Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

[M ELEY]

Hello folks! Here's the newest member of my collection (straying a little from the naval/pirate, but there were many Scots who were privateers!)

Here we have a nice early 18th century basket hilt, probably made during the first quarter of the century (1700-25). The piece measures 35" overall with a 29" blade. The blade is classic German import, with a lenticular profile, unmarked, rounded tip and broad flat ricasso. Note the pommel is an early form of squat muchroom form. I have heard many speak of 'munitions-grade pieces' made in direct response to the Rebellion (used on both sides, BTW. Not all clans embraced the Bonny Prince!), but I think mine is nicer than some of those rougher examples.

You will note the nice piercings of hearts and dots to the side plates, as well as the merlons/fish tails, ridged decorations to the plates and bars. Interestingly, this example is missing two items, the so-called wrist guard to stop the slashing blow used by Scottish fencers (mine appears to have never had one. These wrist finials started popping up around 1700, with some earlier baskets actually braising them on later) and also the 'additional rear guard'. I attribute this to the early pattern and also this provincial weapon's no-nonsense creation as rebellions loomed. You will note that, as with the missing wrist guard, there doesn't appear to be any indication with this basket ever had the 'additional guard', no evidence of damage/removal, etc. I've seen several other types missing the additional rear guards, including the 'S' bar types which seem to never have them, on several British baskets and on at least two classic Scot examples.

The basket is tight and probably made for a smaller hand than mine (I've 5' 11''). My hand fits, but you can see there isn't any extra room! I'll post a pic of my other basket hilt for comparison soon. Note the original leather grip with double strand twist wire. The overall pattern of the basket would be the 'Glasgow style', meaning flat noodle-like bars nicely braised and the flaoting bars resting uder the grooved slot just under the pommel (another early feature). The overall impression is one of a basket created by garrison smiths imitating the 'masters' in Glasgow. The nice patina and some damage (cracked main knucle guard with inner basket reinforcement, minor damage to blade, chips, etc) are a testamony to it's use and history!

[M ELEY]

Some more pics...

[M ELEY]

More basket hilt pics!

[Battara]

What a nice piece. You are right - some of these did not have that wrist guard. What is also nice is that the original patina and japanation is on the surface of the basket, and it hasn't been re-peened. The repair on the inside seems later but not recent, and keeps that part together.

Would you post pics of the whole piece please?

[M ELEY]

Thanks so much for commenting, Battara. I will snap a few more shots of the whole piece and also of my other basket just for comparison. I truly love this sword and I love the stories of how many of these old baskets were hidden after the '45 Rebellion when they were basically made illegal to own. What stories it might tell! :cool:

[colin henshaw]

Great sword, Mark. Congratulations !

[M ELEY]

Great sword, Mark. Congratulations !

Thank you, Colin!:)

[M ELEY]

Here's the whole sword plus my 'S' guard basket for comparison of size, grip wrap, etc. Note this other basket also lacks the 'additional rear guard' bars.

I hadn't noticed until I was looking at the pics that my new broadsword blade is set at a slight angle to the hilt, as evident in the second pic below. This is again an early feature and I begin to wonder if this might place the dating closer to c.1700!!

[M ELEY]

Still more. What really speaks to me about these pieces was the turbulent time in which they were created. The old ribbon-hilt style of basket was transitioning into these forms and after the '45 Rebellion, baskets would rapidly become plainer, more functional. Gone would be the heart piercings, merlons and square cuts found on these types. Compare a Drury basket of the Blackwatch ca. 1770 for comparison (no less magnificent, just not the same decor).

Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection!

[Battara]

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

[M ELEY]

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

Excellent point as well. I forgot to thank you for your insight on the original peened tang. I know so many of these baskets saw major makeovers and repairs over the years (bars cut out, replaced pommels, repalced grip materials, blade shortening/rforging, etc. In a way, those points alone attest to how important and cherished these items were.

[colin henshaw]

Mark, I know very little about Europeans swords ... about the blade, is it a Solingen production ? any marks, running wolf etc ? Did they make sword blades in Scotland at all ?? The blade seems to have an early look to it...

[M ELEY]

Hello Colin. It is my understanding that the vast majority of blades coming into the British Isles at this time were of German manufacture. This blade apears to be a common pattern, of lenticular form () in cross section, plain, unmarked (some will cry "where are the king's head marks?! Where is the 'Andria Fererra' markings and Latin symbols?! Many blades were completely unmarked. See Neumann's Guide, also Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows for other unmarked examples) Two classic characteristics of a German blade are the broad ricasso and rounded tip on this one (I used to own two Spanish 'bilbo' broadswords with imported German blades with same rounded tip).

[Jim McDougall]

There were not really any blade forgers in any degree in the British Isles until the mid to latter 17th century, these being the Hounslow makers who who primarily Germans brought in, later the Shotley Bridge makers. During the English civil wars shops in Oxford and one or two others began, but again with mostly German makers.

In the early 18th century the shops in Birmingham began, but even by the second half of the 18th century there were only three (possibly four) sword blade makers were were English. The Hounslow shops were long gone, and Shotley stubbornly hung on through the 18th c. but faltered away by early 19th.
By this time Birmingham was bustling and British blade making had taken hold.

As far as Scotland, there were never blade makers there, just 'sword slippers' who used foreign blades and made hilts, much as in most places where cutlers used blades from known blade forging centers.
Sword making was seldom a 'comprehensive' industry, but used components made by others and assembled them together.

The rounded tip on 'arming' sword blades was as Mark notes well known on German blades on these times, and designed primarily for more surface in slashing cuts, key in Scottish swordsmanship.

[M ELEY]

Thank you, Jim, for coming in on this one. I know you are the expert when it comes to the Scottish pieces. I had forgotten about the German smiths of Houndslow, but, as you said, they were long gone. I am unfamiliar with the Scottish fensing style with basket and hope to find information on it, especially pertaining to the slashing cut and tageting the opponent's hand inside the basket (thus, the need for the later wrist guard).

[Jim McDougall]

I'm surely no expert on these Capn, but thank you! I do clearly have a passion for them, and though I have tried to study them for many years, their history is complex and elusive.

In reading through resources trying to get 'up to speed' here, I wanted to address some of the comments thus far.

It is known that only some 190 swords were recovered from the field at Culloden, but over 1800 men were killed, of over 6000 troops. In the aftermath, there were paltry numbers of swords surrendered, 25 here, 50 there. Scholars insist the numbers of swords recorded were relatively few compared to muskets.
However, some insights into the battle are found in "How the Scots Invented the Modern World", A.Herman ,2001:
pp.152,53;
paraphrasing the author, ' the clans maddened by the shelling, could no longer be held back and charged like wildcats into the British lines...most came too fast to use the muskets they were carrying....in thier bloodlust they threw their firearms away'.

'..the Scots hacked at muskets with such maniacal fury that down the line men could hear the clang of swprd on barrel'.

"...clansmen blindly hacking and thrusting as choking smoke closed around them....dreadful to see swords circling in the air as they were raised from strokes'.

Clearly, while many writers presume from records that the numbers of muskets known to have been with the Jacobite forces, that these were the predominant arm......the Scots would not have simply carried a musket....without their faithful basket hilts.
As seen here, in the fury of battle, they deferred to their distinct weapon, the sword.......'and threw muskets away'.

So what then became of the probably considerable number of swords of the fallen. Many of these men were of closely related clans, and these swords were inherently sacred, so in my opinion, many of these were taken by thier relatives and among those who fled the field.

Then as noted by the author, (p.150),
"..warriors hid their swords and targes in the heath, hoping that they or their children would remember where they had buried them'.

In most cases, these were removed to more favorable hiding places.
The 'disarming act' of that year proscribed not only the weapons, but Highland dress, even bagpipes.....for generations, over 50 years.

Only in the British regiments were swords permitted, and these, as Mark has described, were often produced in the garrison towns, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling, and the decoration in the basket hilts became rudimentary, many hilts becoming 'munition grade'.

With the wonderfully roughly done decoration in this example of Mark's, it seems to be of Glasgow form, but not of the munitions grade forms of post Culloden.....here noting that Glasgow and Stirling still produced worthy hilts for British cavalry officers in the Highland dragoon regiments.

The first Jacobite rebellions began in 1689, with uprisings in 1715 and 1719, and while Glasgow became a primary garrison town in these times, there were hammermen in the environs who would fashion thier own versions of these well known hilts. These men were of course outside the records of established hammermen.

In an earlier post, it was asked whether any Scots produced blades. In the writing of Charles Whitelaw (1934), the venerable sage of the study of Scottish arms, I found two cases which he thought were NOT imported blades.

These were (p.309, plate IV#4; plate V, #2,#3)
Both were basket hilts by W. Allen (Walter Allen of Glasgow, later Stirling).
He suggested these blades were by Allen, and not imported.
Both blades were with the favored ANDREA FERARA name, which was of course typically on the German imports, so it is curious how he arrived at this conclusion, but is noted here regarding the possibility of Scottish blade production.

[toaster5sqn]

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/Library/Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

[M ELEY]

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

[M ELEY]

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/Library/Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

Hello Robert and welcome to the Forum! Thank you very much for these references. I will assuredly get a copy to try and understand the nuances of Scottish fencing with the basket versus the typical rapier format. Much appreciated!

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

Actually the CB (=casus belli) for individuals varied, and mostly the reason was protest of the 1707 combining of Scottish and English parliaments.
Naturally there were Jacobites (those in support of the Stuart right to the throne) but many had other reasons. You're right, there were Highlanders, Lowlanders, English, Irish, and a few French. There were supposed to be many more, but only small numbers of French were present.

The muskets carried by the Jacobite forces were primarily Spanish, French and numbers of captured English examples. As noted, while they were carrying these, the pent up fury of the Scots compelled them to charge wildly, throwing these guns aside to wield the deadly broadswords.

Good note on the proscription of Highland dress and weapons, and how it would have effected the Campbells. Actually there seems to have been some degree of circumvention through military involvement in British Highland forces.

[Jim McDougall]

Some years ago while researching Rob Roy, I found that the swords actually used in the fight between Rob Roy and an opponent much younger , Charles Stuart of Ardshiel, had been restored by an Edinburgh master of arms. I have yet to find notes but what I can find so far,

While Rob Roy was born in Stirling regions, he was primarily in Highland regions in Argyll, where his now legendary 'cattle' enterprises took place. He was born in 1671, and was very distinctly Jacobite, participating in the early uprisings in 1689, and years later in 1715 and 19.
His sword was of 'Glasgow' form, and from what I have seen of pictures of it (pending) the styling, and more importantly, the piercings, are remarkably similar to those on Mark's example.

I had thought the rough apertures on the right guard were holes drilled too close to the edge, but as seen on the MacGregor sword, were intentional designs. The curious pierced device with two holes and triangular figure below are interestingly similar to the MacGregor sword also.

The Jacobites apparently had numerous 'secret symbols', oak leaves, thistles, etc. and it has been my opinion that in many cases, these were cryptically stylized for covert recognition. This may account for the difficulty in accurately describing these devices. In some cases authors will 'suggest' what these are for the sake of a working term in discussion, but more history of them are wanting.

It has been suggested that the Rob Roy sword (owned by a West Highland family in Moidart) dates from late 1680s-90s).
The Stuart sword is from a Borders family and is a later backsword.
The duel concerned the mens' activity in the Battle of Sheriffmuir 1715, and while it concluded with no fatality, Roy was wounded, and that wound eventually caused his death in 1734.

Therefore I suggest this is a Highland basket hilt, in the Glasgow manner, dating from 1690-1710. It is unlikely this was a 'garrison' make, and probably by a regional 'sword slipper' imitating the well known makers in Glasgow. Walter Allen (later Stirling) was a Glasgow maker who used these kinds of pierced devices, so clearly these were around before the '15 as his family were active there since 1680s.

The absence of the wrist guard seems to fit as well, as these period of 1680s-90s precedes the addition of the wrist guards (called a 'backward').

While the Allen hilts were signed, this one unsigned was probably by perhaps a journeyman working toward 'hammerman' status. The blade being unmarked may suggest it could be local if the Whitelaw theory of Walter Allen producing his own blades is correct, as it shows some blade activity in these regions probably existed.

The photos are:
A 'Glasgow' basket hilt c.1715+ ...note more conical pommel
This is from "Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Militaria" H.Menard, in 'Book of Edged Weapons", 1997, ed. George Weatherly, p.178,
it is noted "...it appears that Scottish armorers within a geographic area usually fabricated similar style guards like Pennsylvania rifle makers".

Next is of course, Mark's fantastic example of a Glasgow type hilt with early type pommel latter 17th c. and resemblances to the Rob Roy sword of that period. Notice how the stylized 'thistle' (?) in his example is completely pierced as one aperture (as per Mazansky, family A example) while the later Glasgow form is two holes above a triangle.

[M ELEY]

Jim, you are amazing!! Thank you for this incredible back information and the comparison to MacGregor's sword is humbling! I wasn't aware Rob Roy's weapon still survived! I had also wondered about the symbols used on these pieces, but understand that there is a lot of guesswork when it comes to meaning versus design. Perhaps each smith had their own 'totum' or variation however subtle, to indicate clan, region, affiliation. As much of this was 'forbidden' during the time of the troubles (again, if one suspects they represented more than just decor), we may never know. Secret societies, Freemasonry and various other mystical clubs were alive and well during this time period after all!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Capn, this was very exciting research!!! While my comparisons to the Rob Roy sword may seem optimistic to some, I think there is more than reasonable plausibility to place your sword in these Argyll regions in that late 17th century period.

There was of course elements of totemic, occult, arcane and other symbolisms imbued in makers markings etc. and the Jacobite symbols were simply used broadly by devotees of this broad movement. Most of the makers who signed their hilts just used their own initials, these were the Simpsons and Allen's as well as Thomas Gemmill. I think there were others but cannot specify offhand.

The symbolic devices used in the decoration of hilts were not specific to any one maker, but as often the case, they were individually drawn to favor particular themes. Case in point were the Stirling hilts, which tended to be more 'designed' with more elaborate styling. The Glasgow were a bit more rudimentary following structural form with piercings in the plates.

Secret societies were of course rampant in these times, and elements of magic, occult, etc. mixed with Masonic, religious and political elements.
These were times of intrigue, of all kinds, and these wonderful swords hold the secrets and tales of them!

[Jim McDougall]

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

After Culloden (1746), the Scots were forbidden to have weapons, or wear Highland dress, with these proscriptions in place for nearly 50 years. While swords were permitted in degree of course in the case of the Highland regiments in the British army, none were permitted to civilians.

The exception was the dirk, which was considered a utility knife for hunting etc. and as such became extremely popular. Many Scots took down heirloom blades to fashion dirks which were already in use, but their popularity increased accordingly. This was likely of course the end of many wonderful family basket hilts, and one wonders how many of the hilts were kept until the day they could once again have a full length blade.

[Jim McDougall]

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/Library/Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert


These are excellent references Robert! It is interesting that these masters approached 'fencing' but more in the sense of dueling and the small sword and rapier. It seems that 'fencing' is perhaps a misnomer as far as the actual use of the Scottish broadsword, and that actual combat protocol was most likely not present in anything other than familiarity in movements.

Sir William Hope was the most prolific writer on 'fencing' in the late 17th into early 18th century ("Complete Fencing Master", 1697) and his contemporary William Machrie also wrote on fencing about that time as well as Donald McBane (as you well point out).

It seems the most commonly thought of fencing writer was Henry Angelo, but he did not write until 1790s.

It would seem that, swordsman that he was, Rob Roy would have been familiar with Hope, Machrie and McBane, and Hope was a proponent of the duel (he wrote outspokenly in 1711 for this), which would come into play when the MacGregor vs. Stuart duel took place c.1730.

[Battara]

Once again Jim, I bow in your presence! :D

[Jim McDougall]

Once again Jim, I bow in your presence! :D

Wow Jose!! very nice to say, but no need, I walk among giants here, and we all have areas that we have chosen as favorites. I'm just so glad Mark posted this so I could revisit these things I've studied off and on for many decades..
I'm totally still learning and look forward to input from others on these Scottish topics.
Thank you so much my friend!

[Jim McDougall]

Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection![/QUOTE]

"...frequently a family heirloom-often in its second or third hilting-the Highlanders 'sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the royal purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield".
"Scottish Swords from the Battlefield
of Culloden"
E. Andrew Mowbray, 1971
Text and photos from records
of Lord Archibald Campbell, 1894
This is EXACTLY what the clans dreaded, and why I believe the precious heirlooms were carried away by clansmen. Of the 190 swords recovered from the field, 150 of them were given to the master of ordnance, John Hay, 4th Marquis of Tweeddale...........who then had points broken off and hilts removed, taking these amazing blades made into a travesty of poor taste of a fence at his estate at Twickenham House.

The house was later demolished (1888) and the blades sold to a scrap dealer, then later acquired by Lord Archibald Campbell, who wrote this in 1894.

Images of some of the blades from the terrible fence, and in an article about a Stirling hilt believed of Walter Allen, found alone and with damage to the pommel ring believed from said removal.

[M ELEY]

It is shocking to think about how many of these baskets we're lost, between the aftermath of 1745, the outlawing of swords and the unfortunate (but necessary) cut-down of swords to make dirks. That story of the remnants of the battle being made into a fence makes me boil inside! Just like the soldiers after WWII shoveling piles and piles of katana, tachi, waks, tantos into blast furnaces! The ancestral items gone forever! Why not just lock them away for later generations. We stored munitions, right? It makes me sick...

[Jim McDougall]

Capn, as we, along with so many others, are passionate students of history and these amazing weapons, I share your outrage intensely. It is impossible to study these things without being exposed to the sheer ugliness of war and the politics and the flaws in humanity that cause it.

The disarming of the Scots was not to seize and prohibit their arms, but more broadly to break their spirit and take their identity. Many of those who fought with the Jacobites at Culloden were fighting to preserve the deteriorating clan system and the social entity of Episcopalism .

Your analogy of the confiscation of the Japanese weaponry, which included many thousands of heirloom Samurai swords is well placed, and very much like this with the Scottish broadswords after Culloden.
The Samurai's sword, was the very soul of the warrior who wielded it, and as much as they loved these cherished weapons, a Samurai would break it rather than be disgraced by handing it over to an enemy.

This was, as I earlier noted, the case with the Scot's broadsword. It is clear that Cumberland's exact purpose in offering bounty for these was maliciously intended, and the heinous degradation of them being dismantled and placed in the fence of a political stooge is part of the disdain held for the Jacobites by these 'victors'.

However, as sickened I am, as well as you, in the destruction of these amazing weapons, I would note that I choose to remember the high side of these situations. With the Japanese swords, there were many tens of thousands of these weapons taken away as souvenirs by American and allied soldiers. Most of these were the treasured Samurai examples, but even the more pedestrian military types were taken as well.
For many years, there have been Japanese figures who traveled the US to repurchase these important swords, to be returned to thier homeland and properly restored and documented. In many cases, these were returned to their respective families. I can recall one instance where a katana with remarkable history and provenance was taken personally to Japan by a collector, and given to the family. Quite literally, a small temple was built to hold the sword.
I spoke to one of these traveling repatriation figures on one occasion, and he showed me the incredible examples he had acquired that day, some were over 600 years old! He actually had tears as he reverently showed me one example.

So returning to the dismantling of the Scottish broadswords to make dirks.
Think of it this way, rather than suffering the disgrace perpetrated by Cumberland and many of the victors at Culloden......many of these precious swords were dismounted, and the blades survived in the families as the permitted dirks. In many cases, the hilts, so many carrying the symbolism and heritage of the family also survived...but no longer weapons, just art or a family heirloom, not subject to confiscation.

I would venture to say that this is the very reason we have so many Scottish basket hilts (relatively of course) that survive today. While many were hidden away in entirety (as your wonderful example) or perhaps taken overseas, numbers of these remaining hilts were likely remounted with old blades in the 19th century with the new fascination with Scottish dress and items.

The blades that were intended to be disgraced in this travesty of a 'fence', however, stood proudly as the warriors who wielded them on that fateful day at Culloden. Though wounded, that pride could not be taken from them, instead it empowered their legacy.

[M ELEY]

Beautifully put, Jim and, of course, you are right. I just got caught up in the wasted destruction of these amazing pieces. In reality, this type of thing goes on even when it isn't war-related. Back in the Art Deco period of the '20's-30's, there was a complete disrespect for anything 'old'. Fine jewelry from a century before was cut up, melted down, reworked, etc. I've seen Bavarian swords from the Crimean war turned into candle sticks, Indo-Persian helmets and old Japanese incense burners turned into modern lamps during this period. What a shame...

You brought up an interesting point concerning basket hilts that made it over the pond to America back in the day. I just read up on frontier British forts during the French and Indian War. many of the officers at these garrisons had older baskets from pre-1750. Likewise, Neumann, in his monumental work on swords of the Revolution rightly shows many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek.

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2018/02/11/swords-to-a-gunfight-relive-a-tragic-military-mismatch-at-moores-creek/

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!:shrug::)

[Interested Party]

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2018/02/11/swords-to-a-gunfight-relive-a-tragic-military-mismatch-at-moores-creek/[/url]

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!:shrug::)

I would imagine the Scotts of western NC were less loyal as the Tories were rounded up and hung. Those that escaped were hunted down. A few survived after spending the war in hiding. Mr. Howard of Howard's Knob would be an example of one who lived. 40 years ago the execution of the Tories was a still a de facto school holiday in parts of western NC as they would bus kids out to visit the oak the rebels executed the loyalist on. I wonder if NC history is still taught from the same point of view?

[M ELEY]

Wow! That is shocking and very interesting information! I'm a transplant to NC and have lived here for about 30 years. Likewise, I live mid-state, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of such 'field trips' up in the mountians. The Tories were indeed hated and were responsible (along with some colonists supporting the new regime, of course) for some graphic war crimes. Many say the first real Civil War was fought here in the southern colonies back during the Revolution. I'll have to do some research on that info you gave. Thanks!

[Jim McDougall]

That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

The Highlander was probably of a local militia with men recruited by Lt. Maynard to man his sloops (two) to pursue Blackbeard in the inlets in this area. Maynard's sword was broken, and the Highlander struck Blackbeard from behind.

Given that the basket hilt Mark has posted here is from the 1680-1700 period, we may assume the Highlander had a sword quite similar.

[Battara]

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts! :eek:

[Interested Party]

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts! :eek:

What I meant was that in the 19th century with all the fervor over all things Scottish many old hilts were remounted with old blades, mostly German of course, which were still circulating around. I did not mean 19th century blades, however there were still broadsword blades available from Solingen. I have seen Scottish hilts sporting kaskara blades of the form often sent to Sudan.

It is often surprising to see how often older hilts were joined with newer blades, as seen in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962).

[Jim McDougall]

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.


The presence of 'foreign' swords in the colonies, and in America through the Revolution, and Civil War is well established, as seen in the amazingly comprehensive "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", George Neumann, 1972. The volumes of these swords had already existed in the colonies profusely after the more than a century of colonization and immigration.

I dont believe that Union forces would have had an interest in old swords, but the Confederacy was calling for old swords of any kind, and were importing swords mostly from England.

Old world traditions are still very much in place, and that is a most charming story of your mother dancing over the crossed sticks. I once had the great honor of seeing this sword dance performed by the 42nd Highlanders ("Black Watch") . It was just at the time of the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983, and it was the most stirring thing I have seen.

Another great book you might add :)
"How the Scots Invented the Modern World", Arthur Herman, 2001.

[M ELEY]

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts! :eek:

Hello Battara! I know this practice was done on occasion, but whether out of respect or just to re-market an old basket, I can't say! I used to own such a piece. The basket was the m1828 and solidly dated to the Crimean period. She had a good patina and subtle nuances of a mid-19th c. basket. She had been refitted with a Wilkinson dress blade with King George V stamp ca. 1910 along with a nice scabbard. I sold it only because it was a true dress piece and not a fighter.

[M ELEY]

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

That is pretty cool that some of the old ways made it 'over the pond' to the New World. Just as so much of the 'mountain traditions' were from the Old Country, such things transitioned over here. Bluegrass music and instruments, customs, food, even sayings were brought with the travelers. One of my favorites is the classic 'Southern' saying "Y'all", usually drawn out to "Y'alllllll"! In the South, we say proudly "It's a Southern thing!" Um, no, it's not. It is a Scottish thing!!!!

In the Old World language, it was 'Ye All', with 'Ye' meaning 'All of you' (versus 'Thou', which was singular for an individual. Thus, if being a rude old Scot, you might say "Thou is an idiot!! "Ye kin are probably idiots, too!" differentiating singular person versus group of people.

In what part of western NC did you live? My folks moved to Hendersonville near Asheville. In the county courthouse there, they have a small museum. In their collection, they had an amazing full basket hilt broadsword ca. 1730 of fine quality. It was on loan from a local family who had lived in NC since the mid-18th c. The last time I went, it was no longer on display. Too bad.

[M ELEY]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history!

Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

[fernando]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]... Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!
Post us a picture later on Captain ;).

[M ELEY]

Thanks, 'Nando. I'll do so!:D:rolleyes:

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted to add some notes on these basket hilts for perspective. The first is my own basket hilt, which was found in an estate sale in Maryland some years ago. This is of course the Glasgow style hilt (just as Mark's) and basically of same period, however the extended wrist guard has been added (probably in early years of 18th c).
The blade is of course Solingen, with the spurious 'SEBASTIAN' (Hernandez) with the 'anchor' mark. The other 'sextant' type mark is of Wirsberg, c.1650s. It has often been thought that this mark might be a sextant (found on some hanger blades, but seems the arc was wider), but bugle seems more likely.



This just added to nod toward the fact that basket hilts were indeed used at sea and this instance likely increased in the early 18th c.
In 1707, the acts which combined England and Scotland were matter of great issue of course, and the flow of emigration to the American colonies greatly increased from Scotland. Primarily this is because Scottish shipping now became powerfully more abundant, and Scottish emigrants had more opportunity for transport.

According to academic studies, there were three 'waves' of emigration, first mostly lowland; then Highland; then Ulster, 1700-1775. This is of course highly generalized, and the first Highlanders said to have arrived at Cape Fear, N.C. in 1729 (according to records of course).

The Highlanders were of course present earlier, as the news report earlier mentioned with the death of Blackbeard in 1718 attributes his end to a Highlander. We know that the men who had joined Maynard on his 2 sloops to track down Blackbeard were locals in Carolina, so a Highland member seems logical. These were not sea going crews, but local men, possibly from a militia type group.

Returning to the evolution of the Glasgow style hilt, it has been said that John Simpson may have begun this form (he began in 1683) which seems to be changing the center shields from round to rectangular, and using saltire bars instead of 'ribbons'.

The ribbon hilt (next photo) has typically been regarded as latter 17th c. however we now know they were a type earlier, c. 1650s.
This just added to illustrate the evolution of these basket hilts we now know as 'Glasgow' hilts. The more elaborate 'Stirling' hilts followed in the early 18th c. with often more artistic 'story board' type themes and decoration wrought with symbolism. While the Glasgow hilts were more rudimentary, their pierced decoration often carried far more nuanced and stylized symbolism.

Later, the Glasgow form was copied in basic for the 'garrison' (military) type hilts produced mostly by Jeffries and Drury in London, and mounted on various blades, typically German but by their time (c. 1750s) some Birmingham made., Next picture of one of these hilts.

[M ELEY]

Thank you Jim for this great information (again!). I would love to see a pic of Rob Roy's (reported) sword if anyone can find a pic. I know he was a hero in his own time, so the survival of his blade seems very plausible. Thank you alsl for the info on those Scots which came to the Americas, particularly those in my neck of the woods (there are many landmarks, counties, regions named after the Highlands and Scottish surnames as well. Your two Scottish broadswords, BTW, are amazing in themselves! They present a great evolution from mid-17th until mid-18th and beyond.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been trying to find a photo of Rob Roy's sword, but images online are pretty dismal. I do know that Master of Arms Paul MacDonald of Edinburgh restored it in 2007, and I communicated with him a number of times a few years later. I cannot yet find those records.

Most of what can be found online is the huge volume of images, discussion on the 2003 movie with Leem Neeson, which though quite good, is wanting in historical detail.
The legend of Rob Roy, was created of course by Sir Walter Scott, whose novels were wonderful, but like much of the 'written word' became held as fact. This of course then became part of the lexicon of 'Scottish lore'.

The actual duel between Rob Roy MacGregor and Charles Stuart was in 1734 at Invernahyle, Inverlochlarig near Balquiddar. Supposedly the dispute was over actions of both men at Sheriffmuir (1715) however it was actually concerning land matters. It was agreed that single combat would settle this and Charles, much younger than Rob Roy, would represent MacLaren land owners. MacGregor though older was a formidable swordsman.

In Highland fashion, the duel was settled by first good cut, which caught MacGregor below chin, and the matter ended. Unfortunately the wound became septic, and MacGregor died later (doubtful it took years as many accounts suggest, his death date was 1734).

This photo of the two swords involved, restored by Paul MacDonald in 2007, show MacGregors on the left, Stuarts on the right.
Rob Roys was a broadsword, and of course earlier with the favored Andrea Ferara blade, while the Stuart sword is a backsword, so likely later perhaps 1720s.

Interestly both seem to have Andrea Ferara blades, which of course became the pinnacle of blades on Scottish swords. This phenomenon has become its own legend and lore with this mythical swordsmith and his blades which not only were held to have the highest quality, but almost magical in strength.
Many have believed that this bladesmith from Belluno, Italy in 16th century, went to Spain, was Spanish, went to Scotland and for years trained Scottish bladesmiths etc.

There is no evidence of any of this, in fact Andrea and his older brother (both born c. 1530's) did work in the regions of Belluno and several other towns with forges, but for a well known Italian family of armorers.
Apparently the work of Andrea became legendary through a 1567 treatise on military matters including armament by Cigogna.
This led to mrerchants from London going to Belluno to establish a contract with the Ferara brothers in 1583 for set numbers of blades for 10 years.
The disposition of this agreement is unclear, but obviously, the volume of Andrea Ferara blades is significant, but
the problem is that virtually all of these blades have been Solingen products.
Andrea died in 1612, his brother Zandona several years later.

[fernando]

From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is:
" I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".

[Jim McDougall]

From all 'certainties' we read out there about the whereabouts of this famous sword, one i find wise to take into account is:
" I suspect Rob Roy had as many swords as he had hiding places ! ".



Always good to be skeptical, as it leads to further study and discovery of more compelling evidence. Typically with things historical, there is seldom a final word or conclusion. I have always favored the words, "the thing I love most about history is that it's always changin'!"

Things about Rob Roy MacGregor became expectedly clouded by the fact that he had become essentially legendary in his own time, with the novel "The Highland Rogue" (1723) and the usual local tales. With nearly a century later, Sir Walter Scott's novel "Rob Roy", all this escalated, and of course Scott created a museum or sorts with Rob Roy's purported memorabilia, which was sold to him by a hawker of these tales.

These items of course included 'his sword' (NOT this one we are discussing) and weaponry that had nothing to do with MacGregor.

The story of our sword begins with a family who went to Scottish sword master Paul MacDonald in Edinburgh in 2007, to have the sword of Rob Roy's opponent Charles Stuart restored. With that, he undertook going through the channels he of course had well established, to find the ACTUAL sword of Rob Roy.

As a professional researcher and sword expert, he did find the sword, with remarkable provenance in Moidart, where it had been with a family connected to MacGregor through land dealings etc. It was not in the greatest shape, and had actually been kept in a shed ,hardly the kind of context you would expect a much heralded weapon being exploited as Rob Roy's, instead simply a sword in a family who had given little thought to its importance.

Naturally you are not the first skeptic to think of this, and obviously Maestro MacDonald knew what he would face with this project. Along with restoration comes research and investigation. These efforts are not commonly undertaken by those who rely on the word of others to draw their conclusions.

You note, Rob Roy probably had as many swords as he had hiding places :)
An interesting analogy, however, the Scots, especially Highlanders, were not like Europeans who might have had a case of rapiers (pair) and several smallswords etc.
The Scot had 'his' sword, which was his pride and honor, much as with the Japanese Samurai.

Earlier in the discussion, we discussed the fact that on the field of Culloden, where well over a thousand men were killed and wounded, of over 4000. ...only 190 broadswords were recovered.

With this, many writers have claimed the Highlanders (rebels) had muskets and pistols, thus the charging Highlander with broadsword is a myth concerning the Culloden travesty.

In my own study of the battle, some of which I described earlier in the thread, it is clear that the broadsword was the PRIMARY weapon. The rebels, after over half hour of pounding by artillery, were pent up and furious, they had men around them blown to pieces. In a raging fury they charged, and threw down their muskets and pistols, unfired in many cases...........raising their broadswords and screaming toward the enemy. Hanoverian accounts noted the ferocity of the Highlanders, like wild animals, and terrifying.
The words of one, over the deafening noise could be heard the clanging of blades as they hit musket barrels, the Highlanders blinded by smoke and fury.

I have read accounts of men seeing their fallen kinsmen, often brothers, cousins, and picking up their swords to be taken away, these were in a manner of speaking, the soul of the Scot. THAT is why there were so few swords found on the field.

If the Scots broadsword was just another sword, out of a cabinet full, or simply a handy tool kept in key locations, like a gun..........such care would not have been taken.

That was the reason the Hanoverians wanted these broadswords, they KNEW. and why they deliberately made the disgraceful fence from the recovered blades......to show disdain to the Jacobites in the most hurtful way, by disgracing their broadswords...thus them.

TRUE, after the fact, people would of course try to hawk swords, just as other items, claiming they were Rob Roy's.......but this had nothing to do with the real Rob Roy in history.
The acts of these charlatans had nothing to do with Rob Roy, who had HIS broadsword, and not swords hidden all over the place. If he may have had others received as gifts etc., which might have occurred, they were still not his sword.

Thanks for the chance to express this in more detail. It really is pretty fascinating history, and though I've studied it many times over the past decades, it never gets old (like me) and I keep learning. :)

[M ELEY]

I know these things sometimes get shady, like the 'gun that Jesse James used' in such and such a bank robbery, but then again, MANY of these items do have some provenance. We know which dress swords Washington carried. We've discussed other famous and semi-famous swords in the past. I'm certainly no expert, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the bloke who did the research and can prove the facts.

Jim, I'm in total agreement with the Scots and their swords. To them, it was not only a weapon, but an heirloom, a symbol, a family tradition. Perhaps it was also the fact that they knew if they lost at Culloden, those weapons would be outlawed. The pride of the Scots were their swords, comparable in some ways to the Japanese soldiers of WW II, who also took swords to war that represented their culture and family traditions. In any case, I'm very proud to be a 'curator' of this sword until I also someday pass it along to someone else who cares as much about it as I do.

[Jim McDougall]

Right Capn,
Paul MacDonald of Edinburgh, who was the one who restored Rob Roys sword in 2007, has an outstanding reputation as a sword restorer, but as a Master of Arms swordsman. This venture began as the family who owned the Stuart sword wielded in the famed duel sought him out to restore the sword.

With this he had the idea of trying to locate Rob Roys 'actual' sword (not examples which had been displayed from the time of Sir Walter Scott). Through meticulous research he finally located it still with a family descended from MacGregor's landlord. It had been kept rather unceremoniously in a shed, and was notably in poor condition though intact.

This is hardly the case where someone has a weapon and is parading it around as belonging to some famous figure, but one researched and found in situ.

There are countless examples of weapons purported to have belonged to famous persons, but too often these have chain of custody and provenance flaws which compromise them. At best they can often serve as 'of the type' examples.
In our familiar studies of pirates, there are the wonderful paintings by Pyle and Wyeth which present colorful images of these characters, despite the inclusion of brass hilt naval cutlasses of Civil War period!

[Battara]

Jim, I'm in total agreement with the Scots and their swords. To them, it was not only a weapon, but an heirloom, a symbol, a family tradition. Perhaps it was also the fact that they knew if they lost at Culloden, those weapons would be outlawed. The pride of the Scots were their swords, comparable in some ways to the Japanese soldiers of WW II, who also took swords to war that represented their culture and family traditions.

Mark I think you hit the nail on the head. You made a great and accurate comparison to the Japanese of WWII and their swords. I have seen Scottish pieces with provenance and family connections go for insane prices. :eek:

[M ELEY]

From Robert's/Toaster5sgn's excellent article on Scottish fencing! Finally! An explanation of the added wrist guard to Scottish baskets and their significance to defending against the 'dreaded' hand slash. Yes, I know that's the whole purpose of ALL quillons on the guard; to protect the hand, but here I finally see proof that this 'move' to slash one's opponent's sword hand wasn't just a spur of the moment maneuver, but something practiced in Scottish fencing to get past the seemingly well-protected hand surrounded by the basket.


"The Highlander has nothing regular in Field Attacks and generally chop Right down to an Outside; or with a swinging and low Inside they endeavour to let out the Bowels, whilst every Part of his own Body is cover'd under a Target. In single Combat he aims at nothing more than disabling his Antagonist which he commonly does by chopping him across the Wrest within Side the Sword Arm, which he does in the following Manner; HE runs up boldly to half Sword, receives an Outside, and changing with his Adversary, drops his Blade below the Hilt upon the inside, draws the Edge of his Sword cross his Adversary's Wrest and springing backward saws it at the same Time."