Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

[Jens Nordlunde]

I have started to wonder a bit about how many kerise’s have been made out of meteoric iron.
It is fairly often mentioned, that some are, or could have been made of this iron, but where these kerise’s were made and used, there is mostly little land, but a lot of water for the meteor to disappear into.
When you go to India you very seldom hear about meteoric iron, although they have a lot of land and little water. The only place where I can remember to have seen meteoric iron mentioned is here:
Arms and Jewellery of the Indian Mughuls, Lahor 1947, written by Abdul Aziz.
In the book he tells about Shah Jahangir, and about a falling meteor. The meteor fell around 10 April 1621 close to a village called Jalandhar. The meteor was dug up and presented to Shah Jahangir:
I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces. I told him in that case to mix it with other iron and make use of it. As I had told him, he mixed three parts of lightening-iron and one of other iron, and having made two swords, one dagger, and one knife, brought them to me. From the mixing of other iron he had brought out its quality (watering). According to the manner of the excellent swords of Yaman and [the swords of] the South, it could be bent, and became straight again. I ordered him to test it in my presence. It cut very well, equal to true swords. I called one the Shamshir-I-qati (keen sword) and the other Barq-sirisht (lightening-natured).
Can anyone explain to me, why we so relative often hear about meteoric iron in connection with kerise’s, but not with Indian weapons?
Jens

[wolviex]

Hello!
Being complete rookie on krises, I think that answer is easy. It is because there are ralative legends and magic around krises made with meteoric iron, and I didn't hear any of them about Indian weapons. When you mix up legends and magic with attractive weapon = very popular story and weapon :rolleyes: - it's just a thought from European view, lets wait what forum "krises sindicate" (still growing stronger I think) will tell us about it :)
Best regards

PS. And by the way: it's just a second hand information, but what I heard there fall the meteor in 18th century on Java, so that's why meteoric iron was popular for some time. And it was often replaced with nickel, wasn't it ?

[nechesh]

As far as i know there is only one recorded meteor fall in Jawa, the Prambanan meteor, in, i believe, 1749. The remains of this meteor are still to be seen at the kraton in Surakarta .Special court keris were definitely made from this meteor. How many i could not say. I don't believe this began until the very end of that century. I would be suspect of anyone who claimed to have a keris of meteroric pamor made before this time. I would also be suspect of any claims made for any keris to meteoric pamor, simply because i don't think that many were made. But they certainly do exist. However, the ideas that spread that this was the original form of pamor in early keris has absolutely no evidence to support it. Somewhere along the lines, probably thanks to some European who got the wrong idea, i was spread about that all keris were made this way. Groneman, apparently enamored with the higher nickle content of this pamor after seeing court pieces made with it, imported pure nickle to the area for pamor use in 1910, but the results were not the same. How to identify this pamor has long been a matter of debate and we have talked about it here before so you might want to check the archives.

[BSMStar]

Just an FYI... only 5% of Meteorite "falls" are of the nickel-iron type, making them "rare" to begin with. It is true there is more land in India, but unless the "fall" is witnessed, located and recovered, it is likely that the meteorite will be ignored unless it is a sizeable chunk. This makes the Prambanan meteorite very special meteorite indeed, as if it were meant to be. :rolleyes:

Here are some definitions that may be helpful:
Meteoroid - when it is in space
Meteor - the light given off by a meteoroid entering the atmosphere
Meteorite - when it rest on the surface of a planet, that which you make a keris from

Nickel-iron type will average around 5 to 8% nickel and to 92 to 95% iron, and some can be relalitively soft, such as the Gibeon Meteorite from Namibia, Africa.

I hope this information is useful.

[Henk]

Nechesh,

You are right. The kerisses at the court were made from the meteoric iron. The meteoric iron was used in combination with iron. It is said that the empu who was given the order to make such a keris, received enough material to make a few kerisses. That means that there are kerisses made from meteoric iron outside the kraton. So when we talk about keris from meteoric iron, I think we can say that for every keris ordered by the court the empu was able to make 3 kerisses more for other customers.

Why we only here about the Prambanan meteor is because it was a very hughe one. The Indian meteor gave only 2 swords a dagger and a knife. That is what I read. The Prambanan meteor gave a few more kerisses. So I supose the use of the meteor for keris is more known.

[nechesh]

Henk, it's not that i doubt you. You could well be right. But i think it is important to keep this discussion on an academic level, so could you please quote the sources of your information about palace empus recieving extra meteoric pamor material whenever they made a court keris with one. Did kraton empus actually make keris for clients outside of the court? There has been so much confusion on this issue that i just can't base any conclusions on this topic based on more hearsay information.
I also don't quite get your reasoning that leads to you supposing that meteoric pamor was more well known. The Prambanan fall is the ONLY one i am aware of. Are you just assuming that there were smaller meteorites that fell and were used? Is there ANY documentation of this. I need more to go on.

[Montino Bourbon]

I have heard of one technique that (supposedly) was used in Japan:
Micro-meteorites fell to the earth and were washed into rivers; and these small nickel-iron meteorites were recovered by dragging large magnets through dry river beds in summer, when the rivers were dry. The resultant iron could be incorporated with other iron, and because of its high nickel content could be processed and refined by forge-folding.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for your answers, although not all tried to answer my question.
Master (Ustad) Daud said to Shah Jahangir, ‘that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces’.
If Master Daud could say like that, he must have known meteoric iron, otherwise he could/would not have made such a statement.
Meteoric iron must have been known, at least among some of the better weapon smiths, other wise he could not have said that the iron would fall to pieces when hammered on, and he knew how much other iron he had to mix it with, to make it possible for him to make two swords a dagger and a knife. To have this knowledge it must have been tried many times before.
Although there, no doubt is much mysticism and symbolism involved in making swords in India, I think this is even more so when it comes to making kerise’s.
The way to find meteoric iron in Japan sounds interesting, although I have never read about it.

[BSMStar]

Jens Nordlunde:

No doubt some nickel-iron type are not well suited for direct hammering. There are several factors to take into consideration... the crystal structure of the meteorite (from fine to coarse octahedrite, etc.), and metallurgy for example. The Gibeon Meteorite from Namibia, Africa is an example of a nickel-iron type that you can hammer directly without forging. Again, it goes back to the odds of the right type of meteorite falling in the right place at the right time. :rolleyes:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes I have read that there are different types of meteoric iron, and also that the one with nickle is very difficult to use, but from the structure Master Daud must have been able to estimate how much 'normal' iron he had to mix it with. To have had this knowledge, he, or others, must have tried it several times to get that knowledge

[Henk]

Nechesh,

Of course the discussion should be academic and not based on rumours. Kraton empus did make keris for clients outside the kraton and used the surplus of the prambanan meteorite they received to make a court keris. I did read it in a dutch book: De Inlandsche Kunstnijverheid in Nederlandsch Indie (The Inland Artwork in Dutch Indie) by J.E. Jasper and MAS Pirngadie. This book was printed and published on behalve of the dutch government in The Hague in 1930.

I translate for you the passage in that book: "As pamormetal was and is used in the royal countries, the home of pamorforge art, metoric iron, that contains few nickle and is known as pamor parambanan. It is kept in the kraton of Soerakarta. Every time when the Soesoehoenan or other courtmembers want to forge a weapon, often a much too large piece of the meteor Iron was given to the empu, who had usually left a very large part of it.
That's why that it was possible to buy pieces of the pamor parambanan for the very high price of fl 2,50 to fl 10,00 for a rejal (30 gram)" That means in the currency of today the very high price of 1 euro to 4,50 euro for 30 gram.

About the use and being well known of the meteoric iron you misunderstood me. Using meteoric iron outside Indonesia for pamorforging is not well known.
Jens wrote that in India two swords, a dagger and a knife was made from the iron of a meteor. What I ment to say is that the use of the parambanan meteor for pamor weapons is well known (at least here in Holland) and that "a weapon made from the meteor was considered as the true holy weapon with pamor parambanan or pamor toenggal" (I quoted the book) Pamor forging was also done with other metals. The same book mention "the import of nickle bars, the pure Krupp nickle from the factory of A. Krupp from Berndorf, Germany. When this was used the pamordrawing came up very clear and shiny. Much more then when the real pamor iron of Parambanan was used."

[BSMStar]

Prambanan meteorite is on the Finest (crystal structure) Octahedrite, around 5% nickel...
http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/earth/metcat/detail.dsml?Key=P2270&index=

Also you have
Hexahedrites - low nickel bearing (up to 6%)
Octahedrites - medium nickel bearing (5 to 17%, mostly on the lower end) and classified from fine to coarse (in crystal structure) believe to be caused by the speed of cooling.
Ataxites - high nickel bearing (16% plus) note: they show no internal crystal structure.
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/type.htm

[BSMStar]

Since the Prambanan meteorite wasn't introduced untill the 1700's... can some tell me how far back the nickel-iron parmor goes back? What was the early history of the metallurgy? Was it just Malelo before that? :confused:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi BSMStar,

Thank you for your answer. It is very interesting what you write about the different types of meteors, and the concentration of the different metals. I find it most interesting, that iron, even with a very small concentration of some other metal, can act very different when forged, and sometimes make it almost impossible to forge, if it is not treated in a very special way. When they, started to work with wootz steel and meteoric iron, it must have taken them a considered amount of time, until they had learned how to treat the metal so they could form it.
Sorry I can't help you with your new question.

Jens

[fearn]

I'm trying to remember where I read this: it was one of the contemporary knife catalogs, and the name escapes me at the moment (argh! I'll edit it in when I remember it!)

This is a sideline to the "meteoric iron" thread, but it is about the high nickel iron used to create pamor. Apparently, the volcanoes on Java cough out nodules of high-nickel iron, and that is what is (was) used for most keris blades, presumably along with low-nickel iron from other sources.

Apparently, westerners used to think that high-nickel iron only came from meteorites, and so among westerners, the story was that the pamor iron all came from meteoric iron.

This doesn't contradict the idea that some keris and other blades were made from meteorites. It simply says that most pamor blades have a strictly terrestrial origin, and Indonesia isn't a magnet for meteoric bombardment.

F

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi fearn,

When you remember where you read it, please post it. It is a most interesting turn the discussion has taken.
Thank you for your post.

Jens

[BSMStar]

Hi fearn and Jens,

Back in my college days (early seventies - I know, I'm showing my age), nickel with iron was looked upon as a sign of a cosmic source. I know a lot has changed since then... so you will get no debate from me. I knew the Empus had a source of "poor" nickel-iron that was being mined in the region, which caught my attention (how could I not want a Keris?). I guess its time for me to go back to grad school. :rolleyes:

My wife said I have to stop collecting anyway. :(

I still would be interesting to know how far back in time this type of metallurgy goes... and how wide spread it was. Thank you Jens for starting this thread.

[Rick]

I'm trying to remember where I read this: it was one of the contemporary knife catalogs, and the name escapes me at the moment (argh! I'll edit it in when I remember it!)

This is a sideline to the "meteoric iron" thread, but it is about the high nickel iron used to create pamor. Apparently, the volcanoes on Java cough out nodules of high-nickel iron, and that is what is (was) used for most keris blades, presumably along with low-nickel iron from other sources.

Apparently, westerners used to think that high-nickel iron only came from meteorites, and so among westerners, the story was that the pamor iron all came from meteoric iron.

This doesn't contradict the idea that some keris and other blades were made from meteorites. It simply says that most pamor blades have a strictly terrestrial origin, and Indonesia isn't a magnet for meteoric bombardment.

F

Driven to Google yet again . :D

Here's a page that discusses the composition of the magma that is released by Mt Merapi in Jawa :
http://www.ipgp.jussieu.fr/~beaudu/vsi/merview.html
And another locating the volcanos in the archipelago .
http://www.volcanolive.com/indonesia3.html
Last , a cross section , lots of Iron in the earth's core .
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/hazard/stratoguide/img/composition.gif

[BSMStar]

Thank you Rick!

Awesome links! But in the geochemistry, I missed any nickel bearing mineralogy... just your typical/normal Basaltic, Andesitic and Pyroclastic associated minerals.

I recall reading an article that named the location where the "poor" quality nickel-iron was being imported from, and it included the import of nickel, which didn't work out too well. I wish I could refer to it. Has anyone else seen it?

[nechesh]

Wayne, just a stickler point, pamor Prambanan was really introduced at the beginning of the 1800s.
I'm not sure about nickle/iron nodules from Jawa volcanos, but it was always my understanding that much of the nickleous pamor used in Jawa was imported from other islands, like pamor luwu.
Oh, and Wayne, if your wife is really gonna make you stop collecting, don't forget what i said about that nice Bali keris of yours. :D

[BSMStar]

Well nechesh,

Yea, its true she would like me to stop.... I said I would stop, if she would stop buying all those dresses, shoes and stuff she really doesn't need (or wear very often - it ends up sitting in the closet, you know what I mean).

She came home from "shopping" and just could not pass up another one of those bargins! :rolleyes:

Well, some how another Keris just happened to show up :D :D :D (and a Keris stand too? now how did that happen??? :rolleyes: )

But back to the subject....

[BSMStar]

Pamor Luwu rings a bell.... can you say a little more about it?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I am afraid the we are back discussing kerises more than what I started - maybe I should not have started this thread.

Jens

[Rick]

I have started to wonder a bit about how many kerise’s have been made out of meteoric iron.
It is fairly often mentioned, that some are, or could have been made of this iron, but where these kerise’s were made and used, there is mostly little land, but a lot of water for the meteor to disappear into.
When you go to India you very seldom hear about meteoric iron, although they have a lot of land and little water. The only place where I can remember to have seen meteoric iron mentioned is here:
Arms and Jewellery of the Indian Mughuls, Lahor 1947, written by Abdul Aziz.
In the book he tells about Shah Jahangir, and about a falling meteor. The meteor fell around 10 April 1621 close to a village called Jalandhar. The meteor was dug up and presented to Shah Jahangir:
I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces. I told him in that case to mix it with other iron and make use of it. As I had told him, he mixed three parts of lightening-iron and one of other iron, and having made two swords, one dagger, and one knife, brought them to me. From the mixing of other iron he had brought out its quality (watering). According to the manner of the excellent swords of Yaman and [the swords of] the South, it could be bent, and became straight again. I ordered him to test it in my presence. It cut very well, equal to true swords. I called one the Shamshir-I-qati (keen sword) and the other Barq-sirisht (lightening-natured).
Can anyone explain to me, why we so relative often hear about meteoric iron in connection with kerise’s, but not with Indian weapons?
Jens

Jens , when I read that quote from 'Arms and Jewelry' I interpreted it that the Master Smith took the meteorite to the forge and reported that 'it would not stand below the hammer' . He was then told to mix it with other iron .

Perhaps it was made into a form of crucible steel like wootz .

[nechesh]

Well Jens, i'm afraid threads tend to have a mind of their own. ;) If you reread you opening post you are wondering about keris. People tend (hopefully) to talk about what they know or are interested in and since i know very little about Indian weapons i'm afraid info on keris is all i have to add to this thread. :)
To give you my answer to your final question in that first post, i think the reason you hear less about meteoric ore in Indian weapons than Indonesian is that inspite of the quoted passage Indian smiths still did less of it than Indonesian empus.
Wayne, pamor luwu came from Sulawesi. There is abit more about it and pamor in general on this site:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/keris/introduction/wilah/pamor.htm

[Jens Nordlunde]

nechesh, you are right, I was a bit harsh - sorry.
When the exported wootz from Sri Lanka and India to places like Persia, Africa an other places - why was there no export known of to Indonesia, Sumatra and other places?

Rick,
Yes I have trought of that too, unfortunately the author does not go into details when telling about it.

Jens

[BSMStar]

Sorry about going off in a tangent.... (I think I have created a monster and it's me). :rolleyes: I think it is a "urban legend" that you can find metallic nickel-iron as a "native" surface rock on earth.

Here is a quote and the link:
Niccle (Nickel, my insert) and iron ore were extracted from the mines near Malili and were exported to Jawa, where you can still find a kind of niccle (pamor), which is still named Luwu.

http://indahnesia.com/Indonesia/Sulawesi/Sulawesi.php?code=SULHIS

It appears that mines in the area produced both nickel ores (Nickel laterite) and iron ores... that were mixed to create the Luwu pamor. Gee, maybe my old Cosmochem professor was right? Here are two more links,

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/laterama.html
http://www.inco.ca/about/exploration/laterite/default.aspx

I am sure the smiths in India would have used iron meteorites (and could have) if they were known and available. There are a number of examples of iron meteorites being used for edged weapons around the world (we have our own Bowie knife). But it seems to me that opportunity and chance play a major role in if and when these kinds weapons are made. In Jawa, it landed in their own backyard. Keep in mind that nickel-iron meteorites only make up about 5% of the witnessed falls that are recovered (and how may have you seen and recovered??), it is an extremely rare event. Rarity, I think, should guide you to the answer to your question.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi BSMStar,

I think the links you are giving are very fascinating, and somewhat surprising to me, I have not read it all yet, but they seem very interesting.
To me it seems, the more I read, the less I understand – but maybe someone else is more clever than I am – hopefully.
I am at the moment involved in another problem which is very tricky, and which takes a lot of my time.
Thanks for the links.

Jens

[BSMStar]

My apologies, Jens

In my zeal to show references (other than my bad memory), and in trying to keep to the basics... I do not wish to overwhelm anyone who is not ready for the info, some of my post may or may not be as helpful as intended (maybe a little to basic). Sorry.

What I was trying to say and show... the only real source for "nickel-iron" (that which is already combined) would have a cosmic source, like a meteorite. The mining literature from the Luwu area suggest separate nickel and iron ores... unless someone else knows and can post a source on a non-cosmic source, I would be most interested in learning about it. :)

I think karma, fate, chance, circumstances or what ever term you want to use... placed a "workable" meteorite where it did and made the Keris a very special and unique weapon that it is.

[nechesh]

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

[BSMStar]

nechesh,

Don't be sorry, the fault is mine. I know that I seem to suggest that only meteorites make the Keris "special" but... I fully agree with you! :) It’s the pamor, and much, much more that makes the Keris so special. I was just referring to the one aspect that has been attached to the Keris... it's the pamor and meteorites that have separated the Keris from most weapons... which I believe is what started this thread.

Even not knowing the association with meteorites, who can gaze upon a wondrous Keris blade and not desire one? (I know the "bug" bit me bad!) :D

[wolviex]

Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade? :confused:

[nechesh]

Aye wolviex, there's the rub! ;)

[Rick]

From the archives : :D
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here . :)

[BSMStar]

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? ASU has an Electron Micro Probe that will do the trick, but they will only test meteorites.:(

[Rick]

Your amazing Rick!

That was a great thread. Kind of fun to watch the Ti learning curve, thought important and later on to fall apart as not true...

I am still interested in learn more on how to identify pamor made with meteorite... it was a bit vague. Other than touch, are there any pictures that may be helpful? :(

We have covered a lot of subjects in the last 7-8 years .
Forum Search is a great resource . :cool:

For pictures ???
Well ....................
there's always ebay , I see lots of examples there . ;) :D

[BSMStar]

Rick,

I respect you opinion, but it seems everyone claims to have a meteorite pamor on eBay... do I trust them all as a resource? Please keep in mind, I would not know a real pamor Prambanan if it jumped up and bit me.

[nechesh]

Hey Wayne, i think that with a wink and a grin, Rick is only kidding. EBay shows us the worst of the "media hype" around meteoric keris pamor. Many people actually believe their own hype, some are deceivers, but the bottom line is that there are just not all that many prambanan pamors to be found out there.
On the question of how do we tell, i think the real experts have been very reserved on this issue. They will tell you, i suspect, i believe or it's possible this keris might have meteoric pamor, but if there is a sure way to tell, i have not heard of it.

[Rick]

Yep !
I was kidding . :D

IMO if people who have spent many decades studying keris cannot ( or will not ) tell then what chance does the layman have of discerning the difference . :(

[fearn]

My guess, based on the little I know of metallurgy, is that the only way you could conclusively identify meteoric material in a forged blade is by atomic analysis, which means cutting a piece off the blade and looking at elemental composition and the isotopic ratios of the elements present.

Even this wouldn't be conclusive, because I don't think an entire Kris would be made of meteoric iron, simply the lighter colored layers, and even these might have been amalgammated with terrestrial iron to make them workable.

I have no idea how much metal would be needed, but aside from cutting off the tip of the tang, I'm not sure how you would sample much without seriously damaging the blade. Nor am I sure how much it would cost. It's the kind of thing where I would go to a university geochemistry (or materials science) lab and have a long chat with a professor about departmental donations, papers, and the like. Someone might be receptive to testing a number of "meteoric" blades, if the money was there at the beginning and the opportunity to publish a paper appeared at the end....

[Jens Nordlunde]

It sounds right what you write about the test, only a professor would probably love it if you can guarantee him that at least one of the blade is of meteoric iron – the problem is no one seems to be able to :(

Jens

[nechesh]

I think fearn hit the nail on the head. The only way to be positive would involve the distruction of the keris. :( Personally i'd rather just keep wondering. Is the keris beautiful, does it feel good in your hand, do you love it? Life needs to hold on to a few of it's mysteries to keep it interesting. Talk to the blade and it will tell you. Do you really need to prove it to anyone else? ;)

[BSMStar]

I do not believe that the test has to be totally destructive. A small area can be "polished" and tested with an Electron Micro Probe... that will give you a chemical analysis good enough to determine cosmic origin. I really would not want to do it to my high end Keris. Also, the rub is getting it done.

Hey folks, I'm new. (Note to self... be slightly skeptical :rolleyes: )

OK. That's what I basically understood from the thread Rick brought up and other comments. But as a pamor, is there a specific "pattern" to pamor Prambanan (like other pamors) or is it time for me to give up?

[nechesh]

Recently the work of the Polish metalurgist Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski has come to my attention. He has done considerable work in the analysis of keris structure. It is my understanding that even if you were to destroy a piece of a keris for analysis you would not be able to determine extra-terrestial origin after the materials have gone through the forging and welding process. Does anyone else know of any reputatable researcher who has actually worked on this subject that has a different answer to this question?
I find the concept of meteoric pamor to be very enticing like, i believe, most do. I certainly wouldn't mind owning a keris with such pamor. But i find the focus on this subject as relating to keris a bit troublesome. Why? So many reference books make mention of it, countless dealers lay claim to it in their keris. The facts as can best be sorted out is that meteoric pamor was used for a SELECT FEW keris beginning in the 19th century. So it was used for a relatively short period of time (100+yrs.) and even then it was far from the majority of keris being produced even in that century. It has done nothing to increase the artist level of keris making and though i can see why it might increase the spiritual value of a keris, this attribute of the blade did not begin nor end with the use of such a pamor material. I guess what i am driving at is that meteoric pamor is quite a bit over-valued as an aspect of keris study. It becomes a distraction of sorts. And unfortunately, unless it is a recently made blade that you had a part in the making of, or a court blade with considerable provenence (few and far between), one can never know for sure whether it's "star metal" or not.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Wolviex wrote: Forgive me this question of ignorant European - how we can recognize meteoric iron or nickel on the blade?

From the discussion it seems as if we can't be sure, but I did somewhere read that some could feel a prickle in the fingers when toutching meteoric iron. This does however not give any garantee as you can't prove that the blade is made of meteoric iron - besides I think that a strongly magbetic blade could/would give the same feeling.

Jens

[BSMStar]

nechesh,

Trace elements are a give away for cosmic origin... which is why chemical analysis is important. Yes... we can tell.

I find it troubling to use feel as a way to determine... since these blades are older and are likely to have been etched many times, where does the pattern or surface profile from etching fit in to this approach?

Is there no visually pattern reserved for this pamor?

Jens... I'm with you, more than a bit confussed.

I agree meteoritic pamor is not critical... but of historically importance and value.

[nechesh]

Wayne, i realize you are a scientist and when you refer to "yes...we can tell" i assume you are referring to the scientific community in general. I don't mean to challenge you on this point, but what are your experiences with metalurgy. I understand that you are a color chemist, which sounds really cool even if i don't know quite what you do, but does this qualify you to make this statement? Are you familar with Prof. Piaskowski's work? He has done years of study and compilation of data on this very subject and it is his belief, apparently, that you can not tell cosmic origin in keris metals that have been forged and welded. I know that scientists are apt to disagree, but until i hear research from another scientist who has actually tried to determine these factors with as many forged keris as Prof. Piaskowski has done i am inclined to lean towards his position on the matter, not being of the mind or abilities to do such research for myself.

[Jim McDougall]

I think the study of the use of meteoric metal from scientific perspective is fascinating, and the discussion here with those of you expert in keris and Indonesian weapons is excellent!
While somewhat digressing from the scientific perspective, I am wondering if the references and descriptions applied to these blades in earlier narratives referring to 'meteoric steel' may have been intended aesthetically. It seems that in the glossaries of keris jargon there are terms that apply specifically to such blades.

In "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson , N.Y. 1962,
on p.22 the author notes, "...Forbes suggested that the damask patterns might have been inspired by meteorites, which are covered with a thin film of iron oxide and when forged at low temperatures produce a distant pattern".

*"Metallurgy in Antiquity" R.J.Forbes, Leiden, 1950

While acknowledging that there were actually blades forged with this extra terrestrial material included with regular materials, I am wondering if possibly the term 'meteoric' may refer to a certain pattern or appearance in pamor.

Concerning the empirical approach to examining these blades metallurgically, after being faithfully hooked on the television series C.S.I. and the compelling forensics dramas, I cannot imagine that extra terrestrial origins of certain components could not be discovered in the labratory!!! :)

I sure wouldnt want to volunteer one of my prize weapons though!!! That is if I DID have one of these beautiful keris!

Best regards,
Jim

[nechesh]

I hate to be the one to break it to you Jim, but if you ever talked to anyone who actually does CSI type work you would find out pretty quickly just how much of that show borders on science fiction. ;)
As far as i know there are no elements present in meteoric pamor that can not be found on earth. I think any recognizable crystalline structure that would ID a metal as meteoric would be destryed through the forging and welding process. So what would be the clue that remains to ID such metals as being of cosmic origin?
You theory about the term being an aesthetic reference is interesting, but i think this is more a case of early writers misunderstandings and repetition of the mistakes of others. I don't think meteoric pamor is meant to refer to a particular pattern or design in the pamor.

[BSMStar]

nechesh,

Thank you for keeping me honest. I have been out of that "community" for a long time... and I do not mean present my self as an "expert" to compete with any one, especially with Dr. Piaskowski. I mean "we" as the scientific community.

The Electron Micro Probe has been the main tool used in diagnosing meteorites for sometime now... just ask your friends who collect meteorites and send them in to Universities around the world for analysis. I use Arizona State University (ASU) in Tempe, AZ (Center for Meteorite Studies) because that’s where I went to school. Dr. Lewis also holds and analyzed many of the lunar samples gathered by NASA there at the Lab. I am sure Dr. Piaskowski is aware of this and the "EMP" techniques and data analysis. The question would be the sample (or how dilute the meteoritic material would be in a forged blade, then picking out parts per million of trace elements can be a challenge).

But the trace elements are a definite fingerprint for cosmic origin!

Jim,

You are right. There is no question about it. If there is enough meteoritic material, it can be detected. But like you... I would have second thoughts about testing for it too (even though it is not destructive, it creates a blemish).

[fearn]

Adding to what BSM said, the "fingerprint" is in the ratios of isotopes of elements. Although all planets and asteroids (and meteorites) presumably originated at the beginning of the solar system, they contain different ratios of the isotopes of various elements.

A big reason for this is that earth has a molten core kept that way by radioactivity, whereas most asteroids are too small for this process. The molten core melts material, causing isotopes to fractionate. Lavas from different volcanoes are, to some degree, recognizable from their isotopic fingerprints (there was an article on this in Science News recently, if you want an accessible source). Also, radioactivity at the core might produce breakdown products from fissioning heavy elements...

To make a long story short, one can distinguish between a meteorite and a rock, simply on the basis of the isotopic fingerprint. A blade is another story.

I'm just guessing that Prof. Piaskowski can't distinguish meteoric iron in Keris blades either because a) he hasn't found a genuine one yet (this is a provenance question) and/or b) the meteoric iron is mixed with terrestrial iron and/or nickel in order to form one layer of the pamor. Since the earth is definitely not uniform in isotopic signatures, mixing metals could easily hide the partially extraterrestrial origin of some blade. A purely meteoric blade would be easy to identify, but one of mixed origin would be difficult.

For the whiskey and wine crowd on this board, this is analogous to the problem of identifying the parent materials in a blended whiskey or wine, based on taste.

And before Nechesh asks, I'm a professional ecologist. I don't deal with metal isotopic chemistry at all, but I'm familiar with isotopes of lighter elements.

Fearn

[BSMStar]

fearn,

You make an old Geologist proud (OK, I’m not one any more). We didn't work with isotopes unless we were dating the material. Pure chemistry was enough, generally reported in oxides for non-metallic materials, for example :FeO, SiO2, MgO, Al2O3, Na2O, K2O, P2O5 and so on. But keep in mind the time frame... isotopes were not carrying the weight if importance as they may have today (I'm old or I feel that way).

nechesh,

You will have to forgive me, I have been in the Paint industry for 29 year now... meteorites and tektites are just a hobby now (just a few too many hobbies).

[Jim McDougall]

Oh no!! next you'll tell me Jerry Springer is staged!!! :)

Just kidding. I know there isnt much reality in the media in general, I work for the airlines so I can totally relate!!

I appreciate the detailed explanations on these technical studies. These topics have always been pretty intimidating, and you guys make things much more understandable. Thanks!

All the best,
Jim

[nechesh]

Jim, i hate to tell you this, but not just Springer, professional wrestling too! ;) When you're feeling stronger we'll have a talk about that Santa Claus guy. :D
Fearn, if i remember correctly, your 2nd suggestion for the difficulty in IDing meteoric material in keris is the one. If i'm not mistaken, this material must be mixed with terrestrial iron inorder to make use of it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

This is what made me start the topic:
Arms and Jewellery of the Indian Mughuls, Lahor 1947, written by Abdul Aziz.
In the book he tells about Shah Jahangir, and about a falling meteor. The meteor fell around 10 April 1621 close to a village called Jalandhar. The meteor was dug up and presented to Shah Jahangir:
I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces. I told him in that case to mix it with other iron and make use of it. As I had told him, he mixed three parts of lightening-iron and one of other iron, and having made two swords, one dagger, and one knife, brought them to me. From the mixing of other iron he had brought out its quality (watering). According to the manner of the excellent swords of Yaman and [the swords of] the South, it could be bent, and became straight again. I ordered him to test it in my presence. It cut very well, equal to true swords.
What Shah Jahangir means by saying 'a true sword' I don't know, but it is clear that meteoric iron had to be mixed, at least with the knowledge they had at the time.

So fearn, here we have a problem, as it seems as if you won't find a pure meteoric blade. From you posts, like with the posts of others, I more and more got the feeling, that you knew much more about the subject than most of us.
Thank you for taking your time to explain it to us - so far in a language which most of us can follow :rolleyes: .
Nechesh, the above should answer your question as well.

Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
The event you are citing from the Aziz book is descibed almost verbatum in Pant (p.218), with the combining of three parts 'lightning iron' as the meteoric material is termed and one of other iron.

In the original post you noted that meteoric iron is discussed in other references in edged weapons blades, especially the keris, but not incidents or applications from India. In Pant, (p.218) he notes.
"...no special study of weapons made of meteoric iron has been made in India so far. However a sword at present in the Alwar Museum, Alwar (Rajasthan) is said to have been made of meteoric iron".
He also notes that in one of the early dealers here in the U.S. catalog, Robert Abels (Catalog #32, p.87, #700) there is an Indian sword with 21" meteoric blade. Despite the obvious scepticism, it would be interesting to see if these swords actually did have such blades. The one in the catalog obviously is long gone, Abels was dealing in the 60's and 70's, but possibly the museum example is still there.

A note concerning aesthetics : from Stone (p.664)
"...the most brilliant watering is in Malayan blades made by piling alternate layers of mild steel and an alloy of iron and nickel containing about 3% nickel.
These are welded and twisted in various ways and then etched with a mixture of lime jiuc and arsenous acid".
"..in the old blades the nickel alloy was meteoric iron, in some of the later ones it was Krupps nickel steel".

This it seems the nickel was one key ingredient for the pamor, and if the appearance was 'meteoric'..all the better. Since nickel is an earthly element it does seem it would be difficult to differentiate between the earthly matter and extraterrestrial.
Question: are there unidentified elements or minerals found only in extraterrestrial material, such as the rocks from mars or the moon?

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,

We have, in some of the earlier posts heard about how difficult it is to recognise meteoric iron, especially if it is mixed, so how Pant could come with a statement like that, about a blade he has never seen, I don’t know. Maybe the museum in Alwar has such a sword, but here too the metal for the blade would be mixed. Should the museum have the sword, it is a question if they would let it be tested.
I know of the Pant book you quote from, but I don’t have it, so I did not know what he wrote on the subject.

Jens

[BSMStar]

This it seems the nickel was one key ingredient for the pamor, and if the appearance was 'meteoric'..all the better. Since nickel is an earthly element it does seem it would be difficult to differentiate between the earthly matter and extraterrestrial.
Question: are there unidentified elements or minerals found only in extraterrestrial material, such as the rocks from mars or the moon?

Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

You will find there are no "unearthly" elements in meteorites. What sets them appart is the "chemical mix" in which they were formed (and the physical conditions of formation as well).

If you were to see a meteorite sitting on the ground for any time at all, you may very well pass it up as a common rock (I am including all meteorite types). As you may have noticed that all of the meteorites mentioned in this thread that were used as sword making material, were witnessed falls. The cosmic connection was made becaused of an observed event. If they had not been observed, even if some kind of crater forming event occured... I think someone would have scrached their head and not reconize the interesting stones laying there as being from above. I believe this is apart of the issue at hand. By simple observation, how do we tell if a Keris or sword contains meteoric iron.

For me, I do not need meteoric iron to make a cosmic connection, take a look around you... everything you see, the elements that make us and everything around us were forged in a star.

I have seen some of the Gibeon meteorites that had simply been hammered into shape to make a spear... and when polished and acid etched, still showed the Widmanstatten structure, meaning it had not been forged or heated to any large degree or it would have destroyed this internal crystal structure. I am not an expert... so correct me if I am wrong, it maybe that the finer crystal structural octahedrites (vs. medium and coarse) may be more malleable (Gibeon is a fine octahedrite type IVA)?

If the meteorite in India would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces, then it was the "luck of the fall" or is it draw? :)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
You are right, the statements and comments that Pant has presented concerning the study of meteoric iron in India are simply presented as a point of reference, not necessarily conclusive. It would be difficult for him to prove that absolutely no study of any kind has been made on this topic in India, however we would presume that such published material was limited as not readily found. Therefore, the subject of meteoric iron in India is clearly not much discussed. As for the swords he has cited, the one in the museum he is apparantly relaying the caption with the weapon in the museum. ...we could only hope the weapon has some sort of provenance or historical data that would explain the 'meteoric' label.
As for the item listed in the Abels catalog, I would hardly consider a sales catalog used for reference in an academic discussion :) so again, that was simply an example cited which would just as well have been left out :) it just seemed interesting to note.

Best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

BSM,
Thank you so much!!! Beautifully explained!!!
This stuff gets more and more fascinating!!!
All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi BSMStar,

When you write 'I believe this is apart of the issue at hand.' I have to say no, this is a part of the understanding of the whole thing - so it is right on target :p .

I would like to thank you and the others who participate in this discussion, for explaning the things so clearly. Since I started this thread - which get more end more interesting - I have learned a lot, knowledge I which would have taken me a long time to gather - if I ever could - thank you very much.

Jens

[nechesh]

Jim posted this quote from Stone: A note concerning aesthetics : from Stone (p.664)
"...the most brilliant watering is in Malayan blades made by piling alternate layers of mild steel and an alloy of iron and nickel containing about 3% nickel.
These are welded and twisted in various ways and then etched with a mixture of lime jiuc and arsenous acid".
"..in the old blades the nickel alloy was meteoric iron, in some of the later ones it was Krupps nickel steel".

With all due respect to Stone, the last part of this quote just is not correct. This is part of the problem with this subject, we can find many accounts by scholars of an earlier time that are misleading at best and just dead wrong at worst. There is just NO evidence for meteoric pamor before the 19thC. Period. Maybe Stone meant something else by the phrase "old blades", but i would say old means pre-19thC. Not only that, Prof. Paiskowski's research has proven conclusively that much of the contrasting pamor in early keris is actually created by the use of high and low phosphorous iron, NO nickel at all. This is an important point to consider in evaluating the evolution of the keris blade.
I think it is a good thing that we have the reference material that we do when studying this material. But some of this info needs to be taken with a grain of salt. On this matter i have seen various authors who seem to pick up and pass along the same misinformation on this subject in a continuous chain of reference material. We can't just accept something because it is written, as clearly, sometimes these writers are wrong.

[Jeff D]

Great discussion.

I am no expert but we may be taking the "meteoric iron" term too literally. Meteoric iron or steel is another term used for Nickel steel, and has nothing to do with its origins. The iron from a meteor usually has Ni at 5-15%, It is not the trace elements in it that identifies it as a meteor, rather what elements are not present ie lack of other alloying elements. Nickel steel manufactured here on terra firma usually has 3-5% Nickel. So if an e-bay seller is saying his Keris has "meteoric iron" he may not be embellishing his item, but, may be using a out of date term.

Just my 5 cents worth (pre 1964).
Jeff

[nechesh]

Jeff, though i like to see the best in every man, i don't think that is what eBay dealers are doing. However, i do think the majority of them are just misguided having heard the myth somewhere that ALL keris are made this way or reading about it in some reference book with outdated information. And then there are a few who tend to act knowledgable and make the claim that theirs truly is a meteorite blade, really, and if you were as smart as they are you would know it was true. ;)

[Jeff D]

Hi Nechesh,

You are of course correct. But like you I like to give everyone the benefit of doubt. Unless, of course, it is my good money taken in a scam. It also ties in Jim's Stone quote of Krupp manufacturing meteoric iron, it also may be the reason the outdated books use the term which now has a new meaning as the original term became outdated and not used in its original context.

All the best.
Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff,
It's always good to see you come in, and I especially like your 'nickel's worth comment !:)



As Jeff has noticed, my placing the Stone quote was intended to illustrate the early use of terminology as pertains to 'meteoric'. I thought the reference to Krupps as a source for nickel in later blades was an interesting note to the importance of the nickel in achieving certain blade pamor aesthetically(perhaps I should have noted that specifically :)
Whenever Stone is used as a reference in discussion, most of us recognize that this is an venerable work that is typically considered in its context, as benchmark material that has in many cases, been superceded.
The material found in Stone presents interesting perspective as earlier research that can offer clues to continuing investigations. For example, as in the case of geneological research, it is typically necessary to rely on early and outdated maps, charts and historical data to seek information within key locations as counties, townships and cities have changed names, thus one cannot find information under the current names.

It is similarly sometimes important to know what theories, beliefs and material were regarded in references in contemporary times. This is why early narratives are considered so important in weapons research, contemporary observations.

I think it is extremely important to respect the work of the early authors and qualify data that has since been found incorrect (which has been done here with Nechesh's notes, thus achieving exactly that).

It is interesting to note from the foreward in the venerable volume we all know simply as 'Stone':
"...I am fully aware that this book is far from complete or perfect, but I trust that it may be an incentive to someone better qualified than I to write another on similar lines that will give more accurate information".
-George Cameron Stone, 1934

So here we all are, trying to do just that, and grateful to Mr. Stone for showing us the direction to follow.

All best regards,
Jim

[rasdan]

Hi guys,

This is quite different form the discussion. I was just wondering, is there danger of emmision of dangerous gasses or other substance during forging a meteorite? Some meteorites contain xenon etc. I dont know this is dangerous or not. However, I heard one guy fainted and was admitted to the hospital while trying melting a meteorite. The exact cause i dont know. Curently i have a nickel-iron metorite from Nantan, China and i'm thinking of making a keris from it. Any comment?

[nechesh]

Jim, you are, of course, right about the importance of early work, however flawed, in aiding our continued research on the subject. Perhaps you noted that i started my comment on your posted quote "With all due respect to Stone" and that was indeed a sincere remark.
It is interesting to note that the certain blade pamor aesthetic that the import of nickel was trying to achieve seems to have been a European one, not a traditional one. Groneman, for instance, was trying to reproduce the higher nickel pamor effect of meteorite when he imported nickel for keris production, a look that was to his taste.
Rasdan, nice to see you are back from holiday. I will be sending you a message soon. At least if you do make a keris from your meteorite that will be one example we can be sure of. :)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi rasdan,

Will you have the meteor analysed before you take the decision?
If you do please let us know what different metals it consists of, I am sure many will be interested in knowing.

Jens

[fearn]

Jens, you beat me to it!

Yes, Rasdan, by all means, have some sort of chemical analysis done. It's for more than our curiosity--it might also be useful to the empu who does the work, to know what's in the meteorite you bring him before he starts working on it. It will be interesting to see how the pamor develops in such a blade.

Nechesh, thanks for discussing Prof. Piakowski's work. Now, if some chemist in the group will explain how arsenic binds differentially to phosphorus to produce the light and dark pamor bands, I'll be happy :D

Fearn

[Jens Nordlunde]

I must say that I had started to wonder why this question was not asked, but maybe it has something to do with different time zones. But who asks the questions if of no difference, the interesting thing is to get the answers.

Jens

[BSMStar]

Rasdan,

I believe the Nantan has already been analyzed.

www.greatwallct.com/nantan.htm

The average Chemical composition in the Nantan meteorites are: Fe 92.35%, Ni 6.96%, belonging to IIICD type of iron meteorite based on the taxonomy of Wasson and others (1980). The following trace elements have been detected: C, Cu, Co, S, P, Cr, Ga, Ge, As, Sb, W, Re, Ir, Au, Ru, Pd, Os, Pr, and Mn. Ag, Cd, and Pb isotopes have been analyzed by Prof. Wang Daode and others (1993). http://www.pgrgem.com/color/datasheets/pgrmold.html

You may find more info surfing the net... but it looks like this meteorite may be a poor choice due to weathering. :o



fearn,

I'm going out on a limb here... so correct me if I am wrong. Realgar and Orpiment are an Arsenic Sulfide. In an acidic environment, the sulfur is released and bonds to the iron creating an Iron Sulfide (the brownish black color that is difficult to reproduce). Phosphorus will react to make a Phosphorus Sulfide, which is a pale yellow in color.

Here are some interesting links

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=4873&s=
http://www.sanztrust.org.nz/archives/knife.html
http://epswww.unm.edu/iom/Howto.htm

BMStar

[Jens Nordlunde]

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.
So you did know about analyze.
Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’.

Jens

[Rick]

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.
So you did know about analyze.
Maybe we need an explanation for the most common metals – what is Fe and so on, I am sure that not all can follow – maybe a sticky – what about it Andrew, I hope you are ‘listening’.

Jens

This link might be of some help Jens . :)

http://www.chemicool.com/

[BSMStar]

BSMStar, this is most interesting, although you loose me when you ask fearn the question about arsenic.


Hi Jens,

I'm sorry to be confusing... I was not asking about arsenic, it’s that I am making an assumption on the chemistry involved. I am assuming (a bad thing to do) the simplest reaction here (maybe someone will jump in and say this is an exotic organic salt of arsenic being formed with the lime juice instead. :rolleyes: )

Keep in mind that 99.31% (according to this analysis) is iron (Fe) and Nickel (Ni). That means 0.69% will be other elements... they are present only in very small amounts. Check out carbon steel, I believe you will fine that it is not as "pure" or (in other words) that it will have other "stuff" in it, in larger amounts (it is an alloy after all). Nickel-iron meteorites were not "designed" or "created" for the same purpose or use as alloyed steel. That's why most of them (un-alloyed) are not very "workable" in a forging process.

BSMStar

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Nechesh,
Well said! I didn't mean to take exception to what you were saying, but a guy like me who has cradled that book for this many years develops a distinct bond with it :) I guess I got a bit defensive, my apologies.
I think both of our views together are pretty good perspective, and that Stone himself would very much approve of the work we are all doing here.
I like the way you define and support the material being discussed, and we all benefit from the knowledge shared.
Back to work!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

[rasdan]

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks. :)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi BSMStar,
Don’t worry I try to follow as best I can, and I think it is interesting what you write. Yes I know about the carbon steel, and remember my surprise when I first saw it, that such a small concentration could have such a big influence.

Hi rasdan,
In 1621 a meteor was found in India and brought to Shah Jahangir who said: 'I ordered Master (Ustad) Daud to make a sword, a dagger and a knife out of it, and bring them to me. He represented that it would not stand below the hammer, and fell too pieces'.
If he had this knowledge, he must have tried to work with meteoric iron before, and lived to use his knowledge about the iron. I don't think you need to be afraid, but to be on the safe side, I think that an analyze would show if there is any danger.

Rick,
Thank you for the link. I almost fell off my chair when I opened the link, but after some time - getting used to all the colours ;) I vagely began to understand a little, although I still miss a lot - hopefully the understanding will come.

Jens

[BSMStar]

Hi guys,

Regarding the composition of Nantan Meteorites, my only worry is that some of the elements in it might be dangerous when melted. However i read that the Chineese had melted them and use them as weapons a long time ago. I suppose theres no danger in doing that. If anybody have any information regarding this can u please tell me. I dont wanna cause trouble to my keris smith. Thanks. :)

Hi rasdan!

I understand, I think you are Ok with the metallic part of the Nantan. There shouldn't be any volatile components there... but there may be a small amount volatile inclusions scatter through the meteorite. It is not wise to breathe the vapors from "hot" iron... so if the smith is using adequate ventilation and proper procedures.....
You may want to be sure you are working with an un-oxidized meteorite. Nantan is and old "fall" and has weathered for 400 years. Most of the pieces will mainly be iron oxides rather than workable metallic iron. Your Smith will know when they go to forge it and it will "fall apart under the hammer."


Best of luck and let us know how it goes! :D

BSMStar

[Henk]

Depending to the books of Tammens there should be a lot of keris made from meteorite iron.

Tammens wrote in his books about different colors of pamor depending on the kind of metalls that were used. Tammens wrote also about research on the metal of keris and older keris showed after analysis that during the forging-proces meteorite pamor was used. Meteorite metal contains nickle in different degrees. Tammens, part 1, chapter Pamor, the soul of the kris.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I must say, I don't know much about kerise's - close to nothing if I have to be honest, but when reading another thread it seems to be close to impossible to recognice meteroric metal, when the blade has been made. Did I miss something?

Jens

[Henk]

I don't think you missed anything Jens, this is a very hard subject.

Tammens refers in his book to this forging with meteorite metall and mentions the differences between the meteorite pamor and the pamor made from pure nickle bars, mixed with the common iron. The pamor that comes up is very bright and the pamor from meteor iron has softer tones and gives more non pamor fields on the blade. But to be honest, I cann't recognize metoric pamor. But if we may believe the literature and research has been done, there should be alot of kerisses around made with meteoric pamor.

[nechesh]

Hi Henk. I believe that is the problem right there. I respect Tammens and his books, but i believe this is one instance where is is just mistaken.

[tom hyle]

This is one of those threads I read the first half page of in real time, then it just "exploded" behind my back! In typical fashion, I'm responding while only 1/2 finished catching up.......I think the metal "not standing" beneath the hammer means that it cracked and crumbled when hammered upon, which wootz is also said to do if not worked properly, or perhaps if its chemistry is a little off, as with the meteor. Combining it (by hammering or melting I don't think is told?) with terrestrial metal diluted the impurity that caused the problem, allowing the metal to be worked ordinarily. The hope, I suppose, was that something about its chemistry might be bizarre and helpful. Odd pockets of terrestrial ores were known to have such properties. Skofnung and his brothers were said to have nonrusting edges. The Chinese didn't bother with iron weapons at first (until they got inexpensive, or until they improved?), because an impurity in one of the ores used in their bronze made it comparable....
Cut iron meteors display a flake-board-like pattern of angled crystals called a Windmenstatten pattern (spelling probably way off on that one), but only if cut/ground into; any hot working destroys this pattern, which could only be remade under the conditions of outer space or whatever. So, yeah, apart from burning a sample for spectroscopy, I don't think there's any way to tell the origins of a piece of forged iron. Musea and universities do it to things to follow ancient trade routes; "this dagger blade is made with copper from the Caucases...." etc. K(e)ris tangs are, AFAIK, formed by the two side plates of the blade, the cutting layer or core steel having stopped at or before the ganga, or at most within the first inch of tang. The two side plates of pamor metal are welded to each other, and then usually twisted together, too, so a tang tip actually should work, yes? I don't think I've seen any with tang extensions welded for length?

[Henk]

Hello Nechesh,

I'm sceptical too, but Tammens refers in his book part 1 to dr. Groneman, who did research to the components of keris in Jakarta. He was the one who tested the blades and made the conclusion of meteoric iron. The same dr. Groneman did the same tests again in the Krupp nickle factories in Germany. Also is refered to the many meteors that were found and used to make pamorblades.

I don't know if you have the books of Tammens, maybe you should read that part. He refers also to a scientific magazine that analyzed the components of iron meteors that contained different nickle amounts.
The dutch book I refered to earlier in this thread mentioned the meteoric iron used for pamorblades especially from the prambanan meteor that was the largest one and brought eventually to the kraton.

Maybe mistakes were made, but free iron from heaven? Remember that we, Dutch have been there. :D :D :D

[tom hyle]

BTW, I don't advocate the cutting up of old blades for testing; it actually horrifies me, and I think it might be especially bad with SE Asian blades, where I think a concept of "completeness" is important, and especially especially bad to do to a keris. It's a little like you see bigfoot, so you cut him up to find out what he is; seems ironic somehow, and wasteful.

[BSMStar]

Cut iron meteors display a flake-board-like pattern of angled crystals called a Windmenstatten pattern (spelling probably way off on that one), but only if cut/ground into; any hot working destroys this pattern, which could only be remade under the conditions of outer space or whatever.

Hi Tom,

Somewhat like the Keris, a cut and polished surface of an iron meteorite (except Ataxites) will only display the Widmanstatten structure after being acid etched.

There is a range of crystal structures from fine to coarse. The theory we learned (over 30 years ago) about the cause of this range of crystal structures, there was a planet or planetoid that existed between Earth and Mars. Through some event, the planet was destroyed... scattering its debris along what we call the asteroid belt. The core of the planet was made of "iron" like our own Earth's. As this nickel-iron core cooled, it crystallized. The slower the component cooled, the coarser the crystal structure became. I hope you will fine this helpful.

BSMStar

[nechesh]

Henk, indeed i do have Tammens Vol. 1 and i have read the passages over many times.I think the analysis of which he speaks is merely a way of determining the elemental components such as nickel, not the source from which they come. I don't believe it was necessary for Groneman to test blades to make the conclusion that they were meteorite. Groneman was a contemporary to the process. He knew a blade was meteroite probably because he knew the empu who made it, or the blade was well provenenced. He mayhave tested nickel content, but he was told they were from meteorites.
The meteorite analysis that Tammens sites is for strikes which took place on the other side of the world to Jawa, so while it is interesting it doesn't prove in any way that there were strikes previous to Prambanan that were used for pamor. He does metion four other meteorite sites on Jawa, Tjabe, Bandong, Ngarri and Djati Pengelon. Tjabe was ordinary stone Chondrite which fell in 1869, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/earth/metcat/detail.dsml?Key=T1210&index= , Bandong was a stone LL6 that fell in 1871, http://www.nyrockman.com/museum/bandong-80.htm , Djati Pengilon is also ordinary stone Chondrite and fell in 1884, http://internt.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/earth/metcat/detail.dsml?Key=D910&index= . I could find no records of the other one mentioned. Perhaps they have an alternative spelling. They all don't seem to have any iron/nickel content to speak of AND they struck in the latter half of the 19thC so
Free iron from heavem may indeed be free (unless it hits you :D ) but it certainly ain't common. MOST blades were not made with this stuff. MANY old blades didn't even use nickel to create pamor contrast.

[Henk]

You made a point Nechesh, and a stone doesn't make a pamor blade unless you heat it and collect the possible nickle and use it, but that is unlogical.
And I'm aware of the fact that different metalls were used to make a pamor blade without nickle.

I did read the dutch version of Tammens and I don't find mentioned that dr. Groneman was told that the metall came from a meteor. But it is very good possible like you put it. But when they told him the metall was from a meteor, our scientist wasn't acting very scietific :eek:

[tom hyle]

I have thought of this idea of meteorite kris as a confusion of windmenstatten and pamor patterns, but could it be that there is an Indonesian folk belief that nickel or other metals originate from meteors, and even when mined from the Earth, that their origins "in the mists of time" are celestial? In Western Africa there is a folk belief that neolithic celts (knives/axes/palstave tips) come from the sky and are artifacts of divine/alien origin.

[okhba3]

According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium.
The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

[tom hyle]

From the archives : :D
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here . :)

Wow! Way cool. I note that the foreign wootz was considered an interesting material for a ganga, but not suitable for a fine blade :rolleyes:

[nechesh]

Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact.
And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals.
Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic :) . It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

[BSMStar]

okhba3

OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead????? :confused: I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti.

Tom,

I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite.

Here is some more interesting stuff:

http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm

[tom hyle]

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

[BSMStar]

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

As long as we keep in mind, there isn't any black color in the Widmanstatten pattern. The affect is cause by the different speeds the acid "eats" it's way through the nickel-iron structure... where in pamor, it is a blackening affect by depositing sulfur on the iron, changing the color of the iron surface.

BSMStar

[tom hyle]

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

[okhba3]

BSMStar,
the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.

[BSMStar]

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

Hi Tom,

I just want to be sure I am not misunderstood... unlike pamor, the Widmanstatten pattern has no staining to the surface as does pamor. That is the difference I am referring to.

BSMStar

[BSMStar]

BSMStar,
the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.

Hi okhba3,

Thank you for your help.

BSMStar

[B.I]

hi,
back to the original quote by jens, about the meteorite weapons commisioned by jahangir. well, the dagger actually exists still and is in the freer gallery of art in washington.
to quote on the dagger in the gallery -

'it was ordered together with a dagger and two swords, to be made from the metal of a meteorite. accounts of this incident appear in jahangirs memoirs and also in the iqbal-nameh-i jahangiri. the armourer was ustad da'ud, described in the iqbal-nameh as 'well known in those days for the swords he made'. it is inscribed in gold persian nasta'liq on the spine of the blade:

'there fell in the time of jahangir shah from lightning-like precious piece.janhangir ibn akbar ordered to make from it two swords (shamshir), this knife (kard) and a dagger (khanjar). in the year 1030 (1621ad) in the year 16 (of jahangirs succession),146.'

the hilt of this knife, clearly original, is decoarated with typically persian chisselled vignettes of a lion killing an antelope and a hawk killing a bird. the form and repeat pattern of these medallions are founds on persian metalwork such as candlesticks of the period. this object is pure persian in inspiration, except that the royal ownership is underlined by the inlaid gold umbrella mark on the blade.'

note, he number 146 has been debated and general consencus agree the possibility of it being an inventory number. also, by pure speculation from an image, without holding the piece, the persian work on the hilt just reminds me of late 18thC work, and not of the period stated. its just a speculative opinion, as the quote is from a good source, as are the general opinions from the freer gallery.
interesting stuff!!
btw, although it is a great dagger indeed, i think i would gladly exchange it for the chance to see jens' face when i sees the images :)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi B.I.

I was a bit surprised to see that ’Meteoric’ was still alive, and to see the picture was an even bigger surprise. I had never thought that any of these weapons, made out of the meteor, still existed. How or where you found it is a riddle to me, but thank you very much for showing it. The pattern on the blade is most unusual, but I like it a lot, just like I like the whole knife. Your end remark about seeing my face when I read the text and saw the pictures, was very well placed :p.

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is a link to the dagger that B.I.
is showing.
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/singleObject.cfm?ObjectId=10925
Gene

[B.I]

well found, gene. i didnt realise that a picture was online, and i bet jens is kicking himself for not finding it first :)
i learnt sometime ago from the V&A pieces that you can find additional information from somthing as simple as an accession number. these are never random numbers, at least in british institutions and i think the US is the same.
this piece has the number
Purchase, F1955.27a-b
1955 is the year the museum aquired it, and F probably is the inititial of the person/sale it was aquired from. i'm sure a little back tracking could yield some more information. either that, or a phonecall to someone in the department to ask what the F stands for. it would be good to know where the dagger came from, as we can assume the museum hasnt held it too long.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, thank you for the link – it is a beauty. I wonder what the museum want this knife for, now in my collection – it would be real comfy – but I am afraid that they will not part with it, sigh.
I think I will have to settle with the fact that it is safe, and kept for new collectors to see and admire. Just imagine its history – fantastic. The pattern of the blade, besides being very unusual, really fascinates me. How many other blades do we know, of which we are sure, that they are made of meteoric iron?

B.I. is a bit of a marvel, when he puts his mind to it, it is not the first time he has given me a big surprise – and I don’t hope it will be the last time.

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is a link to a painting of Jahangir the owner of the dagger shown by B.I. ,from the Smithsonian Museum link I posted on the Asian Museum

http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/singleObject.cfm?ObjectId=3407

Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Gene, it is a very nice drawing of a high quality.
A pity that we can't travel in time - yet, or maybe it is good so, becourse how many people would stay back in our time, they would all be travelling to other time zones :cool: .

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Have a look at this thread, one of the books Kamil mentions.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=473

[Kiai Carita]

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

I think there is evidence that meteorite pamor was used before the Prambanan meteorite was taken into the Keraton Surakarta as there is evidence of the trading of meteorite before the Prambanan pamor. Empus practised meditations which alowed them to find peices of metal and often Empus would travel collecting pieces of iron to make keris. The Dayak in Kalimantan also make the best mandau from batu bintang.

Meteorite is an important symbolic part of the keris and apart from the pangawak waja and the kelengan type of keris every Empu would try to have at least a little bit of meteorite in the mixture of the metals used in the pamor as a syarat. The pangawak waja and kelengan blades don't have any pamor for esoteric reasons before the material reasons. The Javanese had a metallurgy based on the feeling rasa of different irons and pamor materials and this knowledge and art is what governs the behaviour of the Empu.

The simple academic answer to the question of meteorite and keris is that the keris was invented by the Gods and brought to Java by Aji Saka from Hindustan and until the Dutch interference in the keris world the keris continued to develop in Java according to Javanese lore. One of the main changes in the javanese attitude towards the keris happened during the Great Depression when the Dutch pawn shops valued the well dressed and new keris higher than old and more magical but simply dressed tayuhan keris.

During the Majapahit empire the keris spread throughout South East Asia and developed into the weapon of the Malay world. The fall of Majapahit and the introduction of Islam and cannon developed the keris in different ways in different SEA regions but essentially it is a prayer and not a weapon.

Of course kerises have been used to kill and in some parts of SEA they are made to kill as well but the Java keris is never intended to kill. The instances when there has been a Java keris killing in history are remembered by the Javanese as mistakes, wrongs, and the event was unusual. One of the most common dapur of the keris, the Tilam Upih, often has a blade so thin that it would be close to useles as a stabbing weapon.

In fact the story of Aji Saka as recorded in the Javanese hanacaraka alphabet might give a clue as to why the keris is never meant to be used to kill in Java.

[nechesh]

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct. :)

[Kiai Carita]

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct. :)

I think that material evidence in kerisology is not always possible or desireable as a keris is not a material weapon rather it is an esoteric weapon. Alot of what we know about keris comes from legend. Then there is the traditional esoteric practises of Javanese artist which is still kept and taught to apprentices by some people in Java. In the education of the Java poet / artist there are several meditations such as 'nggrayang raga' and 'ngraga sukma' and movement meditations like 'gerak nurani'. These meditations expand the senses and would allow a heavenly-pamor collector gather pieces of meteorite smaller than chicken eggs.

Kerises older than the Prambanan keris are also claimed by the families that own them to be made of meteorite pamor. Works by Mpu Singkir, Mpu Pitrang, Mpu Supa Mandrangi and other great Mpu are believed to use meteorite in the pamor. When the Prambanan meteorite fell everyone knew exactly what to do with it it was to make pamor.

Some people interviewed by the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo while compiling his Ensiklopedi Keris also said that until the Great Depression meteorite was for sale in the markets of Solo, Madiun, Yogya, Palembang in Sumatra and so on. Not all the pamor on the market was Prambanan pamor but all pamor was more valuable than gold. However, if it will please you, I will say that before the Prambanan meteor there is no evidence of the use of meteor in Java keris.

Salam Keris

[nechesh]

No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? :) The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper. :)

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? :) The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case.

Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens?

There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi).

The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris.

Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris.

I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite.

I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu.

Salam keris.

[Rick]

Most Honored ,
I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member .
I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you .
Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge :

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist .

Most respectfully submitted .

Rick
EEWRS

[Kiai Carita]

Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you.

Salam Keris

[Rick]

Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body .
Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa .

Now I will step out of this discussion .

Thank you .

[nechesh]

Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu. :)

[Kiai Carita]

Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century?

You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron.

Salam Keris

[BluErf]

Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita.

What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts.

While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma. :)

I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately).

Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'.

And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right? :D

Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea. :)

[BluErf]

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Rick]

We need more smiles in our Keris discussions !!

[Andrew]

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Cheers, Kai Wee! :)

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Greetings...

I would like to share some of my thought about this interesting topic. Thought i'm new to this forum, but i considered myself not new to keris (hopefully :) ) and have some first-hand-experience, because, lucky me :D , i live in Yogyakarta.

1. Why pamor is almost always considered as made from meteorite, especially by the Javanese ? IMHO, it's connected to the making process of the keris itself. While the empu make the keris, he (or she) is considered to act as a priest who marrying the heaven (the meteorite) and the earth (the iron). When the making is done, the picture of pamor on the blade is considered as the heaven's fate for the owner of the keris, so it's very important. If it's not made from meteorite (which is, sad to say, quite often), the sense of "heaven's fate" will be diminished. So, for the Javanese, the pamor is almost always considered as made of meteorite, as it act as the heavens, but for those who studied the keris (even if he is Javanese), it'sn't always meteorite.
For other cultures, "the act of marrying heaven and earth" by the bladesmith might not exist, so the meteorite used in making the blade only considered as the add of beauty and rarity, plus some mystic power, of course :) But it's never considered as the heaven's fate for the owner.

2. It's correct that not all the meteorite could be used to make the keris. I had asked this question to Empu Djeno (long before I join this forum off course, not when one of us ask about it :) ) the last living empu decendant who still make keris in Yogyakarta. He told me once he received order to make a keris from Belgian, who bring his own meteorite. But this meteorite can't stand the forging process. Prambanan meteorite is rich in iron and other metal, which resemble a chunk of metal than a pieces of stone. I've handle one of these which is belongs to Karaton of Yogyakarta for exhibition.

3. Only nem-neman keris made of Prambanan meteorite. For those who want authentic meteorite on it's blade, just run for the nem-neman (young) keris which is made when PB IX or X reigned in Surakarta, or HB VII - VIII reigned in Yogyakarta. Just be carefull, the keris maker in Madura is able today to make the keris almost identically the same as those nem-neman. the pamor is made from nickelous iron (perhaps they read this forum also :) ) Even Javanesse keris experts have difficulties to identify them. But for those who love the old ones, just relax, The Madura's maker never be able to copy them :D

4. To identify the material used for pamor by see or touch it is tricky for those who never seen different keris more than 5 a day for a month, even ones who had the chance may still make a mistakes. The elders in Java always said the best way to study keris is to look at it as much as you can get, the more the better, the best if the keris from the first-class quality. The things I can tell you, the meteorite pamor gives more color gradations/hue. It's dark gray, gray, white, and shining metallic-white,(etched or not) all in one. the best way to see it is under the sun ray. The ray from any artificial source will hardly reveal it. it's also sharp to the touch. The prambanan pamor has distinct characteristic, it's exhibit metallic-white and yellowish color. The madura's pamors, usually have pure (and boring) metallic white, not too sharp to the touch. But for the high-quality ones, they add some impurities, so it's more difficult for us to identify. The pamor made from lower grade iron, perhaps high in phosphorus, have a chalk-like dull white color, not sharp to the touch and usually do not stand etching.
5. In the ancient times, there were so many empu, so many style. They made so many kerises, from low grade quality to the high ones. The high ones, were only made by the court's empus. Why ? Because the court had the power to ask best empu in their region to work for them, had the money to bring the best material existed, and the most important, they kept the best work of the earlier empu, so the later, could learn and perfected the work of the earlier, something not possible for the empu outside the court. From my experiences, the pamor of good quality old kerises usually exhibit the characteristic of meteoric pamor (like prambanan ones, minus the yellowish hue), so I think it's save for me to say that it's made of meteorite. If it isn't, the empus might have developed a way to purify nickelous (or titanium, according to Arumbinang research) ore.
I do admit (and hoping) that scientific research on keris metallurgy must be carried over, because so many questions arise around it.

One more thing, it was quite usual for empus to mix several kind of iron and even pamor materials. Because "pamor" word, in Javanese language, came from the word "wor - awor" which mean to mix liberally.

[Kiai Carita]

Hello Gentlemen :) , one other peice of information that might help in imagining the keris would come from observing people in Java and Bali preparing offerings for the Unseen. Most offerings have prescribed ingredients and some are difficult to come by. In such cases only a tiny smidgin of the rare ingredient is considered enough as the 'sarat' has been fulfilled. Thus in the world of the keris I would imagine that a smidgin of meteorite of forgable metal could be mixed in with other pamor material, thus fulfilling the 'sarat' and enabling the weddinig of the heaven and the earth to be done by the Mpu. Through a process akin to the thoughts in the world of Western homeopathy the whole of the pamor can then be considered to be from the heavens and the wholeness of the keris as a prayer is manifested.

Some more information for Mr.Hyle :) about the intention of keris to be used as weapons, and the idea that the Javanese were taught about keris by monkeys. Mr. Hyle thinks that some keris might have never been intended as weapons. I would propose the opposite, that some keris were made to be able to serve as a material weapons of the last resort, just in case at some desperate moment the bearer had no other choice.

As for the idea that Javanese were taught about keris by the monkeys that was intended as a joke :D I was just pointing out a panel from the Prambananan temple not far from where lucky B. Aditya lives. You should go to Yogyakarta and visit him and Mpu Djeno's family, by the way. The monkey thread was a joke made with the intention of pointing out that information from racist Chinese sources or renegade Portugese sailors or even devotional art could not be taken at face value but had to be understood in context to be interpreted usefully.

Indonesian silat also learns moves and systems from animals and the monkey is one of them and my joke about keris being taught by monkeys was not intended to hurt any monkeys in this forum :D

It is very true that to understand keris one must handle as many keris as possible with the assistance of a knowledgable mentor. An Indonesian keris mailing list is talking about making an international and definitive keris gathering in Bali. This would certainly give an unique opportunity to all keris lovers. Would anyone have an idea how many internationals would be likely to atend such a meeting? Would it be a feasible thing to do? I would be grateful for your ideas Gentlemen.

Salam Keris.

[BSMStar]

I am sorry to have been "asleep at the wheel" on this thread...

Did you know... the earth is growing by an average of 2 tons (4000 lbs or 1816 kilograms) a day? That is how much meteoritic material is reaching the ground daily... not everything "burns up" in the atmosphere - and the majority of the material reaching the ground is in a dust form.

Meteorites have been falling through out the earth's history, so it possible to for someone to go looking around and happen upon an old fall. One question is, did what they find truly have a cosmic origin? Without testing, iron by itself is almost impossible tell if it extraterrestrial or not. I will leave the debate alone as to if a person is "sensitive" or not, that is to say if they can divine the difference.

The real question here is, which came first... did the Prambanan meteorite, from which the association was with heaven - due to it being an observed fall... or an earlier experience with meteorites, which the Prambanan meteorite just offered an opportunity to mass produce blades because of it's size?

It just does not make sense that an Mpu would walk around looking for a rock from heaven before the Prambanan meteorite fall, unless there was a reason to believe there were rocks or iron from heaven lying around? There certainly is no heavenly association with rocks lying on the ground, only an earthly one. That idea or concept had to came from somewhere... unless it too is a myth or legend born after the Prambanan meteorite fall. Was there possibility a heavenly association with iron at one time? Or had witnessed falls occurred before?

[Rick]

Kiai , you made this 'joke' in your post #124 on this thread .

" Indonesian silat also learns moves and systems from animals and the monkey is one of them and my joke about keris being taught by monkeys was not intended to hurt any monkeys in this forum . "

Even though you followed it with a 'grin ' emoticon I consider it to be a thinly veiled insult to certain forum members .

For this you have earned a two week suspension from posting . Hopefully when and if you return you will do so with a better and more tolerant attitude .

[marto suwignyo]

The major investigation of the keris:nickel relationship was carried out by Bennet Bronson. The results of this investigation were published in the scientific journal "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21, No.1, 1987. The title of Bronson`s paper is "Terrestial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Kris".

This paper is far too comprehensive to be precised here, however it should be noted that both Raffles in 1817, and Crawfurd in 1820 and 1856 say nothing of meteoritic material being used as pamor. Crawfurd states that pamor was imported into Java from other islands.By 1839 Newbold was able to state that pamor came not only from Sulawesi, but also from Java, but Newbold did not claim meteoritic origin for this Javanese pamor.By 1844 De Luynes had shown that some keris blades contained nickel. In an 1867 article published by Natuurkundig Tijdschrift voor Nederlandsch-Indie an analysis on iron and nickel content of the Prambanan meteor is given and it is referred to as "pamor-stone". In 1840, a Dutch military intelligence officer reported that pamor was produced in the Bugis kingdom of Celebes (Sulawesi).

This pamor material from Sulawesi is known as "pamor Luwu".

In the early 1900`s Groneman indicates that the use of pamor Luwu was still widespread in the Archipelago , a survey showing that it was used by keris makers in nine centres on six different islands. Groneman was the European who was responsible for introducing Javanese keris makers to European nickel.

A number of analyses of keris blades have been carried out by various metallugists, probably the most extensive testing of keris has been performed by Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski of Poland and his tests extend to the analysis of very old Javanese blades.Only a small part of Prof. Piaskowski`s results have been published, however, from what has been published we can learn that the white metal that produces the pamor effect in early Javanese blades is in fact iron with a high phosporus content.No nickel is present in these blades.

The keris has a very long history. Pre-modern keris seem to date back to the early Javanese classical period, pre 1000AD in Central Java, and the modern keris (ie, the keris in the form that we now recognise) has existed since at least the 15th century. During this time it has developed from a weapon to a cultural icon and cosmic symbol, and this development can be traced by the references made to the keris in Javanese literature.

In the literature of Majapahit the keris is mentioned predominantly as a weapon. The nationalistic resurgence of Javanese identity which occurred during the Kartasura era (Ricklefs) began a movement which tended to stress Javanese values as an active counterbalance to the increasing European influence of the Dutch, and dating from this time we find the keris accorded an increasing importance in Javanese society. However, even though the keris had now moved away from being merely a weapon, in the "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa" (History of the Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa) by Pangeran Wijil of Kartasura (circa 1740), no mention is made of meteoritic material being an important component of the keris .

The Kitab Centini (Kitab Suluk Tambanglaras), a major Javanese literary work of the 18th century and taking the form of an informal encyclopaedia of Java, has a number of mentions of keris , however, nowhere in Centini is there mention of meteoritic material being used in the keris. There is no mention of any connection to the heavens.

This is not surprising, because Buchwald`s catalogue of known iron meteorites lists only two from anywhere in Indonesia:- a small one that fell near Rembang in north Java, and the Prambanan meteorite.

In summary, the evidence provided by analysis of actual keris, by Javanese literary sources, and by historical European reports of Javanese material culture all point towards there being no connection between the keris and meteoritic material prior to the 19th century.

I urge those with an interest in this subject to obtain Bronson`s paper and read it.

[BSMStar]

In summary, the evidence provided by analysis of actual keris, by Javanese literary sources, and by historical European reports of Javanese material culture all point towards there being no connection between the keris and meteoritic material prior to the 19th century.

Thank you marto for your insight. I too have not been able to find meteoritic references before the use of the Prambanan meteorite in keris making, and I am of the opinion that the cosmic connection (and union of the cosmic and earthly) was probably made at that time (in 1797). I have only hearsay to trace the use of meteoritic iron before that time, but I have not seen any objective evidence to prove it as a fact. But I am certainly open to it. Thank you again.