IVORY FOR POMMEL

[tanaruz]

Hello,

This is supposed to be a sperm whale tooth. Purchased from a seller who informed us that it came from tawi-tawi, from way way back.

My plan, if indeed this is sperm whale tooth, is to use it as a pommel to an old barung or kris (which has no pommel).

I've done some reading and this specimen conforms (in my unexpert opinion) to ivory. The ff are some things I have read on ivory's characteristics:

a) ivory always has parallel grain, like rings on a tree or crosshatch pattern called Schreger lines. On closer inspection, this tooth has both parallel and crosshatch patters.

b) in contrast to bone, ivory has a smooth feel.

Thanks in advance for you inputs.

Regards

Yves

[thomas hauschild]

Please show a pic of the root-hole. This will make it a little bit more clear.

[thomas hauschild]

Sperm whale real and fake/resin

[thomas hauschild]

Walrus real and fake/resin

[tanaruz]

Hello,

Many thanks for the initial info. Here are some more pics.

Thanks in advace.

Yves

[mariusgmioc]

Very difficult to judge from photos alone, but from what I see, it looks like resin.

You can easily test it ether trying to burn a tiny piece of it or by simply polishing it and you'll see how it behaves. If it melts and smells like plastic is resin, if it smells like "dentist" it is ivory.

[xasterix]

Very difficult to judge from photos alone, but from what I see, it looks like resin.

You can easily test it ether trying to burn a tiny piece of it or by simply polishing it and you'll see how it behaves. If it melts and smells like plastic is resin, if it smells like "dentist" it is ivory.

Greetings sir Marius, this thread has aroused my interest. Can you assess my piece as well? I'll try to sand off a portion of the break in the pommel and burn it for verificiation, but for the meantime here's a picture.

[tanaruz]

Very difficult to judge from photos alone, but from what I see, it looks like resin.

You can easily test it ether trying to burn a tiny piece of it or by simply polishing it and you'll see how it behaves. If it melts and smells like plastic is resin, if it smells like "dentist" it is ivory.

Hi Sir,

Can you expound on the statement 'how it behaves'? what would be best to use for polishing?

Thanks

Yves

[mariusgmioc]

How it behaves: if it melts is plastic; if it smells like "dentist" is ivory.

For polishing you can use sandpaper, 600-800 grit and give it a few rapid rubs. If it is ivory will smell like "dentist."
For final shiny polish you need to go to higher grit (3000-7000).

Greetings sir Marius, this thread has aroused my interest. Can you assess my piece as well? I'll try to sand off a portion of the break in the pommel and burn it for verificiation, but for the meantime here's a picture.

One photo from the side is not enough. You should post more close-up photos. Generally this type of hilts are made from elephant ivory. You should check for the Schreger lines.

I do not advise polishing/fire testing any finished product. For a raw piece of material is another story.

[xasterix]

How it behaves: if it melts is plastic; if it smells like "dentist" is ivory.

For polishing you can use sandpaper, 600-800 grit and give it a few rapid rubs. If it is ivory will smell like "dentist."
For final shiny polish you need to go to higher grit (3000-7000).



One photo from the side is not enough. You should post more close-up photos. Generally this type of hilts are made from elephant ivory. You should check for the Schreger lines.

I do not advise polishing/fire testing any finished product. For a raw piece of material is another story.

Hullo, here are more pics of the pommel.

[Rafngard]

Hullo, here are more pics of the pommel.

I'm sure members with more experience than I will chime in, but to my eye it looks like elephant ivory, and overall, a really beautiful specimen.

[xasterix]

I'm sure members with more experience than I will chime in, but to my eye it looks like elephant ivory, and overall, a really beautiful specimen.

Thanks Leif! Additionally, if it's not much of a hassle, may I ask everyone to assess my friend's piece, of similar build as mine.

[tanaruz]

Very difficult to judge from photos alone, but from what I see, it looks like resin.

You can easily test it ether trying to burn a tiny piece of it or by simply polishing it and you'll see how it behaves. If it melts and smells like plastic is resin, if it smells like "dentist" it is ivory.

Hi,

Did some 'polishing'- and it smells like burned 'enamel.' must be the 'dentist' smell.

I did contact an expert on this things. Sent her some pictures. Initially, there's the presence of Schreger lines + crosshatch pattern on the tooth.

And I was advised to bring the item to her for a visual verification.

Thanks and regards,

Yves

[tanaruz]

Hi again,

forgot to include another test which I did (upon the instruction of the jeweller).

I got a needle, had it red hot on the fire and tried to pierce the tooth. - and voila, it did not went into the tooth.

Best

Yves

[mariusgmioc]

The geometry of the cracks is consistent with ivory.

From all I know there are some ivorine resins that crack, but without round/circular cracks. Round/circular cracks are specific to ivory as they follow the growth rings.

[xasterix]

The geometry of the cracks is consistent with ivory.

From all I know there are some ivorine resins that crack, but without round/circular cracks. Round/circular cracks are specific to ivory as they follow the growth rings.

Thanks very much sir!

[Sajen]

Very difficult to judge from photos alone, but from what I see, it looks like resin.

Hi Marius,

Disagree again with you, soory! ;) :D The sperm whale tooth look real to my eyes but agree with you that's difficult to judge from a picture alone.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I did contact an expert on this things. Sent her some pictures. Initially, there's the presence of Schreger lines + crosshatch pattern on the tooth.

And I was advised to bring the item to her for a visual verification.

Hi Yves,

Sperm whale tooth shows no Schreger lines so far I know, only elephant ivory shows this lines.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hullo, here are more pics of the pommel.

Elephant ivory!

[Sajen]

Thanks Leif! Additionally, if it's not much of a hassle, may I ask everyone to assess my friend's piece, of similar build as mine.

Also elephant ivory.

[xasterix]

Also elephant ivory.

Dear Detlef:

Thanks very much for the assessment!

[xasterix]

Here are other samples, from another friend's collection. The one with the reddish hilt intrigues me, as it's a standout from the other ivory-looking samples. One of the hilts is also unique, having a string of hawk bells tied from the base of the pommel up to the gangya as a makeshift guard.

TIA for anyone who'll assess! Much appreciated.

[Battara]

Xasterix, the Maguindanao pommel looks like aged Mother-of-Pearl in silver frames to me. I have seen it darken like this.

The other pommels are ivory. The red coloration is the result of the presence of sulfur which oxidizes the ivory from red to a dark reddish brown or a honey-is brown.

I find the T'boli bells interesting.

[xasterix]

Xasterix, the Maguindanao pommel looks like aged Mother-of-Pearl in silver frames to me. I have seen it darken like this.

The other pommels are ivory. The red coloration is the result of the presence of sulfur which oxidizes the ivory from red to a dark reddish brown or a honey-is brown.

I find the T'boli bells interesting.

Thanks sir! Here are "raw" pre-restoration pics of the hawkbell-guard kris.

[LJ]

A non-destructive test is to use an ultra-violet light (I bought one of these fairly cheaply at a local shop that sells electronics). Ivory has a distinctive blue sheen, which resin does not have: I recommend a bit of practice, shining the lamp on plastic, bone, etc. so you can see the effect.

Incidentally, horn shines light brown when lit by ultra-violet light. Which is a useful test if you can't decide whether something is made from horn or wood.

[Rafngard]

You should definitely take Sajen's word over mine on everything!

[Rafngard]

Thanks sir! Here are "raw" pre-restoration pics of the hawkbell-guard kris.


That is a really interesting piece. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

[Battara]

This again proves a lot of trade between Philippine groups. Fascinating isn't it?

[xasterix]

Hello everyone...would like to ask your opinions on this pommel. I'm still in the process of restoring the rest of the kris, but I suspect this is ivory. Would appreciate your inputs, thanks!

[Athanase]

It's clearly Elephant ivory. Very nice patina.

[Sajen]

Agree!

[xasterix]

Thanks very much gentlemen =)

[jokrho]

Good day Gentlemen. Would like to ascertain as well if these two hilts are ivory, and if so, whether it be of marine (whale, manatee) or terrestrial (elephant, hippo) origin. Thanks in advance.

Job A.

[David]

It's clearly Elephant ivory. Very nice patina.

Agreed. This is very clearly elephant ivory and the Schreger lines are quite evident.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, only elephant ivory displays Schreger lines.
Technically speaking i don't believe sperm whale tooth is actually consider "ivory", though for general purposes it is often declared as "marine ivory" and displays many of the qualities of ivory.

[Will M]

This link will clear any confusion and shows how to tell different ivory types and imitations.

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/pub/E-Ivory-guide.pdf

[Athanase]

Good day Gentlemen. Would like to ascertain as well if these two hilts are ivory, and if so, whether it be of marine (whale, manatee) or terrestrial (elephant, hippo) origin. Thanks in advance.

Job A.

The first is elephante ivory. The second isn't elephant, maybe Dugong or Spermwhale or walrus.

[Ren Ren]

This link will clear any confusion and shows how to tell different ivory types and imitations.

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/pub/E-Ivory-guide.pdf
Thank you! This is useful information.

[jokrho]

The first is elephante ivory. The second isn't elephant, maybe Dugong or Spermwhale or walrus.


Thank you very much.

[jokrho]

This link will clear any confusion and shows how to tell different ivory types and imitations.

https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/pub/E-Ivory-guide.pdf

Cool! Thanks for this.

[xasterix]

Greetings everyone. Just wondering if someone can help identify this ivory type on a kalis pomel. Thanks very much!

[Sajen]

Hello Xas,

Looks like some sort of marine ivory. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[xasterix]

Hello Xas,

Looks like some sort of marine ivory. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks very much Detlef!