Jian Sword Buddha

[JoeCanada42]

Looking for opinions on age, origin, purpose, info etc. also to share, thanks

[JoeCanada42]

mores photos 2

[JoeCanada42]

more photos 3

[JoeCanada42]

more photos 4

[JoeCanada42]

last of photos

[DavidFriedman]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the form and design is consistent with modern made pieces flooding out of China the last 20 years. They are very good at making recent versions look 100-200 years old, but they typically throw in designs that were just not commonly found. Kind of like making a modern fantasy sword design look old by aging it with chemicals etc.

I bought 2 similarish ones 20years ago for $500 each. The cost of the study.

[ausjulius]

hll. sad to say it is a very recently made crude chinese fake.

[Ian]

Hi Joe,


Possibly made in southern Yunnan where there are ethnic minorities following Buddhism.


Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

hll. sad to say it is a very recently made crude chinese fake.


Ouch! Thats pretty direct. As I do not claim any particular experience with Chinese weaponry, but find the topic extremely interesting, I wonder if you might detail a bit on how that evaluation is determined.

Is this jian based on a specific form from which it is copied? or is it a composite of various elements?

It would be great to see 'authentic' examples of this, which are fully substantiated, in comparison, perhaps you might include one?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Joe,


Possibly made in southern Yunnan where there are ethnic minorities following Buddhism.


Ian.

Hi Ian,
That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam? I am only guessing because of news activity of late regarding Uighers etc.

Jim

[JoeCanada42]

Thanks for stepping in Jim, I was just about to say the same.

Thanks Ian I did try looking for some examples of Yunnan "village Jian" swords earlier today and I will keep looking. I have not found any examples yet.

Ausjulius , what is very recent in your opinion? and if you could give me some reasons why you say this one is fake please?

I have seen many Jains sell recently and have some I believe interesting research and different Jian swords photos to share. I may be wrong but I do believe I see genuine age in the Jian I posted .

I will give some details about the sword. I got it from an American eBay vendor with good feedback who I don't believe sold such a sword before. I payed the second time 300$ Us, i did have to pay customs also and in Canadian dollars this was a bit expensive for me. Originally I purchased it buy it now for about 120+60 Us. it was confiscated by eBay global shipping program.
I then found it for sale with the known eBay liquidator. the Original seller was nice enough to buy it back and sell it to me the second time. all this took a lot of work and the sword went on quite an journey to get to me.
that being said the price I payed kind of defeats the point of making a fake.

the sword is 35 1/2 inch , the blade is little over 28 inch, the scabbard is a little over 31 inch. the sword in the scabbard is about 39 inch.

I don't know the weight yet, I have a photo of it balancing on the balance point.

I see one similar Jian, when I search for antique Jian, the guard is the same but without buddha, and the scabbard fittings are the same... although I cant post a photo of this similar sword currently, it also has a different more standard pommel and longer signed blade. but is the same color and very similar to mine, it is dated 19c.

On my sword I see the ray skin is shrunk, and the blade has rust under the guard, the guard is also lose, the blade is solid, all scabbard fittings are lose. there is many flaws in the metal work. most modern replicas are of better quality, I think this may be primitive work., the dragons on the blade and the faces on the pommel and the sitting buddhas on the guard all have discrepancies. the blade is a known blade shape and thickness, and is sharp with a few dings. i think the guard is Tibetan shape, the handle is large enough for two hands.

the blade definitely feels real, I also looked for about a month and can not find any other Jian with buddha elements at all.

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I'm a bit sceptical regarding the age, too. For comparison I show my chinese Jian-style double dagger, made around 1900. The blades are relatively simple but the blade of the showed sword is not the part I have a real problem with. The ray skin looks a bit strange to me, it could be an imitation. The quality of the bronze mountings is also not very good.
Original swords of this type or pieces like my double dagger were probably only "touristic" pieces for the colonialists in there time, so the quality claims were not the same like for an officer's or warrior's sword. But the showed sword is under the quality I know from such antique "touristic" pieces.

Regards
Robin

[David]

I will admit right up front that i know very little about this type of sword. But from simple observation it is clear to see that the fittings on Joe's Jian are rather poor for anything with legitimate age. We can clearly see the difference between what Joe has posted and the dagger that Robin has posted. And as Robin points out, even in 1900 when he estimates his double dagger from, these were most probably being made for European tastes.
I also agree with Robin that the ray skin looks a bit suspect on Joe's sword. The general quality of the piece seems low. It may be vintage, but i have serious doubts it is genuinely antique. Either way i suspect it's purpose was most probably not as a user, but a wall hanger. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Again, while I cannot speak with any sort of authority on these Chinese weapons, I do have what might be considered a 'working knowledge' of them from researches many times over the years.

I will say there seems to be a notable presence of 'souvenir' items in circulation, many of which do have notable age in that they were acquired in the 19th into early 20th c. Obviously China has restricted the trade or export of their antiquities for many years, so authentic items would have had to circumvent the normal channels (uh, not that this could not happen).

What I am wondering is, in all areas of production of material culture items and goods, is it not feasible that there were varying degrees of quality in items? With this being the case, perhaps makers with lesser skills tried to copy the work of other artisans in a kind of 'underground' setting.

If I have understood correctly, there were considerable restrictions upon civilians toward owning weapons, considering the constant presence of prospective insurgency, i.e. secret societies against the Qing rulers.
I have often heard of jian regarded as 'students' and that for some reason these individuals were allowed them, for reasons I do not know.

Regarding the example discussed from OP, it does not seem to me that Buddha was depicted in the elements of swords, and the pommel on this seems atypical. There seems to be a ferrule or some sort of element that should be under it to correspond to the one at the grip base.
It would seem that rayskin would be unusual to place on a weapon intended for commercial (souvenir) traffic. There are types of faux rayskin used in Europe since early 19thc. but this does not seem feasible for use when cheaper more effective materials would be available.

I have a saber which has an unusual tortoise shell material not commonly seen on Chinese swords, but it has been deemed authentically mounted, but likely for use as a gift possibly for diplomatic presentation. This may be a consideration here as well. The suggestion of Tibetan styling involved, as well as the presence of the Buddha, could indicate Tibetan production, and again, as I have understood, Tibetan artisans in border regions often produced weapons for Chinese overlords in a 'tribute' type arrangement.

Consideration of 'age' is also quite relative, and it seems there is a good volume of Chinese and Tibetan items which were acquired during the colonial occupations and travel in late 19th into 20th c. (1930s).

I think these factors are important to consider as we look at items such as this. To me, even souvenir items have some degree of legitimacy in the actual items or culture they represent. This jian has distinct character even with perhaps some flaws in its elements.
Just my perspective, and I look forward to same from those far more experienced in this field.

The 'butterfly knives' (shuangian=double jians) were not popular until early 1820s, but by end of 19th c. were used notably by so called 'river pirates' who were Chinese martial artists often employed as 'security' forces. At the end of 19th c. during occupation of China by European legations they were among the many types of weapon acquired by people there. Constant displays of martial arts using 'exotic' weapons intrigued the Europeans so they sought them for display in thier parlors.

[JoeCanada42]

I don't like shape of the points on those daggers.
my ray skin looks pretty much the exact same as yours, just with extra orange die on top. you can see some parts of my ray skin which don't have the orange, looks just like your ray skin if not older. could you tell me what looks off about it? the fittings do look very similar and a little better quality. I doubt mine is more recent than the circa 1900 tourist pieces.

the blade on mine looks like a forged, fullered, carbon steel. my sword may have had new fittings put on for one of many reasons(maybe to bypass laws preventing sale of items over 100 years old.),maybe the original scabbard broke ,or original fittings were silver etc., I am thinking it may be a real weapon blade, made into a personal talisman sword, temple/exorcism sword or Daoist sword. Tibetan? (not for tourist) and I think the reason the fittings are crude is really just because its village made , and primitively made, maybe the master bronze caster just died. maybe the village fittings were more crude before perfected for the tourist market. they actually look pretty good compared to most plain simple 19c military examples.
I don't think my sword with buddha is military or meant for battle. but it would certainly work, feels like a quality sword.

anybody maybe know where this type of buddha face comes from? with the large earlobes, hair style, etc. also I notice a stain at the top of the fuller on both sides. any ideas what that's about?

[JoeCanada42]

Jim I am not sure what you are describing about the pommel etc, and a corresponding part?

the pommel looks like it was pinned in place

[Ren Ren]

That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam?
In China and in Yunnan province in particular, Buddhism is not a minority religion. But most Chinese people follow Amidaism. The Thai and Burmese peoples inhabiting Yunnan adhere to a different direction - Theravada. This is the main direction of Buddhism in the countries of Southeast Asia. It came from South India in the 5-6th centuries AD.

P.S. The details of JoeCanada42 sword do bear some resemblance to the Theravada Buddhist depictions.

[DavidFriedman]

To me, the dragon engraving on the blade is not consistent with blades that I’ve seen. A lot of the recent reproductions went crazy with Mulan looking dragons on the blades, and Wild engravings of characters.

The casting of the fittings to me is crude, in my opinion, if a sword were to have such ornamentation, the pierce work would be exceptionally refined. Why go to such lengths to make a fancy jian, but only make rough work with the fittings.

The patina on the fittings seems off to me too.

The patina and appearance of the rayskin/sharkskin looks off.

I’m no expert in original pieces, but I have observed a huge amount of modern reproductions over the last 20 years. Mostly by photo.

I would wonder if a sword was real, then click on the buyers page and see what else they had. Only to see insanely grotesque caricatures of Chinese weapons.

In my opinion, if the workmanship is crude, then it will be crude throughout. So if having fancy Buddhist icons on it, it would be done impeccably, if at all. Crude pieces that are original are crude from head to toe. A refined sword would have no telltale signs of crudity, unless damage, or parts replaced.

That’s my take. I’m no expert, and I go by feeling still, until I become more astute at identifying the tell tale signs of modern fabrications.

[Philip]

I will admit right up front that i know very little about this type of sword. But from simple observation it is clear to see that the fittings on Joe's Jian are rather poor for anything with legitimate age. We can clearly see the difference between what Joe has posted and the dagger that Robin has posted. And as Robin points out, even in 1900 when he estimates his double dagger from, these were most probably being made for European tastes.
I also agree with Robin that the ray skin looks a bit suspect on Joe's sword. The general quality of the piece seems low. It may be vintage, but i have serious doubts it is genuinely antique. Either way i suspect it's purpose was most probably not as a user, but a wall hanger. :shrug:


David, you've hit the nail right on the head. No use over-intellectualizing the Buddhistic symbolism, this thing is bogus. The uneven workmanship, the assembly of the hilt (note especially the pommel which simply butts against the end of the grip without having the integral "skirt" that is the counterpart to the ferrule at the forward end), the decorative technique on the blade, I can go on and on. Having collected, dealt in, and restored Chinese swords (and somewhat analogous forms from Korea) for decades, plus examining them in museums both in Asia and the West, I can see too many discrepancies in this piece, which has far more in common with the fakes in Chinese souvenir shops than any of the originals in my experience.

[Kubur]

As mentionned previously, this sword is crudely made, the poor cast and the Buddhist designs, are all signs of a late 20th c., not even a fake, but a Chinese fantasy.

On the other hand, maybe, we might be all wrong and this sword is the sword of Buddha himself... and therefore an invaluable treasure...
;)

[David R]

Do a search on this forum using the word "Jian", you will soon see the problems for your sword. Chinese swords are very bound by tradition, and despite all the variations there are common themes repeated all through their
history.

[CutlassCollector]

For comparison, here is something similar from the Chinese Sword Museum - unfortunately my knowledge is minimal and not much improved by my visit, as almost all text was in Mandarin.
The sword was however captioned in English 'Longquan Sword .Qing Dynasty'

[Ian]

Hi Ian,
That is interesting, would the Buddhist minority in Yunnan regions be due to other religion dominating, Islam? I am only guessing because of news activity of late regarding Uighers etc.

JimHi Jim,

When using the term "ethnic minority" I mean it in the sense of the Chinese census classification, which is conducted nationwide. "Ethnic minorities" are, by definition, not considered Chinese ethnically and in toto make up a minority of the overall population in China. That said, there are areas of the country where ethnic minorities exceed the number of ethnic Chinese. Southern Yunnan is one area where Buddhist ethnic minorities comprise the majority of the population. Buddhism is therefore the most prevalent religion in that part of China. Ren-Ren was alluding to this in his reply.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Philip]

Again, while I cannot speak with any sort of authority on these Chinese weapons, I do have what might be considered a 'working knowledge' of them from researches many times over the years.

If I have understood correctly, there were considerable restrictions upon civilians toward owning weapons, considering the constant presence of prospective insurgency, i.e. secret societies against the Qing rulers.
I have often heard of jian regarded as 'students' and that for some reason these individuals were allowed them, for reasons I do not know.


Jim, you might have a better grasp of this after digging deeper into the historical narrative. The Dutch sinologist R van Gulick wrote an interesting article on the significance of the jian, along with the zither, to scholars. Ming writers on connoisseurship do discuss swords among the other things that cultivated gentlemen should appreciate. These discussions dealt with the civilian as opposed to the military sector of society. Also of interest is what the Qing emperor Kangxi (r 1682-1722) wrote about the futility of trying to disarm the common people in some areas of China.

Further inquiry into the role of secret societies in old China might also be fruitful. It seems that the imperial government had some toleration for their activities, providing they were not overtly political, and insofar as they provided a means for local communities to police themselves to a limited extent. Much as minor legal functions, especially those of a familial or contractual nature, were often left to clans and guilds to handle. With a somewhat constrained tax base, and large expenditures in other areas like public works, stipends and perks for the ruling elite, and military campaigns, this helped stretch the resources of a government ruling an empire whose provinces were larger than some European countries.

[Philip]

On the other hand, maybe, we might be all wrong and this sword is the sword of Buddha himself... and therefore an invaluable treasure...
;)

Don't we all dream of finding the saber carried by Genghis Cohen?
Dig deep enough on the internet, one of us lucky bums might just find it!

Some years ago, I saw something written by some chap about a jian attributed to Marco Polo (yep, it was really that old!). Don't remember the whole backstory that he presented, something about it possibly being a gift of Kubilai Kahn? I do remember meeting the author at sword shows in the distant path, he took himself very seriously so did not think that his article was penned in jest.

[JoeCanada42]

I did research Jian swords on this forum, and I did look at many modern replicas/creations. I figured my sword was prolly circa 1900, and given its unique handle I figured it wasn't intended for the colonial tourists and might be of good quality. for the original price I payed it didn't matter if it was just an old wall hanger. the second time I bough it it was more a issue of personal satisfaction. I though It would easily prove to be old... . the thought of it being bogus is a bit disappointing. I still think the reason it was made may be for personal use ,not sale, Maybe a Tai chi practitioner who liked buddha.
I have an affinity for the buddha . Its hanging on my wall like a good luck talisman. maybe that was its purpose seems like that's why some of them were made.
I did research Theravada Buddhism briefly and I Find it more appealing then Mahayana . But I did spend more time and had more fun researching Manjushri a bodhisattva in Mahayana Buddhism, He is depicted with a sword and a book. he is a primary interlocutor with Buddha.

how about the blade of my sword? looks like its got a good distal taper, and everything else looks good to me.

[JoeCanada42]

I found this Jian awhile ago and wanted to share the images, as I was previously talking about the Jian bird and the sword.

[JoeCanada42]

also concerning the Jian bird and the sword I wanted to share this

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,

When using the term "ethnic minority" I mean it in the sense of the Chinese census classification, which is conducted nationwide. "Ethnic minorities" are, by definition, not considered Chinese ethnically and in toto make up a minority of the overall population in China. That said, there are areas of the country where ethnic minorities exceed the number of ethnic Chinese. Southern Yunnan is one area where Buddhist ethnic minorities comprise the majority of the population. Buddhism is therefore the most prevalent religion in that part of China. Ren-Ren was alluding to this in his reply.

Cheers,

Ian.

Ian, thank you for this excellent response, and Ren Ren as well ! I really appreciate this detailed explanation as the ethnic and religious diversity in the vast Chinese sphere is very diverse. For those, like myself, who have mostly a lay knowledge of these areas on Chinese history and anthropology it really helps.

Best
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Don't we all dream of finding the saber carried by Genghis Cohen?
Dig deep enough on the internet, one of us lucky bums might just find it!

Some years ago, I saw something written by some chap about a jian attributed to Marco Polo (yep, it was really that old!). Don't remember the whole backstory that he presented, something about it possibly being a gift of Kubilai Kahn? I do remember meeting the author at sword shows in the distant path, he took himself very seriously so did not think that his article was penned in jest.


Absolute classics Philip!!! Your resounding knowledge on these topics is clearly paralleled by your amazing wit and humor!!! You showed remarkable restraint apparently in your meeting this imaginative author.
Genghis Cohen??? :) LOL. Wasnt there a Chicago lawyer by that name who spent a lifetime looking for the tomb. Also I think there was an old movie (Boris Karloff?) on the tomb of Genghis Khan?

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, you might have a better grasp of this after digging deeper into the historical narrative. The Dutch sinologist R van Gulick wrote an interesting article on the significance of the jian, along with the zither, to scholars. Ming writers on connoisseurship do discuss swords among the other things that cultivated gentlemen should appreciate. These discussions dealt with the civilian as opposed to the military sector of society. Also of interest is what the Qing emperor Kangxi (r 1682-1722) wrote about the futility of trying to disarm the common people in some areas of China.

Further inquiry into the role of secret societies in old China might also be fruitful. It seems that the imperial government had some toleration for their activities, providing they were not overtly political, and insofar as they provided a means for local communities to police themselves to a limited extent. Much as minor legal functions, especially those of a familial or contractual nature, were often left to clans and guilds to handle. With a somewhat constrained tax base, and large expenditures in other areas like public works, stipends and perks for the ruling elite, and military campaigns, this helped stretch the resources of a government ruling an empire whose provinces were larger than some European countries.



Well explained Philip, and it would be understandable that observance of the political climate would vary in degree regionally and with regard to certain circumstances. Some time ago I was researching the 'secret societies' etc. along with acquisition of this ring pommel 'Ba Gwa' saber from Scott (in the 90s).
It is from the 'Eight Trigram' rebellion (Millenarian) of c. 1813 and that symbol can be seen near the tip. Apparently the sword has the 'name' 'kill demons' in the Chinese inscription something to the effect of the 'time of Wan-Li'.

I wanted to share it here along with the discussion. It seems these type sabers were used by Chinese martial artists in the exhibitions intended to 'impress' the legations during the "Boxer Rebellion".

[kronckew]

Don't we all dream of finding the saber carried by Genghis Cohen?
Dig deep enough on the internet, one of us lucky bums might just find it!
...
There is a fairly high mathematical chance that I am a descendant of this Genghis chap. As such, with that connection, I feel I can say that the chances of this sword being his are less than the chances I will win the European Lottery. And I'm not even entered in it.

Personally, I feel the rust is way too uniform, especially in the 'engraved' bits. I'd expect some on an old sword to have transitioned to the black form of oxide, especially in the grooved parts.

Also, the style of the dragon appears rather odd to me. The 19c chinese 'fake swords for those who travel' industry was well underway in the 19c Qing era. If you could disassemble the grip by unscrewing the pommel, and look at the tang might be revealing.

[Philip]

also concerning the Jian bird and the sword I wanted to share this

Hi, Joe

Thanks much for sharing additional pics. The one in the scabbard, shown diagonally with a karabela pommel below, has features that point to it being a bona fide antique, probably late 19th to dawn of 20th cent. To be confirmed with an overall view and more details if you're interested in discussing it more. The one in the detail shots of blade décor appears to be post-1949, based on the style of inlays, and from what I can see of the guard. I saw brand-new swords with exactly the same workmanship and design for sale in China during a visit back in the late 1970s, and they were sold as martial arts equipment and not represented as antiques.

In the final analysis, if you see a sword for sale and it fits within the parameters of your interest in the subject (whether it be as a martial artist, or an interest in spirituality, or in historical objects as a record of art history and traditional technology), go ahead and enjoy! Individual preferences vary. No harm done, so long as you have an idea of what things are valued at, and are not the victim of a seller's deception.

[Ren Ren]

Apparently the sword has the 'name' 'kill demons' in the Chinese inscription something to the effect of the 'time of Wan-Li'.

I apologize for interfering!
The following is written on this sword:
大明萬歴年製
dàmíng wàn lì nián zhì
"Great Ming Dynasty to rule for ten thousand years!"

[JoeCanada42]

Thank you Philip for the support and for looking at my sword,
and thanks everyone else as well

I have found a similar pommeled Jian with some differences and a different blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixE4Qk_evrc

at about 2:05

Licorne Blanche Kung fu School ?????

I guess this means my sword is not as old or unique as I Hoped.

The video does leave me with a few questions...

[JoeCanada42]

the sword with the karabela hilt comparison, I found it online, and I only used when discussing some research on the symbol that often appears on the Jian.

the Sword with the engravings on the blade I saw sell on eBay for a considerable amount more. and I would have guessed was an old one...

[JoeCanada42]

concerning the YouTube video and my sword.

3 - Epée de Maître de Kung fu Bouddhiste, tête du bouddha Sâkyamuni "Le bouddha voit tout". Fourreau (étui) en bois et peau de requin naturel verni, "galuchat à petits grains", épée du Sud de la Chine. Lame rigide. Lame droite, à doubles tranchants avec les sept points en laiton incrusté, les sept étoiles "Qi Xing Jian".
C´est une épée rare, Chinoise, qui était utilisée par les pratiquants de Kung-Fu Bouddhiste et adeptes du mouvement spirituel Taoïste.

Authentic Chinese weapons from the 18th century and reproductions from originals.
Private collection.

[kronckew]

Full section of video description translated:
============================

Replica of Han Dynasty Imperial Court Sword "206 BC - 9 AD"
YEN MAO DAO, 19th century.
Chinese classic swords from the myths of the 3 traditional and ancient Dynasties. Private collection of the White Unicorn Kung Fu School.
"A weapon has no destiny, it is the one who uses it who creates one".
The straight sword is a weapon that has been used by Chinese warriors for over 2,500 years. It is the ultimate weapon for any martial arts master or knight. The Chinese sword has a whole mystical and fantastic connotation. Born from the fire of the bowels of the earth, the blades of the swords are all unique.
Since the Ming Dynasty "1369-1644" there are two main kinds of straight swords: the military warrior sword "Wu Jian" and the noble civilian sword "Wen Jian".
On the blade of the Taoist sword are inlaid seven small copper pellets. The sword is named after Qi Xing Jian, or seven-star sword, in memory of the Celestial Emperor and his seven daughters.

1 - Simple dragon and phoenix sword of the sky, Taoist sword of kung fu master, "protector of the sky". Polished steel scabbard. Sword from central China. Semi-flexible blade. Wen Jian.
2 - Sword of Taoist governor, knight of kung fu, the two heavenly dragons It represents ancestral loyalty. Traditional Chinese black lacquered wooden scabbard, central Chinese sword. Rigid blade. Wu Jian.
3 - Sword of Master of Kung fu Buddhist, head of Sâkyamuni Buddha "The Buddha sees everything". Scabbard (case) in wood and natural varnished sharkskin, "small-grained shagreen", sword from southern China. Rigid blade. Straight blade, double-edged with the seven inlaid brass points, the seven stars "Qi Xing Jian".
It is a rare Chinese sword that was used by Buddhist Kung-Fu practitioners and followers of the Taoist spiritual movement.

Authentic Chinese weapons from the 18th century and reproductions from originals.
============================

It doesn't specify which are originals (if any) and which are repos, but the Buddah one's bright work looks suspiciously new. I'm surprised they let them rust near the blade root.

[mariusgmioc]

I have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords but what I know is that it is extremely, extremely difficult to find genuine antique fighting jian swords.

Even before the rise of Communism in China, old swords were frequently molten and the steel reused, and the majority of extant examples are decorative/tai chi ones from 1900 or later.

On top of that, because of extreme rarity of genuine antique swords, even from the beginning of the 20th century (1900 and later) there was a booming industry of producing "antique" jian swords that ranged in quality from examples that are practically undistinguishable from the originals to phantasy antiquated examples. These swords were aimed not only for the foreign amateurs of exotic souvenirs but also for the internal market, as they were both considered to bring good luck while being symbolic weapons for martial arts practitioners.

[JoeCanada42]

Thank You Kronckew, for the full English translations

and thanks Marius for the info,

Personally the though of a battle weapon wasn't a consideration in the purchase,, finding an old talisman sword was interesting enough. I couldn't see the buddha sword being used in battle. but I did suspect a temple sword or talisman sword that could be old.

[Jim McDougall]

I apologize for interfering!
The following is written on this sword:
大明萬歴年製
dàmíng wàn lì nián zhì
"Great Ming Dynasty to rule for ten thousand years!"


Ren Ren, THANK YOU!! I was having difficulty getting accurate translation of that panel. This makes good sense considering the context of the Eight Trigram rebellion,
Very much appreciated,
Jim

[Ren Ren]

Jim, this is my pleasure!

I agree that this inscription in context indicates that the sword belonged to the anti-Qing rebels.
Serge

[Philip]

I have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords but what I know is that it is extremely, extremely difficult to find genuine antique fighting jian swords.

Even before the rise of Communism in China, old swords were frequently molten and the steel reused, and the majority of extant examples are decorative/tai chi ones from 1900 or later.

On top of that, because of extreme rarity of genuine antique swords, even from the beginning of the 20th century (1900 and later) there was a booming industry of producing "antique" jian swords that ranged in quality from examples that are practically undistinguishable from the originals to phantasy antiquated examples. These swords were aimed not only for the foreign amateurs of exotic souvenirs but also for the internal market, as they were both considered to bring good luck while being symbolic weapons for martial arts practitioners.

Having handled, researched, and restored many of these "extreme rarity" swords since the 1970s, I must disagree. It's easy to assume from the tons of crappy fakes floating around that the genuine old ones are very rare, but not necessarily so. Many older blades have been remounted, at later periods and even in modern times. Museums such as the Met, and the Peabody-Essex Museum (Salem, MA) have extensive collections of antique Chinese sabers and swords (not all on display, many have to been seen in the depot), so a study of these, and comparison with those seen on the market and in private collections, can give a serious researcher a good idea of what's the real deal, what's BS, and what's been monkeyed with.

And contrary to what you state, it's not all that difficult to distinguish pieces made for the 19th cent. curio trade from those of earlier periods, there are notable qualitative and design differences. If you "have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords" perhaps this might explain your perception. It's as though I, who have little knowledge or appreciation of keris, would try to venture opinions on what is old and important versus the new stuff being circulated in the contemporary collectors' marketplace.

[Kubur]

And contrary to what you state, it's not all that difficult to distinguish pieces made for the 19th cent. curio trade from those of earlier periods, there are notable qualitative and design differences.

I agree at 100%. I have several Chinese swords and they are all in between 1850 and 1920. The 1900-1920 swords and the so-called boxer rebellion are not difficult to find. The problem is when people don't know they mix everything. Look at the post 36:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=261793&postcount=36

Two swords completely different, but they "look" the same of course...
Plus don't rely on museums, they do huge mistakes (Royal armouries museum for example)...

[kronckew]

After many Oops's here and elsewhere, I've learned:

1. Always take Museum and Auction House item descriptions with a grain of salt. Their source may have just repeated a label he was given by a previous owner, or 'Improved' on it to make the item more attractive. Or the 'expert' just guessed.
2. If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't.
3. Caveat Emptor.
4. Many 'Experts' aren't.
5. Google is not your friend.
6.If an Item has been inventoried, photographed and shown publicly for over a century and well documented, and other examples exist from reputable sources, it just might really be an antique.
7.They made 'replicas' well over a hundred years ago for collectors and those who travel.
7a. Sightseeing has been a popular sport from millennia or longer.
7b. People also commissioned copies of stuff they admired. Especially if they were unlikely to actually be used when the fit hits the shan, like French (& English) senior officers 'Mameluke' sabres and US Marine officers.
7c. Some fakes are better made with better steel than the originals.
8. The blurrier the photo the more likely it's a fake.
9. Always carry a knife. (Gibb's rule #9)
10. Sometimes I forget to read my own rules.
10a. There are more numbers to add to this list I haven't found yet.

[mariusgmioc]

The opinion I posted above is what I learned from a Chinese curator.

A few years ago, I wanted to sell two "19th century" jian swords, and I thought I can fetch a better price selling them in China with a Chinese auction house.

So I contacted one of the largest auction houses in Beijing, and one in Hong Kong asking them if they would like to take my swords. They both declined, citing problems with authenticity. So I asked for details and the guy from Beijing (who was also working with a big museum there) explained me what I essentially summarised above.

So I ended selling them with an European auction house.

Boxer Rebellion took place in 1899-1901... and their main weapon of choice was the dao.

[Philip]

The opinion I posted above is what I learned from a Chinese expert.



So I contacted one of the largest auction houses in Beijing, and one in Hong Kong asking them if they would like to take my swords. They both declined, citing problems with authenticity. So I asked for details and the guy from Beijing (who was also working with a big museum there) explained me what I essentially summarised above.



Yes indeed. The two posts just previous, by Kubur and Kronckew, aptly point out the hazards of relying on "experts". Relying on Chinese auction "experts" has special shortcomings. The antiques collecting and trade in the PRC is a comparatively recent revival after having been decimated by the fanaticism of the Mao years. Destruction of the "Four Olds", including both things and ideas. (Have you seen the movie "The Red Violin"? The China segment of the story is as close to history as cinema can get.) Keep in mind that this is a country with a regime that limits access to knowledge and tries to control the historical narrative.

When I mentioned my decades-long research into this field (others too like early firearms ) it did not involve just looking at pictures and going through catalog cards in museums. It took getting permission to handle all this stuff in person, lots of it, taking a ton of notes and photos. Discussing with curators, and also looking at depiction in period photos, art work, etc. Comparing styles and craftsmanship with that in analogous applied arts of various periods. Working with colleagues who read the lingo a lot better than I, determining in the process that there are such documents as gazetteers, palace inventories, military production specs, and so forth. Getting the "big picture" from the historical narrative -- about trade, conquest, fashion. Looking at developments in fields such as the metalworking and furniture industries going back to Ming times and even before for an insight into raw materials production and procurement. A lot of geek stuff like this. You find out soon that the Boxer Rebellion is not the huge benchmark that most collectors seem to think it is.

Just look at Donald LaRocca's magisterial book on Tibetan arms, Warriors of the Himalayas... Before this was published, the comment from most collectors was, "is there any info to be had about this field?", having known only Stone's Glossary and perhaps Egerton's Handbook of Indian Arms. Think about the amount of digging that Mr LaRocca had to do to pull this off.

There is a Harvard PhD, H H Kang, whose thesis on Korean matchlocks is groundbreaking. Surviving examples of the guns are relatively few, thanks to disarmament of the country by the Japanese and the massive losses of the Korean War. But by means of broad-ranging and thorough research he has come up with an amazing body of info, and I can say from personal correspondence that he isn't done yet.

[kronckew]

Another thought on context; I've read that the Jian was a 'scholars' sword, for their self-defence. Presumably this was a subject they also studied to be effective with it.

...But what else did 'Scholars' study, aside from learning the tens of thousands of characters and combinations of them.

The Chinese Government was based on Confucianism. The system required testing, written and oral exams, not only for entry, but for advancement to the next higher level. If you didn't pass the exam, you stayed at your current level. No rising to your level of incompetence, you stayed at your last level of competence. The study of the Jian was considered to take a lifetime. The Military preferred the Dao, which you learned fast, or died in battle. The Dao was also part of a weapons system with shields, armour, pole arms, artillery, missile weapons, strategy and tactics, not needed by civilians who liked to dance in well regulated patterns, the Dao was for killing, the Jian for showing off.

[JoeCanada42]

Kronckew, I dunno if I would agree, I would argue for fun that the Jian is More deadly. If you were going to encounter a person with any armor at all, picking out a spot and puncturing would probably work better than cutting. the tapered blade makes the jian look more effective at blocking than a saber, the jian has a larger range for defense and a larger amount of movement for attack , it is also double edged. The Jian may need more education and skill which in turn would also make it more deadly, I would say its the smart choice, not showing off. maybe the Dao was more suitable for the militia because as you said it was easier to use etc.

[Philip]

Another thought on context; I've read that the Jian was a 'scholars' sword, for their self-defence. Presumably this was a subject they also studied to be effective with it.

...But what else did 'Scholars' study, aside from learning the tens of thousands of characters and combinations of them.

The Chinese Government was based on Confucianism. The system required testing, written and oral exams, not only for entry, but for advancement to the next higher level. If you didn't pass the exam, you stayed at your current level. No rising to your level of incompetence, you stayed at your last level of competence. The study of the Jian was considered to take a lifetime. The Military preferred the Dao, which you learned fast, or died in battle. The Dao was also part of a weapons system with shields, armour, pole arms, artillery, missile weapons, strategy and tactics, not needed by civilians who liked to dance in well regulated patterns, the Dao was for killing, the Jian for showing off.

Well, the foray into Confucious and the Chinese civil service is quite a stretch, isn't it? What the examination system had to do with the jian and its use isn't exactly clear, but let me think about it.

What this does sound like is the sort of thing I've heard over many years of gun shows, collectors' meetings, and auction previews. Folks taking a bit of knowledge and extrapolating willy-nilly. Have heard earfuls regarding European swords and swordsmanship. People whose only exposure to traditional Western armed combat is Olympic fencing and Hollywood costume dramas expounding on eight centuries of swordplay in Europe. And how the sword in Europe essentially became irrelevant with the steady improvement of firearms. Irrelevant? I would recommend J. C. Amberger's The Secret History of the Sword for its analysis of how the use of cold steel has remained a vital and serious field of study and training down to the 20th cent.

Another case is the understanding of the small-sword in relation to its predecessor, the rapier. It is true that small-swords as part of a diplomat's formal dress and the regalia of the Académie Française are symbolic props, but to dismiss these weapons as fashion statements or "all for show" misses the point that they originated well back into the 17th cent. when swordsmanship was an important skill for civilians of a certain class. And that it is the result of a few decades' worth of transition from the true rapier, which would imply that functional parameters connected with fighting styles were at play. Funny thing, I remember a heated discussion I had with a gent who claimed that the smallsword was not a real weapon, it was only a piece of male attire like cufflinks or a tie-clip. And that European swordfighting techniques couldn't hold a candle to Japanese since in the West, it was mainly a sport and not real combat. Oh, I should mention that the "expert" who was lecturing me was a kendo practitioner (and a weekend duffer, at that). Last I checked, these guys do their thing with fasciculated strips of bamboo, not steel blades. Sport or combat?

[Ian]

Well, the foray into Confucious and the Chinese civil service is quite a stretch, isn't it? What the examination system had to do with the jian and its use isn't exactly clear, but let me think about it. ... Thanks Philip. Much appreciated if you can bring Confucius, the Chinese civil service, and the examination system into focus with regard to the jian and its use. Wayne's comments are a bit "fuzzy" to me.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you Philip for the very interesting information!

Reading your explanation I remembered another very interesting aspect:

the museums in China have very small collections of Chinese porcelain.

And this is because of two main reasons:
1. throughout the whole history of China, porcelain was a main export product and was exported in massive quantities;
2. during Mao's "Cultural Revolution" porcelain has been considered as a symbol of aristocracy and decadence and was systematically destroyed.

So I was thinking that maybe the "Cultural Revolution" thing may have impacted the jian swords as they also were a symbol of aristocracy. :shrug:

[Philip]

Thanks Philip. Much appreciated if you can bring Confucius, the Chinese civil service, and the examination system into focus with regard to the jian and its use. Wayne's comments are a bit "fuzzy" to me.


Ian, after thinking about it more, I also can't help but find his comments to be, as you say, "fuzzy". There seems to be no clear nexus between the jian and Confucian ideology (essentially a framework governing social structure and political morality) or the governmental structure itself.

Since Wayne does comment on the role of the jian (straight double edged) and the dao (single edged, either straight backsword or curved saber), how about an historical overview to put all this in some sort of developmental context.

1. The first hilt weapon (with longish blade) to hit the scene in China was the sword (jian), made of bronze, first appearing during classical antiquity, during the feudalistic Zhou period prior to unification. It predated the use of long single-edged blades and for awhile it was the only game in town as far as swords went.

2. The backsword, zhibeidao (literally "straight backed knife") came into use towards the end of the Zhou, first in bronze then later in iron and eventually steel. It was used alongside the jian and became increasingly popular during the consolidation and unification of the feudal states into a centralized empire (Qin Dynasty, 3rd cent. BC).

3. During the succeeding Eastern and Western Han Dynasties, which more or less coincided with the late Roman Republic and early Empire, both weapons remained in use, although the backsword gradually became more important in a military role.


4. During the medieval dynasties, both blade types underwent a design change, in terms of hilts and scabbard suspension, influenced by the swords of pre-Islamic Iran, whose culture helped shape that of China in terms of the sciences, cuisine, music and arts (Buddhism also reached China via western Asia from India, also accounting for these cultural linkages). This "new" style Chinese sword mounting was also adopted by the Koreans and Japanese, which explains the considerable outward similarities between 7th-9th cent. swords from Iran, China, and Japan seen at such institutions as the Met and the Shô-sô-in (Nara, Japan).

5. Later in the medieval period, during the Song Dynasties (10th-13th cent.) the jian hilt changed again, to a form not much dissimilar to the familiar shape known today. The backsword continued in its military role but its worth noting that in the 11th cent. military compendium WUJING ZONGYAO the double edged sword is listed as one of the close-combat hilt weapons as well.

6. The saber (peidao) with its CURVED single edged blade, makes its debut on a large scale during the short-lived Mongol Dynasty (13th-14th cent.). From the researches by Kyrill Rivkin et al, we are all no doubt familiar with origins of the saber among Eurasian steppe nomad cultures, and its spread to surrounding "sedentary" agricultural- and commercially-based states by way of the migration and conquests of Inner Asian peoples from the Avars to the Timurids.

7. By the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) the saber gained in importance in the military, and the backsword declined and practically disappeared (surviving only in the Himalayan kingdoms of Tibet and Bhutan, and to a limited extent in Korea). The jian increasingly became a civilian weapon, somewhat analogous to the rapier in Europe at about the same time.

8. This pattern of use continued into the last imperial dynasty, the Qing (Manchu) , 1644-1911. Manchu guards officers were known to practice with the jian for sport, and commoners in the more unsettled provinces and districts of the empire carried short-bladed jian for self-defense or more nefarious purposes according to local gazetteers and official documents of the era. The Kangxi emperor (r 1682-1722) had to deal with complaints from provincial officials about armed civilians causing mischief with various weapons, but his memoirs indicate that trying to disarm them was probably more trouble than it was worth since as foreign interlopers, the Manchus were wary of discontented subjects being goaded into rebellion.

A survey of the considerable numbers of jian in museum collections, and of the historical literature, can tell us something about the usage of these weapons, as correlated to their design.
A. There are a number of blade configurations from various periods that point to distinct functional parameters -- Long, narrow, thick, and notably tapered blades, almost reminiscent of rapiers though without the extreme length, popular during the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. Somewhat broader cut-and-thrust blades with fairly aggressive distal taper. Slightly narrower ones with more obtuse edge geometry. We do know that there were a number of fencing styles taught during the late imperial period, and there is probably a correlation.

B. Distinct forms of blades and hilts were reserved for ritual or votive swords connected with popular Taoist practice. The blades are typically inlaid with emblems and inscriptions not found in weapons in Group A. The religious significance of the double-edged sword is also strong in Buddhism, and nowhere is this more apparent than in neighboring Japan, where the ken has been reserved for use as temple regalia, often lavishly mounted in very Indic or Tantric-inspired motifs

C. Touristic curios, widely produced during the end of the Qing through the pre-WW II years, which are non-functional (blades often not tempered), gaudily decorated in stereotypical designs.

D. Equally non-functional but plainer versions made for exercise, beginning in the early years of the Republic, to go along with a revival of traditional martial skills like boxing and archery. This degenerated into the showy "wushu" techniques promoted by the Communist regime after 1949.

[Philip]

Thank you Philip for the very interesting information!

Reading your explanation I remembered another very interesting aspect:

the museums in China have very small collections of Chinese porcelain.

And this is because of two main reasons:
1. throughout the whole history of China, porcelain was a main export product and was exported in massive quantities;
2. during Mao's "Cultural Revolution" porcelain has been considered as a symbol of aristocracy and decadence and was systematically destroyed.

So I was thinking that maybe the "Cultural Revolution" thing may have impacted the jian swords as they also were a symbol of aristocracy. :shrug:

You're most welcome, Marius!

It might be useful to remember also that the anti-aristocratic attitude predates Mao, we see it after the 1911 revolution that toppled the monarchy. Just like in France in 1792 and Russia post-1917. A lot of articles associated with the Manchu rulers were destroyed -- mandarins' uniforms and hats, insignia and flags, official seals, and (sadly) documents that historians would love to have available today.

Mao's Red Guards targeted ALL antiques. That's why the shortages of objects in museums. Antiques dealers and collectors were harassed, arrested, and on occasion sent to camps to be "re-educated". Because antiques collecting was considered a BOURGEOISE habit, and you know how Communists hate that class!

Funny story -- when I spent a month in the USSR in the 1980s, I took some cigars with me to enjoy, not knowing if I could get them there. What a pleasure, puffing on one in the park, or at a café. Some folks stopped to look -- I thought it's because I'm a funny looking guy with a bald head, but no, it was the cigar. Soviet citizens just didn't do cigars. Someone told me that the prejudice was a holdover from old propaganda associating cigar smoking with fat cat capitalists in their expensive suits sitting on bags of ill-gotten money squeezed from the proletariat!

[mariusgmioc]

Cigars you said?!

Was like wearing an infamy badge saying "I'm a bloody capitalist suckling on the blood of the working class"... :)

[kronckew]

...
Some folks stopped to look -- ..., it was the cigar. ...

Probably just because cigars smell really bad. :rolleyes::D

[josh stout]

Philip- Your brief history of the Chinese sword is a useful little reference guide. Too bad it is hidden deep in a post based on such a poor, recent example.

I also liked your comments on what people sometimes called "dragon well" swords with the etched dragon and phoenix, and seven etched stars. You mention seeing them brand new in China in the late 70s. My teacher and his wife picked up a couple in China at about that time, and they are recognizably the same. I bought several for not much in the mid 80s and early 90s to practice with, and ended up giving them to friends so I could make room for antiques. Now I see 80s era ones on eBay for many hundreds of dollars, while new ones are still available in Chinatown.

On the original jian in this post, I used to try and be charitable, and say they might be "vintage", but I think that is only if "vintage" is between 10-25 years old.

As for secret societies, I would say they are central aspects of Chinese culture. Most Indonesian Chinese temples have their own set of Kilin dancers, despite them having been being illegal under Suharto. The Kilin societies are also martial arts schools and neighborhood protection groups. I understand it is similar in Taiwan.

My martial arts group got free sake for years in NYC when it turned out the restaurant was run by Chinese Indonesians. We were the boys from the temple.

[Philip]

My martial arts group got free sake for years in NYC when it turned out the restaurant was run by Chinese Indonesians. We were the boys from the temple.

Conservative or Reform?

[JoeCanada42]

Josh-stout, your opinion drew me back to this thread,, as said before sometimes new swords are made to a better quality than the old ones, I found an example of my sword being called a Tai chi masters sword, to my understanding they use battle ready swords for cutting tests.
I still haven't seen any other similar examples except the one in that video and another one with similar fittings not the pommel called 19c which remains for auction. I have seen a recent YouTube video where they talk about all the points of a good Jian besides the balance point, which are all good on my sword to be a user. ill link the video.
I have had a lot of fun with the sword, I can do several spinning hand moves and can consistently hear the hasuji or sword wind cutting sound when practicing cuts. its definitely well enough to be a user in my opinion.
there is signs of age on the blade so
I seriously doubt it is modern or recent, or I think we would see some similar examples on the market, I don't think the functional quality is poor at all, just the finish on the fittings, I heard the Jian sword is meant to break the opponents sword and even cut through amour. anyways its proven to be more unique than any other modern ones I see, and more interesting then the comparable vintage ones that sell for a lot. the fittings may look poor but the sword until thoroughly tested could prove to be good quality, recent, vintage or antique.
I am gaining more appreciation for the qualities of this sword, I would rather it wasn't put down , id bet it would cut in half most other jians I see for sale.

[JoeCanada42]

these videos were new on youtube and i found them very informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iac6Ie4snUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H67oI6pv8U4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvbKzvUm8rA

[JoeCanada42]

I no longer believe this one is for sale so ill post some picks. it is the only other sword apart from the one in the YouTube video, that is similar to mine. until recently it was listed with augeo gallery and in 2016 it looks like it was listed with helios, they call it 19c. it has the same scabbard fittings and the guard but without buddha and the different pommel, the blade also looks newer. and is longer.

[JoeCanada42]

id love to know what it says, I notice the pommel is one solid piece with the ferrule, where as my Jian is missing the pommel ferrule

[Ren Ren]

These are the opening lines from "Song of the Precious Sword" 宝剑篇 by poet Li Qiao 李 嶠 (654? -714?), included in a collection compiled by another poet of the Tang Dynasty, Cui Rong 崔 融 (653-706).
Lines are broken, missing characters are enclosed in square brackets, line-by-line according to a modern Chinese source.

吴山开，
越溪涸，
三金合冶[成宝锷]。
淬绿水，
鉴红云，
五彩焰起[光氛氲]。

My translation is probably not very good - it is a complex poetic text filled with ancient symbols.
"Mount Wushan opened,
The stormy stream falling [from her] has dried up,
Three metals combined in an alloy [turned into a precious [double-edged] blade].
Tempered in crystal clear water
In the Hongyun (Red Cloud) vessel,
From the five-colored flame (magical spiritual power) [a brilliance of courage (prosperity)] appears".

Mount Wushan is located in Shaanxi Province. Hongyun may be the name of the mountain, or perhaps a proper name, it is not clear. The stormy stream falling from the mountains may be an allusion to the legendary beauty Xi Shi "destroying kingdoms".
The lines engraved on the blade are interrupted - the person who took the sword in hand had to finish them from memory. This is such a graceful Chinese game of education and erudition, widespread among scientists and officials. On this basis, we can confidently assume that the sword was unlikely to belong to a military man or a nouveau riche merchant.

[JoeCanada42]

Thank You very much Ren Ren for the great assistance, what a cool translation, I wonder about the alloy.

[josh stout]

Yes, that is also a new sword. The yellow orange ray skin is a give away, but also everything else.

Do you see that line running lengthwise? That is a fake forging error. It is supposed to mark where the sanmai edge and body meet. A cold shut, or other similar forging error is the kind of thing that you should look for in an antique, but that one is huge and ugly. It is there to convince the unwary that the blade is sanmai, but is actually a sign saying "stay away".

Take some time to acquaint yourself with antiques in general. Unfortunately Chinese antiques are one of the worst places to start. Almost every Chinese antique you see will be a recent reproduction, and that includes swords. Reproductions from the 1990s are starting to acquire a little age, but they are still reproductions.

To see pictures of actual antiques, you need to go to the websites of reputable dealers who specialize in Chinese swords. You can also look at pictures posted in these discussion groups, if the community opinion supports the posted example as an original.

If you look elsewhere for examples of reproductions listed as antiques, you will find them.

To see a good variety of reproductions, simply look up "antique Chinese sword" on eBay, and look at full length jian with complete fittings.

Every single one is less than forty years old.

[Iain]

Yes, that is also a new sword. The yellow orange ray skin is a give away, but also everything else.

Do you see that line running lengthwise? That is a fake forging error. It is supposed to mark where the sanmai edge and body meet. A cold shut, or other similar forging error is the kind of thing that you should look for in an antique, but that one is huge and ugly. It is there to convince the unwary that the blade is sanmai, but is actually a sign saying "stay away".

Take some time to acquaint yourself with antiques in general. Unfortunately Chinese antiques are one of the worst places to start. Almost every Chinese antique you see will be a recent reproduction, and that includes swords. Reproductions from the 1990s are starting to acquire a little age, but they are still reproductions.

To see pictures of actual antiques, you need to go to the websites of reputable dealers who specialize in Chinese swords. You can also look at pictures posted in these discussion groups, if the community opinion supports the posted example as an original.

If you look elsewhere for examples of reproductions listed as antiques, you will find them.

To see a good variety of reproductions, simply look up "antique Chinese sword" on eBay, and look at full length jian with complete fittings.

Every single one is less than forty years old.

Exactly this, there are a number of excellent collections available online from museums like the MET as Philip I believe has already mentioned in this thread, which are a much better starting point. Unfortunately even large auction houses which maybe have realized high prices are not even a good indicator of authenticity.

[Ren Ren]

Here are two more photos of the same blade. I must admit that I like him.

[JoeCanada42]

wow , Ren Ren, very nice photos, where did u get them?,, or? are you actually owner :) ???

[Ren Ren]

This sword was discussed at the Russian Weapons Forum a year and a half ago. The discussion was heated and the opinions of the judges were divided :)

P.S. I don't know if the rules allow direct links to other forums?

[Philip]

Yes, that is also a new sword. The yellow orange ray skin is a give away, but also everything else.



Excellent points in your post, Josh. I'd like to remark on the one highlighted observation above. Not only the color gives the rayskin away, but the manner in which it is finished is a giveaway as well.

Antique jian with rayskin grips are generally late, from the end of the Qing to the early Republic, although there are exceptions of course. The thing to remember, though, is that in the case of bona fide antiques (and I would consider swords made in traditional style and manner in, say, the 1920s to be antiques since they are part of a continuous tradition going well back into the imperial age), the rayskin on the scabbard is invariably polished, and that on the grip is left au naturel , i.e. in the "bumpy" state that it was in on the live fish, and typically in the natural color as well.

I have seen a few old kid's size swords (very much scaled down in all dimensions proportionately) with polished and colored rayskin to match on grip and scabbard, but never on a full-sized adult version.

I agree with your comments on the one posted previously on this thread. Thanks much for sharing your knowledge and observations as well.