Curious marriage: a Kard

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I got this dagger recently which I would refer as a Kard.
Maybe it was made in the early 20th or late 19th century.
I want to ask you if anyone has seen something similar before?
Where this dagger could been made?

The silver scabbard has typical caucasian decoration elements, but a central asian origin seems to me possible, too.
Which daggers have normally such a scabbard? Has anyone an example?
I think of Kards from Bukhara but that could be wrong.

The blade is from a shortened european or russian sabre and was blued before the remounting.
The stack hilt has the shape of a man with a hat which reminds me of a caucasian papakha. It is decorated with glass stones.
There are also iron mountings with gold Koftgari. The decor looks caucasian, too.

Length overall: 40cm
Without scabbard: 37cm
Blade: 26cm

Comments are welcome :)

[Gonzoadler]

More pictures:

[Gonzoadler]

And some from the scabbard.
That's it.

[David R]

The blade and scabbard are very nice, but the hilt is probably a walking stick handle.

[mahratt]

This is Central Asia. End of the 19th century. By this time, Central Asia was annexed to the Russian Empire. Many people who lived in the Russian Empire moved to Central Asia. Including master jewelers from the Caucasus. In Bukhara and other cities, these master jewelers from the Caucasus began to make silver sheaths in the Caucasian style for the traditional knives of Central Asia: kard, bichaq and pesh-kabz.

Judging by the shape of the scabbard, they were made for the bichaq.

[Lee]

Take a look at this old thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20828) as the bolster and a blade possibly recycled from previous mounts bring this type to mind.

[Gonzoadler]

Thanks for your helpful comments. There are a lot of similar but not equal pieces from Central Asia, so I was'nt completely sure about that origin.
That the scabbard was made for a Bichaq could be more likely than for a Kard, but the examples from the old thread looking really plausible, too.

I think it is possible that the handle was made for a walking stick, don't know if such sticks were common in that region.

It would be great if anyone can show pieces which are partly similar.

Regards

[ariel]

Either my eyes betray me, or there is something strange with the blade.
It has a blunt ricasso, so it could not have been shortened from that end.
But the fuller is very short and does not seem to run into the point, so even that end is original. Either it was indeed a saber blade ( Western, not Oriental), with a very short fuller ( in which case colleagues from the European section might be of help), or a bayonet(???).
You are correct, the chasing motifs are Caucasian, and the niello seems to point that way, but the end of the scabbard is tilted up ( Turkish?).

If the handle is from a walking stick, that would hint at other " foreign" parts.

I cannot find any traces of anything Central Asian.

[Rich]

Interesting piece. Put a cross guard on the blade and it becomes an European hunting knife.
Rich

[mahratt]

A few more knives from Central Asia in a similar scabard^

[Kubur]

Plus the iron mountings with gold Koftgari, Central Asian and /or Persian?

[mahratt]

Plus the iron mountings with gold Koftgari, Central Asian and /or Persian?

Persian for me...

[mariusgmioc]

A few more knives from Central Asia in a similar scabard^

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo. :shrug:

Anyhow, this is a true "chimera" to me.

The scabbard looks Caucasian... I guess...
the blade looks European... I guess again...
and the hilt looks... I am out of guesses... :shrug:

[Interested Party]

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo. :shrug:

Anyhow, this is a true "chimera" to me.

The scabbard looks Caucasian... I guess...
the blade looks European... I guess again...
and the hilt looks... I am out of guesses... :shrug:

The blade and the overall look remind me of Scandinavian patterns. I don't believe it is, the blade maybe, but the look is there.....I think it is the contour of the sheath, the line of the handle to the blade, but not the materials that make the sheath and handle. The bolster vs the Scandinavian ferule. I see the niello and the onion blossom at the tip for Caucasian influence.
I would love to know this piece's story. A chimera.

Gonzoalder you always find interesting pieces.

[mahratt]

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo. :shrug:


Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives :)

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

[Interested Party]

Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives :)

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

[mahratt]

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

These were large cities that were capitals of khanates: Bukhara and Khiva. Although it is possible that individual masters could work in such a technique in other smaller cities as well.

[ariel]

There were famous Bakhmud and Abdalla Tubchiev brothers who went to Central Asian khanates ( Bukhara, I vaguely remember) at the end of 19 century. They worked there as jewelers. In Central Asia they learned enameling techniques and brought it back to the Caucasus. In exchange they taught the locals Caucasian silverwork and niello.
They also worked for several years in Istanbul.
Both died when the Caucasus became “ Soviet” and all those years they made enameled scabbards and handles for the local and “ Moscow” bonzas. Thus, this kindjal is very, very highly likely can be dated to the beginning of the 20th century or even later.

It is almost always the itinerant masters who introduce new techniques, decoration motives, materials etc.

Just like Persian bladesmiths at the Moghul court who taught their Indian colleagues how to forge fancy wootz patterns instead of the customary “salt and pepper” one.

[ariel]

I have a strange feeling about it.
The face is peculiar, Central Asia was and still is Islamic. Even drawings of human faces are frown upon, but this is a 3-dimensional sculpture. Usually ( Hungarian, Philippine, Mughal etc) face is turned toward the edge. Here it faces the spine. There is a rivet through golden koft decorations.
And why on Earth would anybody put a fragment of European regulation blade into a Caucasian / Turkish kard scabbard?

I usually try to find positive things to say. Here I find one strange feature after another.

Could it be a composition of unrelated parts?

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,
I think it is a regional work. Central Asia sounds likely to me, as some members confirmed. But that is a debatable point, because it looks like a marriage/composition. I'm agree with that, ariel. But all parts except the blade are of a central asian or maybe caucasian origin (in my opinion) and I don't think it was made in the western world. Daggers from Central Asia were shown, which are made of recycled parts, too. This and some Bichaks with similar scabbards are arguments for this region.
What is your guess were and why it was made?
In every case it wasn't made recently to deceive anyone. The seller was no collector and the price was (very) moderate ;)

Regards
Robin

[ariel]

It depends on your definition of “ deceive”.
Somebody might have made ( or ordered) it for private use as a hunting knife .
Then it went from hands to hands and the original story was forgotten.
Advertising this knife as Central Asian to get more money would be a deceit.
Selling it as a curiosity or relying on the description by the previous “deceiver” would be just ignorance.
There is nothing Central Asian here. Showing examples of other daggers of unknown provenance does not help: this is a usable knife composed of unrelated parts by somebody who was just attributionally ignorant or just didn’ t give a dam ( sic!) about authenticity. Walking stick handle is a good possibility, especially with cheap round glass “stones” on the top.
But, in the immortal words of “ Forged in Fire” , “ It will ke-e- ell” :-)

[mahratt]

I agree with ariel. My opinion is that the item is assembled from three parts (quite possibly a long time ago). The scabbard is undoubtedly made in Central Asia. The hilt and blade have nothing to do with Central Asia. I think аriel is right in suggesting that the handle could be part of the cane.
It would be ideal to match this very good sheath with an old Central Asian pichak knife.

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I'm also largely agree with your comments. Of course we can't clarify every detail of the history of my dagger but ariel constructed a plausible version. The hilt looks still caucasian to me because of the papakha.
Yes, the scabbard would be a very good replacement part for a central asian Bichak, but I dont have any :o

[Saracen]

For me, this is an absolutely Ottoman scabbard made by a master from Dagestan. After the annexation of the territories of the North Caucasus to the Russian Empire in 1865 and before the start of the First World War, the Islamic population of the North Caucasus actively migrated to the Ottoman Empire. This migration was much more massive and prolonged than the migration to Central Asia and received the name "Caucasian muhajirism".
The narrow form of the scabbard and, especially, the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard tell me that the Ottoman bichaq lived in them, and not the Central Asian pchak.

[Saracen]

... or Ottoman Kard

[ariel]

Agree.
It raises yet another digression. South Georgia and Northern Anatolia had a signigicant number of islamized Georgians ( besides Lazes), the so -called Meskheti Turks. In 1944 more than 100,000 of them were expelled to Central Asia to prevent their potential (!) espionage, collaboration with the Turks and other anti-Soviet activities. In general, the usual Soviet paranoia about “disloyal nations”. Likely there were a few jewelers among them:-). In that case the scabbard could date from 1950s or even later.

That might be the reason why Kwiatek found translation strangely “Caucasian”.

I wonder whether the origins of the peculiar throat of the scabbard might be found in the construction of local knives. Otherwise, I have difficulty to imagine how the entire thing functioned: there must have been an uncovered upper part of the edge. 50:50 chance that every time the owner tried to pull the kard/bichak ( ?) out he needed a Band-Aid:-)

[mahratt]

It would be interesting to see a Ottoman knife in a scabbard of the same decor. Unfortunately, I am not aware of such samples. But, probably, Ariel and Saracen will demonstrate such items.

In the 1940s, in the republics of Soviet Central Asia did not make knives in silver sheaths. The tradition of making elements of national knives in Central Asia from silver ended at the end of the 1920s.

Of course the inscription is "strangely Caucasian". As I wrote earlier, similar scabbards in Central Asia were made by masters who moved from the Caucasus to Bukhara and Khiva.

I don't understand why these fantasies about the Meskhetian Turks are needed? Information that Caucasian jewelers worked in the late 19th - early 20th centuries in the khanates of Central Asia is in scientific sources. Information about the mythical "jewelers of the Meskhetian Turks" - Mr. Ariel's fantasies, which are not confirmed by any facts.

[Saracen]

I wonder whether the origins of the peculiar throat of the scabbard might be found in the construction of local knives.

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

[mahratt]

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

It is not clear why post a photo of this Ottoman knife in the subject. His scabbard has no resemblance to the scabbard of the item in question ...

[Kubur]

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

I understand very well what Saracen has in mind.

Saracen, the throat is called the locket and it is common in most of scabbards in the world.

These two Indian karuds have the same system and a curved tip/chape.

Problem, they are not Ottoman daggers!
;)

[ariel]

I would like to stress again that Saracen, IMXO, hit the nail on the head: the tip of Gonzoadler’s scabbard is purely Turkish. The so-called “ Meskhetian Turks” call themselves simply Turks. They acquired an addition. ” Meskheonly after they were deported ( second time!) from Uzbekistan to asouthern Russia in 1989; they were never allowed to return to their homes in Samtskhe-Javakheti that was shared between Georgia ( in fact Russia) and Turkey. Let’s not forget that the area in question was a major center for cold weapon production and decoratinos: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki. BTW, legendary ( at least in Russia)mineral water Borjomi is from the same area, as was a creator of Georgian national epic poem “The knight in the tiger skin” Shota Rustaveli ( from Rustavi, ancient center of forging iron objects).
It would be difficult to imagine that there were no locals bladesmiths and jewelers among the 100,000+ Turks exiled to Central Asia in 944.Some sources mention that the greatest Georgian swordmaker Geurk Elizarov came to Tiflis from Akhatsikhe.
Nobody argues that there were Georgian itinerant masters in Central Asia at nthe end of 19th century, and had Mahratt been a bit more attentive to what was actually written by me, he would have understood that I was only raising a possibility of dating the scabbard in question to the second half of the 20th century, no more. The origin of the assertion that the Central Asian use of silver stopped in the 1920s is akin to the one that the use of brass was started by the Afghanis in 1900.Georgian masters were and still are using silver for their souvenir shashkas and kindjals non stop till now.
I was intrigued by the pics of Central Asian daggers on the wall carpet, especially by the rightmost one having the same throat. Any verifiable dating of them?

[mahratt]

There are a lot of letters and little meaning... Why invent mythical Meskhetian Turks who allegedly made a sheath of silver in the USSR in the second half of the 20th century? Probably Ariel left the USSR so long ago that he forgot about the strict regulations on working with precious metals in the USSR. Officially, only state organizations were allowed to work with silver and gold. At the same time, precious metals were necessarily marked with a state test. It is even more strange to imagine that in the second half of the 20th century in the USSR, even in Central Asia, someone will carry knives. This was prohibited. Undoubtedly, people continued to make national knives in Central Asia. But they were different from the old forms of knives and were certainly made without the use of silver.
The version about Meskhetian Turks, proposed by Mr. Ariel, reminded me of another equally fantastic version that he betrayed - about the Khyber knives, which were allegedly made in Russia and marked with Russian brands.

[Ren Ren]

Dear Colleagues! As far as English is not my native language, I would like to clarify in what cases the term "Throat" is used and in what cases is "Locket"?

[Ian]

Dear Colleagues! As far as English is not my native language, I would like to clarify in what cases the term "Throat" is used and in what cases is "Locket"?Ren Ren, the terms are used sometimes interchangeably. However, I think of a "locket" as being a metal piece fitted around the "throat" of the scabbard.

[Ren Ren]

Thank you very much, Ian!

[Saracen]

I understand very well what Saracen has in mind.

Saracen, the throat is called the locket and it is common in most of scabbards in the world.

These two Indian karuds have the same system and a curved tip/chape.

Problem, they are not Ottoman daggers!
;)

Thank you Kubur, correct English terminology is very important for me now.
But I'm talking specifically about the all-metal Ottoman scabbard and not about any others.
A removable locket in an all-metal Ottoman scabbard is needed in order to insert wooden inserts into them, which hold the blade inside.
On the discussed scabbard, the locket is made separately in the same Ottoman tradition, I think this also confirms their Ottoman origin.
Only here the Lak master had a problem: for the Lak style engraving , thick silver was needed and the locket had to be fastened butt-to-butt, not overlap.
I have not seen the removable locket on the all-metal scabbard of the Central Asian pchak. In addition, the scabbard of the Central Asian pchak is much wider and more massive.
The scabbard in question is narrow and elegant, in Ottoman style. Definitely this is an Ottoman scabbard.

[Saracen]

For comparison with the discussed scabbard: Ottoman kard

[mahratt]

For comparison with the discussed scabbard: Ottoman kard

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

[mahratt]

I have not seen the removable locket on the all-metal scabbard of the Central Asian pchak. In addition, the scabbard of the Central Asian pchak is much wider and more massive.
The scabbard in question is narrow and elegant, in Ottoman style. Definitely this is an Ottoman scabbard.

The scabbard that you demonstrate in the topic belongs to the pchak knives that were made in the USSR. As I wrote above, they differed in shape from the old samples of this type of knives. Thank you for posting the Central Asian pchak from the Artzi website. Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same. The scabbard that was sold as a set for this pchak is absolutely not traditional for the late 19th and early 20th centuries and was probably made at a later time.

For example, several old pchak knives from Central Asia with authentic scabbards. Surprisingly, they are not all broad.

[Saracen]

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

mahratt, are you offended?
Why? :)
This is my opinion.
Do you not be offended if it does not correspond your opinion.
Nobody is obliged to agree with you.

[ariel]

Kubur,
You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian.
But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat).
Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan).
Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known.
But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided.

The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson.
In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history.
Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.

[Saracen]

Thank you for posting the Central Asian pchak from the Artzi website. Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same. The scabbard that was sold as a set for this pchak is absolutely not traditional for the late 19th and early 20th centuries and was probably made at a later time.

"Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same."
???!!!!! You should still look for 10 differences.

I'm glad you liked it. Here's three another.

PS: In my message, besides pictures, there were some letters.

[ariel]

Apologize for posting an almost identical message twice: my iPad kept my first one “unpublished” for a long time and I assumed it was lost. That was the reason for the second one. And suddenly.....:-)

[mahratt]

mahratt, are you offended?
Why? :)
This is my opinion.
Do you not be offended if it does not correspond your opinion.
Nobody is obliged to agree with you.

I take no offence. Moreover, I am not offended by certain participants. It's just that if people write nonsense because of their lack of knowledge, I point it out)))

[mahratt]

Kubur,
You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian.
But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat).
Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan).
Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known.
But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided.

The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson.
In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history.
Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.

Again, there are a lot of empty words that are not related to the topic of discussion. It is not clear why this political information about the "USSR - an empire of evil" is in the subject)))) I remind Ariel, who left the USSR so long ago that he forgot that carrying knives (like any other weapon) was prohibited in the USSR after the WW2 war. I wrote above about working with precious metals (silver) at the state level.
An exception was made only for the inhabitants of the Caucasus and only for national holidays.
And even more so in the post-war USSR, no one would have allowed representatives of the people resettled to other territories to engage in the manufacture of knives or some of their elements.

[mahratt]

"Due to this, it can be seen that the proportions of the blades of the old Central Asian and Turkish pchak are practically the same."
???!!!!! You should still look for 10 differences.

I'm glad you liked it. Here's three another.

PS: In my message, besides pictures, there were some letters.

The first knife from the topic is in Indian scabbard, not in Central Asian ones. In the other two examples, you can observe the scabbard from large Central Asian knives that were matched to small Central Asian knives that did not have a scabbard. Sometimes it is worth studying objects not only by those presented on the websites of antiques dealers, but also by museum collections. This will keep you from making stupid mistakes.

P.S. The differences between the scabbard of the Turkish knife that you showed and the scabbard of the author of the topic were seen by everyone except you and Ariel.

[Saracen]

I take no offence. Moreover, I am not offended by certain participants. It's just that if people write nonsense because of their lack of knowledge, I point it out)))

Little text, many pictures, among them not a single Central Asian knife in a Dagestan scabbart.
One half of the information you do not comprehend, from that the second seems like nonsense.
This is because you are more concerned with yourself than with the issues that are considered here.
But in pictures, you always become active ).
Yes, with you stupid, but always funny))


P.S. The differences between the scabbard of the Turkish knife that you showed and the scabbard of the author of the topic were seen by everyone except you and Ariel.

No matter how much you shout "sugar", your mouth will not become sweeter ))


PS: We are talking about the scabbard, not about the knives that are associated with them or not.
And this Central Asian scabbards have very little to do with the scabbard in question.
Just don't say that this simple thought has escaped you again.


I apologize to everyone for this development of the topic.

[Battara]

Folks I am going to make one warning that that's it.

We cannot get personal here on this thread of forum.

If I see this again, the offender(s) will be edited out and the punishment will be severe.

[Gonzoadler]

The meskethian daggers shown here have some similarities with mine. But here is an Indian dagger which has also a scabbard with a similar shape. There are differences but they are not really bigger.
One dagger mahratt has shown is not only similar in shape, it is also similar in style/decor. So I have to agree with him. It has a flower decor, a pearl-like decor at the mouth of the scabbard an these tetragonal fields (yes, in mahratts case with Lapis). Other examples are decorated with Niello, like mine.

What makes my Kard more meskhethian than uzbekh?

Regards

[Gonzoadler]

...

[Saracen]

Ottoman kard in a scabbard made by a Lak master.
Manufacturing technique and composition Dagestanian (Gonzoadler, pay attention to the traditional edging of these scabbard and the edging of the bottom of your four-petal flowers),
but in the center of the composition, instead of Lak motifs, there are elements of the traditional Ottoman ornament of Rumi (Anatolian).
This scabbard was made by a Dagestani master in the Ottoman Empire for a Turkish owner.

Compare the shape and proportions of your scabbard and all the Central Asian ones shown. They are different.

[ariel]

Gonzoadler,
Let me clarify what I said earlier: I am afraid I was not clear enough.

IMHO, the scabbard bears some marks of a Turkish style, and my main point is the upturned elongated ending of it. This is very similar to the stylized “dolphin” that we routinely see on yataghan scabbards. But the silverwork is “Caucasian”, Lak style of embossing. Starting late 19th century, ethnic borders of decoration in that area became blurred and largely uniform: silversmiths became itinerant and started working in almost industrial workshops. This, silverworks from large centers , - Tiflis, Akhaltsikhe, Vladikabkaz etc , became by and large virtually identical. Some went to Turkey and Persia, and some went to Central Asia.


My reference to Meskheti masters did not refer to the style of decorations,.
I was talking only about dating. At the end of 19-beginning of 20 century Caucasian style could have been introduced to Central Asia from any of the above areas. But in 1944 there was a sudden inflow of more than 100,000 Turks from the Samtskhe-Javakheti area who were evicted from their homes and forcibly resettled in Central Asia. Thus, there was a distinct possibility, - almost certainty,- that among them were at least several silversmiths who managed to find jobs there. It did not change the style of their work, but just added another potential time interval to the date of manufacture. No more. That was the reason I mentioned them. Hope I made myself clearer this time around.

Regretfully their material culture was extinguished and I have no idea whether there even are authentic examples of their old works in Georgian museums to find comparisons.

[Gonzoadler]

Ok ariel, sounds possible.
In my opinion it is less likely than central asia (because of some pieces like in this thread) but I wouldn't exclude it completely. The parts the dagger is made of looking old to me. However I have Kindjals which are from the second half of the 20th century and the silver work is of good quality.
So it is sometimes difficult to estimate the age of pieces in caucasian style.

Regards

[ariel]

You are 100% correct: contemporary Georgian masters have improved immensely over the past 10-20 years.
And I am not talking about real superstars: Zaqro Nonikashvili, who makes full-length wootz saber blades, and Gotcha Lagidze who not only restores old weapons but makes truly authentic replicas.

Not surprising: the same story happened in India, when local Rajahs were encouraged to establish workshops replicating truly old weapons. Within the same time interval, they were producing masterpieces that (apparently) take a substantial ( allegedly) parts of the Wallace collection in London and al-Sabah collection in Kuwait as dated to the 16-17th centuries. One thing remained largely unconquered: Persian-style wootz blades.

[fernando]

Ariel, your PM box is full.

[ariel]

Done.
Now it has only 3 messages left. I have space for the entire collection of Proust’s works:-)

[Saracen]

...

This is the most obvious way to attach the removable locket to the scabbard.
On the Central Asian scabbard, the connection is masked by elements of the composition of the ornament and turquoise.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard doesn't even attempt to hide this connection.
This is in the Ottoman tradition. In the Ottoman tradition a removable locket always stands out stylistically on an all-metal scabbard, even when it is one-piece with a scabbard.
Аlso the Gonzoadler's scabbard has the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard.
Central Asian scabbard kards like in post 10,
unites Central Asian and Dagestan elements in the decor.
Dagestani elements are only in the center.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard has no Central Asian elements at all. On what basis can they be attributed to Central Asia?

[Kubur]

Thanks for the example.
It seems in childhood such a comparison was called "find 10 differences".
The only thing in common between these scabbards is that they are made of silver ...

Yes, it's hopeless and after the agressive comments posted I agree with Battara about his warning

and it's better for you to not waste your precious time.

Take care my friend.

Kubur

[Saracen]

What's the matter, Kubur?
A simple question without emotion: what are the signs that allow the scabbard to be attributed to the Central Asian one? Besides to the Dagestan ornament.
It seems to me that you misunderstood something again. Also like in your post 30