Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

[apolaki]

I have a really perplexing dilemma. I gave this keris I posted a long time ago a bath recently in diluted vinegar (originally 5% acidity), but I poured and mixed 2+ cups of water.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21446

I let it sit in the bath for a couple days (taking it out to scrub rust off and rinse before resubmerging in the same bath, what happened is black stains began to form on parts of the keris.

The stain can not be scrubbed off. By scrubbing, it only stains the toothbrush and water a dark black like paint. To make things worse, the black stain emits a strong chemical oder I can only describe as similar to burning tires! It is a noxious fume that permeates the entire bathroom with a horrible stench :(

The exact same thing happened to a moro kris I attempted to clean with diluted vinegar, and it turned out to ruin that moro kris in the end.

Essentially with both the Indonesian keris and Moro kris developed the black stains. Furthermore, the blackened parts of both blades look like they are corroded the blade as though they were burnt in a fire.

Here are some photos of the black staining of the keris that is spreading. What could it be?

[Jean]

I have no real clues but just submit my personal comments and opinion:
. The blade cleaning is not complete (remaining rust spots) probably because the vinegar is too diluted. I am using undiluted vinegar at 8-10% and I cover the vertical container for avoiding evaporation of the volatile acetic acid. The cleaning procedure usually lasts 24 h only with 2 intermediate brushings.
. From the pics, the black spots look like exposed and corroded steel or iron. As said by Alan in the last thread, the blade has pamor sanak.
. Is the bad smell like rotten eggs? In this case it would be hydrogen sulphide caused by the presence of iron sulphide in the metal and attacked by the weak acid.
Regards

[Marcokeris]

Apolaki to clean the blade you can also use acid citric . You can put the blade inside 1 lt water with three little spoons of acid citric (white dust). Little by little the rust goes away. I used this way in the past with good exit.

[A. G. Maisey]

Apolaki, I believe that the black you can see is the steel core that has been hardened. The small specks in the body of the blade could be where the outside layers have worn, or, as Jean has suggested, maybe some steel is in the mix of the outside layers, but the big black areas at the point & edges are steel core.

As to cleaning with vinegar I am not nearly as scientific as either Jean or Marco. I buy ordinary white household vinegar, I have not the slightest idea of its acidity, I never dilute it. I simply wash the blade with detergent to get rid of any grease, and soak it in the vinegar. I inspect it once or twice a day and brush it as well as pick off the rust with a sharp tool, then I put it back into the vinegar. It might take me a week or more before I'm satisfied that it is clean.

Jean has my utmost admiration if he can get a truly dirty blade clean in 24 hours with only 2 brushings. Incredible! You're a better man I am Jean.

[Marcokeris]

Apolaki, I believe that the black you can see is the steel core that has been hardened. The small specks in the body of the blade could be where the outside layers have worn, or, as Jean has suggested, maybe some steel is in the mix of the outside layers, but the big black areas at the point & edges are steel core.

As to cleaning with vinegar I am not nearly as scientific as either Jean or Marco. I buy ordinary white household vinegar, I have not the slightest idea of its acidity, I never dilute it. I simply wash the blade with detergent to get rid of any grease, and soak it in the vinegar. I inspect it once or twice a day and brush it as well as pick off the rust with a sharp tool, then I put it back into the vinegar. It might take me a week or more before I'm satisfied that it is clean.

Jean has my utmost admiration if he can get a truly dirty blade clean in 24 hours with only 2 brushings. Incredible! You're a better man I am Jean.

my way to clean blades (with rust difficult to remove with other easier systems) is only empirical and rather fast.... sorry for my bad english

[A. G. Maisey]

Nitric acid is faster Marco.

But jokes aside, citric acid works well, I've used that too, and a lot of people in Indonesia currently use citric. In fact anything acidic will clean a blade, its just that I prefer vinegar because it is cheap, easy, consistent.

But if I could still get decent pineapple juice, I'd still be using that.

[Anthony G.]

I have a really perplexing dilemma. I gave this keris I posted a long time ago a bath recently in diluted vinegar (originally 5% acidity), but I poured and mixed 2+ cups of water.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21446

I let it sit in the bath for a couple days (taking it out to scrub rust off and rinse before resubmerging in the same bath, what happened is black stains began to form on parts of the keris.

The stain can not be scrubbed off. By scrubbing, it only stains the toothbrush and water a dark black like paint. To make things worse, the black stain emits a strong chemical oder I can only describe as similar to burning tires! It is a noxious fume that permeates the entire bathroom with a horrible stench :(

The exact same thing happened to a moro kris I attempted to clean with diluted vinegar, and it turned out to ruin that moro kris in the end.

Essentially with both the Indonesian keris and Moro kris developed the black stains. Furthermore, the blackened parts of both blades look like they are corroded the blade as though they were burnt in a fire.

Here are some photos of the black staining of the keris that is spreading. What could it be?


I used home vinegar before and soak for a day during weekend. The old balinese keris has a part on the bilah which is almost what you have described. I think it is the steel core.

[apolaki]

Thanks all, so the steel core is reactive poorly to the vinegar. Is the damage irreparable?

I have now taken the keris out of the vinegar bath and placed it in a bicarbonate and water bath (or as we say in the States, baking soda and water).

[A. G. Maisey]

Apolaki, the steel core is not reacting poorly, and it does not need any sort of repair:- it is reacting exactly as it is supposed to react and it is an indication that the blade has been heat treated.

[Anthony G.]

Apolaki, the steel core is not reacting poorly, and it does not need any sort of repair:- it is reacting exactly as it is supposed to react and it is an indication that the blade has been heat treated.

Thanks for info. I knew that keris is heat treated now. Cheers

[apolaki]

Apolaki, the steel core is not reacting poorly, and it does not need any sort of repair:- it is reacting exactly as it is supposed to react and it is an indication that the blade has been heat treated.

The reason I thought the keris is now damaged is due to the edge. It used to be a straight edge throughout, but now the edges particularly where the black stain is has a serrated/corroded edge look as I have circled in red.

Also the black stain is not removable so it leaves a un-uniform look to the keris.

I am interested to learn more about heat-treated keris blades and how/why vinegar effects it in this manner. Is there any literature you can link me to?

Were the pamor keris I cleaned prior with vinegar all non-heat treated/ did they not have steel?

Also, what is the point of heat treating a keris?

Thanks!

[A. G. Maisey]

Older keris very often have uneven edges, if it troubles you you can even up the edges by filing. Personally, I would not bother dressing the edges of an old blade unless the edges were very severely eroded and/or the blade was of very high quality. The little bit of erosion that you have drawn our attention to is nothing. It is normal, just accept it.

Apolaki, this is a keris. Everything I can see about this keris is totally normal for a keris of this age and quality. Yes, the edges are uneven, yes, the colour is uneven. This is exactly what we expect with a keris like this. There is nothing wrong with it, it is normal.

I cannot refer you to any published works that can explain why heat-treated steel goes black. I guess it is simply because the steel contains carbon, the iron does not, when the steel is heated and then suddenly cooled the carbon at the surface goes through some sort of change. An engineer can probably explain the reasons, I cannot.

As to why you did not see this change in colour in other keris you have cleaned, there could be a number of reasons. Maybe they had not been heat treated, or if they were old blades, maybe the blade had been annealed and the steel had become soft, maybe the blade did not have a steel edge or core, maybe it did have a steel core, but the core projected around the edge by only a small amount and any colour change would be difficult to see, maybe only the tip of the blade was heat treated. Lots of "maybes" and a different maybe can apply to different kerises.

If you do not like the look of the blade as it is, you could always repolish it and then use cold blue that is used for firearms repair to give it a deep blue colour.

[kai]

Hello Apolaki,

I'm still at a loss about the stench you report; rotten-egg smell is certainly not unheard of though. There is a reason why most of us do these things outside, in a shed or in some other well-ventilated area... ;)

I'm also pretty pretty sure anyone possibly living with you wouldn't appreciate any fermenting pineapple juice with fungus floating on top. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Having said that, keris Jawa blades can be especially porous and whatever happens to hide inside those crevices may differ quite a bit and possibly contribute to unexpected "features" as well.


The general rule for traditional/historic iron/steel: the greater the amount of carbon, the more susceptible they are to corrosion (i.e. rusting away). If any given steel alloy has been hardened, it corrodes even quicker than unhardened. For more details you can consult metallurgical text books but as Alan notes, this is not really needed for basic cleaning efforts.

Any smooth-looking edges with enough patina on them so that you can't see the bare steel anymore is likely to have patches consisting of rust rather than steel. When you start cleaning, the rust will fall off and these patches will look like in the pics you show (or worse). For keris Jawa this appearance is culturally accepted nowadays.


Regarding the aesthetics of the final result, I suggest that you're still in the middle of the cleaning phase: It would be good to proceed to remove all rust as Jean already suggested. One usually tries to limit exposure of the blade to any acid and manually scrubbing the blade and individually picking the remaining spots of rust as described by Alan really helps the acid to finish its job quicker.

Once the rust is completely removed (pics with flash can help to detect any remaining rust), you could try to rub a cut lime fruit over the dark areas, if you prefer lesser contrast. I usually do this as a preparation before progressing to warangan.

For pretty much any keris Jawa or keris Bali/Lombok warangan is needed as a final step to bring out the traditional look of the pamor. If you can't do that, it might be worth a try with other etching approaches including the cold blue suggested by Alan. While the exposed steel core will always stay visible (perfectly ok), the main part of the blade should have some pamor to show which would lessen the current B&W contrast.


The exact same thing happened to a moro kris I attempted to clean with diluted vinegar, and it turned out to ruin that moro kris in the end.
BTW, that Moro kris is far from ruined! (Unless you haven't shown us his most recent reincarnation...)

As far as I could see, the overall surface wasn't even porous and just needs "a little" touching up with some polishing effort. Needs a bit of tedious work but feasible even for any beginner.

The more experience one gains with restoration, the better one is able to predict the final outcome and the hopefully best strategy to achieve it with the least effort. Most errors or results of less suitable approaches do not tend to have severe consequences and can be remedied with additional efforts. However, it helps to obtain frequent feedback during each project to progress along the learning curve - I'd posit posting pics of the current status of any ongoing projects more frequently!

The more a blade approaches any relict/excavated condition, the more careful one should consider just leaving it alone though. (There is a reason why we tend to speak of "ghost" blades in forum parlor, especially with keris Jawa.)

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I have tried cold blue on a normal contrasting pamor blade but it does not produce acceptable results.

However, on pamor sanak, which is all ferric material, it can produce more or less OK results, and for touch-ups of worn areas on a blade that has contrasting pamor it works really well. I'm talking about very small areas when I mention "touch-ups", areas less than, say, 3mm X 3mm.

What you say about sensitising the blade prior to warangan by rubbing a cut lime over it is better achieved by brushing with strained juice from Tahitian lime, freshly squeezed.

[jagabuwana]

Kai, I have tried cold blue on a normal contrasting pamor blade but it does not produce acceptable results.

However, on pamor sanak, which is all ferric material, it can produce more or less OK results, and for touch-ups of worn areas on a blade that has contrasting pamor it works really well. I'm talking about very small areas when I mention "touch-ups", areas less than, say, 3mm X 3mm.



Alan or anyone else - might you be able to show have a good example of a darkened pamor sanak blade, or a pamor sanak blade which has had cold blue applied to it such that it produces an "ok result"?

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot. Sorry.

[apolaki]

How do you indicate that this is pamor sanak? I see the word mentioned several times. From when I cleaned the blade, I could not find any distinct contrasting patterns in the blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

"sanak" means "related", a relative, or a relation.

"Pamor Sanak" is "related pamor"

Related to what?

The rest of the blade, in other words the pamor is ferric material, usually of various types, blended together. It is not usual for pamor made exclusively of ferric material to provide contrast, but if white iron (high phosphorus iron) is used you will get a low key contrast.

[jagabuwana]

If a blade does not have an obvious pamor (e.g. using ferric and non-ferric materials such that obvious contrasts in the damascene pattern can be seen), how often is it the case that it can be called "pamor sanak"?

Would this be almost the same as asking this question:

Were keris or other tosan aji from what is now Indonesia ever made using a single material, such that there can be no pamor to speak of?

[A. G. Maisey]

We usually classify something as pamor sanak if we can see the weld lines but there is no contrast, in other words, the outside layers have been made by welding together an assortment of various irons.

Yes, there are blades from various places that give the appearance of having been made from only the one type of material.

During the 1980's in Solo the elite of ahli keris that I came in contact with seemed to hold the opinion that in Sultan Agung's time, and also before and after, keris that were made specifically as weapons were made without contrasting pamor, whilst keris that were made with pamor and/or naga and other carved motifs were made for talismanic or social reasons.

[Mickey the Finn]

For what little it may be worth, I've done a few rust removal experiments on planer blades (from lumber mills), neglected and abused Mora knives of laminated steel construction, "load binders", and hard-to-come-by threaded fasteners using either undiluted acetic acid from Canadian or Filipino producers, undiluted Peruvian lemon juice, or an ad hoc mixture of both. For blades, I'll wrap in paper towel, apply liquid to saturate, then wrap in common, food grade plastic wrap or a similar shipping grade product. The result after unwrapping 12-96 hours later is always a strong odour which I'd describe as mouth-watering in a Limburger cheese sort of way. Provided that care has been taken to remove all oil and/or grease from the steel treated in such a way, in most cases, the rust will have disappeared, and the steel will be quite black, and vigorous rubbing with nothing more abrasive than a paper towel or a stick of (soft, not hard) softwood is needed to remove this blackening completely. Faster results might possibly be achieved using a toothbrush, perhaps in combination with toothpaste. This last mentioned method works on silver plate and coinage (though I'd discourage it), but I've never tried it on steel.
I've read of a method used at one time in Japan to cause a durable layer of glossy, black protective oxide to form on chisels and axe heads by first soaking in a solution of water and kosher salt until fully coated in rust, and then boiling the rusty tool in hydrogen peroxide to bring about the conversion of the rust to the protective black oxide. I've yet to try this method, but have considered it for "gardening-variety" machete, parang and golok, and as a possible alternative to traditional warangan treatment for keris due to arsenic being unavailable where I'm living. If anyone has any knowledge of this method, any input would be appreciated.

[apolaki]

Apolaki to clean the blade you can also use acid citric . You can put the blade inside 1 lt water with three little spoons of acid citric (white dust). Little by little the rust goes away. I used this way in the past with good exit.

Hi Marco,

I don't access to acid citric. Where can you get that?

Also, can I use concentrated lemon juice and water? If so, what is the recommended ratio?

[Marcokeris]

Hi Marco,

I don't access to acid citric. Where can you get that?

Also, can I use concentrated lemon juice and water? If so, what is the recommended ratio?
Hi Apolaki
I have always easily found citric acid in the pharmacy (here in Italy). Citric acid resembles as white sugar and I used this acid only with blades where the rust was very difficult to take away as old rust inside the deep of the blade's structures. When you will have the citric acid you must put some spoons of this dust into water and you must put all the blade inside this water for one day or more or less (it depends how many acid you put in the water) and , for exemple, every hour, you have to see the the blades to control the process.
Western lemon juice, in my experience, works well together bicarbonate-soda if I want to take away old warangan from the blade ...and to clean the blade before to put a new warangan

[Interested Party]

Hi Apolaki
Western lemon juice, in my experience, works well together bicarbonate-soda if I want to take away old warangan from the blade ...and to clean the blade before to put a new warangan

Marco what ratio of lemon juice to bicarbonate soda are you using? Are you making a paste and scrubbing with a tooth brush?

[Marcokeris]

Marco what ratio of lemon juice to bicarbonate soda are you using? Are you making a paste and scrubbing with a tooth brush?
yes... I used exactly this way

[apolaki]

yes... I used exactly this way

Great! What is the ratio you use?

[jagabuwana]

A word to the wise:

A great regret of mine is opting to use citric acid as opposed to regular white cooking vinegar, on one of my old blades.

It was the first time for me cleaning any blade.

Firstly I put too much citric acid in and it flaked some of the steel off the blade.
It was already in quite a fragile state due to its purported age, and the concentration of citric acid was far too harsh.

For this reason I will always opt to use cooking vinegar and father time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jaga, I understand where you're coming from with this, and I'm of the same opinion, but only because I've used vinegar for years & years now and never had even the hint of any sort of negative result.

However, if I was new to the game I'd be looking at everything, including Coca-Cola and tomato juice. It is the nature of human kind that most people like to learn by their own mistakes.

That said, Marco used a very short term hands-on method with his citric acid. People in Solo have been using citric for years, and citric acid is what a lot of people in Solo use. Bi-carb used as a cleaner is great stuff to remove stains from tea cups and coffee cups. Bi-carb is really wonderful stuff for lots of things.

Lemon juice is in fact pretty high in citric acid to begin with. Used as a paste of bi-carb with a toothbrush I reckon it would be pretty effective. But even so, I'll stay with vinegar because of my experience with its impeccable record and because it is so easy and non-time consuming to use.

Actually, the acid in vinegar is acetic acid, and that is pretty strong stuff, but there is usually only about 5% or 6% in household white vinegar, the rest is water.

Personally, I would encourage all beginners to try everything that they can think of and to learn by their own mistakes:- there is nothing as sobering as destroying something that cost you money, by failing to learn from the mistakes of others.

[apolaki]

The black stain has spread throughout the blade, it is like infected the blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing is infected Apo, I'm looking at normal here.

Pick off the hard rust with a small, sharp tool.

Get some coarse steel wool and some powder sink cleaner, give it a good scrub under running water.

Dry it and put it back in the vinegar.

No fluid is magic, it is just a substance that helps you to get the job done. If I look at the pics of this blade I can still see a lot of what appears to be rust. I suggest you pick this off, scrub it off, as I have advised above.

When the thing is clean, dry it thoroughly and then either stain it or spray with WD40.

[jagabuwana]

I hear that, Alan. I did not intend for my note to be a discouragement to try others, only to share my experience with citric acid.

Not sure if I'm glad I made the mistake, but I'm glad I learned from it.

I have a tendency to be quite conservative and unwilling to try other things after I make a regrettable mistake, so thank you for the reminder to keep trying other stuff I come across.

~~~

Apolaki, I've seen black stains like those when I was cleaning my Tuban-style pamor sanak keris - especially what is seen on the cleaner side of the blade. I just put it back in the cleaning solution (vinegar) and took it out to brush with a soft toothbrush more often. Eventually it came good. It's still quite clean.
I wouldn't worry too much, as Alan said just try to clean it again because there is rust on it.

[A. G. Maisey]

One of these days Jaga, I'm going to try Coca-Cola on a keris --- and a few other things.

There are some particularly nasty concoctions that some people in Jawa use make blades look old. Some of these devil's brews can eat a keris over night.

It is, I believe, meritorious to try different things, but it is even more so to try them slowly, gently and with care.

[Jean]

The black stain has spread throughout the blade, it is like infected the blade.

Ouch, I can clearly see the coronavirus effect indeed, beware! :D

[Jean]

A word to the wise:

A great regret of mine is opting to use citric acid as opposed to regular white cooking vinegar, on one of my old blades.

It was the first time for me cleaning any blade.

Firstly I put too much citric acid in and it flaked some of the steel off the blade.
It was already in quite a fragile state due to its purported age, and the concentration of citric acid was far too harsh.

For this reason I will always opt to use cooking vinegar and father time.

My personal experience is quite different from yours Jaga, probably because your blade was in too poor condition for being treated.
I tested citric acid at 10% concentration (100 g of pure citric acid powder diluted in one liter of water) in controlled conditions (regular checking) and it worked quite well without attacking the metal itself, but not better than pure vinegar. I also tested oxalic acid (used for de-rusting bolts) in similar conditions and it also worked correctly. Vinegar (acetic aid), citric acid, and oxalic acid are weak organic acids with a PH of about 3 in solution so they can safely be used with ferric metals.
By the way and as a ex-chemical engineer, I would not use citric acid and sodium bicarbonate together as the bicarbonate neutralizes the acidity of the citric acid! :confused:

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, I would have thought that bicarb and lemon juice together would have reduced the acidity, but Marco used it, and apparently it worked. Maybe it was just the bicarb and brushing that produced the result, bicarb just by itself is a powerful cleaner.

What effect do you think sulphur and salt together might have on ferric material?

[Jean]

What effect do you think sulphur and salt together might have on ferric material?

I know that it is used Alan but I don't understand how it works as both products are basically stable and inert :confused:
However I would propose the following chemical raction chain (just my assumption, no guarantee whatsoever): the salt (NaCl) may slightly react with the metal and produce ferric or ferrous chloride (Fe Cl3 or FeCl2, highly reactive and slightly acidic) and the sulphur may react with it and produce black iron sulphide (FeS) giving the "warangan" effect on the blade.
Regards

[Marcokeris]

Ouch, I can clearly see the coronavirus effect indeed, beware! :D
:D :D :D :D

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Jean, sulphur and salt has an erosive effect.

I once saw a keris blade taken from a bath of sulphur and salt, it had been in the bath for about a week and had been forgotten. More than 50% of the blade had been eaten.

Why?

The sulphur and salt was mixed with water so it was a slurry, but these two things are opposites.

I do not understand.

[jagabuwana]

I know that it is used Alan but I don't understand how it works as both products are basically stable and inert :confused:
However I would propose the following chemical raction chain (just my assumption, no guarantee whatsoever): the salt (NaCl) may slightly react with the metal and produce ferric or ferrous chloride (Fe Cl3 or FeCl2, highly reactive and slightly acidic) and the sulphur may react with it and produce black iron sulphide (FeS) giving the "warangan" effect on the blade.
Regards

Yes I have attempted a stain using salt, rice water (i.e. the water that becomes cloudy after you rinse and soak rice in it) and sulphur, based off some info in previous posts on this forum.

Brushed it into a blade, covered it in cling/saran wrap. In a day it turned as black as squid ink. I freaked out after a bout a day or two thinking it would damage the blade, but it looked promising. I think had I left it, it would have done a better job.

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

[Jean]

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

I don't know Jaga, probably no chemical effect but getting a more homogeneous slurry? The black colour of the blade seems to indicate the presence of iron sulphide.
And I would say that sulphur and salt have an corrosive effect (chemical wear) rather than erosive (mechanical wear)?
Regards

[David]

Yes I have attempted a stain using salt, rice water (i.e. the water that becomes cloudy after you rinse and soak rice in it) and sulphur, based off some info in previous posts on this forum.

Brushed it into a blade, covered it in cling/saran wrap. In a day it turned as black as squid ink. I freaked out after a bout a day or two thinking it would damage the blade, but it looked promising. I think had I left it, it would have done a better job.
Any photos of this Jaga?

[Rick]

[QUOTE=Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?[/QUOTE]

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.
:shrug:

[Jean]

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.
:shrug:

Not sufficient to give any waragan effect IMO or all rice eaters would die in horrible circumstances as arsenic accumulates inside the body :D

[jagabuwana]

Any photos of this Jaga?

Here you go.

It's since been cleaned down to a bare white blade because I wasn't happy with it. But it was a promising result.

When I try it again I'll leave it for longer.

Recipe:

Rice water - I soaked 1 part jasmine rice in 2 parts water, and agitated it so that it became cloudy. I ended up with around half a cup.

Salt - I used regular cooking salt. Don't remember how much. Maybe half a teaspoon.

Sulphur - In the form of yellow powder off ebay. I think I used 2 teaspoons.

[Jean]

My own appreciation: Quite good cleaning results, some faint traces of rust visible on the sorsoran and ganja, about equivalent of what I get with vinegar but with slightly better pamor contrast.

[jagabuwana]

My own appreciation: Quite good cleaning results, some faint traces of rust visible on the sorsoran and ganja, about equivalent of what I get with vinegar but with slightly better pamor contrast.

For me, it didn't go nearly as dark just using vinegar. Though if I could retain the slight contrasts that vinegar gives the blade, I would. I quite like it.

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon that for the type of material it is, it is a pretty good job.

Long time since I used the rice water method, but I'm pretty certain that my rice water was produced by boiling rice in too much water, then draining the water off. Also, I left the blade in the slurry of sulphur + salt + rice water for (I think) about a week, it was wrapped in plastic, the original recipe called for wrapping in a palm leaf.

The sulphur would have been bought in a hardware or garden supplier, the salt would have been from the kitchen.

This was the result.

Incidentally, this blade was stained more than 60 years ago, it has been maintained by infrequent oiling during that time, and for the last +/- 50 years by oiling + a plastic sleeve.

[jagabuwana]

That looks like a nice result. In the absence of warangan I'd be happy with it.

Just to clarify Alan, did it have any of the warangan stain on it prior to doing the rice water + sulphur + salt method?

I think I'll give this another go soon. All of a sudden got a lot more time on my hands with this pandemic lockdown situation. Hope everyone stays healthy and safe

[A. G. Maisey]

I really don't remember Jaga.

I think I was only about 17 or 18 when I did this, it was the first keris I ever stained, I did not know any other way at that time. I remember broadly what I did, but no detail.

[Mickey the Finn]

Personally, I would encourage all beginners to try everything that they can think of and to learn by their own mistakes:- there is nothing as sobering as destroying something that cost you money, by failing to learn from the mistakes of others.
It has been, for about 23 years now, a maxim of mine (inspired by a Clint Eastwood movie, if memory serves) that, "If anything goes wrong, it'll be because of my mistake, and not anybody else's"; alternatively: "Nothing learns a lesson like my own tuition fees". The last mentioned quote is entirely my own, as far as I know. This is not to say that someone else may not have come up with it independently prior to myself and/or without my knowledge.
If anyone reading this feels like they must make a choice, I would urge such a one to heed the counsel of Mr. Maisey, for his is the voice of experience longer and broader than my own.
I'm thankful to God Almighty that He, in His Merciful Omniscience, has (thus far) protected irreplaceable antiquities and cultural artifacts from becoming the wreckage along the wayside of my educational journey.
There is often something to be gained from reading the notes of those who have taken the course before.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Mickey, that's nice.

Can I put it in my resume?

[Mickey the Finn]

Yes, you certainly may. I would be most honoured if you did so, and extremely grateful if you were to send me a copy.
Your query did inspire, not a question, but a brief moment of speculation of shorter duration than the time it will take for me to write the general outline of "how it went". I'll write it out regardless, as it's currently 04:08 Pacific Daylight Saving Time, and writing it out will enable me to reduce the time I'll otherwise spend curled up sleepless in a foetal position.
A résumé, or curriculum vitae, is generally composed by an applicant for a job. It's my belief that there exist certain "callings" from which one simply does not retire, although one might possibly cease to "work" in an official capacity in exchange for remuneration. The calling of a minister of religion might be considered one such calling. I know of one man in the legal profession, well past the age when most people in the "western world" hang up their hats, who is still "at it", although officially "semi-retired" on his law firm's webpage. I'm aware of one local teacher of mathematics who is upwards of 80 years of age, who has stated neither desire nor intention of retiring. Retirement is a luxury unavailable, if not totally unknown, to the majority of the people who labour (literally and/or figuratively) under the sun. Watched a program on T.V. a few years back (might've been CNN's "Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown", and some elderly Sicilian woman, when asked if she did not want to retire, retorted, "And then what? Die"?
I do not believe that you're currently employed in any official or unofficial capacity (although that doesn't necessarily mean you no longer do "the thing you do".
Four hours ago I had no more than two "wee drams" of Ballantine's Finest (I didn't measure precisely, but the level in the mickey hasn't even gone down past the rounds of the shoulders). They haven't clouded my judgement, though they may have provided the lubrication for me to say (with no fear of exaggeration) that, in addition to having Living Legend status, you're the undisputed and undefeated heavyweight champion here. If there's any place worth your being on the payroll, it's they who'll solicit you. You've no need to go knocking.
Just an aside: I often can't quite tell if you've got your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, or whether you're being deadpan serious. It may be the fault of the communication medium, or it's possible I'm either dense or thick.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey
Postscript: That looks like a really good result from rice water+sulphur+salt; I believe I may try that myself, on a laminated steel knife of recent manufacture, before any keris kamardikan by Mpu Tanpa Nama. I certainly wouldn't experiment on any keris Djeno, even if I had one in need of stain.

[Interested Party]

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.
:shrug:

Wikipedia, the source of all reliable information, states, "As arsenic is a natural element in soil, water, and air, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) monitors the levels of arsenic in foods, particularly in rice products used commonly for infant food.[20] While growing, rice plants tend to absorb arsenic more readily than other food crops, requiring expanded testing by the FDA for possible arsenic-related risks associated with rice consumption in the United States.[20] In April 2016, the FDA proposed a limit of 100 parts per billion (ppb) for inorganic arsenic in infant rice cereal and other foods to minimize exposure of infants to arsenic.[20]."

Thus its seems if the key to the rice water stain process is arsenic, where the rice is grown would greatly affect the quality of the stain. So possibly the region in which this technique originated it was highly effective due to very high concentrations of arsenic in the soil. The downside is that the local population's health may have been compromised.

[Jean]

In April 2016, the FDA proposed a limit of 100 parts per billion (ppb) for inorganic arsenic in infant rice cereal and other foods to minimize exposure of infants to arsenic.[20]."


100 ppb is equivalent to 0.1 PPM (part per million) so a very very low concentration. Even if the arsenic content in the rice water is higher than in the rice itself, I doubt it very much that it could be sufficient for creating any warangan effect.
For comparison, the arsenic concentration in realgar (arsenic sulphide ore, the most commonly used chemicals for warangan treatment) amounts to several percents so thousands time more than in the rice (one percent is equivalent to 10,000 PPM).... :)

[kai]

I agree that even possibly elevated amounts of arsenic in rice are a red herring for the salt+sulphur recipe. While the salt is acting as a corrosive agent, the stain will result from reactive sulphur compounds.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Cupla thangs Mickey.

Number one:- I'm Aussie. In general, Aussies from my generation and before tend not to take very much, very seriously. I take a few things relatively seriously, but mostly the tongue is edging towards the cheek.

Number two:- retirement is a ticket to hell, and I'm in no hurry to get there. You stop work, you go rotten, then you die. Nobody can afford to retire.

Number three:- the "Living Legend" with all due apologies, I've never heard such nonsense. I started younger than most people, I've continued longer than most people, my debt to the true Legends who taught me is enormous. I'm no Legend, just lucky. Right time, right place, that's all.

As for the rice water stain, warangan works better. That one I've shown a picture of is better than a couple of others I tried later. Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide works best --- problem these days is that without the required qualification and certificate, you cannot get it.

[jagabuwana]

Mickey, when they finally make Keris Warung Kopi: The Movie, surely you will narrate.

[Interested Party]

I ran across these directions today. Gardner says: "The keris blade is next laid in a trough containing boiling rice water, sulphur, and salt, for three or four days. This blackens the steel but scarcely touches the iron. It attacks the marks of the welds, which show as tiny etched lines. When this damascened pattern is clear, the blade is cleaned with lime juice."

Two things in that caught my attention. First was the adjective boiling rice water, not boiled or simply rice water. It made me think about Mickey's trick of boiling steel in hydrogen peroxide earlier in the thread. The second was that it blackens the steel and attacks the welds, the hardest parts of the blade. esp if the flux was something such as rice straw ash that would add carbon content to the weld line. BTW what is used for flux in Keris manufacture? Either Gardner's understanding of the parts was reversed or this treatment attacks areas of higher carbon content. That to me in one way or another is interesting. If he did misunderstand the pattern does that make his use of boiling invalid?:shrug:

Jugabuwana, did your blade ever get its second rice water bath or did the COVID pass through and life go back to its hectic normal? I'd love to see more pictures someday!

[A. G. Maisey]

Welding in Jawa is traditionally done in teak charcoal, the material is not welded with a flux, no flux is necessary.

I do not know the process used in old Malaya.

[Interested Party]

Interesting, today I stumbled onto the tidbit that brown rice contains more arsenic than white rice. I wonder if that means arsenic would be most concentrated in the bran? In addition rices from California, India, and Thailand are lower in arsenic than most. Second postulation; if as mentioned above, the concentration of arsenic in rice is negligible maybe rice water is used for the starch content to help evenly coat the blade for the week the reaction time the rice water/sulphur/salt slurry takes to properly stain a blade.

Sort of a related question. Does anyone know how much ground realgar one would need to stain an average keris blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

Not all realgar is equal, so the quantity required depends on the realgar, as does the result.

[milandro]

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

reviving this question

Rice water should work, in itself, not because it has starch (which certainly has) but because it contains Arsenic.

but i see other people in this thread have commented on the low amount of arsenic in rice.

[A. G. Maisey]

Scroll down to page #19

https://aiccm.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/NationalNewsletter_103_June2007_0.pdf

[jagabuwana]

reviving this question

Rice water should work, in itself, not because it has starch (which certainly has) but because it contains Arsenic.

but i see other people in this thread have commented on the low amount of arsenic in rice.

There's trace amounts of arsenic in all kinds of foods, though rice has a higher amount (within the confines of safe).

Maybe the combination of sulfur and some arsenic is what does it, with sulfur acting like a kind of multiplier which allows for even small concentrations of arsenic to be effective. But this is a wild guess.

If I have some time I'd be interested to try adding some sulfur in with some ineffective realgar I bought off the internet and see if it yields a better result compared to just realgar alone, using the brush stain method.

[milandro]

this seems to be a possibility, along with light and temperature being the activator of the process.

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

If rice water with minute amounts of arsenic combined to sulphur produces modest amounts of arsenic sulfide and these stain the blade even in modest amounts that may very well be the reason why the salt-sulphur method works

[Anthony G.]

this seems to be a possibility, along with light and temperature being the activator of the process.

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

If rice water with minute amounts of arsenic combined to sulphur produces modest amounts of arsenic sulfide and these stain the blade even in modest amounts that may very well be the reason why the salt-sulphur method works

I was told by a friend who said that temperature of the surrounding during the time of 'washing' plays a role/part.

[David]

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.
As stated by Alan above, not all realgar is equal. So if you guy uses realgar as his source for arsenic it is quite possible he just obtained an ineffective batch. In it's naturally sourced form there is just no consistency in strength. That is why it is great if you can get a hold of the lab quality arsenic trioxide. It will always be the same strength each and every time.

[milandro]

from another thread


Has anyone considered or actually used antimony trioxide in place of arsenic trioxide for the purpose of staining keris?

From what I can cursorily discover, it is considerably less toxic than the arsenic compound, though of course not without risk.

[David]

Yeah, i noted Bob's question at the time, but don't really know anything about antimony trioxide. Apparently no one else does either as no one responded to his query.
As far as i can tell it has one great advantage over arsenic trioxide in that i believe it can be purchased by the average citizen, but the question of whether or not it works remains to be seen. It does seem to be much cheaper (and more available) than As2O3, so maybe someone here might want to do some experimentation. :)

[ariel]

I have cleaned rusty and heavily patinated blades ( NOT krises!) with “ Renaissance Metal de-corroder”. On top of efficacy, there is no need to use gloves.
Cover the blade generously with the gel, using reasonably narrow brush, wrap in plastic ( I used Saran Wrap) leave for 24-48 hours, unwrap, wash the gel off under faucet, dry and Â…thatÂ’s all. Rust goes away, some patina stays. Then , if satisfied, oil. I use melted Renaissance wax: when semiliquid, it gets into all scratches and crevices. If not, I would guess needs repeating or polishing.

I like mine with some patina ( kisses of time), so never had to go beyond the first step.

[David]

I have cleaned rusty and heavily patinated blades ( NOT krises!) with “ Renaissance Metal de-corroder”. On top of efficacy, there is no need to use gloves.
Cover the blade generously with the gel, using reasonably narrow brush, wrap in plastic ( I used Saran Wrap) leave for 24-48 hours, unwrap, wash the gel off under faucet, dry and Â…thatÂ’s all. Rust goes away, some patina stays. Then , if satisfied, oil. I use melted Renaissance wax: when semiliquid, it gets into all scratches and crevices. If not, I would guess needs repeating or polishing.

I like mine with some patina ( kisses of time), so never had to go beyond the first step.
I have no doubt this is an effective way to clean rust Ariel. However, this current discussion is regarding the STAINING process for keris, either with warangan or some other process that will darken the iron and raise the pamor pattern, not how to remove rust. The rust removal set for keris would precede the staining process. ;)