Keris with elephant-headed blade.

[Athanase]

Hello

After some time of absence, I came back with some new things.

Here is a very recently acquired this Keris, the handle is very similar to the one I posted here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=245310&postcount=159


Unfortunately it doesn't have a sheath but I would have liked to know if it was possible to have an idea of its origin because I would like to find a compatible sheath.

These are the pictures of the auction room, because I haven't received it yet.

[Marcokeris]

Very nice keris :) IMO the blade seems Balinese, the hilt from East java, pendok from Sumatra. Cograturation :)

[David]

Unfortunately it doesn't have a sheath but I would have liked to know if it was possible to have an idea of its origin because I would like to find a compatible sheath.
These are the pictures of the auction room, because I haven't received it yet.
I think more unfortunate than the missing sheath is the broken ivory hilt. It would seem it is being held together by the rubber band. Since you make no mention of this i do hope it is something that you noticed before buying.
It is a beautiful hilt though and probably deserving of some professional repair if you have access to someone who does such work on antique ivory. I'n not convinced it is East Jawa giving the motifs, but i don't know for sure. Marco mentions the pendok. I'm sure he meant pendokok, since obviously there is no sheath to have a pendok here. I would more call this a selut than a pendokok though and i don't think it comes from Sumatra.
How long is this blade btw?

[Marcokeris]

I think more unfortunate than the missing hilt is the broken ivory hilt. It would seem it is being held together by the rubber band. Since you make no mention of this i do hope it is something that you noticed before buying.
It is a beautiful hilt though and probably deserving of some professional repair if you have access to someone who does such work on antique ivory. I'n not convinced it is East Jawa giving the motifs, but i don't know for sure. Marco mentions the pendok. I'm sure he meant pendokok, since obviously there is no sheath to have a pendok here. I would more call this a selut than a pendokok though and i don't think it comes from Sumatra.
How long is this blade btw?
You're right David!( ... OMG I see that I'm getting old :-p !!) . I meant selut (which perhaps has a separate mendak over)

[kai]

Hello Severin,

Congrats, another great score! Let me know, yadda, yadda... ;) :rolleyes: :o

The hilt is a very nice and example. Make sure that the broken part is wrapped separately during shipping! This is certainly worth specialized repair/restoration efforts.

Keris Jawa rather than Bali? What is the blade length?

Regards,
Kai

[Athanase]

I only have the total length: 58cm (so I deduct approximately 47cm for the blade)
The handle was reported as "broken" in the notice but during the sale, the auctioneer clarified that the handle was not broken but split. Apparently the crack is open on one side but still welded on the other, as when the wood splits.
I think we can fill the crack, but I don't believe that it's possible to close it by applying pressure.

[A. G. Maisey]

This is a Balinese keris, the hilt & fittings do not belong with the blade. By "Balinese", I mean Balinese culture, it could have as easily been made in Lombok as in Bali itself.

In respect of the hilt, my personal preference would be to leave exactly as it is, no restoration attempts, but demount from the blade and keep separate in a situation that would be kind to ivory, ideally this would be controlled humidity & temperature, but for most of us this is not possible. Certainly in a situation where it is not exposed to sunlight or artificial lighting and is protected from dust. A small glass of water in the same space would give a measure of added protection.

[Athanase]

Thank you for all your opinions.
It is true that I hadn't thought to look at the length of the blade (47cm approximately) and it should have already directed me to a blade of Balinese origin.
For the handle I will actually pay attention to the protected from the sun and other source of light producing heat.

[apolaki]

This is a Balinese keris, the hilt & fittings do not belong with the blade. By "Balinese", I mean Balinese culture, it could have as easily been made in Lombok as in Bali itself.

In respect of the hilt, my personal preference would be to leave exactly as it is, no restoration attempts, but demount from the blade and keep separate in a situation that would be kind to ivory, ideally this would be controlled humidity & temperature, but for most of us this is not possible. Certainly in a situation where it is not exposed to sunlight or artificial lighting and is protected from dust. A small glass of water in the same space would give a measure of added protection.

Wow, so that is the proper care of this material. If it is left mounted on metal pesi, will it crack? Is it the same if it were mounted on an all wood stand? Also, what does the water do? Thanks!

[A. G. Maisey]

The water supposedly keeps humidity in the air.

Museums keep ivory in humidity & temperature controlled conditions. I cannot afford this, but I do have a lot of ivory, not only hilts, but also ivory carvings. I remember that 40+ years ago, before having and selling ivory got you branded as one of Satan's representatives on Earth, and in any case, just plain evil, dealers in ivory always had a container of water in the case with the ivory. Even in the 1950's museums had containers of water in the cases containing ivory. I don't know if it works, but it certainly doesn't do any harm.

If a hilt, ivory or otherwise has been on a keris for a long time, and the pesi begins to rust, the rust will expand and crack the hilt. A wooden display stand with a wooden support peg should be perfectly safe.

[Jean]

According to the late Martin Kerner, the hilt seems to depict Bima (see the hair bun) and I would agree with Marco about the East Java origin.
I hope that you can remove the hilt without breaking it further, good luck! Personally I would try to re-glue it with Superglue if you can close the gap on top of the crack by applying pressure.
Regards

[Paul B.]

A similar Bima handle with Balinese blade (?) and unknown dress.
Pics from Czerny auction.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean,

I've always had a bit of a problem in accepting this identification of Martin's. I was never able to get a definitive source from him as to why this hair-bun should necessarily be a Bhima identifier, and I've not been able to locate any reference myself where a Dvarapala with a hair-bun was positively identified by an accepted authority as Bhima.

I do not accept that every time we see a Dvarapala --- and the nature of one of these figural hilts is in fact the nature of a Dvarapala --- we should automatically accept we are looking at Bhima.

I would be very grateful if somebody could provide a solid foundation for this identification of Martin's.

[David]

I would be interested to learn more on this identification as well. My understanding from searching for images of Bhima as depicted in Jawa and Bali is that the hairstyle is that is most often used is how we see Bhima in wayang theatre. I have also included a Bali hilt (albeit a contemporary carving) that is most probably intended to be Bhima with this same hairstyle.

[David]

Here also we see a temple Dvarapala with this top of the head hair bun. Can we assume this Dvarapala is supposed to be Bhima based solely upon this hairstyle??? :shrug:
These Dvarapala are Balinese. They don't seem to show any attributed that can confuse them with Bhima, but they do have this hair style. BTW, this style of a hair bun on the top of the head can be found on Dvarapala throughout South East Asia, including Cambodia and Thailand.

[David]

A similar Bima handle with Balinese blade (?) and unknown dress.
Pics from Czerny auction.
Interesting keris. What do you suspect it is a Balinese blade though?

[apolaki]

Here also we see a temple Dvarapala with this top of the head hair bun. Can we assume this Dvarapala is supposed to be Bhima based solely upon this hairstyle??? :shrug:
These Dvarapala are Balinese. They don't seem to show any attributed that can confuse them with Bhima, but they do have this hair style. BTW, this style of a hair bun on the top of the head can be found on Dvarapala throughout South East Asia, including Cambodia and Thailand.

So they are the ones to blame for the "man-bun?"

[David]

So they are the ones to blame for the "man-bun?"
LOL!!!
:D :D :D

[Jean]

Jean,

I've always had a bit of a problem in accepting this identification of Martin's. I was never able to get a definitive source from him as to why this hair-bun should necessarily be a Bhima identifier, and I've not been able to locate any reference myself where a Dvarapala with a hair-bun was positively identified by an accepted authority as Bhima.

I do not accept that every time we see a Dvarapala --- and the nature of one of these figural hilts is in fact the nature of a Dvarapala --- we should automatically accept we are looking at Bhima.

I would be very grateful if somebody could provide a solid foundation for this identification of Martin's.

Yes Alan, I agree and this is why I said: "According to Martin Kerner...". I came across another possible identification of this figure as Ravana but without solid evidence as well.
Regards

[Jean]

I would be interested to learn more on this identification as well. My understanding from searching for images of Bhima as depicted in Jawa and Bali is that the hairstyle is that is most often used is how we see Bhima in wayang theatre. I have also included a Bali hilt (albeit a contemporary carving) that is most probably intended to be Bhima with this same hairstyle.

You are correct David, see the attached balinese Bhima figure made from iron wood but I don't know if this hair style is exclusive or not. Your dvarapala picture does not depict Bima but a punakawan IMO.

[Marcokeris]

Two pics about the hilt
one is from Gaspard de Marval (Le Monde du Kris)
the other from Holstein book (Contribution etudes armes orientales)

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, yes, I understood that you took the safe path and let Martin have the attribution, thus I was not questioning you, but rather asking the world at large if anybody knew of any authoritative source for Martin's attribution.

Jean, you have shown us a rather slight, pleasant looking figure carved from wood that you tell us is a representation of Bhima. This figure has a snake around its neck.

Which Hindu deity is very often depicted with a snake around his neck?

Does Bhima wear a snake around his neck?

David has shown us a couple of figures that he identifies as Dvarapalas, I'm assuming that he has taken this designation from the same source as he took the images, because before we can decide if a figure is truly a guardian (ie, dvarapala) we need to place it in context. But if they are not Dvarapalas why should we necessarily name them as Punakawans? These figures are totally removed from context, so we cannot really designate them as anything.

We really do need somebody who is recognised as expert in this field to tell us the things we do not know. Guesses and opinions from laymen are not a lot of use. What I mean by "expert" is a recognised authority in this specific field of art history, somebody like Bernet Kempers, or Fontein, or Kinney, or Klokke, or Kieven, or van Bemmel --- or any other recognised authority in the field of classical Javanese art. Having a high level of knowledge in one field does not necessarily mean that a person has a high level of knowledge in a related field.

Marco has given us a couple of additional images, one of which is identified as the old grab-bag of Raksasa, which is probably fair enough. I've got several hilts that have hair buns, and if they have fangs, I'd be more or less content to call them Raksasas.

This identification of keris hilt figures has been an ongoing problem for a very long time. I have found from experience that it is close to a total waste of time to talk to present day carvers about this. The answers might be buried somewhere in some obscure paper, but I have a great many papers on file, and I have not found anything helpful yet. Standard texts do not seem be too interested in this ID question. Respected people in Balinese & Javanese society seem to contradict one another and hold fast to their own opinions.

Helena van Bemmel had a book published around 25 years ago that is a comparative study of SE Asian Dvarapalas with specifically Dvarapalas in Indonesia that are still in place, but even that does not help a whole lot with specific identification. The whole thing is this:- as people from a Western cultural base we expect that if we see a figure carved as something that resembles a God, or a Demon, or whatever, then we should be able to give it a name. In fact those Gods, Demons & whatever are formless, the statue only exists to personify the invisible force. Dvarapalas have a pretty generic form that brings into the mind of the viewer the idea of protection, but that protective force is present without the Dvarapala, and the idea of protection that the figure conjures up in the mind of a viewer has the effect of concentrating the protective force.

I believe most people who follow the keris discussions in this forum are well aware of the ideas of the World we can see, and the World that we cannot see. Gods, Demons and Dvarapalas are from the world that we cannot see, they are pockets of force, all the statues do is personify them for people who do not yet have the ability to conjure them without a point of focus.

I feel that we need to be exceptionally careful about trying to place names on things that we do not understand. This is the reason that I would very much like to find somebody who knows one hell of a lot more than I do about how to affix identities to the figures we see used as keris hilts, and also Javanese/Balinese statues in general.

[Marcokeris]

About the world we cannot see as rightly Mr. Masey said .....Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli will publish a new book in English "The invisible world of the kris" a compendium on the esoteric, legendary, mythological and magical aspects of kris

http://www.enciclopediadelledonne.it/biografie/vanna-scolari-ghiringhelli/

[A. G. Maisey]

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

[Marcokeris]

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

Of course! when Mrs. Vanna will publish the book (the text is ready but the book not yet published) I will immediately give informations here in the forum

[David]

You are correct David, see the attached balinese Bhima figure made from iron wood but I don't know if this hair style is exclusive or not. Your dvarapala picture does not depict Bima but a punakawan IMO.
Beautiful wooden carving of Bhima Jean. I love it.
Yes, i am aware that the photos i posted are nor Bhima. My question was rhetorical. I posted these dvarapala because they had the hairstyle people were claiming indicated Bhima, but i was sure they were not, in fact, Bhima. I can't really speak to the Punakawan question at this point. What i can say to Alan's question is that yes, these statues were identified as dvarapala from the source i grabbed them from and they are indeed acting as guardians outside of temples in Bail. I would have to investigate further to answer which temples those were as i did not pay close attention when i found them, but they dod seem to be in place as guardians for those temple and so i assumed that dvarapala would indeed be the proper designation for them.

[David]

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?
I don't doubt that Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture, but i must say that while showing many interesting images of keris hilts, i have found both of her hilt books somewhat devoid of any really useful information. Though i would still be interested in this new book.
On that subject however, i am afraid that i must don my moderator hat here and suggest that any information on how this new book can be ordered should be addressed in a Swap Forum post. ;)

[Marcokeris]

I don't doubt that Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture, but i must say that while showing many interesting images of keris hilts, i have found both of her hilt books somewhat devoid of any really useful information. Though i would still be interested in this new book.
On that subject however, i am afraid that i must don my moderator hat here and suggest that any information on how this new book can be ordered should be addressed in a Swap Forum post. ;)

I'lldoit

[Jean]

Jean, you have shown us a rather slight, pleasant looking figure carved from wood that you tell us is a representation of Bhima. This figure has a snake around its neck.

Which Hindu deity is very often depicted with a snake around his neck?

Does Bhima wear a snake around his neck?



Hello Alan,
You are right that my figure wears a snake around its neck (Bhima being the enemy of the snakes) but I rather identified the figure as Bhima from its dark skin and gada (mace). Have you got a different opinion? I have a similar figure depicting Arjuna (or Rama) with its bow.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Marco.

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.

In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.

Jean, I have no opinion at all on who this figure might be intended to represent Jean. I feel that probably one would need to know the carver in order to know his intentions. What I do know is that if this totogan is intended to represent Bhima, it is a very atypical representation.

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

[David]

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.
In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.
Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective . ;)

[Jean]

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

Hello Alan,
See the attached pic. I selected the other pic to better show the hairdesss in wayang style.
Regards

[Jean]

Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective . ;)

Regarding the last book from Vanna: "Kris hilts, masterpieces of South-East Asian art", she asked me (and probably some Italian collectors also) to help her identifying some very rare pieces from the collection but I was unable to give her any justified opinion. So she wisely chose to be very careful about the identification of these hilts.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Jean.

Yes, it does look like a serious donger, but there is nothing else I can see in this representation that would incline me to think I was looking at Bhima.

Bhima is a very serious heavy. A Wide Boy. A hit man. He is not a pleasant young man with an other-worldly expression on his face.

In Bali Hindu iconography, Classical Javanese iconography, Hindu iconography, the serpent around the neck or across the shoulder is normally associated with Siwa.

But this little statue is Balinese, and Balinese carvers often have a mind of their own about how well known personages should be shown. Personally, I would not attempt to give this charming little gentleman any name at all.

[Marcokeris]

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?
I have receive this day the news about the new Vanna Ghiringhelli book

[Jean]

The book is not yet available on Amazon but it will be on some Italian bookshops from 14th November at the price of 38 Euros. Great! :)
We badly need some kris events for boosting our spirits during this confinement period!
Regards

[kai]

Thanks, Mario!

Sounds like the event will be in Italian only, doesn't it?

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

Thanks, Mario!

Sounds like the event will be in Italian only, doesn't it?

Regards,
Kai
I think in Italian yes

[Anthony G.]

I think in Italian yes

Thank you. I managed to place an order for this book. Hopefully can get it.

[kai]

Thanks, Mario!

Here's the link for the lecture on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_CpxlR2T8Q

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

Thanks, Mario!

Here's the link for the lecture on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_CpxlR2T8Q

Regards,
Kai

Moderator Note: Marco, you cannot post links to the sale of this book on this forum. Open up a thread in the Keris Swap for that.

[Mickey the Finn]

Discussion about the identity of the gada/mace toting personage caught my attention. The material to follow is mostly from Wikipedia and Vedicfeed, and does not reflect my opinion about the identity of the personage; I don't know enough about the subject to have formed an opinion. It's food for thought, or more fodder for speculation.
Balarama is often depicted with a serpent canopy. He is mentioned at vedicfeed as being the incarnation of Shesha Naag, the Nagaraja, associated with Vishnu. Vedicfeed also says that Balarama is an avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu incarnated as Krishna, and that Shesha Naag is a manifestation of Vishnu. When Balarama "died"/ "disappeared"/ "reached the state of Yoga Samadhi", a spirit in the shape of a white snake came out of his mouth. Balarama isn't depicted with a serpent around his neck, but there's a definite association.
Religion.wikia.org says "Balarama is almost always [italics mine] depicted as being fair skinned...". There is one 19th C. Nathdwara painting of Balarama and Revati, and Balarama is depicted with blue skin and yellow garments, including a yellow turban. However, he wields a plow in this painting, not a gada/mace. He may have roughly seven bulbous knots in his black hair, or they may be a serpent canopy; it's hard to tell from the picture.
And although Shiva is known for the serpent around his neck, he is not known to wield a mace.
Hanuman does wield a mace, but...
I'll conclude now.
Mickey

[Athanase]

Hello,

I'm reviving this thread because I finally managed to remove the handle using a heat gun.
The blade is 46cm long.

There are remnants of gold Kinatha on the top of the gonjo, but on the sides as well, you can see that originally there were lozenges, triangles, and plant motifs.

I haven't been able to remove the base of the Palembang-style pendokok. The copper is very thin, glued with resin. The problem is that once the resin is hot and melted, the metal is so thin and flexible that you can't pull it off without crushing it against the Pesi, thus jamming it.

The handle is well-proportioned for the blade, but I find its style more Javanese than Balinese (unlike the blade).

[Sajen]

In respect of the hilt, my personal preference would be to leave exactly as it is, no restoration attempts, but demount from the blade and keep separate in a situation that would be kind to ivory, ideally this would be controlled humidity & temperature, but for most of us this is not possible. Certainly in a situation where it is not exposed to sunlight or artificial lighting and is protected from dust. A small glass of water in the same space would give a measure of added protection.

I would bathe the ivory hilt for one week in linseed oil, the crack may get closed. ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

This advice is not from me, it was given me many years ago by a recognised authority in museum restoration & conservation, I'm only passing it on.

"Do not use linseed oil on ivory, ivory is a very dense material, linseed oil will not penetrate ivory, but it can cause discoloration & other damage.
The oils to use on ivory are high quality mineral oils, oils like medicinal paraffin."

Linseed oil used correctly can be beneficial for wood, but must not be used on ivory.

In fact, my personal experience is that I have never had much luck with closing up a crack in ivory.

In Indonesia there is a saying:-

"Tiada gading tanpa retak" = "There is no ivory without a crack"

This is understood as:- "Nothing is perfect."

[Athanase]

Since I received it, the ivory has given way.

In fact, the handle had already been completely broken in two (or even three pieces), then glued back together. And it might not have been the first time it had been glued in that spot, because on the side I can see an older repair with a small ivory nail to help hold the two glued parts together.
On one side there's also a missing piece that's been filled with a piece recarved from bone.
Now that I've removed the two parts of the handle, I'm thinking of trying to remove the old glue with acetone and then attempting a clean re-glue using the glue we use for fossils at my work (acrylic glue: Paraloid B72).

[A. G. Maisey]

I thought that might have been the case when I followed the cracks.

I have repaired more than a few hilts in many different materials, my adhesive of choice is 5 minute Araldite. The joining surfaces must be absolutely clean & dry, I like to roughen the joining surfaces with cabinet paper or a sharp pointed tool before applying the adhesive & this adhesive can be tinted with artist's powder colour. Hold firmly in place by hand until the adhesive sets, before that adhesive hardens I go over the hilt using a 2x or 3x loupe & dentists picks and clean away any excess adhesive. Sharpened bambu sate sticks are also good for this purpose.

Re roughening surfaces, it is best to leave the one or two millimeters adjoining the visible edge of the crack without roughening in order to make it easier to get a tight fit of those visible edges.

[Sajen]

This advice is not from me, it was given me many years ago by a recognised authority in museum restoration & conservation, I'm only passing it on.

"Do not use linseed oil on ivory, ivory is a very dense material, linseed oil will not penetrate ivory, but it can cause discoloration & other damage.
The oils to use on ivory are high quality mineral oils, oils like medicinal paraffin."

Linseed oil used correctly can be beneficial for wood, but must not be used on ivory.

In fact, my personal experience is that I have never had much luck with closing up a crack in ivory.

In Indonesia there is a saying:-

"Tiada gading tanpa retak" = "There is no ivory without a crack"

This is understood as:- "Nothing is perfect."

Hello Alan,

This crack in a tumbok lada hilt from ivory I've closed with a one week bath in linseed oil. The crack was opened for ca. 3 mm, now my fingernails can't fit inside anymore.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

As I said Detlef, my comment was not my advice, it was advice given to me a long time ago by a lead conservator who had an extremely impressive resume. This man was heavily relied upon by a couple of major museums.

I have never tried linseed oil on ivory.

Looking at your hilt that has come together I might give it a try on something unimportant, I've got a lot of ivory, I can probably find something with a crack that I'd be prepared to try it on.

Tell me, was your linseed oil boiled oil or raw oil?

Did you demount the hilt before soaking?

If you demounted, did you clean out the tang hole & tang before remounting?

[Sajen]

As I said Detlef, my comment was not my advice, it was advice given to me a long time ago by a lead conservator who had an extremely impressive resume. This man was heavily relied upon by a couple of major museums.

I have never tried linseed oil on ivory.

Looking at your hilt that has come together I might give it a try on something unimportant, I've got a lot of ivory, I can probably find something with a crack that I'd be prepared to try it on.

Tell me, was your linseed oil boiled oil or raw oil?

Did you demount the hilt before soaking?

If you demounted, did you clean out the tang hole & tang before remounting?

Hello Alan,

The linseed oil I used was cold pressed, not boiled. The hilt wasn't demount, I had noticed that the crack before became bigger and I got the impression that I needed to do something. Frankly said, it was the first and only time that I used this method on ivory. This is now some years ago.

Regards,
Detlef

[Athanase]

If it works with linseed oil, I imagine it could also work with the mineral oils Alan mentioned.

The advantage is that they are colorless and would preserve the whiteness of the ivory.

[Sajen]

If it works with linseed oil, I imagine it could also work with the mineral oils Alan mentioned.

The advantage is that they are colorless and would preserve the whiteness of the ivory.

I guess it's like this! But I can assure you that the colour of the ivory hasn't changed by the bath. ;)

BTW, very nice keris! Congrats!

[Sajen]

Since I received it, the ivory has given way.

In fact, the handle had already been completely broken in two (or even three pieces), then glued back together. And it might not have been the first time it had been glued in that spot, because on the side I can see an older repair with a small ivory nail to help hold the two glued parts together.
On one side there's also a missing piece that's been filled with a piece recarved from bone.
Now that I've removed the two parts of the handle, I'm thinking of trying to remove the old glue with acetone and then attempting a clean re-glue using the glue we use for fossils at my work (acrylic glue: Paraloid B72).

Please show us the result! Maybe also pics of the broken hilt.

[Interested Party]

I guess it's like this! But I can assure you that the colour of the ivory hasn't changed by the bath. ;)

BTW, very nice keris! Congrats!

I had a nice piece of very white hippo ivory that I yellowed with linseed I wasn't thinking:( For already yellow ivories I cannot tell any visible difference. I have tried to stick to mineral oil after that mistake.

[Sajen]

I had a nice piece of very white hippo ivory that I yellowed with linseed I wasn't thinking:( For already yellow ivories I cannot tell any visible difference. I have tried to stick to mineral oil after that mistake.

Uuups! And yes, the ivory handle above was yellow before already. So I had good luck. So it will be like Alan quoted above. It's always good to exchange experiences. :)