The Knife Amnesty in the UK....the repercussions for edged weapons collectors

[katana]

For those that don't know, we, in the UK, are currently in a 'back lash' situation with regards to knives and knife crime.
A knife amnesty is being tried, whereby edged weapons can be handed in at police stations. Below is a summary from an on-line BBC report.

Knife amnesty nets 17,700 weapons
Over 17,700 weapons were handed in during the first week of the national knives amnesty, the Home Office said.
Machetes, meat cleavers and axes as well as knives were among the haul of 17,715 surrendered to the 43 police forces across England and Wales.
Home office minister Vernon Coaker said the results were "encouraging".
The five-week amnesty, running until 30 June, allows people to surrender knives at police stations without fear of punishment.
Mr Coaker urged those who had not yet handed in their weapons to do so.
"The initial figures for the first week of that campaign are very encouraging, " he said.
"That is 17,715 fewer weapons that can be used in a crime against ordinary, law-abiding citizens.
"If you carry a knife out of self-defence, you run the risk of having it turned on you. Carrying a knife is illegal and will not be tolerated. It could land you four years in prison"

I am wondering if new laws may be introduced which could seriously affect collectors, in the UK. Perhaps a licence to own edged weapons, and strict guidelines on how, or if, you could display your collection, openly in your own home or office.

Has anyone got any views on this subject .....?

[The Double D]

If sheep had fangs and claws, wolves would eat more rabbits.

[Tim Simmons]

Unfortunately society, well a good society has to function as a flock.

This is a reaction mainly to teenage crime, often with only teenage emotion as motive. Some might fully understand what violence is. I bet they do not really understand that if you stick a knife in someone it might kill them. A program of education and realisation would do a lot better than all this, lining sharp things up and blaming them. All that is going to happen is a lot of antique knives will be handed in by old people and destroyed.

[katana]

Unfortunately society, well a good society has to function as a flock.

A program of education and realisation would do a lot better than all this, lining sharp things up and blaming them. All that is going to happen is a lot of antique knives will be handed in by old people and destroyed.


I agree, its a shame, afterall a knife left to its own devices is still a knife. A knife in the hand of man is suddenly a deadly weapon. Education is the key point. As to your comment about antique knives, on the local news they showed a few of those that had been handed in.....I almost cried....these were to end up being cut up and recycled...and yet I can walk down the road and buy a potentially lethal stainless steel bowie knife,for a few quid......doesn't make sense

[Lew]

This is another example of lawmakers creating stupid laws based on hysteria! The criminals will still be carrying knives in order to commit crimes. This is the same lame law that banned switch blades back in the 1950-60s due to Hollywood's portrayal of gangs running around the streets with these knives. I believe the spike in knife related crimes is attributed to crimes committed by youths and not adults.
In the last year more than 20 teenagers have died as a result of knife attacks in the UK - that's almost one teenager every two weeks. Like I said it's the young people who are doing the crimes. Children should not carry knives to school. Adults usually are a little more responsible we hope.

Here the way they want to handle it in the UK.


The plan involves:

A licensing scheme for the sale of non-domestic knives and similar objects
Increasing the minimum purchasing age from 16 to 18
Banning the sale of swords :eek:
The Executive wants to ensure police make more use of stop and search powers and Ministers also want police to have the power of arrest on suspicion of carrying knives or offensive weapons
Ministers are also proposing to double the sentence for possessing a knife or offensive weapon from two years to four.


Lew

[Rick]

The sound of a million knees jerking ... :rolleyes:

[BSMStar]

If this knife ban truly goes into affect... someone is going to have to give up steak and just have mashed potatoes (unless the masher is on the ban list as well). :rolleyes:

It is just my silly opinion...

In Canada, they have spent millions of dollars on registering firearms, with the goal of lowering the crime and murder rate (a good cause). But the result is that the crime and murder rate with firearms has actually increased... not decreased. Why, because criminals don't register their firearms and lawful registration does not stop criminals. It looks like Canada is going to invest its cash in other things beside registration.

Now England wants the good folks to turn in these nasty pointy sticky things... the problem is that only good folks and not criminals will comply with this "turn in " policy. The spin that we get in the end... there's another terrible weapon taken off the street... while grandma turns in her ole steak knife. Well, at least the cow agrees with that.

Aren't they over looking the real issue here, something called personal responsibility? Who is committing the crime, the firearm, the knife or could it be people? Unless we start holding people accountable for what they do and what they do it with... we are going continue to outlaw "harmful" things until we are left with nothing more than running around naked in a padded room (until someone find that harmful too, and at this rate - someone will). :rolleyes:

[Mark]

OK, here is the big question: "What is a 'knife?'"

I mean, do people have to empty out their kitchen drawers, here? What about restaurant chefs? Butchers? A knife doesn't have to have a serrated edge or a cross-guard in order to be deadly. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a knife - any sharpened bit of metal or hard plastic will work as well on soft tissue (just ask your average prison inmate).

It really is pretty absurd. Unfortunately, its an actual law as well. I would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

[Jens Nordlunde]

This question has been discussed earlier, and there can be different ways to attack this issue. Andrew and Mark knows a lot about it, but otherwise try to contact The Danish Arms and Armour Society or the arms societies in Norway and Sweden to hear how they have made to live with an issue like that.

[katana]

I suppose, that the amnesty is the government's way of showing the population that something is being done. More of a PR stunt than a genuine attempt to solve the problem. Typically they miss the fact that the root of the problem is entwined with today's society.
Kids feel vunerable so they 'arm' themselves for protection .....however, the majority would never use the knife anyway.....but it could 'arm' their assailant if it was taken from them.
Knives and swords have increased kudos with many recent films and PC games glorifying their use, impressionable teenagers want to emulate this to impress their peers without really understanding the true implications of stabbing another human being.

[Tim Simmons]

Where's my bouncey castle, that is UK slang for padded cell.

[Ian]

It really is pretty absurd. Unfortunately, its an actual law as well. It would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.
A concealed weapon law would have made more sense, but personally I would have disagreed with that approach too. Why should people not be allowed to carry a good all purpose knife in their pocket, like any other tool? Yes, a tool might be a weapon, but a tool is primarily a tool. Are we going to outlaw a screwdriver or chisel because they could be used to stab somebody? Maybe in a prison setting that would be a good idea. Otherwise it sounds pretty stupid.:mad:

This is straying into politics, and the forum discourages such comments. So I'll shut up. Enough venting.:rolleyes:

Ian.

[Henk]

I'm really concerned about these stupid laws, made by nitwits. In Holland those idiot delevery weeks where also used to collect knives from youngsters. I know because i have some policemen among my friends that even brave citicens brought in the most beautiful swords, knives and keris for destruction. And now i'm talking about museum pieces!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[nechesh]

Quote from Katana"s firt post:
"If you carry a knife out of self-defence, you run the risk of having it turned on you. Carrying a knife is illegal and will not be tolerated. It could land you four years in prison"

Am i missing something? Does this law go further than this? It seems to be about CARRYING edged weapons, not owning them. Does this law also ban owning such weapons in ones home? If so i have a problem with it. If it is just about carrying such weapons i don't see a problem....except, of course, that criminals will continue to carry regardless. But i don't necessarily see it as a threat to the collector world.

[VANDOO]

THE ATHORITIES WHO ONLY COLLECT MONEY AND HAVE BODYGARDS WITH LOTS OF GUNS ARE JUST TRYING TO PROTECT THE IGONORANT LOWER CLASSES. WHAT A LOAD OF S. :mad: THE REASON THERE IS A PROVISION IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION FOR BEARING ARMS IS TO KEEP THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE FROM GETTING ABSOLUTE POWER OVER THE PEOPLE. IF THEY DO GET SUCH CONTROL HISTORY IN MANY COUNTRYS HAS SHOWN OVER AND OVER THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS ABUSE THAT POWER. A DEMOCRATIC GOVERMNENT SHOULD TRUST AND BE HONEST WITH THEIR CITIZENS AND THEN THE CITIZENS WILL TRUST THE GOVERNMENT OTHERWISE NO GOVERNMENT WILL WORK WELL AND A REPUBLIC WILL FAIL. THE OTHER WAY TO RULE THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRIES CITIZENS IS BY PROPAGANDA, POOR EDUCATION, TERROR AND FEAR. UNFORTUNATELY THIS LATTER TYPE IS A MORE COMMON KIND OF GOVERNMENT THRU OUT MANS HISTORY.

THE DESTRUCTION OF A RARE ONE OF A KIND MUSEUM GRADE WEAPON IS MORE OF A CRIME THAN CARRYING A SIMPLE POCKET KNIFE. THE MOST IMPORTANT SURVIVAL TOOL THAT GOES BACK TO MANS EARLY PRE- HISTORY HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE KNIFE, IT IS RIGHT UP THERE WITH FIRE IN IMPORTANCE. YET THE BAN WILL INCLUDE NAIL CLIPPERS, BLUNT NOSED SISSORS AND BUTTER KNIVES CAN YOU IMAGINE GOING TO PRISON FOR YEARS FOR CARRING A SWISS ARMY KNIFE? THEY WILL HAVE TO MAKE EXAMPLES OF THAT TYPE TO TERRIFY THE LAW ABIDING INTO TOTAL SUBMISSION. THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT WILL THRIVE AND THE RICH WILL GET RICHER AND THE GOOD CITIZENS AND SOCIETY WILL SUFFER. TO LIVE IN FEAR OF YOUR GOVERNMENT AND FEAR OF THE CRIMINAL WHO YOU NO LONGER HAVE A CHANCE OF PROTECTING YOURSELF FROM IS NOT QUALITY LIFE OR FREEDOM. POOR GOVERNMENT, LAWS AND PRESS WILL DESTROY A COUNTRY AND PEOPLE JUST AS SURLEY AS AN INVADING ARMY AND MAKE IT EASIER AND FASTER FOR ENEMYS TO CONQUER.

[A. G. Maisey]

In recent years here in Australia there has been an increasing political push of the "law and order" line. This has resulted in a number of restrictions, and attempts by politicians to introduce harsher penalties.

Since there has in fact been an overall decrease in crimes of violence within the Australian community, it is obvious that this pushing of the law and order barrow is politically motivated and based upon the perception of advisors that there are more votes in a hard law and order line than in a more relaxed one.

Some years ago I was involved very closely in the actions taken by our state government to introduce laws that were designed to address the carrying of knives and other weapons by a small number of persons in particular locations.

The legislation that was eventually enacted was strong, workable legislation that has provided the police with a very practical tool to deter the carriage and use of knives and other weapons in public places.

I do not believe it is demonstrable that this legislation has resulted in a decrease in the use of knives or other implements as weapons, but it is legislation that because of its common sense nature has a high degree of respect within the community.

Effectively this legislation acknowledges that it is not the knife, nor the screwdriver, nor the icepick, nor the bunch of keys that is a danger, but the carriage of these implements in a public place without good and proveable reason.

Under this legislation police are empowered to detain and search in situ persons who are reasonably suspected of being in possession of knives or other implements without good reason.

However, since all this type of legislation is politically motivated, and since politicians need to continually prove that they are ever on guard to protect the public good, we are now in the position of waiting for the introduction of new legislation that could place a ban on the ownership of swords.

That is ownership. Not carriage. Uncle Ben's bayonet from WWII that is used as a dibble stick could well become a prohibited weapon.

This new legislation raised its ugly head perhaps two years ago as something that the then Minister of Police wished to see come out of an impartial, objective, routine review of the Prohibition of Weapons Act.

I have been advised that the report of the review will be available within the very near future. This report will form the basis for amendments to legislation.

We do not yet know what these amendments might be, but based upon what has already been introduced into some other states, they could involve licencing, very expensive safe keeping requirements, the keeping of auditable records, and a multitude of other obnoxious and totally ineffective requirements. Ineffective in the sense of providing an increased level of security for the community.

Then of course there is the problem of defining exactly what a sword might be.Richard Burton could not do it.

Here in the state of New South Wales, in Australia, those of us who have a vested interest in swords and other edged weapons are currently waiting with bated breath to see what new delights our law makers might have in store for us.

Apart from those with a vested interest in swords, a number of gardeners, tradesmen, and housewives who are aware of the implications for them of an unwisely drafted piece of legislation, are also very interested to see exactly how much wisdom our elected representatives might have in this matter.

[Rick]

There is something to be said in favor of living in "The States" .

I keep my Moro swords in a glass topped 3 drawer collector's table ; one night we had a cop in the house about some strange phone calls we were getting , he sat down on our couch to fill out his report ;when he saw the krisses he simply chuckled and quipped " what's this ; in case of emergency break glass ?"

I also think about the movie Network ; a savage commentary on American television .
I think this quote from the script fits ; maybe some of you will remember it :

" I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV's while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They're crazy. It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, 'Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone.' Well, I'm not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot - I don't want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street. All I know is that first you've got to get mad.
Howard Beale: [shouting] You've got to say, 'I'm a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!' So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell,
[shouting]
Howard Beale: 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!' I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it:
Howard Beale: [screaming at the top of his lungs] "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

[Mark]

Oh, yes. We can be prisoners of our own complacency. When the news is showbusiness, and a comedy show is the most reliable news source, the signs are there. We have freedoms, in theory, but by not understanding them and, more importantly, not exercising them, they can become meaningless. Not lost, but just as bad. They become words on a piece of paper that no one reads. You don't have to be violent about exercising your rights, just firm, just certain, and hopefully informed. You have to care about it, see it as more than a morning "wasted" in line at the local voting station.

So there is my political rant. Just my opinion, of course. Now, where did I put that remote .... ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Mark, we should defend our rights.

In the USA you do indeed have rights to defend.

In Australia we have no constitutional rights as you do, and the old Bill of Rights has long been superceded by legislation.

Many of the things that people in USA regard as God given rights are in Australia regarded as privileges.

Successive governments of both major political persuasions at both federal and state levels have methodically chipped away at freedoms that we thought we had.

The current government of this country , which is a hardline conservative government, has recently introduced industrial relations legislation that will eventually see the employer/employee relationship put back to the late 19th century. One does not have to be particularly brilliant to understand the principle reason behind the anti-weapons legislation and the relentless social engineering designed to turn the Australia population into sheep.

I am now 65 years of age, and in quite comfortable circumstances. Were I younger, or in any sort of volatile employment situation, I would probably give very serious consideration to migrating to another country.

The Australia of 2006 is not the country that my forebears fought for in two world wars, nor is it the country that I grew up in.It is nothing even remotely similar to the country presented in movies.

[katana]

By introducing laws g r a d u a l l y governments are able to exert CONTROL of its citizens. People tend to ignore small changes,.....but these develop, over time into radical adjustments of the law.
As Newton said 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. If a radical,unpopular law was introduced then there would be an intense reaction from the people. But that isn't the 'modus operatum' of most governments, it is the gradual eroding of your civil liberties that occurs ....almost unnoticed.

Elected politicians are supposed to be representative of the people....when was the last time you heard a government official ask what it’s citizens want........
It seems that many countries are becoming 'Nanny States' where more and more responsibility is taken away from its population. Where common-sense seems to be valueless and the 'dumbing down' of the population common...........rant over.......deep breath....think calm.....fluffy rabbits....and exhale........

I think, that 'the power of the knife' has been imbedded in our psyche ...... it wasn't that long ago...... that knife wielding terrorists ...hijacked several planes.....and killed thousands. (My condolences to all the victims and their families). This terrible act was facilitated by gaining control of a plane using the threat of a knife. People were amazed that the use of a simple metal implement could cause such devastation. Suddenly the knife was seen as extremely dangerous, even in today’s society.

[Mark]

I call it the boiling frog syndrome.

[katana]

I call it the boiling frog syndrome.

and I think ...us frogs have just noticed the waters bubbling..... just been informed by government officials....not to worry.... it's a jacuzzi......thank God for that............I thought I was being boiled alive :rolleyes:

[Andrew]

Control. It's what those in power always want. Small things like civil liberties are annoyances and the erosion of those liberties only benefits those in power.

Using fear to abrogate civil liberties is classic and effective. After all, this is for you own good.... :rolleyes:

[kronckew]

... I would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

there are already anti-carry laws here:

rant on:

you can legitimately carry a folding knife with a blade UNDER 3 inches, as long as it is not a lock knife, ie. if it's more likely to hurt you than someone else it's probably OK. swords are already illegal 'offensive' weapons that can't be carried off your own property without valid reasons (like re-enactment fairs, etc.)

anything over three inches, or fixed blades of any kind can be carried if you have a legitimate use for them, ie while on a hunting/fishing trip, just don't stop off at the grocery on the way. the police get to decide if it is legitimate or not, not you. you may need to spend a few thousand proving it in court.

push daggers, sword canes, gravity & switch blades, as well as balisongs are already prohibited 'offensive' weapons & are illegal to sell, buy, trade, or loan - you can keep any you have as long as it stays on your property & you never actually use it.

ANYTHING is considered an offensive weapon if you actually use it to defend yourself, even if it is legal to own otherwise. a man here confronted by an aggressive burglar in his kitchen picked up a steak knife & stabbed the burglar. the homeowner was arrested & went to jail for possession of an offensive weapon. canes, bats, chair legs, rolled up newspapers, sticks, are all 'offensive' weapons if used as a weapon, there is no such thing as a defensive weapon.

most of the knives turned in on the 'amnesty' were perfectly legal kitchen knives, with a sprinkling of outrageous 'fantasy' hibben style wierdo's (which of course are the ones they show on TV news). the police here love these political happenings as they can sort out the antiques and sell them on ebay to suppliment their income. my (ex) father in law, an ex-royal navy officer, had a beutiful pair of blued and gold inlayed german hunting swords he'd liberated from a german e-boat captain in ww2 that i had hoped he would leave to me, but he turned them in in another of these 'amnesties' back in the 70's - didn't do any good then, won't make a bit of difference now.

they got rid of private ownership of fire-arms (politicians exempt of course) and wonder why gun crime is up, now they'll come up with more 'urgent' anti-knife legislation to 'protect' us from ourselves. looks good to appear to be doing something, even if it hasn't a hope of actually doing anything to cure the original problem.

it is basically illegal to defend yourself in the UK under any circumstance. there are statutes supposedly allowing 'reasonable' force when defending yourself, but the police & the judiciary seem to feel that if a burglar breaks in & has a baseball bat, it is unreasonable to shoot him with a shotgun. if he attempts to beat you to a pulp, it is unreasonable to pick up a lamp & hit him with it, heaven forbid an old lady hit a thug with her walker, she'd be jailed for life.

what we are supposed to do is wait till the perp has finished doing whatever he intended, and if you survive, you call the police. they will assign a case number an send a team out to take details at some later safe time, to ensure the police are not in danger. people are routinely told that the police won't come out on such petty crimes as cars being broken into or 'simple' burglaries or B&E's as there is nothing they can do anyway.

there was a woman here who bled out after being attacked because the 'armed response' team was not sure the perp was'nt still in the house, so they waited an hour before believing the other survivors who had fled who said hge had gone already, they then went in & surprise - no perp, just a dead woman.

anyway, it's not politically correct to be in favor of armed citizenry here due to the extensive brain-washing. i am of course, considered odd for collecting edged weapons and am asked all they time why i would have such dangerous horrible demon devices....tho i am allowed a certain leeway as i am an american and we are known to be gun-totin' knife weilding crazies anyhow.

now you know why the UK never wins anything at olympic shooting or fencing events.

rant off.

[Rivkin]

I can offer just my personal experience - I went to school in slums. During my stay there 4 students were killed - one was stabbed, one had his brains blown out by a hammer, two were tied up and thrown from the 9th floor.
Trust me, you don't need a knife to kill someone - screwdriver or hammer work great. There are also tons of other possibilities, like heavy belt buckles, socks with pennies and piano strings for true weirdos. Otherwise, like it happened with me, you can just take someone and smash his head into a heater.

For some biological reasons violance is rather exciting and on some level is quite pleasant, altough the taste is an acquired one. Unfortunately, with the life of most people in slums being rather dull and gloomy, drugs, alcohol and violence is what people resort to.

[Rick]

That's not a rant , it's a legitimate gripe !
We have the same basic knife carry rules in Massachusetts as you do over in old Jolly .
These rules vary from state to state though ; for instance in Florida it's open season guns and all ! A rude gesture in traffic could get you your head blown off .
We are indeed a country of contrasts ; even in Mass. it's not too hard for an average small town bloke to get a concealed carry permit . I don't really see this as a particularly bad thing provided the bearer is sane .

Recently we had a fellow over to fix some furniture my Wife bought (imagine wasting your money on furniture when there are so many deserving swords out there looking for a home) ; to make a long story even longer I engaged him in conversation as he enjoyed the swords he had seen ; we got around to talking about guns and laws etc. and he says "here, check this out" and proceeds to pull out of his front pocket a beautiful little S&W revolver . He unloaded it and let me check it out ; "nice piece" says I "how did you ever get a permit to carry concealed" he says "it's the best thing to do when you go for your firearms ID. card ; go for the whole 9 yards , might as well before they clamp down."
Truer words were never said .

Freedoms ; use 'em or lose 'em .

[katana]

Violence is latent in all of us, to a degree the ability to attack / defend yourself is instinctive, its only circumstances and an individual ability to control their emotions that ensures that there is less violence.
Chimpanzees, have for years, been considered fairly peaceful vegetarians.....but that was far the truth. Anthropologists and zoologists have discovered, by observation that Chimpanzee's can be incredibly violent, they have the capacity to seek revenge, gain power or to bully.
Occasionally they hunt for meat, usually a small monkey; the hunting party will capture the animal and literally rip it apart, with great excitement and 'blood lust'.

Seeing that the genetic make-up of a chimp is one of the closest to Man, we can see our 'true' selves after our emotional / educated sophistication has been stripped away.
Articles used to injure/maim/kill are many and varied, as has already been stated everyday items have / are used. The source of the problems with violent attacks is not the weapons used. It is the inability of individuals to control themselves and in societies where stress is dramatically increasing....this lack of control would, surely, increase dramatically.........

[mross]

I am on a Nihonto list and one of the members is meeting with "John Reid (Home Sec) at the Home Office, to discuss the proposed ban on "Samurai Swords". " I will let you know what information I can. I suspect though that a good model to gleen information from as to what will happen is the UK gun ban. As others have said it is not about effective crime control it's politics.

[katana]

I found this site thought it relavent

http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php

[Aqtai]

I don't think this applies to collectors. For starters we don't carry our blades around. Mine are in a box in my study waiting to be mounted on the wall. And we certainly don't go around stabbing people. This law is for yobs who stab teenagers in front of schools etc.

Saying that I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and they had an exhibit of amnestied bladed objects, and among the usual homemade knives, modern hunting knives etc was an antique cavalry sabre...

[Tim Simmons]

This is where concerns of "freedom" get a little silly. I like to think we are not wild animals and do not need to walk around our environments with substitute claws and fangs. Some effort should be put into stopping this cultish side to nastiness {just cannot think of another term} I know bad things happen and there are indeed some very unpleasant people around. Hey, if I felt I needed or wanted one of these knives then I hope someone would take me to the doctor. Lets have a big shoot out and stab fest in the shopping mall, you just do not need it. I do not like the idea of going to the corner shop and feeling half of the safe looking customers are carrying weapons. What if I looked at you the wrong way or bumped into you or some other misunderstanding happened and arguing took place, could I rely on your responsibility. It is always someone else who is a crazy. :eek: :D :confused: :eek: :( :eek: :(

[not2sharp]

There is something to be said in favor of living in "The States" .



This might be a good time to ship parts of your collections over seas. At least then you have the option of either moving there, selling it, or moving it back when the laws permit. Just sitting there as the water rises may leave you trapped in a mess where the only option left to you is to surrender it to the authorities for distruction.

n2s

[not2sharp]

This is where concerns of "freedom" get a little silly. ... I do not like the idea of going to the corner shop and feeling half of the safe looking customers are carrying weapons."

Even if you strip everyone nakked, there is always a good chance that anyone crazy enough to attack you will simply smash your head into the ground until it splits open. The world is what it is; and the presence, or removal, of artifacts is not going to change that.

n2s

[katana]

This might be a good time to ship parts of your collections over seas. At least then you have the option of either moving there, selling it, or moving it back when the laws permit. Just sitting there as the water rises may leave you trapped in a mess where the only option left to you is to surrender it to the authorities for distruction.

n2s

I really hope it doesn't get as bad as that........I'll have to start collecting
guns or .... stamps :rolleyes:

At least they haven't mentioned blow pipes...... I've got two .... ;)

[Rick]

I really hope it doesn't get as bad as that........I'll have to start collecting
guns or .... stamps :rolleyes:

At least they haven't mentioned blow pipes...... I've got two .... ;)

Ahem , they're illegal in my state .
I've got one , shhhh .. ;)

[mross]

I don't think this applies to collectors. For starters we don't carry our blades around. Mine are in a box in my study waiting to be mounted on the wall. And we certainly don't go around stabbing people. This law is for yobs who stab teenagers in front of schools etc.

Saying that I was in the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds today, and they had an exhibit of amnestied bladed objects, and among the usual homemade knives, modern hunting knives etc was an antique cavalry sabre...

Please take note of my reference to the UK gun ban. No one cared if it was a
collector piece and safetly locked away. It be came contraband and had to be turned in.

[katana]

Ahem , they're illegal in my state .
I've got one , shhhh .. ;)

A very interesting ethnographic hunting tool........not that I hunt with them myself.......to lazy......easier to 'hunt' in the super-market and the only weapon I need ...is my credit card..........and thats killing me :D :D :rolleyes:

I vote for a credit card amnesty.... I suspect they are killing us all ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

The point has been made that restrictive action taken by those in authority, is really about control.

It is probably fair to assume that most people in the world today live in communities.

The purpose of a community is to support and sustain the members of the community.

The members of the community must submit to the level of control necessary to ensure that the community remains a viable entity.

The viability of any community in the developed world today depends upon that community's continued economic viability.

The economic viability of a community relies upon the members of that community being productive units who will direct their productive capacity towards the support of themselves and the community.

If restrictive action is about control, and I personally believe that it is, it may be of benefit to all of us to try to come to some sort of understanding in respect of who gains the greatest benefit from that control.

Does the greatest benefit accrue to the community member who is furthest down in the pecking order of the community, or does it accrue to the community member who is at the top of the pecking order?

Since communities in the developed world are economic entities, is it not reasonable to expect to find that those at the top of the community pecking order, are also at the top of the economic pecking order?

Has anybody noticed the increasing polarisation of wealth in our societies?

Does anybody truly believe that our elected representatives are acting in the best interests of the majority of people who elected them?

Or is it possible that those elected to govern us are in fact governing us in a fashion calculated to produce the greatest benefits for those in control of the economic wealth of the community?

If this is so, then ask yourself, who really controls the community in which I live?

Is it I and my neighbour through the power of our vote and our voice, or is it some unseen person or organisation?

When we have lost all our rights, ( or , if you live in Australia, your privileges,) except those inalienable rights to be born, produce, consume, and die, we may console ourselves with the thought that as members of a community we have ensured the continuation of a system that on the whole has more to recommend it than its alternative.

You thought this was all about taking away our toys?

Well, it ain't.

Its about the continuation of the human race.

If a steamroller is coming down the road a smart man steps to one side, he does not try to stop it.

[ariel]

There used to be a horrendously strict weapon control in USSR: a hunting knife required a police permit. Well, anybody with a neuron in his brain had a home-made shiv, and kitchen knives were used widely. I have a book:" Russian Prison Knives": you should see what kinds of knives imprisoned criminals made in the GULAG!

[t_c]

I think one of the main problems is trying to educate people who do not collect or who do not practice martial arts, that we (hopefully I can speak a little for all of us collectors/practioners) are not the ones out there committing violent crimes with our weapons. I have been having an OCD (obssesive compulsize disorder) couple of months buying edged stuff on ebay and was recently scolded (albeit lightly) on my shopping habits by one our secretaries who works with abused children through her church. She didn't understand that just because I buy all these vintage/antique knives, it doesn't mean that I am an advocate of violence. Her only point of reference was the violence in the history of the children she worked with and could only see the potential for violence in my acquisitions. It took me until today to articulate to her that people like me (us) weren't the problem. It is the people who are under great stress to just survive that has pushed them away from the social norms we all normally share (and yes there are the simply mis-wired individuals out there). What lawmakers are too naive or don't care to see (disregarding A. G. Maisey's lucid points on State, Control, and The Citizen) is that if you take away the knives, they will use sticks. Take away the sticks and they will use stones. As Rivkin expressed earlier: it's not the tool, it's the intent. As for the people who do partake in violent activties (outside the ring): my own personal equation for the ills of society (to over-simplify) goes like this: economic deprevation = social degeneration. In the end it's all about stress, and money, being the medium for much of our modern world, is the primary source of this (again: over-simplifing). Controlling weapons does nothing to solve the real problems. I have carried a knife on my person for the better part of 14 years and not once have I ever brandished it or threatened anyone with it, and I have been mugged (four dollars and a cigarette is not really worth fighting for) and have had someone threaten me with the threat of a firearm (never saw it - probably didn't have it). My use of the proverbial silver tongue has disarmed another on more than one occasion. The point is that I wish we could find a way to better express to people that we (collectors and practioners) are not the threat: Let us keep these things that speak to our soul for we will not abuse them, and the people that would abuse them, would abuse anything anyways. That's the source of my frustration in these issues.....
And also, it does horify me that someone would make scrap metal out of someone else's cultural heritage (keep your treasures under the floorboards if you have to).

[Ian]

At least they haven't mentioned blow pipes...... I've got two .... ;)
There are pipes for that? :eek:

[ariel]

There are pipes for that? :eek:

Please refer to this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2660 :D :D

[Rick]

Well said tc , They will still come up with the excuse that your home could be robbed thereby supplying criminals with weapons .
I think at least one of us has had their collection stolen .
I agree about economic despair; welfare was supposed to take care of that .
In some cases welfare has actually exacerbated that problem .

A few of us have taken notice of Alan's steamroller on the horizon ; most of us have not .

[Rick]

Please refer to this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2660 :D :D

Which , by the way, is getting rather raunchy and well past PG13 . :rolleyes:

I'm feeling some remorse today . :o

[nechesh]

Which , by the way, is getting rather raunchy and well past PG13 . :rolleyes:

I'm feeling some remorse today . :o

Experiencing a sexism hang-over Rick? :p
Maybe we should ask Ann and some of the other VERY FEW (wonder why?) women who participate on these forums to give you boys a good talking too.
As Julliette Lewis said to Woody Harrelson in "Natural Born Killers" after he killed the old indian guy, "BADBADBADBADBADBADBAD!!!" :D

[VANDOO]

IN THE USA THE PRESS AND LIBERALS HAVE CREATED A CLASS SYSTEM FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT VERY RICH OR FAMOUS. THEY HAVE USED THE MEDIA THEY CONTORL TO TELL US HOW BAD SOME GROUPS HAVE BEEN TREATED IN THE PAST WHILE TRYING TO SHAME OTHER GROUPS INTO LAYING DOWN AND BEING DESTROYED FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST. IT IS CALLED THE MINORITY PLAN AND ENCOURAGES HATRED, FEAR AND MISTRUST AMOUNG ALL THE CLASSES BELOW THE VERY RICH AND FAMOUS. WELFARE IS SET UP TO JUST KEEP YOU AFLOAT BUT ITS EASY FOR EVEN THE UNEDUCATED TO SEE THAT THEY HAVE NO FUTURE AND IT WOULD TAKE A LOT OF HARD WORK AND LUCK TO BREAK OUT AND BE SUCESSFUL. THE MEDIA AND LIBERALS TELL THEM ITS THE OTHER CLASSES FAULT SO YOU SHOULD PROTEST BY HAVING A RIOT AND LOOT AND BURN UP ALL THE BUSINESS IN YOUR NEBHORHOOD. NOTHING THE PRESS LIKES BETTER THAN A GOOD RIOT OR DISASTER AND ITS NOT THE POOR LOOTERS WHO GET THE BLAME ITS THE CLASS THAT HAPPENS TO BE IN THE MEDIA CROSS HAIRS ALL THE TIME.

THIS SETS UP THE WORKING CLASS AND THE NON WORKING CLASS TO BE AGAINST EACH OTHER MAKEING IT EASIER TO CONTROL BOTH GROUPS. THOSE WHO THINK THEY ARE BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BY THE ENTIRE SOCIETY WILL TAKE THE WELFARE BUT HATE THE SYSTEM AND OFTEN TURN TO VIOLENCE AND CRIME TO GET EVEN WITH THE SYSTEM. THEY THINK THE WORKERS ARE FOOLS AND ENJOY TAKEING WHAT THEY WORK FOR AWAY FROM THEM.

IN MY AREA WE HAVE MULTIPLE LOCAL PROBLEMS
1. ELITE POLITICIANS WHO ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN ENRICHING THEMSELVES AT EVERYONE ELSES EXPENSE.
2. MEDIA CONTROLLED BY THE VERY RICH WHO ALSO WORK WITH OR OWN THE POLITICIANS.
3.THE CLASS SYSTEM THEY HAVE SET UP AND THE HATE ,MISTRUST AND FEAR IT ENCOURAGES.
4. THE PRESS CONSTANTLY OPENS OLD WOUNDS AND MAKES THEM A DAY TO REMEMBER WHAT ONE GROUP DID TO THE OTHER GROUP ON THAT DATE 100 YEARS OR SO AGO SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTEN OR FORGIVEN. THEN THE LAWYERS JUMP IN FIND A DISGRUNTLED FAMILY MEMBER OR SURVIVIOR AND SUE EVERY ONE THEY CAN AND THE TAXPAYERS END UP PAYING THE SETTELMENT AND LAWYERS BILLS. THE TAXPAYERS HAVE MADE MULTI MILLIONARES OUT OF MANY LAWYERS AND MINORITY POLICEMEN AND DISGRUNTLED MINORITYS LOCALLY INSTEAD OF FIXING OUR CITYS PROBLEMS.
5.OUR BIG COMPANYS HIRE LAWYERS WHO TELL THEM HOW TO LEGALLY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEIR WORKERS AND GIVE THEMSELVES MILLIONS IN BOUNUS FOR THE BRILLIANT STRADEGY OF LAYING OFF HALF THE WORK FORCE. SENDING THE JOBS OVERSEAS OR ONLY LETTING THEIR CUSTOMERS TALK TO ANSWERING MACHINES AND OF COURSE LAYING OFF ANYONE 50 YEARS OLD AND NOT HIREING 50 YEARS OR OVER UNLESS ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY. THEY HOPE TO SET IT UP WHERE EMPLOYEES SHOULD FIND A NEW JOB EVERY 4.5 YEARS SO NONE WILL EVER BE VESTED TO DRAW RETIREMENT. THE CEO WHO CAN SUCESSFULLY DO THESE THINGS USUALLY PUTS A FEW 100 MILLION IN HIS BANK ACCOUNT.
5.OUR STATE LEADERS HAVE DECIDED THAT WE CAN GAMBLE OUR WAY TO PROSPERITY. WE NOW HAVE MORE GAMBELING CASINOS HERE THAN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THEY ARE MAKEING A LOT OF MONEY BUT OUR TAX'S ,WATER BILLS AND EVERYTHING ARE GOING UP A LOT EVEN THOUGH WE WERE PROMISED THE GAMBELING MONEY WOULD NOT MAKE THAT NECESSARY.
6. AT THE CURRENT RATE OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION TO THE AREA WE WILL BE THIRD WORLD AND SPEAKING SPANISH IN 10 YEARS IF THEY ALLOW US TO STAY HERE.
7. NOT ALL ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS COME HERE FOR THE OPORTUNITY TO WORK AND THEY ALSO TAKE GOOD JOBS NOT ONLY THOSE THE AMERICANS ARE TOO LAZY TO DO AND DON'T WANT. IT IS ALSO THE LAND OF GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY FOR CRIMINALS ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO THIRD WORLD COUNTRYS SO WE HAVE OUR LOCAL BAD GUYS AND MANY FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD ALSO.

8.CRIME IS SKYROCKETING, DRUG DEALING, GANGS FORIGN AND DOMESTIC,GAMBELING, BURGARLY, AND VIOLENT CRIMES SUCH AS MURDER ARE WAY UP. AND OF COURSE THE CITY NEEDS TO RAISE OUR TAXES SOME MORE BECAUSE WE NEED MORE POLICE AND SCHOOL TEACHERS AS USUAL.
8. BUT NEVER FEAR OUR LEADERS WILL FIX IT ALL BY TAKEING GUNS, KNIVES AND ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE USED FOR SELF DEFENCE AWAY FROM THE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. THE CRIMINAL WILL STILL HAVE THEM AND THE VERY RICH AND FAMOUS WILL HAVE THEIR WELL ARMED SECURITY FORCES OR BODY GAURDS AND SPECIAL POLICE PROTECTION TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE PROTECTED SO THEY CAN LOOK AFTER US. :rolleyes:

ONCE A BODY OF PEOPLE ARE GIVEN THE JOB OF MAKEING A LAW TO TAKE AWAY SOMETHING FROM THE LAW ABIDING THEY ARE NEVER SATISFIED AND WILL KEEP TAKEING MORE AWAY AND MAKEING MORE LAWS AFTER ALL THEY DON'T WANT TO LOSE THEIR JOBS.

WHEN NATURAL RIGHTS BECOMES A PRIVILEGE THEN ONLY THE PRIVELEGED WILL HAVE THOSE RIGHTS!

I AM SURE I COULD COME UP WITH MORE RANTS BUT THATS MORE THAN ENOUGH.

[katana]

Vandoo, from your observations, there indeed seems to be a
DIVIDE AND CONQUER mentality.........and lets face it most Sovereign Countries, that have accumilated Empires, used this method to good effect.

Create dis-harmony amongst the population...... and while they are arguing and fighting..... you quietly take control...

[A. G. Maisey]

Divide and conquer?

Yes.

But divide and rule is perhaps the more correct dictum.

There is no taking of control whilst the populace is otherwise occupied. That control is maintained by keeping the populace occupied with matters that prevent them from thinking about the management of their society by government.

What Barry has described is exactly the practical application of the principle.

However, whichever political party may appear to be managing government, that political party's leaders are themselves being managed by the people, groups of people, and organisations which are at the top of the societal tree.

Anybody here remember Vietnam?

Remember what happened to the Dow every time there were rumours of peace?

And what happened after each major offensive?

Where has the middle class in developed societies gone?

Does the period during which the decline of this middle class has occurred correspond to the period during which western capital has transferred its manufacturing operations to China, its administrative processes to India and Singapore, and whatever other transferable processes it can identify to places where wage rates are very much below what the wage rates are in developed countries?

What is the nature of the employment that remains available for the present and rising generations in developed countries?

Blind Freddy can see that there is no longer the foundation in industry nor commerce which produced the middle class that arose following the industrial revolution.

The wheel of history has turned and wealth, and along with it, position in society, is now in the process of polarising to the situation that was in place in Europe prior to the industrial revolution.

Before this polarisation is complete, there will be a lot of very unhappy people in the populations of the developed countries. If the elite wish to have a reasonable chance of controlling these people , and of managing the economies of these countries, it is necessary for the populations of these countries to be re-engineered into docility and obediance.

There are many tools that can be employed to achieve these ends, and one of these tools is the disarming of the populace. You cannot disarm any group of people that believes in the sanctity of weaponry, nor its necessity to maintain civilian life and protect personal property.

Thus, where a society is already very stable and well controlled, as it is in Australia, you can immediately indoctrinate the community, commencing in school, with the belief that only sociopaths and criminals possess any form of weapon.

Where a society is a little less well controlled, you need to create the conditions where people will believe in the lesser of two evils. By encouraging a proliferation of civilian weaponry in a society that already has severe social schism, and at the same time setting in place social policies that exacerbate that schism, ultimately you will produce a situation where murder and mayhem will become routine. At this point you offer the solution, and that solution will involve severe restrictions that would not be tolerated in a well ordered society.

Those of us with an interest in weaponry are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. We probably all should have been born at least 100 years ago. We are dinosaurs, we all know what happened to the dinosaurs. But we are human dinosaurs, and as humans, we have the power of reason. We may not be able to stop the wheel of time from turning, but we can deduce what it may crush next, and we can step to one side. Along with our collections.

It is important, I believe, to view this entire process with an appreciation of the time frame that could be involved. I think world population is due to peak somewhere within the next 50 years or so. If China continues development at its present rate it will dominate world trade, and by extension, world economics and military power, within 20 to 30 years. Probably the completion of US societal re-engineering cannot be seriously advanced within a time frame that will impact greatly upon anybody reading this. However, there is no doubt that in the more ordered societies of Western Europe, and in my own country, Australia, we can expect to see a continued truncation of civil liberties.Within my lifetime I expect to see many of my present "privileges" (in this country we do not have "rights") reduced or removed. My age is 65.

[Andrew]

It's inevitable that this topic will slide inexorably toward politics. However, let's all please stay away from polarizing the discussion with references to "liberal/conservative" or party politics.

I know my request is a difficult one to adhere to, given the nature of the discussion, but none of us should be eager to see this thread deteriorate into political debate. I am also aware that I, myself, have made somewhat political comments on this thread. Its an interesting and relevant discussion to our forum and, well, I want to participate and see it continue. :cool:

Let's try to keep the discussion objective and cool. I don't think any of the world's power elite post here, so we should be okay blaming them for everything. :D

[katana]

A. G. Maisey your comments are well founded, like you I believe that there are unseen forces whch are dictating a change in social order. What is trully worrying is that this phenomena appears to be Global, many of us, be it British, American, Australian etc. have noticed the same errotion of civil liberties and a gradual shift of power ( both social and economic) to a small minority within each country's population.
The concerns of us (as collectors) regarding the possible reviews of 'knife law' seem to have only scratched the surface of a much larger problem.......the continuing loss of individual human rights.

There is a social order, where individual rights are unheard of, where each member works and lives (unquestionably) for the benefit of the whole
community, which sustains ONE individual.
They are ANTS....... the question is not 'are we mice or men' but rather, are we Ants or men..................... :(

[Rick]

A. G. Maisey your comments are well founded, like you I believe that there are unseen forces whch are dictating a change in social order. What is trully worrying is that this phenomena appears to be Global, many of us, be it British, American, Australian etc. have noticed the same errotion of civil liberties and a gradual shift of power ( both social and economic) to a small minority within each country's population.
The concerns of us (as collectors) regarding the possible reviews of 'knife law' seem to have only scratched the surface of a much larger problem.......the continuing loss of individual human rights.

There is a social order, where individual rights are unheard of, where each member works and lives (unquestionably) for the benefit of the whole
community, which sustains ONE individual.
They are ANTS....... the question is not 'are we mice or men' but rather, are we Ants or men..................... :(

More and more the world is not run by governments but by corporations of all kinds .
To answer your question, yes you are still a man ; but more important than that you are a consumer .

[Emanuel]

I think that will is the only weapon that man -or any other creature- needs. Knives or any tools are irrelevant; if one has the will to hurt or do damage, there's no law that can stop him/her. These ridiculous laws are indeed just methods of control, the problem is that the frogs don't want to accept what they should already know. The establishment is so well controlled that genuine concerns of liberty, rights, etc, are simply not addressed. The frogs know they're boiling, but they have no will to get out of the pan -and even worse, they lack the will to shut off the flame even when they can.

What I find mind-boggling is just the huge number of people that are frogs in this world, and when other frogs try to jump out of their kettles and they bump ours, we get upset and start fights.

The comments made by fellow forumites are right on the money. Another, part of the problem with the world, I think, is that it functions upon false assumptions. I believe there is no economic multiplier effect. For one place or person to prosper, another must decline. I also believe that the natural state of mankind is one of inequality. Equality can only be maintained artificially and to some cost by the community, and now -as has been said- the maintenance of that semblance of equality is being eroded and done away with.

Sad...the wheel of time is indeed unstopable. But the false assumptions (including today's globalization/integration/polarization) may still be broken.

About the Knife Amnesty law: I'm sorry for people of the UK, they're being tricked into destroying chunks of their history, and giving up some hard-earned rights.

Right now in Canada, I still have my most of my rights (including that of collecting some artefacts once used as weapons) but fear-mongering regarding jumping frogs has made it harder to speak one's thoughts, and many rights will soon be reduced in the interest of "national security."
Getting out of the way of the roller is only a temporary fix however...put enough people around it, and it'll stop.

Hmm...anyone ever read Atlas Shrugged?

[VANDOO]

YES I HAVE READ ATLAS SHRUGGED BY AYN RAND IT IS A GOOD READ AS WELL AS EXPRESSING A PHILOSOPHY AND LIKE H.G. WELLS DID PREDICT SOME OF THE FUTURE CONSIDERING WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN.

THE MAIN PROBLEMS WITH SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM IS THAT ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT ALIKE AND WHEN YOU REDUCE THE REWARDS TO THE SAME LEVEL FOR EVERYONE NO MATTER WHAT THE JOB OR HOW HARD YOU WORK OR HOW TALENTED THE INDIVIDUAL THEN MOST STOP TRYING. IF ALL YOU ARE PROVIDED BY YOUR KEEPERS IS THE SAME AS EVERYONE, A PLACE TO SLEEP A BOWL OF FOOD A FEW CLOTHES AND A JOB BASED ON WHAT THEY THINK YOU SHOULD DO, NOT ON YOUR TALENTS OR WANTS WHY DO ANY MORE WORK THAN YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. THE KEEPERS WHO CONTROL EVERYTHING LIVE THE GOOD VERY RICH LIFE AND COME DOWN VERY HARD ON ANYONE WHO DOSEN'T DO AS THEY ARE TOLD SO MANY EXAMPLES ARE MADE FOR MINOR INFRACTIONS. THE ONLY WAY THIS WOULD WORK FOR LONG IS IF THE MAJORITY ARE EDUCATED FROM BIRTH TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD WITHOUT REASONING IT OUT LOGICALLY AND KEPT FROM KNOWING WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE REST OF THE WORLD. PERHAPS YOU COULD KEEP THEM UNEDUCATED OR DRUGGED TO HAVE THE PERFECT ZOMBIE WORK FORCE, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE KEEPERS, IN TODAYS WORLD ZOMBIES DON'T MAKE A VERY GOOD WORK FORCE NO MATTER HOW CHEAP THEY WORK.

HUMANS ARE ALL WIRED TO SURVIVE AND AQUIRE THE THINGS WE INSTINTLY NEED FOR A GOOD LIFE, WE WANT TO HAVE A WIFE A FAMILY, FOOD,SHELTER, BELONGINGS AND FUN. SOME INDIVIDUALS ARE BORN WITH MORE TALENT AND DRIVE AND WILL GET BETTER JOBS AND MAKE BETTER DECISIONS THAN OTHERS. SOME WILL USE WHAT TALENTS THEY HAVE AND STILL HAVE MOST OF THE THINGS EVERYONE WANTS BUT NOTHING EXTRA AND BE VERY CONTENT AS THEY DID THE WORK THEMSELVES AND TAKE PRIDE IN THAT. THERE HAVE TO BE GOOD LAWMAKERS AS THAT IS WHAT KEEPS THOSE WHO ARE VERY POWERFUL FROM TAKEING WHAT THOSE WITH LESS TALENTS AND POWER HAVE WORKED FOR. THAT IS WHERE THE CHIEF PROBLEM WITH THE USA COMES IN WE NEED PEOPLE IN A POSITION OF POWER TO CONTROL THE GREED OF THOSE WITH LOTS OF MONEY AND POWER. BUT THE ONES WITH THE HUNGER TO TAKE IT ALL FOR THEMSELVES HAVE MOST OF THE POWER THIS IS THE CASE IN MANY OTHER COUNTRYS AS WELL. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE WHEN YOU GET SO MUCH MONEY AND POWER THAT IT DOSEN'T THRILL YOU OR MAKE YOU FEEL POWERFUL TO ADD SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS TO YOUR PILE ANY MORE. THEN YOU LIKE TO SEE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY UNDER YOUR THUMB WITH NOTHING AND STRUGGLEING TO SURVIVE AND YOU CAN TAKE IT ALL AWAY AT WILL WHICH MAKES YOU FEEL BIG AGAIN. ITS CALLED BEING A DICTATOR BUT IS REFERED TO IN OTHER TERMS IN MANY COUNTRYS. JUST GUESSING ABOUT THE VERY POWERFUL THEY STAY BEHIND THE SCENES AND I AM CERTIANLY NOT ONE OF THEM SO MUST GO ON HISTORY AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS.
I HAD NOT PLANNED TO POST AGAIN ON THIS TOPIC BUT THE REFRENCE TO ATLAS SHRUGGED MADE ME DO IT :p

[MABAGANI]

So in light of the different theories of where we're headed, what's everyone have planned for their collections. I went through a house fire over a year ago, caused by a smoking tenant, my family was not harmed (thank God) and for some uncanny reason my entire collection was spared damage, but I've downsized quite a bit after a move...when I saw the place up in flames I kissed everything goodbye but was suprised to be able to recover all my belongings, sooner or later the artifacts need to be preserved by the next generation, maybe move them on to close relatives and friends, also universities and museums I've worked with...

[BSMStar]

More and more the world is not run by governments but by corporations of all kinds.

Dude, you must have seen RollerBall.

(Sorry - having flashbacks). :D

[Rick]

Mabagani et al ,
I seriously don't know what to do with most of mine ; a few might be museum worthy but only if I know that they would never be deacessioned ; if that's going to happen then I'll sell them myself .
If I knew of my imminent demise I believe that I would offer some of them to fellow forum members who I know would respect them and keep them safe; I'm not saying for free ; more like for cost or possibly a little less .
I would like to see my Moro stuff go back into that community to further enhance that culture from which so much has been stolen .
A few pieces I would leave to my Son ; all in all I want to have these artifacts live on being appreciated rather than locked in a drawer to slowly rust in a museum .

No joking please; I'm serious .

[katana]

I've just been watching the T.V. News..... Apparently ...even with the 'knife amnesty' ....23 people have died from Knife attacks (in G.B.) in the past 5 weeks, NOW people are saying the amnesty ,does and will, not work. Well, I think that we have concluded as much. My sympathies to all the families and friends of the victims. One case in particular stands out.....a man walking home with his girlfriend.... is fatally stabbed 7 times by a complete stranger with NO motive at all......and the perpetrator IS STILL AT LARGE.
This guy, (the murderer) must be some sort of psychopath....yes a knife was used....but if a knife was not available I am sure he would have used something else.....a wood chisel....a hammer....an ice pick.....a broken bottle.... The knife was the INSTRUMENT, the controlling force ......a mentally imbalanced individual.

[Rick]

I've started a new thread about the disposition of our collections for I think this too is an interesting subject and deserves a thread of it's own .

[Rick]

I've just been watching the T.V. News..... Apparently ...even with the 'knife amnesty' ....23 people have died from Knife attacks (in G.B.) in the past 5 weeks, NOW people are saying the amnesty ,does and will, not work. Well, I think that we have concluded as much. My sympathies to all the families and friends of the victims. One case in particular stands out.....a man walking home with his girlfriend.... is fatally stabbed 7 times by a complete stranger with NO motive at all......and the perpetrator IS STILL AT LARGE.
This guy, (the murderer) must be some sort of psychopath....yes a knife was used....but if a knife was not available I am sure he would have used something else.....a wood chisel....a hammer....an ice pick.....a broken bottle.... The knife was the INSTRUMENT, the controlling force ......a mentally imbalanced individual.

Possibly they're not all really murders (some of them) but planned random asassinations to create a feeling of panic amongst the sheep .

Call me paranoid if you will .....

[katana]

Possibly they're not all really murders (some of them) but planned random asassinations to create a feeling of panic amongst the sheep .

Call me paranoid if you will .....


No.....Conspiracy Theorist :D
MIND YOU ..it takes one to know one...

[A. G. Maisey]

I have tried several times to write what I wish to present for consideration, and several times I have failed.

The problem for me is that this entire matter is very complex, but but at its core it is really very simple.

If it is presented as the complex matter it is, any normally intelligent person will become lost in the maze.

Reduce it to simplicity and there is the danger that my comments may be written off as facile and ill informed.

I have opted to try for simplicity, and beg your indulgence if my remarks do seem a little lightweight, however, I would hope that if you dwell upon what I present, you may see some element of truth.

Barry has mentioned the ideologies rooted in Marxist philosophies. What he has said is unquestionably so. These ideologies do not offer any ultimate solution to the organisation and management of society, any more than does any other ideology. It seems that all the ways in which humankind has attempted to organise itself have some flawed elements , and perhaps that is because humankind itself is flawed.

The problems that initiated this discussion are founded upon the imperfections of us all. We are all members of some society, some community, and those societies and communities are managed by people who are no more perfect than are we.

The nature of any community is that it is made up of a number of people who rely on certain undertakings to provide them with sustenance and protection.

Except in exceptional circumstances, the undertakings that the members of a community rely upon for sustenance are not owned jointly by the members of the community, but by certain individuals either within the community, or outside the community.

The members of the community provide the manpower to operate the undertakings, in return they recieve sustenance.

The owner of the undertaking recieves any excess of production above the need for the community`s sustenance, and this is his profit.

If the undertaking is to succeed and provide the community members with sustenance, and the owner of the undertaking with profit, the community must be kept in a state of order. It must be managed, or in political terms, it must be governed.

There are many philosophies and many ideologies that can provide the foundation to allow the management of a community. All have strengths, all have weaknesses, and all are subject to human frailty.

In the world of business, a commercial or industrial undertaking will have an owner, or it may have shareholders and it will have a CEO. It may have a board of directors. The owner or shareholders will tell the board what outcomes they wish to see achieved, the board will determine the ways in which to best achieve those outcomes, and the CEO will do his best to ensure the outcomes are achieved.

Think of the government of a country in the same way as you would think of the management of a business.
There are the owners and shareholders of the undertakings that constitute the economy of the country.
There is the board of directors , or parliament.
There is the CEO.
There are the workers.

Now ask yourself:-

is any sensible businessman going to allow his workers to dictate policy to him?

is he going to permit workers to tell him how to run his business?

He may consult with them and draw upon their knowledge and experience, but he will not be dictated to by them.

It is no different in the management of any country.

Those who own the economy will dictate policy.

The elected representatives will find ways to satisfy those who own the economy, and those who fuel the economy, the workers.

The CEO, or president, or prime minister will execute the will of those behind him. A CEO is a Chief Executive Officer. He executes or carries out orders, decisions, policy. He always has to answer to those behind him , and he is never above the law.

Sometimes the decisions taken by the parliament, or the CEO will be less than wise, but you can be assured that these decisions are always taken with the objective of keeping the community that they are employed to manage in a state of order, and able to maintain the economy.

When we are told that we can no longer own something, or do something you can be certain that the decision to make this restriction has not been lightly taken but it has been taken with the overall objective of maintaining the state of order within a country, society, or community.This state of order is essential to allow the ongoing function of the economy, the continued sustenance of the community, and to provide suitable conditions for the continuation of the human race.

So, when you are told that you can no longer carry a pocket knife in a public place without good and legal reason, you can console yourself with the thought that you are aiding the continuation of the history of mankind.

When you are no longer allowed to own, much less display that implement of death, a sword, you can rest assured that the economy will blossom because of your sacrifice.

You may not be able to alter the way the owner, the board, or the CEO wants to do things, but you can alter your own approach to achieving your own ends.