African cuirass?

[Panoleon]

I have bought this unusual cuirass. It is an iron cuirass with a crocodile skin lining. The skin is riveted to the cuirass with brass/copper rivets. On the front a cross made with ornamental studs. Dimensions 30 x 40 cm.
Can someone shed some light on the origins and date of this piece?

[Jim McDougall]

This is an incredibly interesting item, and in my view is likely an armor from Benin, in West Africa. These kinds of armor were worn by warriors of a kind of society known as a leopard hunting guild (in western perception). The leopard is highly feared in these regions, and typically the armor worn is a kind of cataphract style (overlapping scales) of the scaly anteater (pangolin).

However, the helmets accompanying these were often of crocodile hide, so it would seem possible that material would be used as well. It is noted that occasionally the materials might vary, and these are depicted iconographically in many figurines and art .While noted as a 'hunting' society these warriors were soldiers as well and these 'totemic ' identities of animals and reptiles seem prevalent in other West African 'societies' .

There was a 'crocodile society', whose activities like some of the other societies were pretty nefarious.

It could be this armor might have been from such a group as the 'crocodile society' as the members were believed to become crocodiles during the duration of activity.

Most armor of hides etc. in earlier times were strictly of animal material, along with magic talismans and imbuements which were foremost apotropaics.
It seems quite likely that with the advent of firearms, the addition of an iron under covering would be deemed reasonable in the latter 19th c.

So I would say, West African warriors cuirass, probably Benin, late 19th c.
The cross is a common holdover in West Africa from the Portuguese who deeply influenced the tribes. Rather than religious affectation, it was seen more in a talismanic or magic sense.

[Panoleon]

Thanks Jim, I am verry happy with your reaction.

[Kubur]

So you'll hate me, but please remember, that our forum is open to discussions. And we never know what we will get when we post an item.

This armour looks like a 1950ties or 1970ties film prop.

The forging technique doesn't look African, from the inside. The rivets don't look Africans. The leather on iron plate doesn't make any sense to me.

The bad condition is another thing, may be it was stored in a basement with a lot of humidity.

The only thing that I can see as African is the crocodile skin, or maybe an alligator's skin from Florida...

:shrug:

[Panoleon]

Thanks Kubur, ups and dows, thats how it goes. :)

[Panoleon]

Some more detail on the rivets. They look like leather rivets.
It's a well made piece for a film prop. The cuirass does show hammer marks.

[Jim McDougall]

So you'll hate me, but please remember, that our forum is open to discussions. And we never know what we will get when we post an item.

This armour looks like a 1950ties or 1970ties film prop.

The forging technique doesn't look African, from the inside. The rivets don't look Africans. The leather on iron plate doesn't make any sense to me.

The bad condition is another thing, may be it was stored in a basement with a lot of humidity.

The only thing that I can see as African is the crocodile skin, or maybe an alligator's skin from Florida...

:shrug:


Not at all Kubur! You have always made most astute and valuable observations here, and your suggestion is of course a viable consideration.
In looking at this most unusual item, it does not correspond in many ways to the West African armor I have described, however, as Christopher Spring notes in "African Arms & Armor", there seems to have been of course a degree of variations in styles and materials.

I think it is worthwhile to think of what sort of a movie or theatrical subject this would apply to. This sort of armor does not look 'Roman' or other classical types and surely would not be regarded as 'medieval' as the mail armor further east in Nigeria, Bornu into Chad which was actually often authentic European product.

When considering reproductions or 'props', there are certain 'nuances' which really would not be regarded as necessary to carry off the kind of allusion which such staged elements were intended for.
This pertains of course to the cross emplaced among the ornamental studding. A prop would require only normal linear studding.

Then the case of the actual 'iron' material. The use of such iron 'armor' to repel bullets was well known in a kind of 'experimental' stage in the last quarter of the 19th century. In clearly distant cases (to this African context) in Australia for example was the notorious outlaw Ned Kelly, who fashioned an elaborate suit of armor which looked almost like a theatrical robot for this very purpose. In the Civil War, there were instances of steel plates worn under clothing (usually quickly discarded for weight and discomfort).

As I had mentioned, in West Africa there were groups of warrior men (there was at least one womans as well) which were considered 'secret societies'. Much as with the Masonic situation and Freemasonry, there were often elaborate rituals, regalia and other such elements of organized protocol.

These groups were often engaged in subversive activity given the colonial occupations, as well as certain intertribal warfare. The traditions of these groups called for magically imbued armor (such as the pangolin hide or crocodile/cayman) as had been used for almost centuries.

With the modern threat of firearms becoming a key factor, why wouldnt a tribesman wear the traditional armor cleverly cloaking the bullet proof iron?
As mention, this is why I suggest late 19th century, in the period when these kinds of bullet deterrents were being tried.

In analogy, I was once researching an unusual Spanish leather armor (cuera), which defied any possible resemblance to the known rawhide jackets of the 18th century soldados. It looked more like a Roman toga with tassets and more strangely, was boiled bull hide (cuir boulli as had been used in earlier centuries in Europe for such armor).
The museum authorities insisted this had nothing to do with such armor, and was actually a 'santo' costume, figures used in Catholic churches.
This however did not explain the pragmatic process of the cuir boulli.

What I discovered was that this was a type of cuera indiginous to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and had been produced there during the Pueblo uprisings of 1690s. It had been found in a storage unit in Arizona after having been in it for decades. It was described as 'old Spanish leather armor', which of course was a stretch as it did not correspond to any such form known.

However, the break through was when an old painting (known as the Segesser) was discovered in Switzerland. The painting was by Indian artists (many Peublo were loyal to the Spaniards) from c. 1715. It was of an obscure and little known battle in Nebraska of Spaniards vs. French and Pawnee. In this, the Indian guides with the Spaniards were wearing THESE UNUSUAL CUERA!
The form had never been included in material on Spanish colonial arms as this painting, the only visual reference to it, had been sent to Switzerland by a Jesuit priest during their expulsion in 1770s. The painting was not found and recovered to New Mexico until 1980s. long after the references on Spanish arms had been produced.

Here I would submit, variations and curiosities cannot always be relegated to lesser context by absence of inclusion in references. The 'secret societies'of Africa, like these kinds of groups in many cultures etc. are often a kind of 'X factor' in studying certain types of anomalies in various fields.

[drac2k]

I am not knowledgeable in this area of collecting however I would like to make a couple of observations based on past experience.
First, the piece is well made and somewhat complex, and manufactured out of expensive materials. This armor would not be conducive for mass production for a movie prop(s), both in regards to the cost and assembly time. I have seen modern armor movie props and they are quite cheaply made.
Next, if this armor had been procured in the 1950s through the 1970s, it would have been much cheaper to obtain these pieces from a firm such as the now-defunct Bannermans which had these items en masse. I personally procured at auction several very fine authentic pieces in the 1980s(or 1990s), when a major motion picture studio deaccessioned hundreds of items.
I am only speaking from a layman's point of view and not from a scholarly knowledge of this field; plus I really like the item!

[Jim McDougall]

I am not knowledgeable in this area of collecting however I would like to make a couple of observations based on past experience.
First, the piece is well made and somewhat complex, and manufactured out of expensive materials. This armor would not be conducive for mass production for a movie prop(s), both in regards to the cost and assembly time. I have seen modern armor movie props and they are quite cheaply made.
Next, if this armor had been procured in the 1950s through the 1970s, it would have been much cheaper to obtain these pieces from a firm such as the now-defunct Bannermans which had these items en masse. I personally procured at auction several very fine authentic pieces in the 1980s(or 1990s), when a major motion picture studio deaccessioned hundreds of items.
I am only speaking from a layman's point of view and not from a scholarly knowledge of this field; plus I really like the item!


Well noted!!! I had not thought of the expense factor !!
A few years back I had a pair of 'gator' boots made,......eeeaaughh! and I got a good deal. This stuff is expensive!

Bannerman's stuff flooded the markets and in my opinion literally fueled the arms collecting phenomenon. The movie studio decaccession's, I knew guys who really cleaned up on this stuff back in the 80s.
Hollywood in the golden years did indeed use many authentic items of arms and armor. Actually the famed Rudolf Valentino ('The Sheik') became so intrigued by the swords he experienced in the sets,he became a bonified sword collector with the ones he admired most.

[fernando]

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?

[Panoleon]

The rivets are made of brass. They remind me of rivets that are used for combining pieces of leather. See the picture of the rivets I mean below. I'll make some better pictures tomorrow for some more detail.

[Kubur]

Did you notice the two missing pieces and the kind of glue at the location of the missing pieces?
Are they the horses from Gladiator?
I wonder what was there...
It seems to have been circular, look at the marks in the leather...

Jim I wish to believe the African track, but this thing is too strange and as I said it doesnt make any sense. Some film prop are very well made.

[Duccio]

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com/object/crocodile-skin-suit-of-armour

[fernando]

That would be the item you find in a zillion sources when googling on the subject. But doesn't seem to be one to help defining the the apparatus being discussed.

[Ren Ren]

I wonder what was there...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me that there should be lead seals with protective spells in this place. Or with an inventory number and owner / arsenal name. Which is less likely.

[Panoleon]

Thanks for al the reactions. I have made some detail pictures.
The model of the rivets don't look extremely old. I dont know when this type of rivets got in to use.
@ Kubur. Indeed. It looks like two round pieces are missing. Maybe some sort of atachment for leather slings to carry the cuirass. The grey stuff isn't glue, its some sort of molten metal. Probably lead.

[fernando]

Which would be the points fixing the hide to the inner part and those of the cuirass decoration ...


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[Jim McDougall]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me that there should be lead seals with protective spells in this place. Or with an inventory number and owner / arsenal name. Which is less likely.


well noted!!! in a number of the statues and art relating to these armored men there seem to be attachments of some kind. There were often amulets in the form of written invocations etc. in small containers attached in strategic places.

[Jim McDougall]

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com/object/crocodile-skin-suit-of-armour


This is exactly the circumstance I was referring to, 'cults' , These cults remained quite active well into the 20th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?


Exactly. I had meant to suggest that by saying 'the traditional old armor ' implying that the animal hide as used in older armor, may have been modified to protect the wearer against the modern threat of firearms. Here I noted that the use of iron sheeting (as used by Ned Kelly in Australia) was known by the end of the 19th c. and that members of these cults (I called societies) may have 'upgraded' their traditional armor to 'bulletproof'?

In ethnographic cultural context, traditional old items are often refurbished n order for use as heirlooms in the traditional convention.
Yes, in native sense arms and armor are in a sense 'alive', however in the addition of material to continue the 'life' of the armor, why not use leather liner instead of this heavy, hot, and extremely uncomfortable shield...unless it was infeed meant to deflect bullets.

Blades on swords are known to exist in native spheres for not only generations, but centuries. One of the oldest blades I recall us finding in the Sahara was medieval, around 15th c. and had apparently been in circulation for probably several hundred years. These blades are traditionally rehilted as they pass down through either family or trade.

Kubur, it is indeed an unusual item, and your idea of a prop of some kind is of course possible. Here I would note that another item I was involved in researching was a leather armor of cataphract (scaled) form was found in Texas desert near El Paso in the 1890s by an army trooper. It was heralded as evidence of Spanish exploration in the area from 16th c. The item was known as a 'mantle' and worn over shoulders.
Subsequent research revealed that the item had possibly been a costume element with a theater troupe or ceremonial item perhaps from fraternal group regalia. While the item was of significant age, it was certainly not 16th c. and likely repurposed in later use as suggested.

[colin henshaw]

This is an interesting and enigmatic item, thanks for posting. Was there any provenance to the piece ?

From the images, I am doubtful the cuirass was made in Africa, taking into account the style, method of construction and materials used. Although there is a possibility it was used in Africa. The brass/copper studs have a distinctive and recognizable pattern and are surely European made. The two flat round metal studs with remains of lead covering, the one one the left... is there a number "5" showing ? are they coins ? "

My feeling is there are two possibilities of origin :-

1. Its an early movie prop of the "Sword and Sandals" or "Peplum" genre. These in fact date quite far back to pre WW1 days and cuirasses in the style were popular. This is before the days of plastics, fibre-glass etc. I had a quick look at "Scipio Africanus : The Defeat of Hannibal" 1937 on YouTube. There are lots of cuirasses, although I didn't see one with crocodile hide.

2. Its a an object made up in Europe as a gift to a West African chief or potentate in the 19th century or earlier (either for his use or his bodyguards). Either a genuine breastplate or a Victorian reproduction could have been used and the croc hide covering would be deemed an appropriate touch. The crocodile being an important symbol in West Africa. Giving showy and gaudy items (such as uniforms, swords etc) to African rulers was common at the time, to facilitate the ivory and slave trade. Ridiculous as it may seem there is precedent ... when the Polynesian Omai was returned to Tahiti in the late 18th century by Captain Cook, one of the gifts he was provided with was a suit of armour !

The wet climate of coastal West Africa could account for the poor condition of the cuirass, which eventually found its way back to Europe as a curio.

Anyway, those are my hypotheses such as they are.

[Kubur]

@ Kubur. Indeed. It looks like two round pieces are missing. Maybe some sort of atachment for leather slings to carry the cuirass. The grey stuff isn't glue, its some sort of molten metal. Probably lead.

I don't think that the missing round pieces were for attachment, they are too low and studs are placed above and will disturb any leather slings.

Have you seen the cross in the middle (studs) maybe it's a Christian thing...

[fernando]

Given all that has been said, and on a second (third) thought, i would start from square one ...
... In that a guy had a piece of croc hide and decided to make a cuirass with it; a mock one, as for purposes other than for combat. The iron sheet he used looks too thin to avoid bullet penetration; look at the foldings. On the other hand, the decorative rosettes were not original to the hide, or their beaten nails would not show up in the present interior.
It also looks as the iron shell was a piece of iron salvaged from previous purposes, as denounced by those vertical series of useless holes.
This would takes us to two options; a theatrical prop or, some native setup ... this for fun or symbolism purposes. I would chose the indigenous setup, simply because i wouldn't see a prop maker getting hold of such old and fragilized piece of skin for modern purposes; after a couple takes in action, all those scales would crack and fall apart.
I bet you guys find this a feeble approach; but just don't tie me to the whipping post :o.


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[Panoleon]

No provenance, unfortunately.

The cuirass is actualy quite heavy. The arrows are pointing to a leather piece. Not the folded ends of the iron.

I'm happy with al your reactions. It's a remarkable piece and I have learned a lot!

[fernando]

So ... how heavy is it, Panoleon ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hmmmm,
I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa, one that comes to mind is the 'Crocodile guild'. There are others known as 'Leopard hunters' etc. who used the scaly anteater (pangolin) hide, however they wore crocodile hide helmets, so the use of crocodile hide is quite possible, if not likely (as per Spring, op.cit. noting variations of materials used).

Whether bullet proof or not, natives tended to believe something would be bullet proof if the 'magic' afforded it was intended to make it so. Examples are the war shirts emblazoned with symbols worn by American Indians, amulets used in the Sudan with the jibbahs worn etc. Native peoples were not necessarily well informed in the dynamics and ballistics of firearms, but were inclined to follow more the word of their shamans, medicine men etc.

To take an old cuirass, bolster it with iron for structure and protection from bullets to me, makes sense. This especially if within the protocols, ritual and regalia of thee West African warrior societies.

As for diplomatic gifts, it has been my understanding that such items were notable quality examples representing the culture of the presenter, not imitations of those they are giving it to.

The cross, as I had previously noted, was a commonly applied device from the Portuguese presence in West Africa, and adopted by the native people as a significant symbol of power or magic. It seems this became a well used element in West African material culture.

The use of European components simply reflects the influence, which was of course well established there.

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

The cueera (leather cuirass I mentioned earlier) made in New Mexico, by Pueblo artisans for the Spaniards, was fashioned using the long obsolete (in Europe) cuir bouilli process and styled in an ancient classical fashion of Rome.

The 'recyclng' and repurposng of materials is well known in Africa, in Sudan and other regions sword blades are made of old truck springs. Old coffee tins and misc. products are found in all types of native made items.
I still recall the Sudanese helmets embellished with forks and spoons .

[Panoleon]

So ... how heavy is it, Panoleon ?

2,2 kg.

[fernando]

I don't think that the missing round pieces were for attachment, they are too low and studs are placed above and will disturb any leather slings...
Tht's a good reasoning; but whatever devices they were, and for whatever reason, the owner found them dispensable. A riddle by itself.

[fernando]

... I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa...
Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction ;).

.. bullet proof or not, natives tended to believe something would be bullet proof if the 'magic' afforded it was intended to make it so...
Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? ;).

.. peoples were not necessarily well informed in the dynamics and ballistics of firearms, but were inclined to follow more the word of their shamans, medicine men etc...
A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.

...To take an old cuirass, bolster it with iron for structure and protection from bullets to me, makes sense...
You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?

. The cross, as I had previously noted, was a commonly applied device from the Portuguese presence in West Africa, and adopted by the native people as a significant symbol of power or magic. It seems this became a well used element in West African material culture...
More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.

...the use of European components simply reflects the influence, which was of course well established there.
Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?
You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.

.The 'recyclng' and repurposng of materials is well known in Africa, in Sudan and other regions sword blades are made of old truck springs.
Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.

... I still recall the Sudanese helmets embellished with forks and spoons .
Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture.


Yours faithful.


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[Jim McDougall]

Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction ;).


Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? ;).


A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.


You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?


More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.


Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).


You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.


Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.


Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture


Yours faithful.


.



Excellent redaction of my synopsis Fernando !!! :)

Looking into the esoterica of symbolism in the study of ethnographic arms and armor is pretty essential to help identiify and classify items which are not neatly categorized in the usual references.
It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense. Personally I find it one of most fascinating aspects of research, and I guess that evolved from the study of markings and inscriptions in sword blades over many years.
Actually, you helped me many times with numbers of those.

It is quite true that if a native warrior was sufficiently convinced of the apotropaic potential of the talismanically imbued armor (actually reptilian hide fashioned into a cuirass possibly European influenced in form)...the iron shield would be redundant.
However, even tradition bound to wear the armor which has been faithfully worn in the earlier years of these societies, it would not be surprising to see the use of the iron under shield pragmatically , given the more modern dynamics of firearms.

While it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc.
Getting into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation.

One analogy I would add however, was the case of an American Indian chief in Texas territory in 19th c. known as Chief Iron Shirt. He apparently wore either a cuirass remnant or perhaps mail from an earlier Spanish explorer, and the warriors believed he was magic and impervious to bullets, as they literally bounced off of him.
His luck ran out one day when a sharpshooter's round entered his body through an exposed spot from likely an upraised arm.

That said, whether the natives who wore these types of armor believed the assurances of metaphysics or took the pragmatic approach would be a matter of considerable speculation in qualifying, so my comment was perhaps too broadly noted.

The presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification.

Best
Jim

[fernando]

... It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense...
Another theme that is not one of my favorites :shrug:.

... it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc...
Distance is the business, Jim, distance. At close range, even the weakest of powders may boost a projectile strongly enough to penetrate in a mild wall. Remember that already in earlier centuries the smith had to shoot a test round at the cuirasses plate, to ensure its bullet resistence to customers.

... into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation...
I'd say it is within scope indeed, as the consistency of the iron plate in Panoleon's cuirass will help pondering on whether such is an operational item or a replica ... symbolic or theatrical.
... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

... presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification...
Why not assuming that, if the cross symbol was good enough to make African natives believe that this had magic powers like turning them imortal, why then also not assuming that European (Portuguese) natives originally carry such believe with them and so transferred it to their hosts ? This is rather a complex subject, which i confess to be without knowledge. One thing is to believe that a material testimony of faith will validate our doings, as in the name of God's, like with a credential to rest in peace when we die (heaven and all), the other is that we will not die when we carry them. A further hypothesis would contemplate that, in so many cases, the bearer enjoys a determined motif (or gadget) because it is different, coming from a different world. Don't we all ? less esoteric but praticable.
Have a nice weekend, Jim :cool:.


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[colin henshaw]

Jim McDougall]Hmmmm,
I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa, one that comes to mind is the 'Crocodile guild'. There are others known as 'Leopard hunters' etc. who used the scaly anteater (pangolin) hide, however they wore crocodile hide helmets, so the use of crocodile hide is quite possible, if not likely (as per Spring, op.cit. noting variations of materials used).

Jim's theory about Crocodile Secret Societies is certainly colourful and exotic, but given the likelihood the cuirass was put together in Europe, can probably be safely discounted (the rivets are particularly compelling).

As for diplomatic gifts, it has been my understanding that such items were notable quality examples representing the culture of the presenter, not imitations of those they are giving it to.

Far from it, gifts would often be cheap and showy. An example I have to hand is from the intrepid American lady explorer who travelled in East Africa in the late 19th century, May French-Sheldon ... extracts from her book attached. Another example ... Sir Joseph Banks had brass replica Maori clubs "patu" made in 1772 for distribution to important natives in New Zealand. Image attached. However, it should be noted that for the coronation of King Archibong III of Calabar in 1878 his regalia was provided by Queen Victoria, so presumably of good quality ? Image attached.

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

Crocodile hides for making luggage, shoes etc, along with other animal skins, have long been an export item from Africa to Europe.


Considering again my first post of this thread, above ... perhaps a third, less likely option should be added :-

Its simply an old hobbyist production using a Victorian copy breastplate - for hanging on the wall in some large house or for "dressing-up" (which was popular among the middle and upper classes in the 19th and early 20th century.

[Kubur]

I remind you gentlemen that all the stories above are grounded on nothing...

There is no proof that this armour is old nor African...

:shrug:



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[Gonzoadler]

Another theme that is not one of my favorites :shrug:.

... Reason why i have asked him to tell us the weight of his example, to which he will hopefully answer.

.

Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.

[fernando]

... I remind you gentlemen that all the stories above are grounded on nothing...
There is no proof that this armour is old nor African...
No one wants to prove anything, Kubur. If you assume that your grounds have more solidity, no problem with that !

[fernando]

Panoleon already answered to this question in this thread. The weight is 2.2kg. I think that is too light for a bulletproof cuirass but enough to protect against many edged weapons.
My bad; did not pay enough attention to that.
Yes, a weight much distant to what you can call a reinforced cuirass. This way the odds split between either the 'blade proof' real thing or a decorative replica, as approached by Colin.

[drac2k]

Gonzoadler makes an excellent point that while this might not serve as protection from a bullet, this certainly would prove effective in deflecting a sword blade in the late 18th or early 19th Century which would have still been the prevalent mode of combat at that time.
To many in the forum, the mix of a European-style breastplate with rivets, and the embellished with a crocodile hide poses a problem, however to me it makes perfect sense. Throughout Africa's history, European Nations had a presence there as they were vying for Colonies for trade and to offset the power of other countries.
A present of a metal cuirass in the 1880s or 1890s to an important African person would have been highly prized. These were readily available and no longer meant to serve as protection, but more for pomp and ceremony in the West; An example that readily comes to mind is the cuirass that is still used by the English Household Cavalry Life Guards to this day. It is plausible to me that this valuable item would then be Africanized. The possibility of the rosettes in the form of the cross doesn't bother me either as there are religious battles still being engaged in that country to this day; if a Cross could protect a Crusader, why not a Chieftan or as Jim commented, it could merely be talismanic and have nothing to do with Christianity.
It has been noted that there isn't a museum number on this piece, which is valid, however in the past when I acquired several pieces formerly from a Movie Studio, they were clearly marked "Property of RKO Studio; "since this piece isn't so marked, I think that this argument is a draw, neither proving nor disproving the pieces origin.
It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows.

[Kubur]

No one wants to prove anything, Kubur. If you assume that your grounds have more solidity, no problem with that !

Not at all, this is not something really documented, I can't say more... and the fantasy thing seems to be a general consensus.

[fernando]

... It has also been stated that this item has been glued to the cuirass, which makes sense to me as glues have been known for centuries such as the ones used by the Mongolians and the Ottomans on their compound bows...
Not that this is a vital factor but, no glue was used to fix the hide to the chest piece, but rivets; apparently the male/female style as used in Europe (#11), which does not mean they couldn't be acquired in Africa. If i am correct, the glue possibility was mentioned to have possibly used to fill those two "missing something" holes, but Panoleon soon described the material as "some sort of molten metal. Probably lead" (#16#).
I see the point in Europeans gifting light weight cuirasses to local leaders in the late nineties but, by own historical influence, i only tended to think of gifts given (and swaped) during a much earlier period (Congo, Dahome), when heavy weight cuirasses (and swords) were of contemporary use.

[Jim McDougall]

As always, great points and observations, and a wonderfully lively discussion which I am enjoying very much.
It is true, this concerns hypotheticals, which is the texture of a discussion seeking evidence, possibilities and plausibility in lieu of provenance and documentation.
The term 'fantasy' is perhaps not best applied for an item not yet resolved as to its disposition in use, ceremonial, ritual, traditional etc. Regalia, especially in many African contexts, may be regarded as fanciful, but temporally significant to native peoples.

I still hold to my idea that this is a refurbished regalia cuirass (of hide) being used traditionally in one of West Africa's secret society groups, most likely the crocodile oriented one but could be other. Its being quite old, and coupled with an iron backing could be for many reasons, but durability seems most pragmatic.
The apotropaic properties are something we cannot address with certainty, but we know the folk reliions in West Africa deeply believed in such things.

[fernando]

Panoleon, can you tell us from what part of the world you got your cuirass from ?

[colin henshaw]

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

[Panoleon]

Good sugestion Colin, I'll try a movy prop forum.
I bought the cuirass in the Netherlands. It didn't came from a collection.

[Jim McDougall]

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?


Thats a great idea Colin! if nothing else to remove this persistent element from the equation. There were I understand numerous firms which produced costume elements for movie studios, the sets and larger items were quite another story.
In California, a rather curious tangent of archaeology has evolved with one foremost recollection, that of finding the remains of architecture of ancient Rome and greece from DeVille's lavish movie productions buried in the desert.

The only way I can imagine this 'armor' item ending up in the Netherlands would be from the incredibly huge volume of materials from West African and Congo regions ending up in Belgium. Some of the best references on African arms are from authors there.

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further into the 'cult' , secret society and other such organizations in Africa, it seems such traditions are well steeped into antiquity.
Apparently in Egypt, in about 3rd century AD, there were indeed cults centered around the crocodile, which was revered as sacred and divine, and much feared.
In this time, Roman soldiers occupied Egypt, and in about 1840s, certain exploration around the regions of Manfalut, on the banks of the Nile (250 mi. south of Cairo) discovered a 'cuirass' and helmet of crocodile hide which was found among mummified remains, including of crocodiles.

These pieces are displayed and identified in the British Museum, and have been radiocarbon dated too 3rd c. AD.In the description it notes, 'in many parts of Africa the crocodile is seen as a fearsome and invincible creature ' and that warriors wearing these things might be transformed in some magical way, and take on the formidable attributes of the animal.

While it seems chronologically improbable that practices and traditions such as this would remain in situ in modern tribal societies, it should be noted that numerous examples of such atavism is well represented in Africa.

The plate of illustrations of weapons (British museum) of Egypt shows the remarkable character of modern African arms (19th-20th c) compared to examples of ancient Egypt. It is known that many tribal peoples in the Sahelian and sub Saharan regions had come from very early migrations from Nilotic areas. It seems reasonable that many of these traditions and weapon forms may have diffused along with them.

The profound reverence, and fear, toward the crocodile remains in the Sudan as well, and in conversations with a man of Fur descent (Darfur) I was told that the placement of crocodile hide on the sword was quite totemic.
The kaskara (pics attached) fully clad in crocodile seems excessive in the more common applications, while the Mahdist weapons often had considerable coverage.
However, in certain respects, perhaps in these cult type regalia, this kind of dramatic application may have served well.

The African weapons shown are a Songye axe , Azande sickle saber, and trumbash , all from Congo regions.

[Jim McDougall]

Although we are discussing a cuirass from Africa, I wanted to add, at least anecdotally, a similar kind of case from here in Texas.

In the 1870s, armor and a helmet were in the Pecos desert in Texas, near the Rio Grande river by an army doctor, who said they still encased the bones of the wearer. Years later he gave these (less the bones) to anthropologist and army captain John G. Bourke (c. 1890s) . It had been presumed these items had been worn by a 16th century Spanish explorer.

In time, the front and back plate cuirass had been lost, and what remained was the 'mantle' (over shoulders) and a very strange helmet. When these items came into possession of University of Nebraska, research done revealed that Spanish explorers used no such armor, only some mail, and leather armor (curera). The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

The 'mantle' was comprised of small iron scales, attached to a cotton backing, much in imitation of 'cataphract' (=scaled) armor, and examination revealed these to be of 'bloomery' type process iron, a very old process of smelting far predating the 19th c. methods.

Basically, the 'armor' was of old components, but seemingly amalgamated with material not congruent. The suggestion was that these items might have been from an opera company or fraternal group, but no such groups existed n these regions in those times.

Naturally, those times were wrought with lore and tall tales, and my question is, why would one of these mantles have been worn over a breast and back plate? Over mail I could see, but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

[colin henshaw]

Getting closer !

[Kubur]

As Kirk could have said "nearly there"...
:)

[Richard G]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Who would have thought it difficult to distinguish between a tribal african artifact and a movie prop?
Anyway, on a purely speculative basis, is it possible to develop one of Colin's possibilities, i.e. that it is a diplomatic gift.
Is it possible this was made in an Islamic or non-tribal African arsenal for trade with, or a gift to, the more southern tribes. I am thinking of somewhere like Khartoum\Omdurman, Bornu, Djibouti etc, which probably would have had access to European trade metalware they could incorporate.
All trade and travel in 19th Cent Africa required immense amounts of 'hongo' or bribe and this looks as if it could fit the bill.
I realise the question of why we haven't seen one before arises.
The Zanzibar nimcha is familiar to us all, but at the risk of exposing my ignorance, do we know where they were actually made? My point is there must have been manufacturing centres that we are not aware of as well as the few we do.
Regards
Richard

[fernando]

It looks as if the only depiction available of a crocodile attire is the one in exhibition at the British museum. Something worth to note is how they categorize the implement, first as a suit and, after in the text, as an " imposing armour comprising helmet and cuirass ". This is notoriously a figure of speech, as this most interesting apparatus is no armour, starting by having its opening on the center chest side. More plausible would be a priest, or equivalent, wearing this outfit in a cult cerimony; potentially acceptable that this attitude is is based on the same principle as religion; fear. I would rather use this plain term than Jim's apotropaism, for reasons connected with the vastitude of the late; thinking of Brazil, then Europe. Going deep into it, scholars even find it in (European) songs.
To say that, if crocodiles were inoffensive, they would hardly have a ranking place in local ritual stages. Whether Romans took the device with them back home, assuming that it would serve for cult rather than for trophy purposes, is for one's consideration; that not for illuminated historians.
All in all, pretending that the comparison in effect of this attire with that of the Panoleon cuirass, might well be subject to a serious judgement.
So, in my humble perspective, we may have not reached one only step towards finding what Panoleon's implement is about.

[colin henshaw]

It looks as if the only depiction available of a crocodile attire is the one in exhibition at the British museum. Something worth to note is how they categorize the implement, first as a suit and, after in the text, as an " imposing armour comprising helmet and cuirass ". This is notoriously a figure of speech, as this most interesting apparatus is no armour, starting by having its opening on the center chest side. More plausible would be a priest, or equivalent, wearing this outfit in a cult cerimony; potentially acceptable that this attitude is is based on the same principle as religion; fear. I would rather use this plain term than Jim's apotropaism, for reasons connected with the vastitude of the late; thinking of Brazil, then Europe. Going deep into it, scholars even find it in (European) songs.
To say that, if crocodiles were inoffensive, they would hardly have a ranking place in local ritual stages. Whether Romans took the device with them back home, assuming that it would serve for cult rather than for trophy purposes, is for one's consideration; that not for illuminated historians.
All in all, pretending that the comparison in effect of this attire with that of the Panoleon cuirass, might well be subject to a serious judgement.
So, in my humble perspective, we may have not reached one only step towards finding what Panoleon's implement is about.

This thread is certainly proving popular ! The crocodile "armour" from Nubia is
for sure an impressive and well-known object. I have looked closely at it in the BM a number of times. Likely it is connected with the Ancient Egyptian crocodile god "Sobek" and the cult surrounding him...

However, it is not to be dismissed in this context as it may have a connection with Panoleon's cuirass ... in that it could well have provided the impetus for the design of a prop (whether for a movie or theatre production). Likewise it no doubt would be a source of inspiration for a hobbyist in the past who wanted to make a striking item either for display or "dressing up".

[Jim McDougall]

I've been reading this thread with interest. Who would have thought it difficult to distinguish between a tribal african artifact and a movie prop?
Anyway, on a purely speculative basis, is it possible to develop one of Colin's possibilities, i.e. that it is a diplomatic gift.
Is it possible this was made in an Islamic or non-tribal African arsenal for trade with, or a gift to, the more southern tribes. I am thinking of somewhere like Khartoum\Omdurman, Bornu, Djibouti etc, which probably would have had access to European trade metalware they could incorporate.
All trade and travel in 19th Cent Africa required immense amounts of 'hongo' or bribe and this looks as if it could fit the bill.
I realise the question of why we haven't seen one before arises.
The Zanzibar nimcha is familiar to us all, but at the risk of exposing my ignorance, do we know where they were actually made? My point is there must have been manufacturing centres that we are not aware of as well as the few we do.
Regards
Richard

'm with you Richard! The 'movie prop' angle is definitely a new one for these pages, perhaps the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms have worn thin :)
Your note on the bargaining items (bribes etc.) typically key in trade is well placed, and certainly the vast diffusion of arms and material culture, along with influences were carried along the equally vast trade networks of the continent.

I do appreciate the humor in the previous posts, which well illustrate the levity of the movie prop probability, though at the risk of deriding the potential tribal importance of this cuirass/armor/hide vest or whatever correctness deems the proper description.

My curiosity has compelled me to continue research into the potential instances of this interesting combination of crocodile hide and metal, and to be honest, I was looking into the possibility of Sudan much as you have suggested. In my previous post, and from research some years ago, it is well known that crocodile hide was often used on weaponry there, in various degree and application. As I had noted, apparently there was a keen intent of the imbuement of power, in a totemic sense as had been told.

In reading the literature concerning swords of Sudan, there was a mention of 'crocodile cults' (I think it was either Briggs, '65 or Reed '87) and I thought possible connection to the heavily crocodile clad kaskara I had. There was scant information on this topic back then, so I did not pursue it further.

As you have noted, there was considerable presence of metal, materials and machinery present at Khartoum, assembled by Gordon, and captured by the Mahdi in 1885. All of this became stockpiled and liberally used by the Caliph at Omdurman, and remained along with continued materials during the Anglo-Egyptian Condominium in the years following the fall (1898).

While the use of these scrap metals etc. was considerable, the use of armor, particularly the mail armor well known previously in Sudan, had waned, though its use had prevailed in trade points to the west through Chad, Bornu and Nigeria. With armor in these regions, it was mail which was favored, but not the 'full metal jacket', with hide cover.

Returning to the West African scene, I looked again toward the 'cults' , in which the most prevalent and notable was that of the "Leopard Society', which seems to have had a history of tribal tradition going back many years. However by the 19th century into early 20th, these warrior groups had become rather nefarious cults, and with apparently diverse ajendas and character.

The 'Leopard men' were one of the most notorious and criminal, and were situated in regions from Liberia and Sierra Leone into other tribal areas.
For the 'movie buffs' here, they became the topic of one of the Tarzan movies ('Tarzan and the Leopard Men' ,1935). The sensational adventure writing of the previous years gave of course much material for these themes.

In these 'societies' (which were more cults ), the members believed (contrived) to become possessed by the carnivorous animals they revered, and they committed heinous crimes while 'under the spell'.
With the 'leopard men' , they dressed as leopards using various covers of either actual hide or material simulating the animal, and designed steel claws (much like the Indian bagh nakh).

These 'shape shifting' totemic identies also included crocodiles, but the 'costuming ' in those cases remain unclear. While there are depictions of the leopard men, I am not aware of similar of 'crocodile men'. However, it would be naive, given the evidence of leopard costumes, to presume nobody devised a crocodile counterpart. Obviously the earlier crocodile vests, cuirass, armor were known and probably still around.

[fernando]

... Returning to the West African scene, I looked again toward the 'cults' , in which the most prevalent and notable was that of the "Leopard Society', which seems to have had a history of tribal tradition going back many years. However by the 19th century into early 20th, these warrior groups had become rather nefarious cults, and with apparently diverse ajendas and character.
In these 'societies' (which were more cults ), the members believed (contrived) to become possessed by the carnivorous animals they revered, and they committed heinous crimes while 'under the spell'.
With the 'leopard men' , they dressed as leopards using various covers of either actual hide or material simulating the animal, and designed steel claws (much like the Indian bagh nakh). ... These 'shape shifting' totemic identies also included crocodiles, but the 'costuming ' in those cases remain unclear. While there are depictions of the leopard men, I am not aware of similar of 'crocodile men'...
Dear Jim, i followed your perspective and am now coming from the reading of a blog well detailed on the moves of these leopard men beasts; simply horrifying.
Concerning the (apparent) non existence of other wild animals 'vests', the blogger argues that:

In fact, in the underworld of African cults and sects, there were Cults devoted to Baboons and Crocodiles that acted like their totemic animals, imitating their behavior and killing as they acted in the wild. The leopard, however, was the largest and most feared of the Cults for being considered a strong animal and responsible for guiding the dead in the other world.

This could be an explanation. Yet we still see a 'missing link' between putting on an animal hide and building a metal chest cuirass covered with a portion of skin.

[Will M]

This could be a prop from many years ago. I would like to mention that the aged reproductions you can find for sale online that are expensive will fool even some of the most knowledgeable collectors. This is just an example of how aged reproductions can appear: https://www.warhats.com/u-boat-caps.html#/

[Richard G]

This is not all that helpful, but seems to suggest crocodile skin armours at least existed.
Regards
Richard
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/484770347390098508/

[kronckew]

...
The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

..., but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

Roman Coolus helmet ~200BC: :D Baseball cap 'Visor' is a protective neck piece. Also google 'secret helmets' worn under cloth hats. I've seen one with a circular top bit removed some place before.

[Will M]

It is an impressive looking piece. If used in actual combat, any opponent seeing it would believe it was just leather armour and would have been surprised when his sword or dagger failed to penetrate.

[Jim McDougall]

Dear Jim, i followed your perspective and am now coming from the reading of a blog well detailed on the moves of these leopard men beasts; simply horrifying.
Concerning the (apparent) non existence of other wild animals 'vests', the blogger argues that:

In fact, in the underworld of African cults and sects, there were Cults devoted to Baboons and Crocodiles that acted like their totemic animals, imitating their behavior and killing as they acted in the wild. The leopard, however, was the largest and most feared of the Cults for being considered a strong animal and responsible for guiding the dead in the other world.

This could be an explanation. Yet we still see a 'missing link' between putting on an animal hide and building a metal chest cuirass covered with a portion of skin.


Thank you Fernando. In mentioning these groups, I wanted to spare any elaboration on their nefarious activities, but note that these warrior fraternities of many years earlier were apparently 'reactivated' in a more cult type character. We know the earlier members were warriors who did wear animal hides etc. as we have seen with the pangolin armor of Benin for example.
As has been previously noted, the guage of the steel used may not have been intended in the 'armor' sense as a physical defense, but as a medium to adequately support an older and less durable piece still important as totemic regalia.

Wayne, 'bonk'!!! I completely missed the steel helmets worn under hats, and I had never seen those Roman things......here I will note armor is a very unfamiliar field for me so I am way in the learning curve....so thank you!

Will and Richard, thank you for the input! every item of data and idea holds more material for the possible resolution of these kinds of dilemma. I know Im learning a lot from the research Im doing and the observations of everyone here. I like the teamwork here!!!

[fernando]

For quite a while i wonder whether the large skin cracks on Panoleon example already existed before it was riveted to the iron piece or it simply kept drying on its new host and its splitting went on taking place through time.
Any suggestions, Gentlemen ?

[fernando]

This is not all that helpful, but seems to suggest crocodile skin armours at least existed.
Regards
Richard
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/484770347390098508/
Good shot, Richard,
That gives an impulse to look at these things with 'wider' eyes.
One that i would never buy as being the real stuff turned to be one made with the bony scales called 'scutes', situated in the crocodile postoccipital area.

.

[colin henshaw]

For quite a while i wonder whether the large skin cracks on Panoleon example already existed before it was riveted to the iron piece or it simply kept drying on its new host and its splitting went on taking place through time.
Any suggestions, Gentlemen ?

Most likely just due to drying out over a long period of time as the skin could not shrink naturally due to being riveted to a metal plate.

[LJ]

This is just a shot in the dark, but how about India as a place of origin (the skin could be from a Gavial) ? I haven't seen any other examples of gavial-covered armour but just wanted to throw an idea into the mix.

[Panoleon]

A good suggestion. I have found this crocodile armour from Malaysia:

https://nl.pinterest.com/pin/473722454563242022/

[colin henshaw]

I can add a little more to the "prop" option (at the risk of upsetting Jim should any of the terms mentioned not meet with his approval :rolleyes: ) :-

a) As well as movie props , theatre props should considered.

b) Circus type shows and exhibitions in the late 19th century. At this time period there existed the shameful practice of importing natives by some circus showmen, prominent being P T Barnum and R A Cunningham ... the natives were to perform various lurid and ludicrous displays. Natives were imported from Africa, India, Polynesia and Australia and performances took place in North America and Europe. Of course, exotic and showy props were required in the performances and possibly the cuirass in question could fit the bill. Some images attached.

I won't delve further into this painful yet factual history, but anyone wishing to learn more should read "Professional Savages, Captive Lives and Western Spectacle" by Roslyn Poignant 2004.

Finally, in respect of the "diplomatic gifts" option, I attach an woodcut image of Omai on his return to Tahiti on Captain Cook's third voyage and wearing his gift of a suit of armour ...

[Jim McDougall]

Most likely just due to drying out over a long period of time as the skin could not shrink naturally due to being riveted to a metal plate.

Animal hides, skins, naturally dry out over time if not lubricated by some sort of oil or conditioner. Cracks will occur in 'dry' periods if conditioning or oiling is not done .

In the situation I described in an earlier post where I was involved with an old Spanish leather 'cuera', which turned out to be late 17th c.....the cuirass had been stored for decades, and had literally collapsed upon itself. It took nearly a year of conservation to replenish oils and establish the strength in the leather to hold its shape.

This may have been the reason for the placement of this iron liner on this crocodile armor, to add structure to a somewhat deteriorated old item. If the conditioning of the hide is not attended to, naturally it will shrink and probably pull away from the rivets as the material drys and cracks.
That is just my view of what may occur but my view is far from any authority in these kinds of forensics.

[Jim McDougall]

A good suggestion. I have found this crocodile armour from Malaysia:

https://nl.pinterest.com/pin/473722454563242022/

As LJ has noted in the previous post, there are clearly numerous cases of crocodile armor in other ethnographic cultures.
I had come across this armor from these regions which noted these crocodile vests (termed armor in the references even though with open front as in a vest) earlier as well, and it certainly offers more perspective.

Interestingly, these 'armor' vests of crocodile hide were made by the natives of island of Nias (in Indonesia) and termed 'baru oroba'. While the OLDER ones are made of crocodiile hide, as the population of crocodlles depleted, the natives began using metal (ZINC or IRON) acquired from the 'foreign' people, colonial traders and fashioned similar vests called 'oroba s'roli'.
which means 'iron vest'.

These armor were of course used as protection in warfare with the early ones, as well in degree with iron ones, but more modern, they became ceremonial items worn in traditional ceremonies and festivals .

It is interesting to see the similarities with the history of these particular examples of 'crocodile vest' in an entirely different cultural sphere, and their advent from warfare implement into traditional vestige used ceremonially.

[fernando]

How about it having shrunk before and after ... and parts of it that have meanwhile fallen off !


.

[Jim McDougall]

I can add a little more to the "prop" option (at the risk of upsetting Jim should any of the terms mentioned not meet with his approval :rolleyes: ) :-

a) As well as movie props , theatre props should considered.

b) Circus type shows and exhibitions in the late 19th century. At this time period there existed the shameful practice of importing natives by some circus showmen, prominent being P T Barnum and R A Cunningham ... the natives were to perform various lurid and ludicrous displays. Natives were imported from Africa, India, Polynesia and Australia and performances took place in North America and Europe. Of course, exotic and showy props were required in the performances and possibly the cuirass in question could fit the bill. Some images attached.

I won't delve further into this painful yet factual history, but anyone wishing to learn more should read "Professional Savages, Captive Lives and Western Spectacle" by Roslyn Poignant 2004.

Finally, in respect of the "diplomatic gifts" option, I attach an woodcut image of Omai on his return to Tahiti on Captain Cook's third voyage and wearing his gift of a suit of armour ...


Thanks Colin, and I do appreciate the tender attention to my perceived sensitivities on the use of terms. It seems as so often the use of a term or phrase used in entries is challenged (especially in my case) as being incorrect, inflated, inappropriate etc.... I was under the impression it was OK to add input in kind. It has never been my intention to annoy or rebuke anyone personally, but to add perspective where a misused term might misalign the situation at hand.
When my wife catches me in a mistake, I just tell her, I did it on purpose just so she wont think I'm perfect :)

I have truly enjoyed this discussion, and it has honestly been a learning experience, and this item is a true conundrum.

Considering myself a kind of 'devils advocate 'on this topic, I do not discount any possibility, but do feel strongly that this is an African item, and used in the context of the West African warrior groups, possibly continued in use in the society cults.

The reason I think it was fabricated in Africa is that the shape resembles the other hide armors used by warriors in these societies in West Africa, most notably the pangolin hide types. The strong colonial presence provided more than adequate supply of steel, rivets, etc. of European origin which could be used by native artisans to refurbish this as described.

In the unfortunate slave trade which took place in these regions, the primary commodities used as mediums of exchange were of course, guns and powder, as well as cowrie shells. Natives tend to excitedly respond to items and materials that are 'foreign' and unavailable to them if I have understood correctly. We see many images of native warriors proudly exhibiting weapons and dress of European origin.

Turning to the 'prop' angle here.
While considering 'movie props' naturally if we are looking at this area in a general sense, items of greater antiquity, of course 'theater (or opera) items would be included. As noted, in the latter 19th c. with the publics intrigue with the exotica of natives and peoples of faraway lands, there were staged performances much like the'Buffalo Bill'' kind which traveled all over.

Naturally, there was great demand for costuming, and one cannot discount that this item might have been fabricated for same......or perhaps, taken, as is, for use in these performances. Either way, I feel the crocodile armor is a genuinely used item which has been refurbished with iron......possibly in ceremonial use,.......then taken into the the theatrical fold.

[fernando]

Excelent poingts on the Nias war armour. Amazing in that, even having to resource European materials (zinc, tin) to keep building their armoured vests (crocodiles being extinguished), they kept to their rather genuine design, with those protuberant shoulder covers, as forming a protection while allowing the arms moves ... maybe also as a fashion approach. Also amazing that, using skilled techniques to sew the eleven parts of a hide to put on a vest, such parts highly hardened through a special process, they neglected its front, which was open and without a buttoning system; as if they found it more important to defend their back, where the larger section of the hide is applied; this of course being in reality explained by other reasons... like the front being protected by the shield ?


.

[fernando]

... Finally, in respect of the "diplomatic gifts" option, I attach an woodcut image of Omai on his return to Tahiti on Captain Cook's third voyage and wearing his gift of a suit of armour ...
And what an impressive list of gifts said to have 'escorted' such young British prótegé; port wine; gunpowder, muskets and bullets;, a hand organ, some tin soldiers; a globe of the world; crockery and kitchenware; a variety of fancy goods; animals, including a horse ... and a suit of armour.
This would make feel envious the common mortal ;) .

[colin henshaw]

And what an impressive list of gifts said to have 'escorted' such young British prótegé; port wine; gunpowder, muskets and bullets;, a hand organ, some tin soldiers; a globe of the world; crockery and kitchenware; a variety of fancy goods; animals, including a horse ... and a suit of armour.
This would make feel envious the common mortal ;) .

Yes, quite a bizarre and diverse assembly. Seemingly however, the list of gifts provided was criticised even at the time and some thought more benefical and practical items such as woodworking tools and similar would have been better. He died not so very long after his return to Tahiti. Omai's story is most interesting, there are books on the topic which well worth reading.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando, good observation on the open fronts of these 'vests', and I agree that the frontal area was probably considered protected by the shields, which from examples I have seen were rather elongated and vertical in most cases.
It is curious to imagine these kinds of armor defense and how the agility of the warrior might have been impaired. Without really knowing the warfare tactics and techniques of these tribes it is hard to say.

While not wishing to belabor the 'cult' probability of our discussion armor, I have continued researching that aspect, and wanted to share some findings and observations. I realize that this aspect of subject matter may be somewhat objectionable to many, so I try to keep details objective and somewhat redacted. Tribal practices in many of these regions in West Africa have never been a 'pretty picture' from western perceptions, and the activities of colonial incursion certainly were notably aggravating as well.

To the use of the iron cuirass mounting affiixed to the apparently much older crocodile hide, I had suggested earlier perhaps it was for added defense from bullets in the now advanced circumstances with firearms. The question was how effective would this iron be, as it seems the weight was quite light.

I wanted to add for comparison, the iron armor used by the Australian outlaw Ned Kelly, which was fashioned from plough molds and apparantly 'bush forged' (rather than by professional blacksmith). This meant that this was done in pieces with some parts heated and bent over green trunks, and riveted together. The iron was 1/4" thick.
It was cumbersome and heavy (97 lbs) and while it repelled bullets successfully, it did not prevent blunt force type injuries from the impacted metal.

This comparison (while Kelly's armor was of course more elaborate) would support that the iron addition to the crocodile hide in our discussion piece was not likely for bullet proofing.

Returning to the cult regalia concept, in earlier times, there were a number of 'societies' which were basically warrior groups and politico-social organizations. One of the most notorious were the 'leopard hunter group.
While much of the activity had focused on the superstitions and traditions of the folk religions and magic and metaphysical beliefs, by about the 1870s, more nefarious dynamics had perpetuated into off shoot groups, one of which was the 'Neegee' cult (neegee, Bassa word =crocdile) . The leopard hunters had devolved into the leopard men cult.
To the traditional societies, these cults were evil and feared.

The belief in magic was profound, and it was believed that certain persons were shape shifters who were able to change into certain formidable animals, such as the leopard and the crocodile. ...and that these persons would lie in wait in the wilds and mimick the character and killing style of the chosen animal in attacking their victims.

With the leopard cult the member would wear a leopard mask, drape themselves in leopard skins and use wicked claws fashioned of steel, even steel toothed mouthpieces.

While the apparel/ regalia of the leopard men is described, that of the apparently more secret and more despised crocodile group , I have not found such detail.

It would seem that these 'crocodile' men would also follow this pattern, but the crocodile hide itself would be cumbersome, even without the iron cladding, so would seem impractical for these nocturnal 'hunts.
It would seem more likely that perhaps this item may have been for a priest or official in less dynamic circumstances such as ritual or meetings.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, from your previous thread i give account that the one fresh approach is the Ned Kelly saga. May i suggest that his gang shielding apparatuses have by no means any linkage to the implement under discussion; not in form, nor in resistence, neither in means. We can't establish the minimum comparison bewteen a 1/4" thick (tempered) plough comonents and a thin bent sheet of soft iron, circa four times thinner.
I would end by saying that, while Ned's and his pack adventure has proven pathetic, Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation :shrug:.

Yours humbly :cool:

[Kubur]

Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation :shrug:.


Can we agree on the following points:

1/ Crocodile armours exist
2/ Crocodile armours exist all over the world and they are not specific to Africa
3/ Crocodile armour or cuirasses are made of animal skin and not reinforced with iron breast plates
4/ The construction techniques of Panoleon's item look European
5/ Panoleon's item is from the 20th c.




:cool:

[fernando]

In context, what misses an explanation is why, by whom and what this thing was made for.

[Kubur]

In context, what misses an explanation is why, by whom and what this thing was made for.

Correct, but these information's are subjective.

On one side, we have the objective information's, physical descriptions and facts.

On the other side, we can try to guess by whom and why, but to do this, we need elements of comparison in books and museums...

Without these data, any explanation will be a lovely story, but no more.

[fernando]

I gather that explanations are not subjective, but objective ;). Maybe no conclusion will ever come out, who knows. Until then, this has been fun; constructive+cultural discussions have been taking place, which is great :cool: .

[colin henshaw]

Another suggestion .... Panoleon could, if he wishes, send images and a description of the cuirass to the Ethnographic curators at say the British Museum and the Pitt-Rivers Museum, Oxford. I have done this successfully a few times when faced with hard to identify items. Their holdings and reference materials are enormous, so if anyone can at least say if the cuirass is a genuine African object or not, it is them. The curator at the BM is Christopher Spring, not sure who at the Pitt-Rivers... :)

[Jim McDougall]

Dear Jim, from your previous thread i give account that the one fresh approach is the Ned Kelly saga. May i suggest that his gang shielding apparatuses have by no means any linkage to the implement under discussion; not in form, nor in resistence, neither in means. We can't establish the minimum comparison bewteen a 1/4" thick (tempered) plough comonents and a thin bent sheet of soft iron, circa four times thinner.
I would end by saying that, while Ned's and his pack adventure has proven pathetic, Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation :shrug:.

Yours humbly :cool:

Of course it remains unexplained, and as you have apparently agreed with the point I was making by using this comparison (also regarded as an analogy, which means it is NOT directly related to the item or subject being examined).
My intent was to actually dismantle my own previous suggestion that perhaps this liner of iron was for bullet proofing, by showing that iron plate adequate for protection was probably much heavier (as this comparison illustrates).

So as you note this 'comparison' does not serve as an explanation, but is objectively disqualifying toward a subjective suggestion I had previously made, thus eliminated from the ongoing discussion. I very much agree, this discussion as been fun, and very informative....I know Im learning a lot.
As Kubur has well noted, comparisons are essential, and Colin's suggestion of Pitt Rivers is well placed.

[fernando]

Well Jim, i wouldn't be surprised if Napoleon's item turns out to be one of a kind, thus incomparable. OTOH, i would certainly subscribe Colin's suggestion. It sure is a good test; Panoleon willing to do it :cool: .

[fernando]

Panoleon, may i appologize for diverting but Jim, you are a Texas wanderer. Have you ever been in Waco, in a visit to the Texas Rangers museum ?
You sure remember the American (Ned Kelly) bullet proof 'home version' ;). Also a failure ... also a dramatic one :shrug: .


.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando,
Yup, Ive been there OK, and had forgotten this anomaly.
In further thinking, one of the tangible theories which has been mentioned here, but gained no further traction, is Colin's suggestion that perhaps this was an old armor put onto an iron display setup.

Without further evidence of such apparatus (a good descriptive word Fernando)being actually worn, this seems a viable theory which is tenable as a reasonable explanation.

In museums I have seen excavated swords and relics which were displayed mounted on clear plastic casing to fill in for the missing elements.

[fernando]

... In further thinking, one of the tangible theories which has been mentioned here, but gained no further traction, is Colin's suggestion that perhaps this was an old armor put onto an iron display setup...
Making me remember #10:
... Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?...

[Jim McDougall]

Making me remember #10:
Well that was my fox paws!!! Sorry Fernando, my bad...........
As noted, it was a good suggestion.

[fernando]

As indeed, very small in height, as per given measures; a 'suspicious' neck opening shape, as too squarish; and no visible marks of having had a means to hold it over shoulders and sides.