Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[BladeMan]

Hello Everyone,

can someone help me out, point me a direction (to a book or another source) or may know anything about that mark on an Italian Sword dated ca. 1580. Wheter it is a makers mark, inspection mark or whatever. It is the only mark on the blade, at the Ricasso. I have seen similiar ones from/out of Veneto but never a single one like this.

Thanks!
Ray

[fernando]

Hello Ray ... welcome to our forum :)
You are right in that this is a mark showing in Italian (Veneto) blades of the XV-XVI centuries, as indeed these often appear in a multiple mode and not one alone. I would venture that this is more the type of region or quality mark and not a smith's signature.
However these are all guesses; other members will show up with more knowledgeable comments about it.
Meanwhile we expect you to show us pictures of the whole sword, to let us see what we are talking about.

[corrado26]

I found this mark in a German book: "Wendelin Boeheim, Handbuch der Waffenkunde". The translation is: Unknown, probably mark of a blade smith at Brescia 16th century.
corrado26

[corrado26]

I found this mark in a German book: "Wendelin Boeheim, Handbuch der Waffenkunde". The translation is: Unknown, probably mark of a blade smith at Brescia 16th century. A scan of a page of the Catalogue of the Wallace Collection, European Arms and Armour shows under number A495 this mark on a sword from about 1490.

corrado26

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Udo for furnishing these entries from the most referenced compendiums of these many markings found on blades. It is really helpful to have these to view for readers who may not have these resources.

As Fernando has well noted, these markings, commonly termed 'twig' marks are seemingly collectively used in Italy (typically North) by many producers and often in varied configurations. While we are uncertain of the exact meaning or purpose of these stamps, they do seem to serve perhaps as some type of guild or production mark possibly for identification or compliance reasons.

Clearly, in the blade trade business, the presence of the marks became associated with and known to represent quality in recognition, so they were often used spuriously by others.
Actually this single mark is typical in Italian context, but as far as I have known, not copied in Germany or Spain as many other marks were.
"Armi Bianchi Italiene" by Boccia & Coelho (1975) has a great appendix which includes many of these marks in configurations, which will illustrate the kinds of variation.

Actually I have seen numbers of blades with singular marks like this, but they have never been deemed aligned with a particular maker.

[fernando]

Apparently you guys skipped over a "detail" in that Ray is already aware that these (Veneto) marks exist, although in numbers of more than one; what he is asking is whether we are familiar with them only showing in one single presence; reason why i didn't post images of the 'multi' ones in the first place. Also we haven't yet had a picture of the whole sword, to then enable us to weave considerations on it.
But let me then play the accomplice and upload a couple pages of Armi Bianchi Italiane, where these "ferri di molino" (as they call them) appear. Pity this great work authors do not define the purpose of these marks.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the Boccia & Coelho pages Fernando. I agree in most cases it is beneficial to have images of the whole sword, but for me I am OK with this image for now. I guess the reason is that this singular usage may indicate a 'trade blade' character rather than a completed sword matter.

To clarify what I meant by that designation is that it seems the singular use of this stamped mark on a blade seems to indicate Italian manufacture, but obviously that cannot be stated for certain. It simply has not seemed to me that these 'twig' marks turn up on German or other blades, and particularly not in singular case.

I think that these type marks are more of a mundane administrative device than the more distinctive makers or guild marks, which were often a matter of record as they involved compliances and ordinances. For example, these may indicate batches of swords involved in a specified contract or order.

I have seen these single marks of the twig type on blades, on schiavona and another even on a kaskara (backsword blade most unusual on these). It would seem of course that the 'blade' was independent of the sword assembly in origin in these cases, obviously with the kaskara :)

[BladeMan]

Thanks a lot guys, that was really helpful and is interesting.

Fernando is right, i was or am aware of that or similiar marks but i have seen them only in triples yet like in the pics of Fernando and corrado, not just one single mark. What i was wondering is if the single mark is the same maker/source as the triple marks or maybe something different that was copied or was similiar by accident.

And here is a pic of the sword in total.

[Bob A]

Deleted

[fernando]

Splendid !
Sorry my ignorance; isn't this a Storta ?
I am not qualified to judge on this sword's properties but, i would dare to sustain that, its 'lonely' ferro di molino mark looks very real. But what do i know ? :o . Only that i could swear that a mark/s with the same shape, depth and all, resides somewhere in our forum.

[BladeMan]

Thanks fernando! :)

And yes, that is a (two handed) Storta.
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams.

[fernando]

By the way Ray, does this beautiful sword belong in your personal collection ?

[Philip]

Splendid !
Sorry my ignorance; isn't this a Storta ?
I am not qualified to judge on this sword's properties but, i would dare to sustain that, its 'lonely' ferro di molino mark looks very real. .

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ray for sharing this amazing storta (well called Fernando!).
The interesting raised rib in the grip reminds me of zweihander swords of the period, and it is tempting to wonder if this may have been en suite.
We know that rapiers often came in sets in this manner with alternate hand daggers (typically termed left hand daggers ).

As far as the singular use of the well known form seen here, as Fernando has noted, surely we have seen this instance before, in fact many times, but finding it will take some of the sleuths here. I know it is possible as I am always amazed at how some of the guys here find stuff posted some time before, Rick and Fernando himself are the two that come to mind in pulling up these exemplars.

Ray, actually that is a well placed observation, that perhaps the mark (though with some commonality it seems in the makers community) might have the same origin as some of the multiple groupings. Again, as we know these marks were not to a specific maker, possibly their use in number or varied configurations might have been peculiar to a certain one.
With many commonly known devices found on blades, we know that certain ones were favored by certain makers.

In the case for example of Wundes, the use of a kings head was known to be a mark used by him and his family. There are varied examples of blades where the same kings head is punched in repeated number in groupings, sometimes as many as five or more.

This seems a prime indicator that number of marks, of the same kind, and in varied configuration, could have some esoteric significance known in the time, but unrecorded and now lost. It is yet another of the conundrums that bring sleepless nights to obsessive researchers such as yours truly :)

[Jim McDougall]

Nando, it fits the characteristics of size and configuration that would identify it as a storta -- a short, cutlass-type hilt weapon with a single edged blade, popular in northern Italy. This example has a blade with a deeper curve and is somewhat narrower than the majority. (Many tend to widen somewhat at the tip and have a clipped point as in the medieval falchion, as well) But anomalies are to be expected in a type that was widely used over an extended period of time.

I also agree on the mark. It's on several Italian blades in my collection, and appears singly as well as in groups.

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

[BladeMan]

@fernando, Yes it is in my collection.

The blade actually widens up towards the tip just a little at the last quarter, right where the blade becomes double edged.
But yes, it's overall narrower and deeper curved then the majority.
Frankly, those "anomalies" is what makes the most attraction for me.

[Philip]

Philip we crossed posts! As always, perfect description and insight on these stortas, and well noted on the case for anomalies in them which better describes the reasons for the many variations typically seen.

Thanks, Jim. The more of these things I see, the more variety in blade shapes there seem to be. It's easy to assume that there's a "classic form" of blade on these things that forms a defining benchmark, when you look at the gorgeous "droolers" with Brescian chiseled blades in Boccia / Coelho, Armi Bianche Italiane. The typical contour is indeed the type with the pronounced "Bowie-knife style" clipped point.

Some perspective is gained from a selection of somewhat more plebian examples in Roberto Gotti's book Caino, which delves into the sword-blade-making industry in this small Brescian town, one of Italy's several counterparts to Passau and Solingen. Here can be seen blade types of slight curvature, and edges that are radiused to a gently upturned point -- imagine a short version of a shashka or liuyedao blade. And recently in an online auction catalog I saw one with a prominent raised yelman, making it resemble a snubnosed kilij.

Re: terminology -- These weapons were actually known by several names, the most frequent in the literature being storta ( plural: storte ). This may be a derived from a vernacular term used in the region of Veneto, where these large knives were especially popular.

An alternative term is coltella, plural coltelle , related to the standard Italian word for knife, coltello (being a Texas guy you're no doubt familiar with the Spanish cuchillo. ) Lionello Boccia also includes the term coltellaccio in the book referenced previously.

[fernando]

... Re: terminology -- These weapons were actually known by several names, the most frequent in the literature being storta ( plural: storte ).This may be a derived from a vernacular term used in the region of Veneto, where these large knives were especially popular...
So interesting; to the point in that, the term storta (twisted, unstraight) possibly an allusion to this sword guard, made a career in dictionaries, as nowadays attributed to a scimitar or a cutlass.

[CSinTX]

Very nice sword! Please post more of your collection if you don't mind. Would love to see other unique pieces.

[Jim McDougall]

Philip, thank you for the great further insights into these fascinating short sabres of North Italy. As you point out, the terminology does present challenges for collectors outside the Italian language sphere, as the singular and plural versions of 'storta' seem the same but for the a or e at the end.

Also the many variations on the blades are understandable, as these regions of Veneto in Italy were really in such proximity with the cities whose names are well known in the annals of famed blade production. The makers in these cities, whose names are in many cases legendary, clearly were among the most innovative in their field, and there appears to have been profound competition in developing ever more effective blade forms.

In these areas and with this brisk competition and developmental innovation among blade producers, it seems inevitable that descriptive terms, derived from various vernacular terms, would become applied collectively in many cases outside the original specific.

Here in Texas (as you noted) there is of course a pretty good spectrum of typically large bladed knives, but regardless of intricacies in character of features, the broad term 'Bowie' reigns in the vernacular.
The Spanish cognate 'cuchillo' to the Italian 'coltello', is probably more confined to the Mexican vernacular, but even there other slang terms often apply.

Thank you so much also for always bring up such great book titles and references! I absolutely must get the book 'Caino' as you have noted.
Here again, the use of a place name has been interpreted often as a makers name, and entwined in the 'lore' of writers who have woven it into the fiber of ever repeated 'references' in published material.

Getting back to the case at hand from the OP, looking at maps of the region of Veneto (where Venice is capital) the other locations in this region and contiguous proximity include Belluno ( in north with Ferrara to the south) of course aligned with the mysterious Andrea Ferara; Milan to the west; and naturally Brescia as you have well noted. ……...the potential for cross use of the stamped marks we are discussing is not only likely, but probable.

While the makers names associated with these locations are of course well known in some cases, but the numbers of workers and shops not well known must have been notable.

[batjka]

Beautiful sword! Curious that it has a relatively short blade, but a two-handed hilt. Although many Lange Messers had a long hilt, which is utilized in fighting with that particular weapon. Perhaps there is an overlapping of traditions between Germanic lands and northern Italy.

[Victrix]

Yes interesting with two-handed hilt. May we have measurements, please?

[Philip]

So interesting; to the point in that, the term storta (twisted, unstraight) possibly an allusion to this sword guard, made a career in dictionaries, as nowadays attributed to a scimitar or a cutlass.

Nando, that is an interesting explanation and yes, many of the examples you see in person and in publications have a characteristic S shape to the quillons. But Gotti's book which I referred to previously, contains several examples of storte which have D shaped knucklebows with crab claws below; one even incorporates a shell guard for good measure.

If one translation of storta is "unstraight", or perhaps bent, could that refer to the distinct curvature of the single-edged blades, or at least the increasing arc of the edge as it goes into the "bowie-knife-type" tip? Consider that these weapons first appeared in a culture which throughout the Middle Ages and at the dawn of the Renaissance was pretty much wedded to the notion of a straight blade -- even the single edged backsword shape (mezza spada) had a point that was more or less in-line to the central axis of the blade itself.

[Philip]

.


In these areas and with this brisk competition and developmental innovation among blade producers, it seems inevitable that descriptive terms, derived from various vernacular terms, would become applied collectively in many cases outside the original specific.

Here in Texas (as you noted) there is of course a pretty good spectrum of typically large bladed knives, but regardless of intricacies in character of features, the broad term 'Bowie' reigns in the vernacular.
The Spanish cognate 'cuchillo' to the Italian 'coltello', is probably more confined to the Mexican vernacular, but even there other slang terms often apply.

Getting back to the case at hand from the OP, looking at maps of the region of Veneto (where Venice is capital) the other locations in this region and contiguous proximity include Belluno ( in north with Ferrara to the south) of course aligned with the mysterious Andrea Ferara; Milan to the west; and naturally Brescia as you have well noted. ……...the potential for cross use of the stamped marks we are discussing is not only likely, but probable.

While the makers names associated with these locations are of course well known in some cases, but the numbers of workers and shops not well known must have been notable.

Jim, here are some tidbits to address the points raised in your post.

1. Terminology and linguistics can get understandably complex in Italy, which was essentially a conglomeration of states and subcultures during the centuries between the fall of the Roman Empire and the 1870 reunification. For that time, different regions were fought over and ruled by all sorts of foreign powers, from the Moors to the French, the Germanic Holy Roman Empire, and Spain - so you have the added dimension of alien ruling classes on top of the local yokels who were there for donkey years before. Not to mention Genoese and Venetian merchants and mercenaries returning home and bringing foreign habits with them. The vernacular literature took many generations to move away from classical and vulgar Latin to what we would recognize as Italian today.

2. Because of a well developed guild system (especially in the north), a good number of Italian armorers working over the past 5-odd centuries has been documented. Some early makers of plate armor are known only by their initials, but their distinguishing marks have been recorded and we can date their products stylistically. Modern authors have done a lot to make this info available to us. For a general intro, Enzio Malatesta's Armi ed Armaioli d'Italia (Rome, 1946) is comprehensive and is occasionally available at auction. Carlo deVita's Armaioli Romani (Rome, 1970) covers just the region of Latium. For firearms, there is a wealth of info in Der Neue Stöckel and in Nolfo di Carpegna's Brescian Firearms (hooray, at last a book in English! , Rome, 1997)

3. There was a lot of specialization in the pre-industrial Italian arms manufacturing trade, fine arms were often designed and put together by gunsmiths and cutlers using components sourced from special artisans known to them and their customers. Certain towns with their guilds sometimes specialized in the extreme: Caino, Bergamo, and Belluno were famed for their blade workshops, their products sent to Milan, Venice, and all over to be hilted. Celalba, in the Papal States, was known for flintlocks of a specific design. Pistoia (from which the word pistol is supposedly derived) mostly made gun barrels, and lots of them.

4. Andrea Ferrara .. legendary, almost iconic especially in the universe of Scottish broadswords! Yet as enigmatic in his own way, as the Passau wolf. Worthy of a separate forum thread. How 'bout it , Jim?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you again Philip! as always fantastic detail and insight into the true character and circumstances of these sword producing regions, their marks and guilds etc.
Great note on the enigmatic Andrea Ferara, whose mystery remains a matter of debate and contention as much as ever. Indeed I would think a thread on that topic would be worthy of entry as you suggest, but some more research and consideration seems prudent before such an attempt is made.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually in seeking more on Andrea Ferara for the discussion Philip has suggested, and searching through notes, passim, I found some interesting reference to the Italian mark of the OP here.
It is apparently termed MARCA A MOSCA and colloquially 'the twig'.
According to a discussion post from 2010 (Javier Ramos, SFI, 5/24/10) this markings was apparently an arsenal mark from Venice.
It occurs on many sword forms from zweihanders to falchions and of course storta.

He offers two references as support (and plz forgive my attempt at rewriting these Italian titles):
1. "Musei e Gallerie di Milano. Museo Poldi Pezzoli Armi Europee del Medeiro al'eta Moserna II Armi del Vicino Oriente".
by Paolo Slavich , Milano, 1986
2. "Musei e Gallerie di Milano Museo d' Arti Applicate"
by Piersergio Allevi, Milano, 1988

These references seemed remarkably intricate and suggest research well founded, but I have not corroborated further. Still the idea of the notable occurrence of this mark in singular on various blades and typically blade center in upper third of blade does seem plausibly something used in such 'arsenal' manner.
Its inclusion in the varied groupings associated with either makers, shops or locations as seen in "Armi Bianchi Italiene" cannot be readily explained but the presumed arsenal use seems to have been mid to late 16th c.

The thing I would question as far as the 'arsenal' use, is that a number of these singular use 'twig' marks occur on rapier blades, c. 1580s, and these are typically regarded in this period as very non military weapons.

I hope this might help in further research Ray.

[cornelistromp]

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

[fernando]

It looks like a LOT OF INK (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25126&highlight=Hand+Half+Sword) has been spent in the discussion of this mark, both in origin as in purpose ... as well as in terminology.
Origin is consensually accepted as that from the Veneto area, while its purpose is 'arguably' to identify an arsenal. While in one hand Javier Ramos (for the case) textually says "I would have to check if my memory fails again but I remember vaguely that the "marca a mosca" (fly mark) is not an armourer mark but an arsenal mark (Venice)", On the other hand, the fact that the mark appears either single or in trios, does denote that, for an (one) arsenal mark, is somehow inconsistent. Also interesting that there seems to be an intention to place the central of these (triple) marks in a different position. As for the mark naming, beyond the english connotation "twigs", i wonder why some Italian sources call it MOSCA (fly), and Boccia & Coelho, who are not ignaros in these things, prefer to call it FERRI DI MULINO (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferro_da_mulino).


.

[Jim McDougall]

The ink spot has proven invaluable in networking to other discussions and threads concerning these Italian marks, which as shown may be referred to as 'twigs' or 'marca a mosca'.
My reason for bringing up the suggestion of the single mark being a possible arsenal mark for Venice is that it was an interesting possibility which seemed worthy of mention in a discussion with notable scope in examining these.

As I noted in my previous post, the aspects of this suggestion in which I might dispute the 'arsenal' possibility would be that these turn up on rapier blades, distinctly a civilian weapon of these times.
Also, I would wonder, which arsenal, that of the Doge of Venice? or perhaps the Papal arsenal ? or were there more?

I also realize that I have suggested that these 'twig' (for the sake of discussion) marks were exclusively Italian, which is incorrect, as in my thread of June 2010 I noted the fly marks (aka twigs) were indeed duplicated in Germany. Clearly the German makers applied the known Italian marks spuriously in the same fashion as those of Spain.

Clearly there will be multiple colloquial terms used for these and similar marks in various regions and transliterations. It is of course one of the frustrating perils of the study of arms over many centuries and in many cultures with many languages. I think Philip well described this situation with regard to Italian circumstances as case in point.

There is also the circumstance of assigning certain marks to certain areas in addition to attempting to align them to a particular maker, which has its own futility. In Italy, the Veneto regions encompassed not only Venice, the capital and port, but Caino, Brescia, Belluno, Ferrara and others even Milan.

In the regions of Genoa, which included Lucca and others, it seems the so called sickle marks became the known device inexorably linked to Genoa, yet some authorities believe its use began in Lucca. In those western regions of North Italy the 'sickle' device also became used in multiple and oddly configured arrangements on blades. It has often been suggested that the Genoan association was due to that being the departure port for the blades of these regions.

With these instances, it would seem that these distinctive central devices may have become collectively associated with regions as described. It is notable that in many instances of works on weapons, a mark of these types is often associated with the region to which the sword it occurs upon is attributed. Thus a sword mounted in Brescia, but with a blade from other locations in Veneto, becomes Brescian.

As an interesting anomaly, having distinguished the marca a mosca (twig) to Veneto regions, and the 'Genoan' sickle marks to the centers there, a blade curiously found on a straight blade tulwar has the sickle marks with the twig in the center. Now theres a conundrum!!

[Victrix]

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_blog/2019/5/8/focus-on-the-objects-of-the-exhibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

[Jim McDougall]

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_blog/2019/5/8/focus-on-the-objects-of-the-exhibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.


It REALLY is a great thread! and you bring forth some great points. The arsenal of the Doge at Venice is remarkable, and I do recall the CX (Council of Ten) which seems to appear on a very limited number of weapons. The winged lion of St. Mark also seems limited in occurrence, both of these are described well in Boccia & Coelho. It seems these are seen on some of the schiavona so well associated with the Doge.

Very interesting points you bring up on the 'twig' mark described as the ferri di Mulino in Boccia & Coelho, which seems not only appropriate but telling.
This reference to 'iron mill' obviously lends well to a place producing blades, and I know that I have seen this mark noted as a 'mill rind' as well. The 'rind' is of course the four armed support for the millstone, and the quadrangular nature of this mark in basis is tempting to such association.

I will note here that there are markings used in very similar capacity, which are dentated circles known as 'cog wheels' (Mann, 1962, Wallace Coll. A768).
Here we have another component of the machinery of blade producing mills used as a mark on blades.

What is puzzling is, these marks seem with basic features, but in variation distorted (some of the 'marca mosca; twig; ferri di Mulino) so much so that the numbers of them in Wallace Coll. plates look almost like Rohrschach images.

You make a very good point on the possibility of Italian blades carrying these 'twig' marks possibly reflecting German markings. In looking through Wallace Coll. it seems the propensity of these type marks in German swords is profound, so that possibility is quite plausible. There was so much diffusion of the spurious use of marks, and even movements of makers between countries that it would be difficult to make broad classifications on them. It becomes very much a matter of assessment based on merits and features of each specific weapon.

Great link and often surprising how much important historic detail is included in these kinds of references involving reproduction of classic swords.
On the Gotti book...……….wish I could find one!!! Pretty hard to find, and all there is online with this name is of course the 'Teflon don'. Sometimes pop culture overwhelms serious history.

[kronckew]

I noticed this storta some time on a German website , I believe it was offered by Historica Arma and/or Fricker, did you acguire it recently ?

best,

I questioned that myself earlier. :) It was on the Historica site, as a two handed storta, now taken down after sale.

Apparently the OP, BladeMan, bought it from the noted website recently and posted it here before they updated their site. :).

[BladeMan]

That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated. :)

Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again:
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams


And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

[Jim McDougall]

I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'.

In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms.

As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context.
These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol.

It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely.

Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century..
The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'.

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!!
This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno.

Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c.

Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked).

Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland.

It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.


You bet Jens. As I mentioned we know that German blades were often imported into India (through Mahratha ports I believe) but were trade contacts from Italy active in any direct contact as well? The number of Italian blades seem almost incidental in comparison to German, yet we know the sickle marks (regarded as Genoan) were widely copied on Indian blades.

[Victrix]

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jens,

It’s absolutely fascinating that sword or at least blade making in old days tend to be concentrated to locations with iron, wood and water. Also, in the area of the alps sword making is an ancient craft where the Celts were known to have possessed the secrets of how to make objects out of iron. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is where swords were mostly produced until 19thC when they could be mass produced. I wish we knew more about the sword smiths and their ancient craft.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Victrix,


It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

[fernando]

... It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India...
Well Jens, all those bundles of blades taken by the Portuguese (firangi) for trade in India, were in fact of Italian manufacture.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.


Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire.


Yes Jim you have point, which is interesting, but I do not have the knowlege to answer it, it would take a lot of research, in an area where I have far too little knowledge.

[Victrix]

Very well noted Jens, with the cross use of markings whether punzones, phrases or names or combinations thereof, it is hard to say exactly which sources of blades were traded into India. I suppose it would be a matter as well of what period we are considering, and into which regions. The major ports of Italy, Genoa and Venice, of course carried blades among their goods into many entrepots in their trade networks, and within those probably mingled with shipments continuing to India.

While the Portuguese of course were notably the key early European contact traders into India (hence the term firangi was often taken to mean 'Portuguese' rather than the broader 'foreign'), my question was pertaining to any 'direct' trade with either of those Italian states.

I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities. When I went to a gold shop in an Arabian Gulf soukh 10 years ago to repair a contemporary gold chain, the proprietor gave me a beady eyed look and inquired whether it was “franji” (i.e. Western European, or Swedish in my particular case) gold. In contrast Orthodox or Byzance is called Rûm (as in East Rome or Constantinople) by muslims. So the local Orthodox hospital in Beirut is called Al Roum Hospital. They have used these terms for 1,000 years as far as I know as nations came and went.

[fernando]

Fernando, as you seem to know far more about the subject, I think it must be you ball game:-) - so I retire ...
No ball ... or any other game, Jens; no such reaction needed :confused:. I know no more than what i have read so often. When i get home i may be able to define this in detail.

[fernando]

... I’m pretty sure “firangi” means Frank or Frankish, Jim. This term is used for Western Europeans since crusader days when muslims did not distinguish much between European nationalities...
So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! :) It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

[Jim McDougall]

Struggling through old notes, found this re: Italian blades in India

"...in 1691 we have note of an incident that throws light on the existence of so many European swords in use in India. It appears that in May of that year, Sir John Chardin, agent for the Armenian nation, presented a petition from Bogos Ariel, Davod and Zacaiia Parsijian, Armenian merchants who had contracted with the EIC of England to carry upon their ships the trade which they formerly did with Italy".

It appears that the source of the blades now to be carried are said to be from 'Nuremberg' and to the 'East Indies'. It appears that due to the restrictions in England on receiving German blades due to importing restrictions led to the dispersing of these blades into India. The Mahrathas did not think much of English blades, but very much favored German.

In the events in the Indian Ocean involving the notorious Captain Kidd, a virtual byword for 'pirate', his greatest infraction was the overtaking of a vessel in use in trade for India, and it does seem this was chartered or owned by Armenian merchants.

It would seem that much of the entry of European blades into India by this time was through trade conveyed by Armenian merchants. It would appear that these industrious merchants were instrumental in trade in a number of spheres in addition to India. The conveyance of trade blades into India, whether Italian or German, seem to have been brought in through these kinds of trades vessels by this time in the 17th century.

In the 17th century, the blade making industry in Toledo had faltered, and there was a great reliance on Germany for blades, while Italy still maintained a notable presence in producing them as well. The cross mingling of markings and spurious use of names etc. make the identification of blades to either very difficult in many cases. I am unaware of Portuguese blade producers, and had thought their blades to have been largely Solingen products, much as were the English trade venues.

The material on the Armenian conveyance:
"The Export of European Blades to India"
by Lord Dillon
in 'Archaeological Journal' Vol. LXii , p.67, 69-72

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

For some reason, I am always of the impression that Italy was not particularly involved in any sort of mass export of blades. Most of what I have seen in accounts of Italian swords are that the blade makers produced their blades, which were then sent to hilt makers (for example in Brescia etc) and the sword in entirety was then to the client or armourer.
Many swords in the Wallace collection are seen with Italian blades but German hilts, sometimes even vice versa, so perhaps these were simply remounting exchanges.

I think the most prevalent evidence for exported blades would have been the Genoan (and surrounding cities) which is suggested by the noted copy of the famed sickle marks, which are notably copied by many Indian artisans on their blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Finally got my faithful Elgood, , "Hindu Arms & Ritual",
With the notes concerning the Armenian involvement in the transport of goods including sword blades into India, it is noted this was in the latter 17th c.

As the Portuguese presence began with Vasco de Gama in 1498 at Calicut and Elgood (p.39) notes the assumption that 'European' blades were entering Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from beginning of 16th c.

It is noted further that most of the European blades appear to have been from the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, and those described are rapier blades (p.38). It is also noted that many European blades had passed into Arab and Turk hands and unknown quantities preceded the Portuguese in falling into the hands of the indigenous peoples of India.

In 1514, Pires describes TRADE GOODS SENT FROM VENICE TO INDIA INCLUDING ARMS, so this is interesting as it sounds as if this was via a Portuguese transport.

It is noted that through the 16th century Portuguese relations in Vijayanagara were good and included their supplying allies with arms.
This however seems to have changed in about 1606 when Dutch began challenging Portuguese monopoly and they were defeated by the ruler of Jaffna, with many weapons captured.
Apparently the Marathas also captured many arms from them later, by early 18th c. The Dutch began dominating trade markets and clearly the blades were by this time German.

Tavernier records weapons at Surat as long rapiers probably sold by English or Portuguese, and it seems these were 16th c. with most tending to be German, but some being Spanish and Italian.

Basically it seems that from contact and through 16th century there was a predominance of blades presumably through Portuguese sourcing, but they were not exclusively Italian, but mostly German with a number of Iberian and Italian blades.

By early 17th century, the Dutch as well as EIC became key suppliers and these were primarily German blades. While it is noted that ANDREA FERARA blades were among these, we know of course that these were produced in great number in Solingen from early to mid 17th into 18th century.

[Victrix]

So ... in due context, Portuguese were (also ) Firangi.

Absolutely. It all depends on the context.

[Victrix]

Thanks very much Victrix, and much agreed, the term had far more relation to the Franks or Frankish, and likely had origins in medieval times when the Franks were producing high quality blades such as the Ulfberth and Ingelrii. These were widely exported, though that was tried to be curbed, and it seems the term entered a good number of languages becoming indirectly a term for 'European' I believe. As always a matter of semantics.

Some years ago I had seen references which thought the term meant 'Portuguese' probably for the predominance of Portuguese colonies and trade in subcontinent and I believe in Sri Lanka.

Jens, I cannot allow you to underestimate your knowledge my friend, after all I have learned from you these many years! :) It is a complex question, and perhaps unfairly asked or at least posed. I know if anybody can find it though, you can, in your never ending travels through some of the most esoteric works on India.

For those who are interested in the history of the time from different view points I can highly recommend Amin Maalouf’s The Crusades through Arab Eyes [2004] which uses contemporary Arab chronicles and eye witnesses accounts of the time. From the Foreword: “These latter [contemporary Arab chroniclers] spoke not of Crusades, but of Frankish wars, or ‘the Frankish invasions’. The word designating the Franks was transcribed in many ways, according to the region, author, and period. In the various chronicles, we find Faranj, Faranjat, Ifranj, Ifranjat, and other variants. For the sake of consistency, I have chosen to use the briefest form, Franj, a word which is used in colloquial Arabic even today to designate Westeners, and the French in particular.”

Incidentally, Frankreich, the German word for France, means Land of the Franks.

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.

[Victrix]

Victrix, thank you for this excellent detail and the heads up on that title. I always am grateful when titles and source material are cited and shared as one can never have too much information on these topics.
It truly is fascinating to see how this European word permeated the languages of different spheres to denote essentially 'European' blades.

Although deviating from the key topic here of Italian marks, this term is certainly relevant as the blades carrying these marks (often Italian) are indeed termed and regarded as 'firangi' (and variant terms with the root you describe).

An associated term often seen on European blades (typically Eastern) which is often with the 'sickle' marks described and regarded as either Genoan or Styrian is FRINDIA or FRINGIA. It has really never been fully explained but some regard it as a Holy Roman acronym in a tenuous supposition.

Your earlier point about context is not only pertinent, but essential. When discussing matters involving the kinds of details we typically focus on here, they can be easily be misconstrued without proper qualification. I have learned personally, from many times being corrected, that adamant or broad statements are wide open to scrutiny and misunderstanding.


Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, I apologize for letting the thread off a tangent here but I think Fringia and its variations is the same thing as Firangi which comes from Franji. I understand Arabic is a phonetic language, it does not use the latin alphabet, the swordsmiths did not speak Arabic, and were probably at best semi-literate in their own language anyway. So the word ended up spelled in great many variations. The blades must have been intended for export to lands outside of, or at the fringes of, Europe where there were muslims. I think you are right to use the term European, rather than Western European here, as Austrians and Czechs all would probably also be regarded as Franji in Arab eyes. Fascinating to think that the trade went all the way to India with the ever enterprising Portuguese and Armenians.


While really only indirectly off tangent, it should be noted that the 'sickle marks' which are regarded as 'Genoan' and often bracket the FRINGIA word, are on occasion found with this 'mill rind' (twig, fly) marking in place of the word.
As we are looking at the use and possible origin of this mark of the OP, it is interesting that on occasion it is seen within the sickle marks which at times hold the FRINGIA word. I agree with your explanation of the similarity of Fringia and Firangi, and can see how these might be phonetically transcribed.

What is most unusual however is that on East European swords, many are found with these FRINGIA markings. Is it possible that blades intended for release to Middle Eastern trade, might have ended up used in the European context in which they were produced instead of being exported?

We see the Fringia term written, but I have yet to see any with the word Firangi or its variations. Perplexing !

Still the explanation makes perfect sense. It is good to look further into these Italian markings, and these words which sometimes appear related.

[kronckew]

foreign: outsider, from the roman foraneus, someone from outside your empire/nation.

Firengi phonetically sounds a lot like that. Portugese traders and their latin speaking priests were trading there quite early (as were the egyptians, romans etc. for ages. they likely referred to themselves as foraneus.

Fringe: another word used above. 14c old French ( :) ) Franki Feranki - ferengi - fringy - frenchy (etc. ad nauseum)- word from the latin for the fibrous border or edge of a woven cloth, used here as on the fringes, or beyond the fringes, ie. foreign, firengi. Japanese: Gaijin = literally an outer person, foreigner - Portugese were for a long time the only 'outsiders' allowed in Japan, again mainly Priests who spoke latin in churches to their converts.

Loaner Words get around a lot it seems. getting local vowel drift, and mis-speilingks as it wends it's way thru it's travels.

:cool:

[Victrix]

Jim,


It is hard to say if the Italians had a big export of sword blades, but I am sure they did export these blades to India.
When the Europeans copied each others stamps, and the Indians copied the different european stamps, so it can be very haard to say. However, we do see hints of Indian blades with European stamps, so these must have been copies of European blades.

The link mentions Polish sources suggesting Russian exports of captured Polish swords produced in Italy and Styria to the Caucasus and Central Asia. Possibly another source of these Firengi (i.e. European) blades?

http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antiques/Antique-Arms-and-Armor/Antique-SOLD-Antique-17th-Century-Polish-Sword-Blade-with-Indo-Persian-Talwar-Hilt

[fernando]

Portuguese served as the lingua franca in 15th and 16th century Africa and Asia. When the Portuguese began exploring the seas of Africa, the Americas, Asia and Oceania, they tried to communicate with the natives by mixing a version of the lingua franca (influenced by Portuguese) with the local languages. When English and French ships arrived to compete with the Portuguese, the crews sought to learn this truncated Portuguese. Through successive changes over time, the lingua franca, along with the Portuguese vocabulary, has been replaced by the language of the peoples concerned.

.

[fernando]

Have i just seen the famous mark in a sturdy XVIII century Spanish plug bayonet ?
Were the Spaniards also fond of replicating the 'ferri di molino' brand ... or has this blade made its way from Veneto to Spain; unlikely, i guess.

(Toledo Army Museum)


.

[Jim McDougall]

Points noted Jim,
So, between the two 'unlikely' probabilities, the Italian blade mounted in a Spanish plug (hunting) bayonet would be the more likely one.
No such mention in he caption, though :shrug:


.

[Reventlov]

Here is an interesting example of the single millrind mark - on the same blade appears the "Passau wolf". The sword is suggested to be Italian, being exceptionally similar to one in a well known painting... So should we suppose this is an example of a contemporary faked Passau mark? Or perhaps the millrind is indeed not a personal maker's mark, as I think was suggested above...

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27458?&searchField=All&sortBy=Relevance&where=Europe&what=Swords&ao=on&ft=*&offset=0&rpp=80&pos=41

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent example Reventlov! and the sword illustrated is of course compellingly similar to that in the painting.
I do not believe the 'mill rind' stamp is confined to any single maker, or it would appear just as with other marks (as the 'Passau wolf' noted) that it was to a particular center in any of the countries well known for blade and arms making.

I have often wondered if Italy ever used the Passau wolf, and in my perception it seems doubtful, however the use of the mill rind of course did occur in German context. It seems feasible that a German blade could have ended up in Italy as blades were typically sent to hilting locations there, and a blade from Passau may have easily been used just as the blades from Italian makers.

From reading some time ago (I believe in Wagner) it was said that Solingen often produced blades for Passau makers, and applied the wolf in accord with those 'contracts' (?). Such are the conundrums of specific classifications in these clearly diversified circumstances.

[AndreaFeraro89]

Great thread! As far as I’m aware the Venice arsenal marks would be either a C.X. for Consiglio dei Dieci or the Lion of St. Mark. So it seems to me that the twig mark must be an identifier of origin for the purchaser and seller alike. It might also have been something of a quality standard mark that it had passed tests by a guild. Marca a Mosca is probably a descriptive term (like “twig” mark). I think Fernando is onto something when pointing to Boccia & Coelho mentioning the mark as ferri di mulino (iron mill) marks. On German swords carrying the twig marks you might consider the possibility that these were North Italian blades with fake Solingen marks, rather than the other way around.

I wish I could find more to read on this in the English language (like Gotti’s Caino book!). You may find this of interest: https://www.hema-minsk2019.org/base_blog/2019/5/8/focus-on-the-objects-of-the-exhibition-part-3. It mentions a Beluni knot.

Hi All,
my name is Giovanni Sartori, I live in Northern Italy and my main interest is to recover and to share knowledge about italian arms and armour makers.

I am the author of the article about storta for the exhibition in Minsk and I am the maker of the copy of the Caino storta shown in the article (and the video documentary, sadly avaiable only with catalogue of the exhibition).

By the way, I am here to tell you some things about marks, Andrea Feraro, Belluno and other towns related to swordmaking in Republic of Venice.

There is a lot to tell, I will start with marks but spending some words about the production area.

The "Belluno Flyes" or "Belluno Knots" (I use second term) are marks mainly used in the area that I call swordmakers "triangle".

This area develops around 3 main towns: Belluno, Feltre and Vittorio Veneto (before IWW his divided is Serravalle and Ceneda 2 little villages along the turrent Meschio).
The reasons of such a great development of swordmaking art here are mainly 3:
-the nearness with mines of Fursil and Colle Santa Lucia that provides, since roman times, a superio quality of ore. Manganese rich siderite is a ore relatively poor of iron content (around 40%) but fre from phosphor and sulphur that are the worst elements to have in the steel. On other hand manganese is an element that gives great mechanical propreties to the steel made (we can discuss later about this point)
-the nearness with 2 big rivers (Brenta and Piave), that are crucial to transport goods from production centers to Venice lagoon, where is the bigger market of renaissance Europe. Do you know Stradivari Violins? very good... same rivers where used to bring wood to make that violins from Val di Fiemme forests.
-the presence of the main "driving force" before invention of steam engine: the hydraulic power. This area is full of water and we are in the very first part of dolomitic area (alps) so become easier to use the force of the falling water.

In this area many swordmaking masters has lived and worked. In Belluno for example Andrea Feraro and his brother Zandonà has started to work at the Fisterre workshop owned by Giovanni Barcelloni (do you remember the scorpion mark on hafted weapons? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=244426#). Andrea has countinued to live and work in Belluno until the end of his life (no... he has not moved to Scotland or Brescia or Milan). His brother Zandonà has bought his workshop in Serravalle (Vittorio Veneto) and his descendance has contiunued to produce swords until the end of XVII century.
Another great master is Pietro da Formicano (another story to tell)

To come back to the marks...
This marks seems to appear in the second half of XV century and being used during all XVI and very first part of XVII. The real meaning of them is still unclear, many legends but nothing certain. They are not related to the Venice arsenal because arsenal mark was used in Venice where they not produce, but only store weapons and armours. The classical arsenal mark is a circle with a St.Marc Lion inside (simbol of Venice Republic). Same thing for Doge armoury (CX armoury).

CIVIDAL DE BELUN is for cetainly a rare mark (Cividal is the roman name of city, sometimes used alone to indicate Belluno). And proves in my opionion the production of big stocks of blades made by many swordmakers together.

To conclude, I have studied many years the belunese swordmakers and now I am part of a big project called KLANG.

The aim of this project is to study this lost history of our countries and to promote it. We are planning conferences, exhibitions, new studies and pubblications.

Feel free to ask me everithing you want about the argoument, I will do my best to give you an exhaustive reply

All the best
Giovanni Sartori

[fernando]

Benvenuto nel forum, Giovanni :) .
Great info and revelations you have posted. I am sure the members will love to read all that ... and more to come, if you will :cool:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Giovanni, and welcome to the forum.
I dont collect European swords and daggers, but I do have a Firangi with a blade from Belluno.

[Victrix]

Hi Vittorio!

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for posting. Your article is excellent and really beautiful sword!

I would love to learn more about Italian swords and local manufacturing centres. It would be great if you could keep us posted on your work. It would also be very welcome if someone could translate some of the books from Italian. There should be a market for this.

Which are the best places in Italy to visit for arms and armour? Do the old manufacturing facilities still exist as museums? When I was in Milano I hoped to travel to Brescia to see the arms collection in the castle but unfortunately ran out of time. I hope to make another trip to see the Venice Arsenal and then take the train to Brescia. Is Brescia and Caino very different from the swordmakers ”triangle” which you mentioned?

All the best and mille grazie,

Victrix

[cornelistromp]

italian storta last quarter of of 16thc.

[fernando]

Outstanding example ... of both sword and marks !


-

[AndreaFeraro89]

Thank you to all for the warm welcome! @Fernando ;)

Ok a lot to discuss here ;)

@Jens Nordlunde for sure your is such a rare find!
CIVIDAL DE BELUN is a mark that proves the sword has been made in Belluno.
Maybe part of a big stock for foreign countries.
In my personal opinion this mark is indicating the collaboration of many swordmakers to supply to that big require.
We must not forget that Venice for centuries has been the great "Door" for Middle and Far East.
Every type of goods arrive and leave Venice. Included steel and weapons (arms and armour).
As explained before, water has been the key of everithing for centuries, from the rivers, to the lagoon, to the Mediterranean Sea.
The connection with middle east has been so strong for centuries, I have found some Andrea Feraro blades mounted in arab swords.
There is a funny thing to say, and I will explain better this point about Caino swordmakers later.
The Venice Steel, called by Venetians "iron for weapons" (ferro d'arme) was considered for centuries one of the best steel avaiable on the market for his charateristics, not only for the ore from what it has made, but also for the process to make it.
In the first of XVI century, the arab scientist and engineer Taqi al-Din ibn Ma’ruf (Damascus, 1526–Istanbul, 1585), wrote a book about clockmaking.
On this book, The Brightest Stars for the Construction of the Mechanical Clocks, he says that the only steel suitable for clock springs is the Venice one because is very resistant and does not break.
Venice laws about the commerce and production of this steel were very restrictive, it was a sort of government "industrial secret".

@Victrix
-Milan: Poldi Pezzoli Museum (important museum from private collection), Bagatti Valsecchi, Castello Sforzesco
-Turin: Armeria Reale in the Royal Palace of the Savoy family has astonishing pieces included the famous San Maurice sword: a XIII century sword in perfect condition (seems has been made yesterday)
-Brescia: Marzoli Collection (another important museum from a private collection), here is the famous "Brescia spadona" tha Albion take as a model for his copy.
-Venice: Palazzo Ducale Armory (Doge Palace), Correr Collection, Ca' Pesaro (one of the most important collection of Japanese Arms and Armour in Europe)
-Churburg: Castel Coira Armory, a noble family armoury that exhist since XIV century, if you like armours this is the sancta sanctorum.
-Florence: Stibbert Museum (tons of armours and weapons in a neogothic villa made by a English nobleman) for sure one of the most important private collection in the world (second bigger collection in the world of japanese arms and armour), Bargello Museum (a lot of very very interesting pieces, many of them ver rare), Museo Della Caccia Cerreto Guidi (same as Bargello)
-Mantua: Museo Diocesano Francesco Gonzaga, the biggest collection of XV century italian armours in the world.
-Rome: Castel Sant'Angelo Armory (Pope armory), Collezione Odescalchi (there is some interesting swords here, included a Pietro da Formicano spadone)
-Naples: Museo Capo di Monte (original battle of Pavia tapestry, Farnese and Borbonic armory)

And About Caino
Caino is a little village in the Garza Valley, on the Alps section closer to Brescia, this little valley is closer to the bigger Val Trompia valley famous for firearms makers (Beretta the most famous).
From the XV century Brescia has been part of the Venice Republic and with his valleys (Val Camonica and Val Trompia) ha become the bigger siderurgic compartment of Italy.
So the two big centers of steel production in Venice Republic have been two: -Brescia Valleys with theyr big manganese rich siderite mines (same quality as near Belluno)
-Mines of Colle Santa Lucia and Fursil near Belluno, blast furnaces were in Zoldo, where a big community of furnace masters from Brescia has been established to run furnaces and fineries in the "brescian way".
The only difference has been the quantity of ore extracted between the two areas and so the quantity of steel produced. Mines in Brescian area are much more rich and bigger than the Belluno mines.

In the XIII century, in that valleys has been developed a new smelting process, called the "brescian method" that is a way to convert cast iron from blast furnaces to steel or iron with a finery (this is called indirect process).
Probably the earliest blast furnaces has been built here, making possible the production of enormous quantities of iron and steel.
The development of the "indirect process" of steel making has been an enormous technological revolution, to see another siderurgical revolution like this we will must wait for the industrial revolution in XVIII century.
Compared to the "old" technology of bloomery furnace (direct method) the brescian process has imporved not only quantity but also quality of steel produced.
Making possible that great development of arms and armour production in northern Italy from XIV century.

Caino has the great advantage to be into that area, where was possible to find great quantity of hight quality steel to make blades.
The problem is that before XVI century there was no swordsmithing tradition here like in Belluno area, so the owners of the workshops (keep in mind that in medieval time owner of the workshop rarely match with master that work in it) decide to convert theyr production (mainly agricultural tools, and papermaking mills) into swordmaking.
To do this they ask to some Belluno area masters to come in Caino and to start to run activity making swords in theyr workshops.
So Caino, has become a swordmakin center in XVI for the fact that some masters moved there from Feltre, Belluno, Vittorio Veneto and other places closer to the triangle.

@cornelistromp beautiful example of storta! There is a very similar blade in Poldi Pezzoli collection in Milan. I will post the photo later.

Cheers
Giovanni

[AndreaFeraro89]

Some Belluno area marks!

Cheers
Giovanni

[fernando]

Most interesting info... and useful, Giovani.
Post copied to the EARLY " MAKERS TRADE MARKS" page, situated in the "Classic Threads" front page sticky.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Giovani, this is most interesting. I too have a firangi blade with some of these stamps. The problem is, that the Indian smiths were very good at copying both blades and stamps.
Is there any indication of, how far down the blades there stamps would be - was there a standard measure from the hilt?
This could, maybe, help us to point out the copied blades/stamps.

[AndreaFeraro89]

Sorry to all for my boring talk about swordsmiths!
I want to share my knowledge and I think only knowing the story of a piece we can understand his real value.
Yes, marks are my passion too but it is important too to know who are the artisans that have put their marks on the blade.

Just my tought.

;)

[fernando]

Your talk is not boring ... at all, Giovani; on the contrary. Just keep on sharing your knowledge, which we will deeply appreciate :cool: .
By the way, marks are also a passion of many of our members ... myself included ;) .

[Jens Nordlunde]

One problem could be, that when the stamp got worn, the image on the blade would change. Maybe the Indian smiths did not take so much notice as they would in Italy?!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

From the superb additions and at #70 on Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf by Andrea Ferraro89


see Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf on the web... :shrug:

Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf

Taqi al-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf ash-Shami al-Asadi was an Ottoman polymath active in Cairo and Istanbul. He was the author of more than ninety books on a wide variety of subjects, including astronomy, clocks, engineering, mathematics, mechanics, optics and natural philosophy. In 1574 the Ottoman Sultan Murad III invited Taqī ad-Dīn to build the Constantinople observatory. Using his exceptional knowledge in the mechanical arts, Taqī ad-Dīn constructed instruments like huge armillary and mechanical clocks that he used in his observations of the Great Comet of 1577. He also used European celestial and terrestrial globes that were delivered to Istanbul in gift-exchange. The major work that resulted from his work in the observatory is titled "The tree of ultimate knowledge in the Kingdom of the Revolving Spheres: The astronomical tables of the King of Kings". The work was prepared according to the results of the observations carried out in Egypt and Istanbul in order to correct and complete Ulugh Beg’s Zij as-Sultani. The first 40 pages of the work deal with calculations, followed by discussions of astronomical clocks, heavenly circles, and information about three eclipses which he observed at Cairo and Istanbul. For corroborating data of other observations of eclipses in other locales like Daud ar-Riyyadi, David Ben-Shushan of Salonika.

[Jim McDougall]

Giovanni, please never presume that the kind of detail and material you have so generously placed here is 'boring' or any such nonsense!

While there is certainly a spectrum of readers here whose scope in their degree of interest varies, there are many of us who look to the historical and investigative aspects, and very much appreciate your work.

Others are interested mostly in the collecting aspects of weapons, and look for typology and classification primarily as they assemble their groupings in chosen fields.

Often the study of weapons leads into unexpected related areas, such as the control of steel in the Italian regions you are describing, and surprisingly, and seemingly 'foreign' awareness of it by the Ottoman's as detailed by Ibrahiim.


This reminds us that true investigative study is not confined to the topic at hand rigidly, and often key clues are found in remarkably different contexts. One good analogy toward this is finding hints in analyzing cyphers and marks or inscriptions on blades from period coins of considered regions.

As one here who, as Fernando notes, has been very keen on markings for more years than I can say, this profound attention to the ANDREA FERARA and Belluno conundrums is great!

What Jens notes on the deterioration of marking stamps is very pertinent, and we have seen for example, in Sudan, the twin moon mark on the kaskara and takouba swords in many cases took very different character over years. This was from degeneration, and remade stamps not having the same nuances.

While makers probably faced these dilemmas with stamps, they also fashioned variations as their families entered the craft or other workers joined. To compound this, as always, were the spurious uses of marks.

[Evgeny_K]

Dear colleagues,
Looking for your help with this mark on the schiavona's blade which looks similar, but not the same.

[Evgeny_K]

It looks like this one:

[fernando]

... And why not ? :cool: .

[Evgeny_K]

... And why not ? :cool: .


:)

[AndreaFeraro89]

@Evgeny_K In my modest opinion seems to be from Belluno area like many others.
I agree with you about this one is particular because presents more edges than classical ones.
The big big problem about Venetian Republic swordsmiths has been that for many century they have been forgotten so you will find many old (and new) books that says Andrea Ferara was German, Scottish, Spanish... and many marks attributed to Solingen production or Toledo.
For example about baskethilts swords, many blades bears the name Andrea Ferara, many of them with incorrect spelling because they are imitating the original blades that comes in Scottish market in XVI century that are genuine Andrea Ferara blades.
So in Scotland they are still persuaded that this blade are made in germany, and they do not know nothing about the real story of the name.
So, about marks, it would be better to take carefully indication about provenance of some blades...

To finish, in my opinion is a Belunese blade (could we take a look to the rest of the sword?) :cool:

@Ibrahiim al Balooshi Thanks for details about his life, he has been a great scientist and engineer for sure!

@Jens Nordlunde. I have a restorer formation before than a blacksmith and I can adfirm that I find pretty hard that the indian smith were able to make an exact copy of a mark. Not only indian but every smith I know armound the world. Take a look to the fake Andrea Ferara blades for Scottish market ;)

Cheers
Giovanni

[Evgeny_K]

...
To finish, in my opinion is a Belunese blade (could we take a look to the rest of the sword?) :cool:
...


Giovanni, thank you for your opinion!
Here is a photo of the whole item. I am not sure whether the blade was replaced or not, because there are signs of disassembling of the sword. It is also likely the blade slightly shortened.

BR,
Evgeny

[AndreaFeraro89]

Oh Mamma Mia! (sorry but others Italian sentences I have in my mind are not as kind as this).
I have made a goo choice to ask you photos!

This is an ancestral schiavona type, the blade is still large and the basket is not fully developed, is much more uncommon than later examples.

In my opinion we are around 1570-80 about datation and I am 99% sure is a Belunese model, not for sure German.
The blade belongs with hilt and pommel and the handle seems orginal too.
Beautiful piece, a joy for my soul.
Thank you for sharing

Giovanni

:cool:

[CSinTX]

Here is a photo of the whole item.

She's a simple beauty! Looks like the hilt is engraved? Maybe start a thread on it with more detailed pictures?

[Evgeny_K]

Thank you, gents!
I've just started a new thread with some pics of this sword:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25607

[stephen wood]

I found this old post about Fly Markings. I showed the sword to Tony North at an Arms and Armour Society meeting and he said..."Venice".

The proto Kaskara remains an enigma.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11920