancing leaving the aging and bringing out the wootz. It’s incredible quality of wootz, wait til I post some photos of it. Puts my pala to shame.

[Richard G]

I would like to further expand Bryce's point that mamelukes were not restricted to Lancer regiments. They were also not restricted to the army, or military in general. They were, and still are, in common use by civilians when in uniform. Thus British Governor Generals, Lieutenant Governors, Lord Lieutenants etc. when 'suited and booted' would all typically carry a mameluke. When you remember the extent of the British Empire you realise there were a fair few of these. Even now senior diplomatic staff carry a sword (generally a court or small sword), but also possibly mamelukes in the past. When you consider that prior to independence there were 584 Princeley States in the British Raj in India, each having a British Political Officer and probably staff you can conceive there must have been a market of sorts for such swords.
As this sword has no markings and no indications of military origins I wouldn't rule out it being a civilian sword.
Best wishes
Richard
PS. If British, I would generally expect to see a cutler's name on the locket. But I am sure exceptions do exist.

[awdaniec666]

I attach some examples of turkish blades from different times.

Images 1-3: 15th century (All Topkapi Museum Instanbul)

Image 4-5: 16th - 17th century (Mueso de la real armeria, Madrid + Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Image 6: 18th century (Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Note the older the blade, the more prominent the so called "hammer" by the yelman.
Good luck in your research.

Source: W.Zablocki - Ciecia prawdziwa szabla.

[JT88]

Thanks for the responses!

Every example I can find with these type of fittings is attributed to a lancer regiment. Civilian use possibility I don’t think is very high unless the owner straight imitated the lancer regimental style. There is such a wide range of non-uniform Mamelukes attributed to both the British and French I simply don’t think it likely it’s owner imitated a lancers.

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence. Later palas have the T spine style as mine does from the 18-19th century. This yelman style is from likely the 17th century. I misspoke he believes it is 16-17th century. The swords skin itself was quite old, it had active rust on multiple locations which I removed and what appeared to be possible plating in a couple places that also had rust under it thus I removed it. I am nearly complete with it, just needs some finishing touches and I can post some better photos.

Regards

[Calien]

any sources for civilian mamelukes? I have never seen one. This one I own has no cutlers mark either and most of the early ones with oriental blade dont have them, either British or French. This is what it looked like originally (many years before it came to me) when it had the scabbard and green velvet allegedly given to the 19th lancers before they dissolved in 1821.

[awdaniec666]

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence.


You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect :D

[JT88]

You should write to Istanbul then and inform them their descriptions are incorrect :D

Show me some with double fullers

[awdaniec666]

"Mameluke saber" is a term created in the 19th century Europe when it comes to weapons like yours.
You asked for the blade and I gave you hints and information which I have. You said fullers are a western-only thing and I just let well respected authors answer that pointing on their literature. Make of that what you wish. :)

[JT88]

There are fullers but they’re rare and only in very high end work, but more importantly I can’t see because you deleted it regarding fullers to age I’ve seen no indication of age = fullers.

I have the works and have read them.

[Richard G]

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

[awdaniec666]

Show me some with double fullers

There you go. Double fullers on Osman I saber. Founder of the Ottoman dynasty. 13th century.

[Calien]

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

He was a major general, and thats the 1831 regulation mameluke for generals. When you said civilian did you mean dress uniform?

[JT88]

Earl of Athlone. Governor General of Canada
Lord Lieutenant of South Yorkshire

As Calien said that is a general, I’d like to see some purely civilian swords, not retired military.

I misspoke about fullers, yes they’re on eastern swords but I see no connection between age and fullers as you originally said.

[awdaniec666]

No, fullers do not always correlate with age. But when trying to identify something and one thing is missing which was common in a period of time, one must look for other details. As I said, another hint is the hammer on the spine of the blade just before the false edge of the yelman (the little prominent "hook"). With or without fullers, another rule of thumb seems to me, as I already said, the older the ottoman blade, the more prominent the hammer when the blade has a prominent yelman. I tried to give you help based solely on my knowledge as much as I could know. I think thats what people want when asking on a forum. Maybe I´m completely wrong. Take it or leave it.

--
I wrote a little story...
Person A shows a picture of the Titanic: Look this ship crossed the ocean in 1492.

Person B: Looks more like a 20th century ship to me. These old ships had sails. This one hasn´t.

Person A: But there were ships without sails back then, so this must be one of them.

Person B: But the circumstances differ. These old ships without sails had people in there rowing all the time and they were not meant to cross the ocean. Look here is a picture of Columbus´ship. And here is another of a Roman galley. They had no motors back then, so the architecture was different.

Person A: No.

--
Best wishes and good luck
(Image Ottoman saber, blade: 16-17th century. Other parts may be replaced, Source: Metropolitan Museum, New York)

[JT88]

From my friend Osman who wants to post but his account is not validated: “That his statement about fuller and mahmuz ( hammer ) is totally mistaken, he cant categorize ottoman swords like that your blade is not 15th thats for sure it is 17th second half but fuller or without fuller is will of owner or smith of the time. There are fullerless examples belonging to 16th century also with fuller examples as well he can look swords of Sultan Suleiman the magnificent and sword of his father Sultan Selim”

Another statement from him: “ Most blades made by Kuşkadem ( khoskadem ) are without fullers late 15th Mamluk swords are with or without fullers ( Ottoman and Mamluk swords are going parallel always and Ottoman weaponry made peak as success when Mamluk smiths moved to Ottoman Empire ) and many Sultans has swords without fullers as well as they have with so we cant standartize them into bases like ohh look this has no fuller so it is late that is nonsense and funny i am into research of these by many many years of my life and inspected more than hundreds of examples belonging from 12th to 19th centuries and saw almost all types belonging to different periods”

Pictures also from Osman

Your statement that fullers were so common that a sword without is an oddity is simply incorrect.

[O. Baskurt]

Hello all i am Osman and i ve been researching recreating Ottoman or Mamluk swords and Jack showed me the comments here . Now to make things clear

- as i sent Jack by message and as he post here too. We cant categorize kilics accourding to fuller work on them. It will be huge mistake cuz from very early periods there is all type of examples. We divide Ottoman kilics into periods
- Early period end 13th to end 15th century
- Classical period 15th to 18th century
- Late period 18th to 19th century

And every periods has subdivisions this is not our case now totally different topic but wanted to explain this to clarify things cuz until late period there are all type of kilics. With or without fuller high heeled pronounce mahmuz and smooth mahmuz ( hammer ) these specs are not age related. It will be huge mistake to categorize them by age like this cuz our swords made for person not like mass production and taste of owners changes a lot i have tona of examples from different periods with all types. If you want to date the blade mostly go for decorations style of inlay, caligraphy materials used forms of decorations if no decoration form of blade or tang area is best bet to look at. As for Jack's blade it is end 17th Ottoman Blade form is perfectly matching it is no way 15th century i told him that already also sorry but we didnt adopt fuller works from western we had them even in ancient blades too. His blade has koftghari style inlays on it earlier blades doesnt have these type of ornaments they have groove cut inlay type. Inlay can be added later on too but in this case there always leave signs of old inlays cuz erasing them makes steel weaker and most cases they cant go deep on cleaning. So hope this small info gives you hint and you dont argue on a funny case like this :)

[Jim McDougall]

As well pointed out, the 'mameluke' style saber, named for its styling influence purportedly from the famed Mamluk warriors in Egypt during the campaigns between England and France 1798-1802, became popular not just with Great Britain, but France and America in the early 19th century.

Its use was not confined to the officers of any particular group of officers, and certainly was available to other sectors including diplomatic and civilian for dress wear.

With this blade obviously being of Eastern origin, and apparently of wootz, the original blade which would typically have had the necessary identifying motif needed to identify its probable use is absent.

Here I would point out that this blade is of a 'style' that is regarded in my view as related to some earlier Ottoman forms as suggested, and more likely in that form used in northern India on tulwars in the 18th century. Interestingly the wootz steel used in many of these kinds of blades come from India.

By the term 'style' of course means that a blade of a type in use in earlier centuries was often traditionally produced in later years as well, as in many of those used in tulwars in India. That British officers in India often desired such blades for their swords very well accompanies the adoption of Indian fashion in uniforms and the weapons worn in many cases.

The depictions of these kinds of blades from the Polish references is well placed as the early Ottoman blades 'of this style' often profoundly influenced the Polish and other Eastern Europeans in their blades.

Shown, an 18th century Indian tulwar, probably Mughal and of northern India.....note the 'yelman'.
In Polish references this feature seems to have different terms which indicate its purpose, to add weight to momentum of cut.
Detail of yelman.

The Ottoman 'pala' which is a shorter, stouter version more curved and yelman more pronounced. These share the same 'pistol grip' of Ottoman 'style' which influenced the mameluke sabers of Europe. This type of hilt was also present on other Ottoman sabers with shamshir type blades, curved with tip radiused to sharp point. The term 'kilic' is a Turkish word collectively referring to 'sword'.


These are simply my observations from my interpretations and research over years, and always welcome any corrections.

As Osman has pointed out, the fullering of blades is by no means 'western' in origin, and early Islamic swords of course had such blade features. In the interpretations of the Revered Zulfiqar sword, it has been suggested the name refers to 'possessor of spines' which may indicate the blade was fullered rather than bifurcated.

[JT88]

The bottom is what we could call a “Pala” have one of those as well :)

As for the Indian manufacture of Turkic style, Osman seems pretty sure it is not.

[O. Baskurt]

Jim these type of blades are produced in Ottoman in very wide range of time period from early 16th to beginning 18th. As for steel variations they brought steels from different regions as well as they produced their own in Istanbul too there was a dimiskihane ( dimiski is damascus as well as refered to wootz / bulat / polat ) Now here is hint about this blade earlier forms has different types of patterns than later forms. Earlier blades has more P ( phosphorus element ) inside than later forms and later forms had higher carbon content than earlier versions as well as they have high Manganese inside of them too. Which changes patterning a lot in this case as myself i am wootz maker too and witnessing this in my works too i produced smiliar patterns to both lines. As for Indian blades they have totally different way in Egypt back then they dont use indian blades. As in your example photos even visible rissso area in Indian blade are extremely upside down thing with our style cuz we have unified edge all along . This blade is not an Indian one it is purely 17th century Ottoman work

[Jim McDougall]

The bottom is what we could call a “Pala” have one of those as well :)

As for the Indian manufacture of Turkic style, Osman seems pretty sure it is not.


I think perhaps I was distracted by the fact that the Mughal dynasty was founded by Babur (1483-1530), of Chagatai Turkic descent. Also the tulwar I showed has a somewhat (?) similar style of blade. The probable provenance of the 'mameluke' saber we are discussing is unlikely without any sort of defining markings or blade inscriptions.
As shown are British sabers with this type of stepped point blade along with an Indian tulwar with this Turkic 'style' blade, used traditionally through the 18th century. The British of course ruled in India until 1947. Many British officers favored Indian blades which were often diplomatically acquired.

Though the blade style is of early 'form' it is certainly not 15th or 16th c. but could be 17th-18th.
The Ottoman kilic shown with pistol grip has similar blade profile as those in India, Mughals often recognized Mughal influences.
The Ottomans had Turkic ancestry just as the Mughals.

[Bryce]

As I said earlier, these types of mamelukes were not just confined to Lancer officers. Robert Dighton Jnr produced several iliustrations of Hussar and Light Dragoon officers carrying thses swords in the early 1800's. Here is one showing an officer of the 10th Hussars 1805.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Richard G]

Here, I hope, are some pictures of Lord Lieutenants etc. with their mamelukes.

[Richard G]

When you consider the history of these lancer regiments, who all spent time in India, it seems an Indian blade is more likely. If it is an Ottoman blade then possibly a diplomatic (civilian) origin becomes more likely.
Regards
Richard

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Along a similar vein, a late 17thC early 18thC Indian Tulwar and a mid 19thC Austrian cavalry sword with an earlier, probably 18thC, Austrian made blade in the Ottoman style. Not too difficult to imagine a British Indian Army officer appropriating a similar Tulwar blade for remounting as an instant Mameluke style sabre as per fashion of the time. Equally Austro/Hungarian officers had blades made in the 'Ottoman fashion' and I have seen a few apart from my own pictured here. This Austrian one has evidence of applied gold highlights on the script although now sadly all but gone.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim these type of blades are produced in Ottoman in very wide range of time period from early 16th to beginning 18th. As for steel variations they brought steels from different regions as well as they produced their own in Istanbul too there was a dimiskihane ( dimiski is damascus as well as refered to wootz / bulat / polat ) Now here is hint about this blade earlier forms has different types of patterns than later forms. Earlier blades has more P ( phosphorus element ) inside than later forms and later forms had higher carbon content than earlier versions as well as they have high Manganese inside of them too. Which changes patterning a lot in this case as myself i am wootz maker too and witnessing this in my works too i produced smiliar patterns to both lines. As for Indian blades they have totally different way in Egypt back then they dont use indian blades. As in your example photos even visible rissso area in Indian blade are extremely upside down thing with our style cuz we have unified edge all along . This blade is not an Indian one it is purely 17th century Ottoman work


Well noted, and I am honestly surprised that I managed to overlook a most important factor in Indian tulwar blades, which is the blunt edge of the blade at the root near hilt known as the "Indian ricasso" (Rawson, 1968).

I cannot tell by photos if JT's sword (OP) has this feature or not, but this would be a most telling factor. As noted, an Ottoman blade would not use this feature.

While it remains possible an Ottoman blade could have become situated in Indian context, just as cases of shamshir blades in the same manner as favored by Mughal principalities, it would be more an anomaly.

Note the excellent example shown by Norman in the previous post of this type of 'Turkic' style blade where the 'Indian ricsasso' is clearly seen.

[Will M]

This mameluke has a fighting blade, not a dress blade for politicians. Generals and high political position 1831p swords usually have slender blades for dress. One must consider the aspects era of the blade, hilt, scabbard and in my opinion this sword does not fit into civilian use such as Lord Lieutenants, it would be a great stretch to fit this sword into that category. We must use the particular attributes of this sword to come to a conclusion rather than distant probabilities. This sword like many can only say so much, if only they could talk?

[O. Baskurt]

I think main question here is... Is it really belong to Indian Lancers. As for Austrian Turkic style sabers yes i ve seen and inspected some of them either. The problem about them they dont have true aspects of Ottoman swords they look a like but even writings are kind of made up on them ( inscriptions ) and even people who can read sometimes cant read them at all cuz it doesnt make sense also ornanets and floral patterns are way too off as well as Proportions of blade is way too off either. Jack's blade has perfect proportions of Ottoman form smooth lines true style ornaments and writings all point out Ottoman work rather than Indian or any other but there is also possibilities everytime in life and one of them are being Safavid work. Some Safavid masters were nice kilic makers too most of us see their works on Shamshir and might think about this way only but no they had kilic blades too and they were nice and good at it as well ( i am not talking about 19th century or 18th century revival works those are kind of different topic ). And these kilic blades were totally same featured with Ottoman blades also used by Ottomans too. And many many Safavid masters worked in Ottoman Empire as a kilic maker. ( i have lists of all smiths from 15th to 19th century because they were all needed to recorded in governement due to they produce weapon) Thats why i have no doubts this blade is not Tulwar blade at all it is purely as form Ottoman or Safavid made Ottoman kilic. Portions smooth lines ornaments patterns of wootz blade and many other suits to this perfectly.

[Norman McCormick]

Well noted, and I am honestly surprised that I managed to overlook a most important factor in Indian tulwar blades, which is the blunt edge of the blade at the root near hilt known as the "Indian ricasso" (Rawson, 1968).

I cannot tell by photos if JT's sword (OP) has this feature or not, but this would be a most telling factor. As noted, an Ottoman blade would not use this feature.

While it remains possible an Ottoman blade could have become situated in Indian context, just as cases of shamshir blades in the same manner as favored by Mughal principalities, it would be more an anomaly.

Note the excellent example shown by Norman in the previous post of this type of 'Turkic' style blade where the 'Indian ricsasso' is clearly seen.


Hi Jim,
For me it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a repurposed Indian blade would have this feature ground out. As far as I can remember a lot of the Mamluke style blades in question have a more or less full tang which would entail a complete reprofile of the tang and ricasso area of an Indian manufactured blade, which would not be difficult, and in the process the loss of the ricasso feature. In fact if I were to repurpose an Indian blade I would certainly reprofile the tang as as you are aware Indian blades tend to have very short tangs. Many items are reworked in their lifetime due to the vagaries of fashion and as we know sword styles are not immune to the fashion conscious. Whether Indian blades were repurposed and or reprofiled into the Mamluke sabre types in question I cannot say but I have seen blades that have been historically remounted to suit fashion or to conform to a current/changing regulation pattern.
My Regards,
Norman.

[kronckew]

... 1831 swords usually have slender blades for dress. ...


Yup, Politicians would never need to actually use a sword, and a smart general stays behind the front lines in a battle (but should visit the troops there before & after). Generals who get killed are an instant disaster for their side. Like the death of CSA's General 'Stonewall' Jackson from friendly fire and the Union Major General John Sedgwick who visited the front during a battle, was told to keep his head down as the Confederates had snipers shooting at them. He said "Nonsense, They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist" and collapsed dead from a head shot. The CSA had a few Whitworth sniper rifles, and one may have accounted for the Yankee General, highest ranking officer killed in that war.

[Radboud]

Yup, Politicians would never need to actually use a sword, and a smart general stays behind the front lines in a battle (but should visit the troops there before & after). Generals who get killed are an instant disaster for their side. Like the death of CSA's General 'Stonewall' Jackson from friendly fire and the Union Major General John Sedgwick who visited the front during a battle, was told to keep his head down as the Confederates had snipers shooting at them. He said "Nonsense, They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist" and collapsed dead from a head shot. The CSA had a few Whitworth sniper rifles, and one may have accounted for the Yankee General, highest ranking officer killed in that war.

Gentlemen, please. You are confusing modern-day sentiments with those of two centuries ago. In the time that Jim's sabre belongs to, General Officers and their staff were very much on the battlefield and had, on occasion the need to defend themselves with their swords. Napoleon and Wellington were very much present at Waterloo.

As for the American Civil war example, again not applicable in the time that we are discussing. Firearms technology had improved significantly in the intervening fourty years.

[JT88]

Thanks for all the responses! I’ve been indisposed with the worst food poison episode I’ve ever had all day today. So, besides Dellar’s book are there any other sources to draw upon here.

As was pointed out this sword has a fighting blade. Osman seems entirely sure that it is Ottoman in make. One thing I could do is see if I can discern whether the handle is African or Indian ivory.

I am also convinced the leather is an in period replacement. Originally velvet. The leather has constricted with age making the sword difficult to sheath and draw and tearing at the seam as well.

This Mameluke imo is of the early 19th century in style, falling into the 1822 regulation whether or not it is a lancers. Later Mamelukes have completely different characteristics, and all of those “civilian” Mamelukes posted were certainly dress swords and not fighting blades with characteristics akin to the 1831.

Good discussion!

[Bryce]

G'day JT88,
Why are you convinced that the scabbard was originally covered in velvet and that the current leather is a replacement? The majority of these mamelukes had leather, rather than velvet covered scabbards.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

In India, during the Raj, it would not be surprising to see velveteen used for a scabbard with a tulwar blade mounted for a British officer in the manner of contemporary style on native tulwars of quality.

As has been discussed there are numbers of these blades which are most certainly in Ottoman style with this stepped blade end (termed a 'latch back' in Bezdek)which were a traditional form seen on early Mamluk sabers. These were the model for many Polish and Hungarian sabers of 17th into 18th century using this blade profile.

Ottoman blades of this style are beautifully made, and seem almost invariably to have cartouches and calligraphy profusely decorating them.
If this is indeed an Ottoman produced blade, it would seem that such decoration or cartouche in some degree would exist. I have not been aware of the Ottomans producing 'trade' blades void of such motif, and would appreciate knowing more on the contrary.

In the 17th century into 18th, there was a notable confluence of Islamic style in the arms of the Deccan ("Arts of the Muslim Knight" ,B. Mohammed, 2008) which included copies of this style of Ottoman blade. Deccani influences were profound influences on Mughal regions to the north.

While I noted earlier that Indian tulwar blades typically had the blade edge blunted near hilt in the 'Indian ricasso', but I dont believe Rawson (1968) meant that 'every' blade had this feature. As Norman noted, it would not be surprising that in remounting, the edge was sharpened to full length.

Here I would point out that British officers in India during the Raj were incredibly flamboyant, and the carte blanche that was typically enjoyed by officers in Great Britain and elsewhere was carried to new dimensions there.
To have a fashionable mameluke hilt mounted with a fearsome tulwar fighting blade would be remarkably appealing to the hubris of many officers.

It is not necessarily the case that this style hilt should be attributed to any particular category of officers despite the regulations recommending them to certain units. Officers swords were privately commissioned and purchased, as was the case of course for civilian swords.
While an officer, especially of cavalry in that elite status, might well adopt a 'fighting sword' of elaborate character....it would be entirely unseemly for a civilian sector official to take such a step.

[JT88]

Jim the blade does have traces of gold writing on it, pictured below. The second picture was surely a maker's signature, only a faint piece remains sadly.

Osman is 100% sure it is Ottoman, I trust him on that point he is an expert on Ottoman blades.

As for the velvet, every single mameluke with this style of fittings I can find has velvet on the scabbard.

See Dellar PG 112 fig 12.9/12.10
More examples of similar swords:
https://www.michaeldlong.com/product/9th-lancers-1822-pattern-mameluke-officers-full-dress-sword/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/487936940879693718/

There are many 9th lancer's that look almost the same, hard to differentiate if its the same sword being sold over and over again.
https://bid.antonycribb.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/29/lot/10941?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F29%3Fpage%3D9

Take note of the fittings on the previous swords and my sword, they're very similar. It's impossible to prove that it is for sure a Lancer's sword but much in the same of "stolen valor" in today's garb I doubt another officer would copy the lancer's style.

A non lancers mameluke with velvet
https://bid.antonycribb.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/29/lot/10942?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F29%3Fpage%3D9

As for leather I actually don't see many with leather, the vast majority are completely metal sheaths. The lancers generally seem to have velvet, but I still think the fittings point to likely a lancer's sword.

On the auction description Anthony Cribb points to a sword in Dellar pg 109 figure 12.2 as a similar sword. This one also has leather, an early make 1807-10 for an officer of the 22nd light dragoons. It is also entirely possible this is a pre 1822 regulation sword, hence the differences.

[Calien]

Richard once again all these people hold military ranks, as a matter of fact that specific pattern is reserved for generals. A "lord lieutenant" up until 1921 was in charge of an entire body of troops, either militia or local natives but military never the less.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much JT, excellent references and well noted. I had missed your mention of the markings in the OP. I had no doubt of Osman's expertise which was well displayed in his entries, but took a devil's advocate approach based on what I know of India associated blades of this form.

It is interesting to see the profound influences this early Mamluk blade form had on European sabers such as Eastern Europe. The influence of Eastern European cavalry on other European armies, thus then to Great Britain by the transition of light dragoon regiments into the flamboyant hussars was of course profound. After the Napoleonic period, the further addition of lancers units followed suit.

So I am supposing that since this is an Ottoman blade, it could not have existed in India, and must have come from someplace else in the Ottoman Empire?
The reason I mentioned the notable duplication of these type blades in the Deccan was that that copying of the Ottoman style would suggest there must have been some presence of these in Mughal courts.

We know, as shown, that the period of 1790s was most innovative in England as LeMarchant sought to form regulation patterns for cavalry swords, which ultimately resulted in the M1796 light cavalry saber. If I recall from research, among the saber blades considered were those of the Indian tulwar.

It seems that apparently Solingen began producing blades of this 'Ottoman' style for British use for officers sabers prior to 1807.
These were used by cutlers, most notably Prosser, who mounted them on officers sabers in the expected variations in that period during the Napoleonic campaigns.

So getting back to this blade of your original post, the question remains, would this Ottoman blade have been mounted in India for a British cavalry officer? Which lancer units were in India.....obviously the 16th (Sikh wars, Aliwal), 5th, and the 21st (which were hussars at 1858 redesignated as lancers 1897).....the 17th in Lucknow. Did other cavalry officers adopt the mameluke hilt outside lancer regiments ?
With the elite hussar status and the administrative confusion of regimental amalgamations, it would be surprising if not.

Clearly this is not a civilian example, unless a diplomatic gift or presentation in which case, sometimes trophy or heirloom blades were used for their significance.

I am sure you have Robson (1975) and its revision (1996), but beyond that, the best resource for information of the kind you are seeking would be :Classic Arms & Militaria" magazine in England. The corpus of material on British sword patterns and history is pretty amazing, and reaching them for back issues, index or extracts would be best.

[JT88]

Understood, I think Osman was saying those Indian mounted blades are in fact Ottoman blades on Indian handles, but he can speak more to that.

I'm sure you've read Rivkin A Study of the Eastern Sword incredible book on this subject. Eastern Europe imitated the saber of the East, and I know Le Marchant derived his sword from Austrian Hussar blades, which they themselves copied the Hungarians who copied the Ottomans.

I know that when the British occupied Egypt in the early 1800s they looted a ton of mameluke blades (as did the French) it could've been acquired in that timeframe and likely put together in Britain.

I think we can assume the popularity of mamelukes arising from the completion of the Egyptian campaign in 1801. The French were surely bringing them home, but English troops in the area must've as well. So there is quite a wide range of time this sword could've been produced, if you have an idea when the 1822 regulation pattern went out of style that would be the top end, but they were being made earlier than that by a decade.

I think it can be ruled out from being a civilian sword, this is a fighting blade.

I don't own Robson, need to order it, but a friend did send the relevant pages to me to read.

The wootz sure does look good in those pictures! Need to update my guide, this sword was entirely different in its characteristics bringing the wootz out than the pala I posted earlier.

[O. Baskurt]

Jack wootz has its own characteristic and chemistry also forging methods also heat treat methods effect its character so much. So etching it is really tricky. As you know personally i have many kilics from every period in my possession and almost all had different way to etch
Last kilic i own you withnessed by yourself end 15th century Mamluk kilic made by Mastersmith Misri which is really rare piece and only few in the world and its patterns was really hard comer as well cuz all his blades are like this cuz it is the chemistry. Another 16th century Ottoman kilics i owned i needed to etch them almost all with different etchants 18th 19th century blades i owned i had to etch with totally different and shamshirs were different as well cuz masterssmiths who made them were all different. But surely your blade has really amazing wootz patterns even style of Pattern is different than Indian Tulwars. Indian iron ores are so clean ores and their patterns are more smaller which is good thing actually. Wootz is precious for us nowadays and we want to see patterns so much cuz makes piece more unique and valuable in a way especially if it is watered patterns and big patterns but back in History it wasnt like this people were mirror polishing their blades ( prevent rust cuz they dont have access to tools like we do nowadays ) even at some point seeing patterns were kind of shame and smaller the pattern more quality the steel was.

[Bryce]

Here is another example with a Persian? wootz blade, silver gilt mounts and leather scabbard.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

Here is one marked to an officer of the 82nd regiment of foot.
Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

Two good examples Bryce, is the first one marked to anyone? It does appear maybe to be a shamshir but Osman would know for sure.

Did either of these have dates? The few examples of leather worked scabbards are claimed to be before the 1822 regulation. All of the swords I've seen after are metal/velvet scabbards.

As for the .. let's call them acanthus leaves, that's what Cribb called them on the scabbard, this design I have solely seen on Lancer's marked blades see Dellar Pg 111-112 fig 12.6-7 12.9-10.

The other assumption we can possibly make is a timeframe, the blades in Dellar post about 1837 become slimmer and I would assume more a dress blade/ceremonial role instead of fighting blade Dellar fig 12.11-16. The same type of transformation the USN officer sword underwent in 1872.

So, a piece of this puzzle I cannot find maybe you can help with is the 1822 dress regulation written in full. Dellar paraphrases it, saying "the 9th, 12th, and 16th Lancer units were prescribed a "mameluke hilted" sword with a plain metal scabbard fr dress wear and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress."

This adds to the evidence this sword is likely pre-1822 regulation with the leather. Or the leather was replaced, the leather does show a lot of age, so I take back my previous comments saying it could pre-regulation.

[Bryce]

The first one was hall marked but I can't remember what the date was. I think it was in the range 1810-20. The second is dateable by the maker to 1813-17. Just to further emphasize how difficult your task to pin your sword to a particular regiment is, here is a mameluke in my collection marked to a Grenadier officer in the 45th regiment of foot circa 1811/12. It has a steel scabbard, but who is to say it didn't also have a leather scabbard for dress wear? I have seen this same type of hilt on several examples marked to cavalry officers. You are right in that the style of the scabbard bands on your sword are similar to those found on several examples marked to Lancer regiments, but there are also plenty of examples of other swords marked to Lancer regiments, with different styles of scabbard bands and hilts. Also the examples of lancer marked swords with the same scabbard bands as yours that I have seen, also have the same design on the cross guard, which yours doesn't. I am not saying that your sword didn't belong to a Lancer officer, it certainly could have, but it could also have belonged to an officer of any number of other regiments.
Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

Fair points. At this point I think we can only break it down into knowns, possibilities and unknowns:

Known: ivory handle, ottoman blade 16-17th century by characteristics

Possibility: made pre 1822 regulation due to leather scabbard, Lancers by designs on scabbard

Unknown: maker of blade, maker of sheath

I think the designs on the scabbard NOT being found on anything other Lancers swords is semi-evidence of Lancer ownership. The regulation about scabbard material also points to pre-1822.

Incredible sword, was hoping to find more sources but doesn’t seem to be a ton on these anywhere. Dellars companion volume is in the mail.

[kronckew]

Bryce, I love that pipeback sword with the feathered tip!


I recall Prosser made similar wide pipebacks for officers in the very early 19c.

[Bryce]

I just found this image in my files. I don't know the source. It appears to have a Persian shamshir blade and the cross guard and scabbard bands associated with lancers.

G'day Kronckew,
The 45th regiment mameluke is by Prosser. Here is a shot of two quillpoints in my collection. The bottom celtic hilt is also marked to Prosser, while the mameluke is unmarked.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Will M]

Great Celtic hilt. I know someone who recently found one but won't part with it.

[Calien]

Here is a Infantry Officer Mameluke 1815-1817 thats how long the furbisher was around for so its easy to date.

[kronckew]

...

We know, as shown, that the period of 1790s was most innovative in England as LeMarchant sought to form regulation patterns for cavalry swords, which ultimately resulted in the M1796 light cavalry saber. If I recall from research, among the saber blades considered were those of the Indian tulwar.

...


And I've heard it came full circle later, when the 1796s were replaced and surplus ones given to the Indian Sepoys. When the English confronted them in the 1857 rebellion, the Brits complained that the Sepoy's swords cut very much better than their own swords. Turned out they were the re-hilted 1796 LC sabres, but the Indians actually sharpened them. The Brits had theirs dulled, if ever sharpened, by contact with the metal scabbards when sheathing and drawing. Brits kept their sabres deliberately dull when not at war to avoid accidentally injuring themselves, and the command to sharpen sabres told them they were about to be deployed at the sharp end (:)).

[JT88]

And I've heard it came full circle later, when the 1796s were replaced and surplus ones given to the Indian Sepoys. When the English confronted them in the 1857 rebellion, the Brits complained that the Sepoy's swords cut very much better than their own swords. Turned out they were the re-hilted 1796 LC sabres, but the Indians actually sharpened them. The Brits had theirs dulled, if ever sharpened, by contact with the metal scabbards when sheathing and drawing. Brits kept their sabres deliberately dull when not at war to avoid accidentally injuring themselves, and the command to sharpen sabres told them they were about to be deployed at the sharp end (:)).

Yup, in detail in Swordsmen of the British Empire great book. I have a Rijksmuseum Gill 1796 on the way currently. Along with a Dawes officers, an 1811, and an Austrian hussar, I think I'm spent on the model now :D

I love these mamelukes though, I'd like to go for some more eventually, especially one with French Egypt campaign provenance.

[Bryce]

G'day Calien,
I am very interested in early British pipe-backs. What more can you tell us about your sword? Who made it and who owned it?
Cheers,
Bryce

[Calien]

G'day Calien,
I am very interested in early British pipe-backs. What more can you tell us about your sword? Who made it and who owned it?
Cheers,
Bryce

oh yeah sure, it was made by T Symmons out of London he was a sword cutler but was only active from 1815-1816. The sword belonged to a Hubert Tiballier, the son of Francois Huber de Tiballiert a French Colonel who was put in charge of taking Haiti back after the slave revolt, he failed and was on route to France to face trial (and probably the guillotine) when the ship was intercepted by the British and he was taken back to London where he professed his undying loyalty to the Bourbons(LOL). Two of his sons ended up joining the war against Napoleon one with the French Hunters on foot and the one that owned this saber with the 60th and then the 35th. The 35th was actually at waterloo (although it didnt see combat) but Hubert was not on the rolls so maybe he joined the 35th after.

[Bryce]

Thanks Calien,
Where did you find the information about Symmons? I have had a bit of a look for him, and have found a merchant and a brass founder, but neither at this address?
Cheers,
Bryce

[Calien]

I got a lot of info from a friend on Facebook, he runs Natural Acuity and has a ton of resources for British makers.

[Radboud]

Steve Langham’s database is an invaluable resource and can be found here:

https://naturalacuity.com/SwordSearch/Makers.php?key=0ff3bffe-6cd6-4f8f-9a3d-02f606c626ed

If you click on the i button it brings you to the sources Steve has for his entry One observation though, Steve only lists dates he has a period source for, so in this instance, if T Symmons was using blades supplied by J J Runkel then he must have been operating before 1808 when Runkel ceased importing from Solingen.

[Bryce]

Thanks guys,
He isn't in the 1814 London PO Directory or the 1816 PO Directory. It suggests he may only have been in business between October 1814 and October 1815. I wonder where the comment about Runkel blades came from?
Is there anything distinguishing in the blade decoration or is it just generic?
Cheers,
Bryce

[Calien]

No nothing, lots of foliage but not even the GR on it. Pretty unique in that sense I'm guessing because he was French? Also yes Steve is doing a really amazing job with his database, I promised him I would write up an article about this sword but my writing skills suck as you can see lol.

[JT88]

Well I got an expert opinion and they said: “It is of the earlier form of c. 1805 period, but likely 1810-20. Without the regimental devices in motif it is hard to say, but the motif in your fittings resembles one from the 9th Lancers.”

I think this is as far as deduction can carry us on this Mameluke. The blade may have been acquired during the second Egypt expedition in 1811. The British did loot a lot of blades then, then put together back in England. As for the scabbard motifs, if they are ONLY found on lancer blades. I think it can be assumed this was a lancer’s, though of which unit I’ll never know. Glad to have stirred some healthy discussion here. Calien has many beautiful Mamelukes. I’d be happy to post my Pala here but there isn’t anything to learn on that one.

[Bryce]

G'day JT88,
The 11th Hussars also had similar motifs on their scabbard bands and cross guards. I think you can call it "in the style favoured by light cavalry officers", but you can't narrow it down to just Lancers.
Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

Where do you see the 11th Hussar example?

[Bryce]

If you google "11th Hussars mameluke" you can find several examples on the web.

Going back to Calien's mameluke by T Symmons 102 Pall Mall, I stumbled across an example on the net which does have a Runkel blade. Either Symmons was in business before 1815 or he was using old stock?

Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

I did, and I see no 11th Hussar mamelukes that have the same fittings??

[Bryce]

You are right. The 11th Hussars sword I posted above has exactly the same design on the crossguard (with the addition of the Egypt battle honour) as marked 9th Lancers examples, but the scabbard bands have a similar, but not the same motif.
Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

Well guys I appreciate all the responses! The detective work is always fun, if not the best part about collecting antique weapons, though I want to consider myself a historian and not an antiquarian so the research will always continue, but this has come to an end for now at least.

I did my write-up on the piece and posted it to SBG

Cheers!

https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67021/1822-regulation-british-mameluke-sword

[Jim McDougall]

Well guys I appreciate all the responses! The detective work is always fun, if not the best part about collecting antique weapons, though I want to consider myself a historian and not an antiquarian so the research will always continue, but this has come to an end for now at least.

I did my write-up on the piece and posted it to SBG

Cheers!

https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67021/1822-regulation-british-mameluke-sword


This is an absolutely brilliant look into these most interesting and attractive sabers JT!!! It makes very clear the resounding influence that these swords made on the British and French, and that Wellington, one of the most admired British leaders of his time, set the pace for these to become such prized swords in the British army.

Thank you for sharing this here! Your example of the mameluke saber becomes so much more appreciated with this colorful background.

[JT88]

This is an absolutely brilliant look into these most interesting and attractive sabers JT!!! It makes very clear the resounding influence that these swords made on the British and French, and that Wellington, one of the most admired British leaders of his time, set the pace for these to become such prized swords in the British army.

Thank you for sharing this here! Your example of the mameluke saber becomes so much more appreciated with this colorful background.

Thanks, Jim! Your help was instrumental!