Italian dagger 17th century??

[Sajen]

Hello,

The auction house has described it as 17th century dagger, I personally doubt this age a little bit. :shrug: What do you think? Or know! It's is 22,5 cm long.

Thank you in advance for every comment! :)

[mariusgmioc]

Definitely not 17 century.

This is a 19th century dagger. I am also inclined to say it is Spanish but it is more a hunch than educated oppinion.

[Sajen]

Definitely not 17 century.

This is a 19th century dagger.

Thank you Marius, exactly what I thought!

I am also inclined to say it is Spanish but it is more a hunch than educated oppinion.

Could it be French? This was my guess?

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

It could be French but the type of construction, materials and etching on the blade are somehow consistent with 19th century Toledo factory works.

Yet, it is of a rather classic shape that would be very difficult to precisely locate.

On second thoughts, noticing the small size of the dagger, this might be what is called "prostitute dagger." You may Google this term for images and will see some similar ones but also with disputable origins.

But let's hope that some forum colleagues know better! :)

[Sajen]

On second thoughts, noticing the small size of the dagger, this might be what is called "prostitute dagger." You may Google this term for images and will see some similar ones but also with disputable origins.

Hello Marius,

This is exactly what I have had in mind! :) ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[BUCC_Guy]

I thought it was a naval dirk, but that small size would indicate a prostitute’s dagger.

[Sajen]

I thought it was a naval dirk, but that small size would indicate a prostitute’s dagger.

Hello BUCC_Guy,

I am not an expert by naval dirks but can't them similar small? Look for example this beauty which get sold by ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GARTER-DAGGER-KNIFE-DIRK-STILETTO-/143584322605?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=dze2%252BVQCdJOXaz9SUABYHG24o3Y%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 It's with 8,25" (approx. 21 cm) a little bit smaller as the dagger in question. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Hello BUCC_Guy,

I am not an expert by naval dirks but can't them similar small? Look for example this beauty which get sold by ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GARTER-DAGGER-KNIFE-DIRK-STILETTO-/143584322605?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=dze2%252BVQCdJOXaz9SUABYHG24o3Y%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 It's with 8,25" (approx. 21 cm) a little bit smaller as the dagger in question. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

The EBay description says "Garter" dagger/dirk. Garter meaning Strumpfband in German, so again pointing towards "prostitute dagger"...
;)

Dirk is nothing but a longer straight dagger.

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,

The EBay description says "Garter" dagger/dirk. Garter meaning Strumpfband in German, so again pointing towards "prostitute dagger"...
;)

Dirk is nothing but a longer straight dagger.

Hello Marius,

You never should give something to ebay descriptions or auction house descriptions (see for example the description from the auction house for the example in question)! ;) And of course I know what garter dagger mean! :p

Have a look to this older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24840&highlight=naval+dirk

Have special a look to the posted picture from "Small Arms of the Sea Services" by Robert H. Rankin, see attachment. The dagger by the ebay auction was without doubt a naval dirk.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Comparison!

[mariusgmioc]

Very interesting!

I was not aware of this type of small naval dirk.

Thank you Detlef for the explanations. :)

Anyhow, the one in the original posting is significantly different, much more towards a "garter dagger" (sounds better than "prostitute dagger").
;)

[Sajen]

Very interesting!

I was not aware of this type of small naval dirk.

Thank you Detlef for the explanations. :)

You are welcome Marius! :) I have my "knowledge" also only from the given thread. ;) :D



Anyhow, the one in the original posting is significantly different, much more towards a "garter dagger" (sounds better than "prostitute dagger"). ;)

And yes, I agree with you complete. And I like the term "garter dagger" as well a lot more! :cool:

Regards,
Detlef

[David R]

In the UK they are sometimes called "Muff Daggers" as in hidden in a hand muff, the cold weather hand protector.

[Sajen]

In the UK they are sometimes called "Muff Daggers" as in hidden in a hand muff, the cold weather hand protector.

Hello David,

Never heard this term before. But rember that I needed not long ago to explain my son what a "muff" is. ;) Funnily it's the same term in Germany, we call it as well "muff".

Regards,
Detlef

[M ELEY]

Gambler's dirk or prostitute dirk as carried in their garter. I'd say third quarter of the 19th century. I've handled an number of naval dress dirks, but this one strikes me more as a Western-type dagger (many of them were Sheffield-made and sent to the American SW. They fit in nicely with Old West collections). Note this old Cowens auction below. The quillons on the guards of these are typically spherical.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/ivory-handled-dirk-52302

[Sajen]

Gambler's dirk or prostitute dirk as carried in their garter. I'd say third quarter of the 19th century. I've handled an number of naval dress dirks, but this one strikes me more as a Western-type dagger (many of them were Sheffield-made and sent to the American SW. They fit in nicely with Old West collections). Note this old Cowens auction below. The quillons on the guards of these are typically spherical.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/ivory-handled-dirk-52302

Thank you very much! Yes there are some similarities between the both, thank`s for pointing out this!

Regards,
Detlef