Inlaid Kris and Punang

[cannonmn]

Why posting this? I was discussing kris etc. on another board and a person from Indonesia mentioned he'd never seen any. Here are two weapons which both came from the Philippines. The short one, a punang?, came back with my dad in 1945, and I think I got the long one, the kris, in Manila in 1973.

I'd like to know if southeast Asian edged weapons inlaid with various metals are unique to the Philippines, or what. The punang (dagger) has brass and copper inlaid into grooves in the blade. The kris has a serpant or dragon-like recessed shape, the "scales" of which are inlaid with a silver-colored metal.

Thanks in advance!

[Mark]

Brass and copper inlay is fairly common in continental Southeast Asia, though not usually as elaborate as what you have on your kris. It is common to see a section along the spine that is inlaid with a brass or copper slug (sometimes both, see below), and inlaid writing is also fairly common. Elaborate decorative designs are more often incised or in koftgari, I think.

A dha with brass & copper slugs in the spine:
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Images/Image5.jpg

A dha with inlaid writing on the spine, and also koftgari:
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Images/Image344.jpg

This is the most beautiful inlay I have seen on a dha blade (this one belongs to John "RhysMichael"):
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v96/RhysMicheal/3Dha_009.jpg

Here is an inlaid date on one of Andrew's:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/cha-con/336e9721.jpg

[nechesh]

Nice work on the kris. It looks like a mid-20thC piece to me, but of a higher standartd than most from this period.
The knife is known as a gunong AFAIK. Sometimes called a punal, but if i am not mistaken that is a Spanish, and therefore less indiginous term. Nice work on that as well. :)

[cannonmn]

Thanks for taking the time to post the very interesting pictures. They answer the question so much better than just words.

[nechesh]

You know, the more i look at the pics of the kris the more it looks like there just might be a really well fitted seperate gangya on it, in which case i might change my age assessment. Is it a seperate piece? I have one that for years i thought was one piece until i etched it one day and found the tight seem. :)

[cannonmn]

No the steel blade seems to be all one piece. The serpent thing was carved into the basic blade. I don't see any way it could be a separate piece when I look at both ends of the serpent. The ends simply merge smoothly into the steel of the blade with no change in appearance.

Anyway, when I looked at it all under magnification, it sure looked antique to me. There are so many different metals and materials in it, the handle, etc, and they all look like they should, to me anyway, if antique.

[Wayan]

This kris from the Philippines is quite different from its Indonesian counterparts. Of immediate note is that the blade maintains the same width the entire length of the blade. As the kris is predominately a stabbing weapon, that seems rather impractical and the unnecessary weight would add additional strain on the tang. Aesthetically, the handle almost appears ridiculous in concert with its blade, or way out of balance. Another noticeable difference is that there does not seem to be any pamor worked into the iron. A final observation is that the formation of the luk is not like the smooth flow seen in Indonesian kris, in fact the top of the curves almost appear to be pointed. .

This is the first I have seen a kris from the Philippines, so these are just my initial observations, and they are not intended to “knock” or criticize. Thanks for posting those photos!

[cannonmn]

I'm pretty sure that in the Philippines, the kris, at least of the type I posted, was used as a side-cutting or slashing weapon primarily. The blades are rather thick in the middle, and heavy, and have lots of momentum if they are swung. The US Army found this out to their dismay ca. 1900. It is pretty well documented that the Moros armed with these would swing them to strike the soldiers between the neck and shoulder, and many of those deep wounds were mortal. The Filipino, or Moro kris would not be too efficient for stabbing due to relatively blunt end, but the blade was sharpened all around so they could do that also.

[MABAGANI]

try stabbing with a rounded or pointed sharp moro kris straight or wavy, they are effective for cutting or thrusting...

[nechesh]

Wayan, as has been pointeed out to you, kris from the Philippines, while related to the Indonesian keris, are quite a dfferent animal. I can assure you that in full on combat it is a far superior weapon to it's smaller stabbing cousin. Primarily a slashing and chopping weapon, it is generally razor sharp and can also stab as Mabagani points (no pun intended :) ) out. They are usually rather well balanced blades as well. In hand i think perhaps your thoughts on the proportions and weigh might change.
Cannonmn, it has been generally accepted that kris without a seperate gangya are usually post-1930s blades. There are, of course, exceptions to that. A 1930s blade would be cosidered antique by many, being over 70 years old. I'm still not convinced yet that yours is quite that old. The luks of the blade seem somewhat pointed, another indicator of a younger blade. Still it appears to be a well made blade, not something made for the export market. Are the bands on the sheathy aluminium?
Your gunong appears to be missing it's guard. Still a nice example. I like the inlay. :)

[Spunjer]

cannonmn,

here's a kris similar to yours:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6636328889&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

you didn't mentioned the size, but i bet the blade is around 27" no?


wayan,

think of the moro kris as an indo keris on some serious steroids and growth hormones ;)

[cannonmn]

Yes the measurements of mine are same as Snyder's on Ebay (btw he is longtime acquaintence.) So mine is 27 in. tip to center of handle, and guard is 6.5 in. wide. You'd almost think his and mine were by the same maker? Thanks for finding another like mine.

The two whitish bands shown on the scabbard I have are actually masking tape put on in recent years to keep scabbard from falling apart. A very thin brass band remains alongside one of the tape windings.

[Wayan]

Well, this is all interesting. I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade.

Thinking of an Indonesian kris on “steroids or growth hormones” is not something I care to envision. In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it, and its powers are not defined by drugs or hormones.

In Indonesia, a kris is a work of art. Many Indonesians would say it is the ultimate work of art, and given the incredibly beautiful sarongs, or sheaths that have been made here, wrought with silver or gold, and adorned with Kalimantan diamonds, rubies and sapphires from India, combined with equally outrageous hilts, it’s fairly evident that the extent of admiration we have here in Indonesia for our kris pusaka transcends thinking of our kris as mere weapons.

For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body. I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection. A kris without perfect grace and elegance is merely a dead piece of iron.

[Wayan]

To illustrate my point, about Indonesian kris, or in this case, Balinese kris, as being works of art, I offer the two links below....(too large, and too much time to upload).

Both kris are late 18th, or early 19th century, and both are in their original sarongs as offered to me at the time I acquired them. The first kris is in its sarong kampung, or normal sarong. Not uncommonly, fine Balinese kris may have two, or even three various sarongs, (much like the men who own them) suitable for the occasion where kris bearing is essential.

The second kris is of the same age, and seen in its sarong Pura, a more formal presentation, reflecting the caste, or stature of its Balinese owner.

Their sarong aside, it is the blade, the kris itself, that merits discussion. While neither of these blades are masterpieces, each of them exhibit the fine and utterly balanced design that goes into all Indonesian Empu made kris. I think it is self evident, or at least I hope it is, that both kris blades are flawless in their execution and they present a timeless image of perfection, which is only highlighted by their brilliant nickel pamor.

Understandably, I am of course biased in my opinions regarding Balinese made kris, which are in general more substantial than the kris made in Java, Sulawesi, or other parts of Indonesia. Aside from having our Empu and pande, directly descended from the Majapahit, only here in Bali does the restriction of human figures not apply to the arts, (as we are Hindu), thus the variety of our hilts is endless.

http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/kris17.jpg


http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg

[kai]

Hello Wayan,

Welcome to the forum!

Please be careful since keris/kris threads are somewhat notorious to get a little quarrelsome once in a while... ;) :D

On this forum we follow the convention of distinguishing between the "kris" (aka keris sundang) from the southern Philippines (but also found across Borneo, Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula) and the "keris" (i.e. the more traditional styles mainly found in Malaya, Sumatra, Jawa and Bali/Lombok (also Borneo, southern Thailand, etc.).


I would like to see a kris from the Philippines without its hilt, in order to judge the size of the tang in relation to the blade.
The kris is a really different animal which also affects the usual tang construction - here's a thread with pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243

In Indonesia, and particularly in Bali, the kris is regarded as pusaka, a revered work of the gifted Empu who wrought it...

... For a man in Indonesia, his kris is his soul, and a direct extension of his body.
I can assure you that it's exactly the same cultural tradition in the southern Philippines! :)


I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.
Well, keris sundang are not exactly unknown in Indonesia/Malaysia... ;)

I'd also stipulate that aesthetics are bound to differ from one ethnic/cultural group to another so we need to be careful with our own preferences. Among the different keris styles I also see quite large differences (i.e. Malay/Sumatran/Bugis keris vs. Jawa vs. Bali/Lombok, keris panjang and many other keris styles which may appear odd to outsiders!).

[Rick]

No the steel blade seems to be all one piece. The serpent thing was carved into the basic blade. I don't see any way it could be a separate piece when I look at both ends of the serpent. The ends simply merge smoothly into the steel of the blade with no change in appearance.

Anyway, when I looked at it all under magnification, it sure looked antique to me. There are so many different metals and materials in it, the handle, etc, and they all look like they should, to me anyway, if antique.

Hi cannonmn ,

What nechesh meant by a separate piece was this area pictured below . :)

[Spunjer]

oh boy! this looks like it's gonna be a long thread...


I can assure any reader of this forum that no serious Indonesian collector of kris would even pass a thought of including a kris such as this Philippine kris in their collection.

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol. :rolleyes:

[nechesh]

Hi Wayan,
I would second Kai's cautious words here. It seems you don't really know enough about Moro kris to be passing such judgements. Pehaps you should spent some time with the search function of this forum and check out the level of skill and artistry that can be found in the Moro kris before making any further comments. My own personal tastes run more towards the Indonesian keris myself and i have a very strong affection for Bali blades in particular. But i also have 3 Moro blades in my collection which i quite enjoy and the quality of their workmanship is hardly inferior. Moro blades do tend to be far more functional and were used as actual weapons of war, unlike most Indo keris. But their owners also saw them as having a powerful mystical/magickal side. This is warrior magick. I wouldn't assign a better or worse title to it. I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples cultures. The Moro (and people who collect their weapons) take their kris very seriously. It is a powerful weapon both practically and spiritually, though perhaps not in the same complex and variant modes as the Indo keris. They don't use complex pamor patterns, but there is a beauty to the pure functional form of them. AS to your question about the tang, the Moro kris tang is rectangular, unlike the round Indo ones. The blade is also additionally secured by one or two stirrups called baca-baca. I can assure you there is NOTHING fragile about this construction and the tang is not likely to bend under the fiercest of combat situations.
Very nice keris that you linked to. Neither, however, is "flawless in their execution". The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me.
BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the penisula areas. :)

[nechesh]

nechesh et al, unless you guys are a serious keris collector, you must give up all your moro krises, lol. :rolleyes:

To paraphrase Charton Heston,"You'll have to pry them out of my cold dead hands!!!" :D

[Rick]

This is posted so many times here that I'm going to save bandwidth and hot link it . Moro Kris :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/MS.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/MS1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/joeconrad/PAMOR.jpg

Oh and Spunjer , no way Man . :p

[Wayan]

In response to Kai:

Why am I being told to “be careful” when discussing the kris of my homeland? And why is this said by someone who lives in Germany? Of course any discussion of kris can be charged. You should hear me argue with my Islamic brothers from Java! They actually think the kris was “invented” within Islam. They also think the same of batik, wayan kulit, topeng, and gamelon, just to mention a few. Silly boys...but when they come to Bali, they are quiet.

Many thanks for the link to see one of these Philippine kris in the buff, so to speak. The tang on them appears to be rectangular, as opposed to circular. But, the tang, in relation to the blade, in width and length makes it impossible for me to envision this blade as an effective slashing weapon. The tang, on the example you linked seems to me to be way too small in relation to a wide, and clumsy blade to defy simple laws of physics. Unless the tang on that blade was forged again into an iron, or bronze hilt, I think simple physics....the stress on the tang, would render it rather useless as a slashing weapon.

On this forum, you can follow whatever convention you desire in the discussion of kris. I have no problem with that. When I post about kris, I will make it very clear if my post is about a Balinese kris, a Javanese kris, a Bugis kris from Sulawesi...whatever.

Regarding aesthetics, they are indeed personal, and I agree they vary greatly from one to another. If a participant on this forum is not allowed to offer their aesthetics, which are obviously open to discussion, and rejection by other forum members, then count me out of here, right now. My personal style is not to walk on egg shells, nor will I bow to
anyone except my priests and my elders. I’m not looking for a fight, but I have not written anything here that deserves a caution.

It’s also odd that you did not comment on either of the average Balinese kris I linked in my last post. I offered those photos only as an aesthetic comparison to the Philippine kris which I find to be clumsy, without grace, and without elegance. But hey! That’s only my opinion!

[Flavio]

Hey Rick, this is a VERY BEAUTY!!!!!!! WOOOW :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Wayan]

In reply to “Nechesh”


You write: “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

Where the hell did I do that? My comments ONLY addressed the blade, as originally posted and that is it!

Who the hell are you to accuse me of “disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.” I never do that, never have, and surely I don’t like being falsely accused of doing so. An apology is warranted, AND expected!

[Rick]

Wayan , please read the posting rules found at the top of the discussion list .
We always aim to be polite and non confrontational here ; this is absolutely *not* a 'no holds barred' forum and decorum and politeness must be maintained .

A cautionary word does not an insult make . :)

By the way I like very much this piece that you show :
http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/Kris31.jpg
What god or raksassa does the ukiran represent ?
Do they make blawong to fit Bali kerisses ; I ask because the one you show dwarfs the Jawa blawong it is in . :)

Rick

[MABAGANI]

peoples of keris/kris cultures share common heritages in their weaopnry as well as in music, dress, language, religion, etc...so i will refrain from degrading opinions, we're like distant cousins so to speak
the keris and kris evolved differently around the Mindanao and Sulu Sultanates because their warriors continued fighting foreign invasion over three centuries
being open about keris and kris is like a family gathering...bring on the food fight. lolz

[Wayan]

And, as a follow up to “Nechesh” who wrote the following:

“The hilt on the second one is exquisite though. Looks like recent work to me.
BTW, you will also find figurative hilts from Java, Madura and Sumatra and the so-called "kingfisher" hilts from the peninsula areas.”

The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. When you make generic comments like, “looks like recent work to me” is it not too much to ask that you provide specific reasons for your declaration? If you have some particular expertise, then isn’t it fair to document your comments?

By figurative hilts, I refer to hilts that are clearly of human personage which is forbidden in Islam. Good luck finding a hilt from Java, Madura, or Sumatra carved as Bayu, Anak Raja, Wishnu....or just a simple half naked lady!

[themorningstar]

the agung is ringing....

[MABAGANI]

sundangs a shaking...

[nechesh]

Sorry Wayan, but you'll get no apology from me. Perhaps disrespectful was too harsh a word, but your whole attitude in this matter is completely dismissive. This thread is about two MORO weapons, a kris and a gunong, yet you find it necessarry to post here about how superior the Balinese keris is to Moro Weapons. Well, firstly, it's apples and oranges. You can't really compare the two. But it is not the subject line of this thread anyway.
You actually DO show disrespect for a few of us "serious" collectors of Indonesian keris who DO include Moro kris in our collections. I can assure you i am a very serious collector and student. As i stated, my preference is firmly in the Indo camp, which is why i only have 3 Moro kris and about 3 dozen Indo keris. But please don't insult me by implying that i am not a "serious" collector because of this.
You seem to know as little about physics as you do about Moro kris. You should probably skip the science and just look at the history. A Moro warrior armed with a kris was once considered the most fiercesome opponent of the U.S. Marine Corp. and there are many reports of soldiers nearly cleaved in two by a wound from a kris. So physics be damned i guess. :rolleyes:
Bottom line is that you are hi-jacking this thread and turning it into a debate about the superiority the Bali keris. This thread should be about the weapons presented. If you use the search function you will no doubt find many threads on Indo keris and specifically Bali keris and i also encourage you to start new threads on these subjects. I will gladly join inn the discussion there and look forward to the occasion. I am sure that you have a lot to offer this forum.

[nechesh]

By figurative hilts, I refer to hilts that are clearly of human personage which is forbidden in Islam. Good luck finding a hilt from Java, Madura, or Sumatra carved as Bayu, Anak Raja, Wishnu....or just a simple half naked lady!

These are not "human" figures, they are gods. The raksasa is quite a common figure on Javanese and Madurese hilts. Give me time and i will dig up some Sumatran examples.
I meant no disrespect in my comment on the age of your Bali hilt. This quality of workmanship can STILL be found in Bali and this hilt looks rather pristine. That's a good thing i think. I stand corrected by your provenence. :)

[Wayan]

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.

[Wayan]

"These are not "human" figures, they are gods."

Well, golly gee....tell a Hindu something he doesn't know! Of course they are Gods! Siva, Dewi Tara, Dewi Sri, Wishnu....ALL these Gods are rendered in human form! BUT! Not anywhere in Indonesia after the 17th century except in Bali, Lombok (among the Balinese Hindu population) and a few other pockets where the Majapahit eventually fled in the 16th century.

And just for accuracy, in Bali anyway, raksasa is NOT a God! Raksasa is a demon figure.

[Andrew]

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.


I disagree. It is clearly necessary for the forum rules to be pointed out to you. I suggest you read the sticky thread posted at the top of the main forum. It may be found here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

3. FLAMES, INSULTS, BIGOTRY & THREATS

Flames or insults are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.

.......

This is an international discussion group, a fact that the Staff is particularly proud of. Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (e.g., culture, race, religion, national origin, etc.) are never appropriate and will not be allowed. Please keep in mind that, while communications on the forum are to be conducted in English, many members are not communicating in their native language, and misunderstandings can occur. The forum is home to members from varied nations and cultures, so it is important to remember that how you say something is often as important as what you say.



In the interim, let's everyone calm down.

[Rick]

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.



I'm sorry that you wish to leave Wayan , I really am . :(

I cannot speak for Nechesh ; I suggest you discuss your issue with his statements with him via PM . ASCII can be very hard to interpret .

Pointing out the punctuation or spelling mistakes of other's posts however is considered in poor taste on any discussion forum .

I think that the issue here may be that some members may feel that you possibly may not realise the depth of accumulated knowledge in this forum ; ergo the request/s for you to use the search function .

No one here is trying to pick a fight with you .
There are no dues to pay .

Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin .
I would still like to know who the character represented by the ukiran carving is .

Rick

[Battara]

Wayan, I do think that learning more about Moro kris would be helpful. I do have a Balinese kris with an ivory Ravana hilt that I have made attempts at restoration similar to one of your wonderful pieces. I enjoy Balinese as my favorite keris outside the Philippines. My main area of collecting is PI/Moro and there is grace and beauty to be found in these pieces as well. Just take a look at my avatar - a swaasa/ivory/silver hilt. I'm sure you did not mean any offense by your comments, though your style did come off to me as a little gruff. Perhaps we could learn more from each other since I favor Balinese keris when discussing Indonesian pieces (Bugis royal keris are second for me).

Here is a wonderful example of a Moro kris with silver and gold:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=59

[Wayan]

Rick, you wrote, “Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin.”

I love learning something new every day, but I never heard the term “blawong” nor does the term appear in my bahasa Indonesia dictionary.

As for this wall mount for a kris being Javanese, that is most interesting, as in fact it was personally carved by a very Bali Balinese, Pande Retug, who serious Indonesian kris collectors will immediately recognize his name. He carved two of these for me some four years ago, and only because I asked. You can caulk that up to just another “Asian thingy.”

Motifs Java, and motifs Bali are very often confused and misunderstood. These misconceptions and inaccuracies have even made their way into Western published books, so now, here in Bali, we are often against the wall trying to change what all too often is considered as “gospel.”

In the end, so long as we keep our heads clear, it doesn’t really matter what “Urban Legends” are written about Bali. Bali belongs to the Balinese, and clearly, the Gods see that “as a good thing.”

Finally, you wrote, “ASCII can be very hard to interpret.” Indeed. And for me, impossible, as I have no clue what ASCII is.

[Wayan]

Battara, thank you for your kind post. I admitted, and I will admit again, that I know nothing about Philippine kris, and my previous comments, before seeing Rick’s kris, were all related to the first kris that was posted here.

I sure got into a huge jar of sambal, (or what in Bali is called bumbu), just saying what my eye told me about that one!

I live in Bali, and Bali is my home. I am only in love with Balinese kris, as they are what I understand and know the most. I have some Javanese kris, but only a few, and they are from the Majapahit era, dating from the 15th century. Two of them are excavated pieces, and if I can remain a member here, I will eventually post them. So, once again, many thanks for your thoughtful post, which was clearly well thought out, and sensitive

[Rick]

Rick, you wrote, “Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin.”

I love learning something new every day, but I never heard the term “blawong” nor does the term appear in my bahasa Indonesia dictionary.

As for this wall mount for a kris being Javanese, that is most interesting, as in fact it was personally carved by a very Bali Balinese, Pande Retug, who serious Indonesian kris collectors will immediately recognize his name. He carved two of these for me some four years ago, and only because I asked. You can caulk that up to just another “Asian thingy.”

Motifs Java, and motifs Bali are very often confused and misunderstood. These misconceptions and inaccuracies have even made their way into Western published books, so now, here in Bali, we are often against the wall trying to change what all too often is considered as “gospel.”

In the end, so long as we keep our heads clear, it doesn’t really matter what “Urban Legends” are written about Bali. Bali belongs to the Balinese, and clearly, the Gods see that “as a good thing.”

Finally, you wrote, “ASCII can be very hard to interpret.” Indeed. And for me, impossible, as I have no clue what ASCII is.

Adios . :)

[Ki Jayamalelo]

Hello Wayan,

welcome to the Forum, we are glad to have some from the motherland of keris and hope to learn from you.
By the way I would like to ask you to share an enlarged picture of your avatar.

KJ

[Wayan]

KJ, many thanks for your warm welcome, and how can I deny your request? It takes forever for me to upload, or download pictures, so, as this has already been uploaded to my hosting site, you need only to go here:

http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/M-385a.jpg

[Wayan]

Ma'af, ma'af, I forgot to explain that you will likely need to right click your mouse, or pad to enlarge to full screen.

[nechesh]

"These are not "human" figures, they are gods."

Well, golly gee....tell a Hindu something he doesn't know! Of course they are Gods! Siva, Dewi Tara, Dewi Sri, Wishnu....ALL these Gods are rendered in human form! BUT! Not anywhere in Indonesia after the 17th century except in Bali, Lombok (among the Balinese Hindu population) and a few other pockets where the Majapahit eventually fled in the 16th century.

And just for accuracy, in Bali anyway, raksasa is NOT a God! Raksasa is a demon figure.

Well Wayan, if you go back and reread my post i didn't say that raksasa was a god. I am as aware of his demon status as you are that the others ARE gods. But like the gods that are depicted, raksasa is also in human form and is quite prevailent in Java, even past the 17thC. Perhaps the laws of Islam aren't so cut-and-dry as as you believe. Obviously these hilts exist, i own at least a couple of them. Maybe you need to re-think this belief of yours? :)

[nechesh]

BTW, thanks for correcting my grammer. Your English is impecible. Where did you study? Hopefully you understand it as well as you write it and we will have no misunderstandings between us? :)
Your photography is also pretty good. These pictures remind me of those by an ebay dealer i once knew of.
Actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word. I think it might be Javanese (as in the language). If you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised. This holder is far too small for MOST Bali keris and yours looks very out of proportion in it, don't you think? It is my understanding that these blawongs are fairly specific to Javanese culture, though i would not be surprised in the least if some Balinese carvers were presently carving them. They are highly favored in villages for special talismanic keris.

[QUOTE=Wayan]
The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. [QUOTE]

Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.

[Wayan]

OK “Cincinnati” you want to have some fun? That’s fine by me. I’m not taking any of this discussion personally, and I sure hope you’re not. We can have a little banter, suffer some slings and arrows, and convince the forum Gods that we have no hard feelings, nor are we breaking the Leave it to Beaver or Martha Stewart, “it’s a good thing” rules.

On to business. If you want to believe that Raksasa is human in form, than more power to you, but don’t come to Bali and try to convince a Balinese of that. On the other hand, your efforts to do so could be very amusing to many of us.

You also write, “perhaps the laws of Islam aren't so cut-and-dry as as you believe.”

Well, I have to chuckle at that too! Although I am not Muslim, I do live in the most populated Islamic country in the world...but, hey...what do I know about Islam compared to someone from Cincinnati?

Since you brought up my English, and thanked me for a grammar correction, may I again make another point? You wrote, “actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word.” The term, “bahasa word” is meaningless. Bahasa only means language, as in bahasa Indonesia....the Indonesian language, etc.

You also write, “if you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised.” What can I say? Slap in some old tapes of Gomer Pyle and follow along with me....”surprise, surprise, surprise.” YES, Pande Retug carved two of these just for me.

I guess what has got me by the short hairs the most is this:

“Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.”

Why? Apa? Hello? It’s not like I’m posting naked photos of his daughter! What in the world are you getting at with that? And anyway, it's my kris now, not his.

[Andrew]

Unfortunately, this thread is now closed. Feel free to take this delightful exchange to private emails.

Civility is required. If you are incapable of civility, you are not welcome here.




Cannonmn, if you like, please start another thread about your weapons.