Do you think this is a genuine 1600 AD Knight's sword??

[katana]

Recently finished......strange that the appraised value was $20000 and the seller was prepared to sell for less than a tenth of that figure......I hear alarm bells ringing...(in my head) ;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6637065295&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

What do you think..........

[S.Al-Anizi]

I honestly believe that this is a knightly sword, really nice sword too. Would love to see more of those on ebay instead of those damn chinese katanas. As for the selling price, its a shame, if I had the money, which I certainly dont, I would buy it at double the price set by the seller. Really beautiful sword.

[Michael Blalock]

This is a very controversial seller, aka EFTIS. He has had a number of miraculous medieval and viking swords for sale, all reported to have been excavated. By the way, here is another remarkable Viking Sword:

Ebay 7422232122

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7422232122&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[katana]

This is a very controversial seller, aka EFTIS. He has had a number of miraculous medieval and viking swords for sale, all reported to have been excavated. By the way, here is another remarkable Viking Sword:

Ebay 7422232122

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7422232122&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1


:D :D :D :D Vikings on Camels... :D :D :D I thought camels are know as 'ships of the desert'.......must have mis-heard.....it obviously must be 'longships of the desert'........ :rolleyes:

[S.Al-Anizi]

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-INLAID-KNIGHTs-SWORD-1300-AD-N-RES_W0QQitemZ6632808519QQcategoryZ1552QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIECE-Decorated-Viking-Sword-950-AD-N-Res_W0QQitemZ7419754493QQcategoryZ73464QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

[katana]

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-INLAID-KNIGHTs-SWORD-1300-AD-N-RES_W0QQitemZ6632808519QQcategoryZ1552QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIECE-Decorated-Viking-Sword-950-AD-N-Res_W0QQitemZ7419754493QQcategoryZ73464QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

Is it me ? but the inlay on both swords looks very new, and seems to follow the contours of the pitted areas........later additions?
I'm still laughing about the Viking Takouba......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7422232122&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Valjhun]

I will not comment that seller. :rolleyes:

However thatone looks verry verry well. Well I guest that it was real, but I think it still overpriced. That is not a 10.000$ crusader era sword, but rather a 17th century piece, slightly bigger than thoose landknechts schwerte. Nice piece, however certainly not a bargain missing its quillons.

Another thing, the crazy appraisals from that seller are taken out from Christie's auction catalogues for the year 2020... :D :D :D

The viking variant of the tokuba is just gorgeus! The essential piece for desert boardings. :) look at the price :D , the rightfull reserve hasn't been met thou :(

[S.Al-Anizi]

Is it me ? but the inlay on both swords looks very new, and seems to follow the contours of the pitted areas........later additions?
I'm still laughing about the Viking Takouba......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7422232122&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.

[katana]

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.

The Crusader sword is described as having copper inlay and the Viking sword has having gold or copper inlay. Seeing that the inlays look very similar in method (not design), colour etc I assumed they were both copper.

It does strike me as odd that these two swords seperated by time and geographical factors, have similarly executed inlays, being sold by the same seller in a short space of time...

[Jeff Pringle]

However, he did have some credible stuff to sell:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-UNIQUE-IN...QcmdZ ViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-MASTERPIE...Qcmd ZViewItem

From the perspective of someone who has studied Viking artifacts pretty closely over the last few years, I'd say 'credible' is a very generous term.

And he's putting a new one up every couple months, even if the stuff was more convincing, that would raise my eyebrow.

;)

[Bill M]

"Very controversial seller!"

Caveat Emptor

[Marc]

We've been many times advised by the moderators to refrain to discuss the dealers and concentrate in the pieces. So, I'll try to do exactly that... but Caveat Emptor, indeed.

This is an European late 17th- early 18th c. sword blade, of the sometimes called "military" type, in contrast with the more slender "civil" types. Probably mounted originally in a Waloon or basket-type hilt, which makes one wonder what the heck does that kind of pommel there. Anyway, the inscription on the blade is the mar of the Giacomo (Gio) Knegt (or Kneght, or even Knetch), an Italian (at least his name seems to hint so) working in the German city of Solingen in that period. He usually signed, indeed, GIO KNEGT / IN SOLINGEN or GIO KNEGT / EN ALEMANIA, with various spelling variations. Many of his blades were aimed to the Spanish market, hence the frequent Spanish version ("EN ALEMANIA" meaning "In Germany") of his signature. I've seen many of his blades mounted in Spanish military M1728-type (what you call "Bilbo"-type) cavalry swords, covering the period mentioned.
All in all, not a bad exemplar by itself. This, of course, completely ignoring the seller's comments about its possible origin.

On a lighter note, well, the market is free, surely enough, but if someone would really be consistently ready to buy these blades for this kind of money, I know quite a few people that wouldn't hesitate a second in dismantling a good part of their collections to supply exemplars... ;)

[katana]

I know quite a few people that wouldn't hesitate a second in dismantling a good part of their collections to supply exemplars... ;)

exemplars............dont you mean Templars :D :D :D ;)

Thanks Marc, I found your post very informative.

[Valjhun]

Katana, you do realise that the inlay is gold, and gold doesnt react with time.


Man, I do not knwo what do you see, but to me it looks as some picasso wicca wannabe has painted thoose symbols recently. That is not gold inlaid. With that ammount of rust, the original gold inlad would be history by now. :)

Mark, thank you verry much for your verry interesting post!

[Lew]

This sword blade is circa 1690-1700 it has very similar marks to the blade on my kaskara? Hey maybe Cromwell carried my kaskara into battle :D I'm rich lol :p




Lew

[katana]

Lew, thats a very nice Kaskara.....

[Michael Blalock]

Not to keep harping on the implausibility of the blade being as old as described, but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

[katana]

but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

It is possible that sediments deposited on the river's bottom, can create a soft layer devoid of oxygen and high in nitrates. If ferrous metal sunk into this layer and was covered up quickly as it sank: it would be possible that the oxidation of the blade would be much slower.

It seems unlikely to be the case with the sword in question though

[Tim Simmons]

It is all in the tang. Take a close look. It seems to have missed any ageing what so ever.

[Tim Simmons]

There is indeed the likelihood that this is a complete fabrication. looking at the tang again, even if it had undergone professional conservation it is as fresh as yesterday. Look at the tang on my tombak, most certainly not 16th century :D :D :D and has been in fruit acid for a week.

[ariel]

I think the blade is genuine ; the pommel is a big question mark; but the tang is new. A true "fusion" sword :D :D :eek:

[RomaRana]

Not to keep harping on the implausibility of the blade being as old as described, but could a ferrous sword have actually been at the bottom of the Danube river for hundreds of years as described and not rust away?

Not that the sword in question, but yes they are.

Medieval swords are frequently found in rivers. The silt deposits protect them and form an airtight barrier but they look nothing like that sword.

Finds have been made in (just a few of the many):
Neuenburg lake- Oakeshott page 74 -Records Of the Medieval Sword
the River Aa- Oakeshott records page 48
River Thames - Oakeshott records 26 and The Archeology of Weapons 136

River swords have a hard brown patina and are often very corroded.

[katana]

Just a possibillity...

I would assume that the handle would have been leather bound wood...on that assumption ..the handle would have been bonded to the tang using some form of resin. If this is the case, after the wood had rotted away.. it would expose the 'resin covered' tang ...which could have protected it from rusting.
I'm not saying that this is true for the sword which started the thread... but could it be possible for other 'drowned' swords???

[katana]

I've only just noticed this on the listing...

'Length of Pommel: 5.5 cm. The Sword is in excellent excavated condition with minimal pitting. The crossbar is missing but the original pommel is present.'

If the pommel is original and still fixed to the tang, the 'crossbar' would be captive between the pommel and blade, so should be present....or am I missing something....

[Valjhun]

The Sword is in excellent excavated condition.

What's that supposed to mean? A piece of iron/steel undergroun for 400 years cannot be in excellent condition in any way.... :D

[Mark]

I think enough has been said about this sword, and I see the thread drifting in an unproductive direction.

If you have information or insight that might help date the blade, please do share this with the forum, but there is no good purpose to speculation, and even less to mockery.

Thank you.

[Jeff D]

Hi All,

My understanding is that GIO KNEGT stands for Johann Knecht a Solingen maker from the early to mid 18th century?

Hope this helps.
Jeff

[Marc]

Jeff, yes, that's him (see my post above, Johann <-> Giovanni /Gio, same name, different versions).

Just some quick clarifications:

Yes, words found underwater can be quite preserved from corrosion if the right conditions are met. For swords, specifically, there's, for example, the archaeological underwater finds of the Lake Neuchâtel in Switzerland that gave name to the whole La Tène period (450-50 BC), dated around the first part of it.

The state of preservation of this blade is consistent with the given date (late 17th- early 18th c.) for such an object preserved indoors under not too harsh conditions.

Goes without saying that this blade is, of course, NOT in excavated condition.

The pommel, although presumably genuine (and probably datable a bit earlier, also), is hardly belivable as original with this blade. The configuration of the tang just does not coincide with the use of the type of hilt that goes with this kind of pommel.

[katana]

I think enough has been said about this sword, and I see the thread drifting in an unproductive direction.

If you have information or insight that might help date the blade, please do share this with the forum, but there is no good purpose to speculation, and even less to mockery.

Thank you.

Point taken Mark.
However, with the increasing number of fraudulent and colourful listings put on eBay, discussions like this can be highly informative.
If the comments and ideas help members in spotting these listings and prevent mistakes being made then I feel its serving a purpose.

[Lee]

However, with the increasing number of fraudulent and colourful listings put on eBay, discussions like this can be highly informative. If the comments and ideas help members in spotting these listings and prevent mistakes being made then I feel its serving a purpose.

The trick, of course, is avoiding implied accusations against sellers who have been so identified. I suspect lack of specialized expertise compounded with wishful thinking is the most common cause of many of the 'colourful' descriptions. However, outright fraud is also entirely too prevalent these days.

I have dabbled in collecting European medieval swords for the last two decades. I have been fortunate to acquire a few genuine ones and have also been taken in by some fakes. I have had the opportunity to handle many more and to converse with collectors far more experienced than myself.

Anyone contemplating collecting European medieval swords these days needs to realize the perils. It is my observation and opinion that the majority of swords of this style in the marketplace today are younger than I am. I am also of the opinion that the fakes are getting more sophisticated and also that they are creeping into and contaminating the best venues. If you aspire to collect these things, see as many genuine examples as possible, never spend significant money without a 'hands-on' examination and, if you have the least suspicion you are in over your head, seek independent expert advice before commiting to a purchase.

[Ian]

Katana -- you have a PM

Ian (two of three)

[Mark]

Point taken Mark.
However, with the increasing number of fraudulent and colourful listings put on eBay, discussions like this can be highly informative.
If the comments and ideas help members in spotting these listings and prevent mistakes being made then I feel its serving a purpose.

You are correct, Katana, which is why the I encouraged people to offer constructive comments about the blade, condition, perhaps warning signs, etc. What should be left out are comments that may be interpreted as being directed to the honesty, integrity, etc. of particular sellers. We are a scholarly forum, not an investigative watchdog.

Speaking from the point of view of a personal collector, I am of two minds regarding pointing out specific ways that a reproduction, aged or not, does not match a genuine article. While it is very helpful in spotting a reproduction and avoiding a costly mistake, it also gives an unscrupulous person desiring to fake an antique exactly the information they need to perfect their products. There is no easy answer to this conflict, but personally I am falling on the side of keeping that sort of information in private communications.

[katana]

[QUOTE=Mark Bowditch] While it is very helpful in spotting a reproduction and avoiding a costly mistake, it also gives an unscrupulous person desiring to fake an antique exactly the information they need to perfect their products. QUOTE]

Excellent observation........one I hadn't considered

[Jeff D]

Jeff, yes, that's him (see my post above, Johann <-> Giovanni /Gio, same name, different versions).




Thanks Marc,

I just want to be clear, as he seems to have started a long lineage of Solingen blade makers.

Jeff

P.S. I have seen a few pictures of these marks on 18th century schiavonas.