Frontier Arithmetic: The Afghan Jezail

[Jim McDougall]

"....a scrimmage in a border station, a canter down some dark defile;
two thousand pounds of education, drops to a ten rupee jezail".
"Arithmetic on the Frontier"
Rudyard Kipling, 1886

I somehow came across this jezail, in Albuquerque of all places, and have always wanted one after all the years of reading about them here, so I got it.
While it clearly is in the 'tourist' category, and most probably came from the Kuch-e-Morgha (Chicken Street) in Kabul, I would like to think that perhaps it came there from the Khyber regions, and was genuinely fashioned for a Pathan tribesman some time ago.

After reviewing as many images as possible of EIC gun locks, I feel that this is quite possibly a genuine lock from probably a Windus pattern Brown Bess that was acquired in the First Anglo-Afghan war in 1839.
The use of the rampant lion on the lock seems to have begun around 1808, with the date on the tail of the lock.
Both these and the quartered heart with initials of EIC seem to have abound in these Afghan regions ever since, and while they were widely copied, this seems close enough to be authentic.

The gun itself highly embellished in style that was used often authentically by tribesmen, was also of course widely produced as souvenirs, often using authentic locks as refurbished from worn old guns.

The pics are of the one I acquired, said to be .58 cal. smoothbore.

The red backed lock image is of an known authentic example as comparison.

[TVV]

Jim, the barrel on your new acquisition looks promising and could well be dating back to the 19th century. We will wait for you to receive the gun and take better pictures. I cannot comment on the rest.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Teodor, I have the gun, I found it in a shop here in Albuquerque. Here is another pic of the barrel. I never realized how long and heavy these things are.

[Jim McDougall]

I have always had a deep interest in history, and much of it certainly prompted by literature and movies (as a youngster one was not especially aware of 'accuracy'). One movie which deeply intrigued me was "King of the Khyber Rifles" (1953) with Tyrone Power.
In later years, and more aware of accuracy and inspirations, I learned that the movie was inspired by a 1916 book by Talbot Mundy with the same title.

Further, I found that Mundy was inspired by a true story and actual unit in an autobiography of Sir Robert Warburton titled "Eighteen Years in the Khyber" (1900) and about his experiences there 1879-1898.

I learned later after much research and letters to many sources that the Khyber Rifles were a paramilitary unit begun in the 1880s as the "Khyber Jezalichis" with Afridi tribesmen. They were attached to British regiments in campaigns and soon went from their jezails to Snider Enfield, then Martini-Henry rifles.

These were my first exposures to these fascinating jezail rifles, and I find the history of them, from the notable tribal use described by Kipling; the accounts by Warburton; the book by Mundy and even the movie, colorful and exciting.

I know we have discussed these many times over the years, but I would really like to discuss them further here, and to see more of the examples you guys have out there.

One thing that I find very intriguing is the constant use and reuse of the British locks of the EIC. I think it would be interesting to put together an overview of these locks and the examples they appear in, with details on the probable time lines; for example, those with the quartered heart, the lion, and those with names and dates.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu

[Richard G]

Jim,
Whether or not your lock is original EIC is difficult to say from the photo's. The main components look as if they could be; but if so it has definitely suffered some local tinkering in that all the screws would appear to be replacements.
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,
These guns are so - too - many on the market and as you said most of them are decorative.
Then even in the original and functionnal ones, you have some of them made with good and old original pieces English and Persian, then the others locally made but functionnal.
I have some serious doubt about your lock... Of course Rick will tell you everything about your gun.
Thank you Kubur, Stu and Richard! I really appreciate this input as I know you guys are well seasoned in the collecting and study of these.

I have had doubts about the lock as well, but in comparing it to some of the examples known authentic it is remarkably well done if indeed a copy. As far as I have known the Afghan copies have never been that faithfully copied, only rendered interpretations. All of the screw positions etc. seem to line up, and the 'work' in adding this lock appears to use similar technique and even hardware to other Afghan components. While the profiled outlining on the perimeters of the lock seem slightly crude in joins, it seems most Afghan examples dont even bother with this detail.
These are just my estimations based on research to get up to speed as I cannot claim any great experience or knowledge on these.

Thank you for the historic and geographic insights as well Stu, and important to note how in flux these boundaries have been.

Stu,thank you for the great examples you posted! Those are beauties, and these guns are incredibly attractive. I take it the Sind examples have a long slender neck (or wrist?) on the stock.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Jim, Another great subject very nicely placed so people can add their take on the subject.. Looking purely at the weapons I made a few observations noting a number of different locks from far and wide. This gun seems to have a few different names including camel gun and the Jezail or Jezzail seems dominant ...although there also seem to be different types some with the very hooked butt and others more straight... I have a few pictures here ~

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Jim,
Hope you have somewhere suitable to mount your Jezail in the "Bookmobile"!. Nice example by the way.....
Yes as Kubur says, Rick will no doubt be able to comment on the genuineness of the lock but if you can post a pic of the inside of the lock it will give a clearer idea of origin. Also does the touch hole line up with the bottom of the pan?
I have a similar Jezail which, though probably functional in terms of shooting, appears as if it could be, though not definitely, made for tourists, as it is also (like yours), prolificly decorated with MOP.
Pics of a couple of my Jezails.
Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan. It must be remembered that when we today discuss Afghani guns, that the borders have been many times redrawn since colonial days, and what was once part of Afghanistan is now part of Pakistan.
A couple of pics of these guns attached also.
Stu


That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim I'm so glad you came in on this!! and great photo images, thank you.
As one of few people I know who have actually been in Kabul and seen 'Chicken Street', I value your insights here.

As you note, these jezails (et al) I have hoped to focus here with the diverse experience and knowledge over many years here, and put together as much comprehensive material as possible to better identify them.

I am trying to gather as much as I can on the locks, which seem to be one of the key components in these, and determine the variations of EIC markings and names etc. From these, it would be good to compare spuriously produced Afghan examples.

Thank you for the input!!!

[Kubur]

That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Warriors for sure

but
most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...

Is true or was it a British colonialist propaganda???

like the stories about the fuzzy fuzzy in Sudan or the Zulu in South Africa

more your ennemies look dangerous more your victories look greater...

:shrug:

Please see http://www.travelbooksonline.com/asia/0023asiapage1_1000.html

Well arguably... In a brilliant travelog I read he appears from about page 54 where he is described as Quote" His Highness Mir Khudadad, Khan of Kelat, is about sixty years old. He would be tall were it not for a decided stoop, which, together with a toothless lower jaw, gives him the appearance of being considerably more than his age. His complexion is very dark, even for a Baluch, and he wears a rusty black beard and moustaches, presumably dyed, from the streaks of red and white that run through them, and long, coarse pepper-and-salt locks streaming far below his shoulders. His personal appearance gave me anything but a favourable impression. The Khan has a scowling expression, keen, piercing black eyes, and a sharp hooked nose that reminded one forcibly of Cruikshank's picture of Fagin the Jew in "Oliver Twist." Unquote.

His story goes...ASLAMO ALAIKOOM. I'M MIR KHUDADAD KHAN. I'M THE KHAN OF KALAT. I WAS THE LAST KHAN TO HAVE ANY REAL AUTHORITY. I ASCENDED TO THE THRONE, IN 1857, WHEN I WAS A MERE BOY OF 10 ( CORRECTION: was 17). THOSE WERE TROUBLED TIMES, WITH MOST OF MY SARDARS OPENLY FLAUNTING MY AUTHORITY; AND THE BRITISH HOVERING IN AND AROUND MY LANDS. THEY WERE QUICK, TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SITUATION. ON ONE HAND WAS THE FULL MIGHT OF THE BRITISH ARMS AND ON THE OTHER, THE STRANGE INTRANSIGENCE OF MY OWN SARDARS. THERE WAS NO OTHER OPTION FOR ME, BUT TO AGREE TO A HUMILIATING AGREEMENT, WITH THE BRITISH, IN 1876. AN AGREEMENT I HATED, FROM THE CORE OF MY HEART. BY IT, THE BRITISH GAINED GREATER INFLUENCE IN LARGE PARTS OF MY KHANATE. I ONLY AGREED, BECAUSE NOT DOING SO MEANT THE END OF MY KHANATE, AS IT WAS. AND IT'S DISINTEGRATION INTO PETTY FIEFDOMS. I AGREED, SO THAT, WHEN SITUATION WAS MORE FAVORABLE , TO REVOKE IT. IN 1877, I EVEN ATTENDED THE "IMPERIAL ASSEMBLAGE" DARBAR AT DELHI, WERE QUEEN VICTORIA, WAS PROCLAIMED THE EMPRESS OF INDIA. I HATED THE INCREASING INFLUENCE OF THE BRITISH IN MY LANDS. THEY HATED MY INDEPENDENT NATURE. A TIME CAME IN 1893, WHEN, ON ALLEGATIONS OF KILLING MY OWN PRIME MINISTER AND OF WANTON CRUELTY, I WAS DEPOSED AND IN MY PLACE, MY YOUNGER BROTHER MIR MAHMOOD KHAN, WAS MADE THE NEW KHAN. I REIGNED FOR ABOUT 36 YEARS. I WAS CONFINED AT PISHIN TILL MY DEATH 21st May 1907. There are a couple of slide shows on Utube from which I took the passage above ...Indicating the somewhat lack of trust he reflected arguably indicating the general view that he could be a bit violent …

Returning to the weapons situation please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23258&highlight=Baluch where guns and swords are displayed variously.

[kronckew]

The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Jezail.


To fully return to the weapon Please See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-aEWZrTibE

An excellent couple of points are brought out on calibres of these weapons and wear proving the age of originals opposed to newly made examples often seen in souks in Afghanistan today.

[David R]

The Sudanese Hadendoa were referred to in racist insults as 'Fuzzy-Wuzzys'.

Not so much an insult, more a semi- affectionate description. If you want to see insults, look up what 19th C squaddies called their officers.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has.

With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that.

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

[Kubur]

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?

Of course, first i think your lock is an Afghan copy decorative or not i don't know.
Second i think Elgood mentionned somewhere that British had a factory in Persia and then many locks are English made in Iran...
It would explain the quantities found in Afganistan.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Kubur! and I am inclined to agree, my example does appear to be an Afghan copy, it is not nearly as well executed as the example in the photo (with red background) which is deemed an authentic British lock.
I very much appreciate you sharing this page from Elgood, which I do not have with me presently.
Interesting that the British had manufacturing involvement in Iran, just as they did in Afghanistan with the Machin Khana in Kabul. At the Kabul factory though they did not produce spuriously marked locks etc and the factory had their own use of the Afghan royal stamp.

The spuriously marked locks seem to have come from the independent tribal artisans in Khyber locations such as Darra Khel and others.

[Victrix]

Interesting rifle Jim! These Jezails are quite exotic and were produced all over I think. And many parts were likely replaced during their lifetime.

I found this article useful when researching my jezail: http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm

[kahnjar1]

That picture of the tribals with guns has at its centre Khuda Dad Khan of Kalat arguably the most murderous butcher that ever stalked the earth...
The caption to that pic describes the tribesmen as Balochs and dated as 1879.
Another print/woodcut herewith, presumably earlier as the guns appear to be matchlocks.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Of course, first i think your lock is an Afghan copy decorative or not i don't know.
Second i think Elgood mentionned somewhere that British had a factory in Persia and then many locks are English made in Iran...
It would explain the quantities found in Afganistan.
Here is the full section relating to EIC guns made in Tabriz.(From Firearms of the Islamic World in the Tareq Museum Kuwait by Elgood).
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Tabriz was not the only place in Persia where these guns were made, but can not remember where I read it.
Also an Afghan pistol which is locally made. I do not wish to detract or confuse the current theme of this thread, so it is only posted for interest only and not for comment.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Interesting notes on some of the figures in these regions in Afghanistan of the period, and it is understandable that emotions and perspectives run deep, especially as warfare and combative situations leave deep scars. I have not been nor served in Afghanistan, but I have a son in law; son and grandson who have, and I know Ibrahiim has.

With that I was even a bit apprehensive in sharing the gun I acquired with them, but keeping objective and toward the unique nature and character of the weapon itself has been the primary outcome, so hoping to maintain that.

Can anyone share more on the locks on these with closeups and insights on them so as to put together a bit of identification compendium?
Hi Jim,
Here are pics of the lock of the second jezail shown in my pics. This gun has no trigger guard (as made) and the lock bears the heart shaped bale mark of the EIC, but not the rampant lion. I would class this lock as "genuine" as the lock parts are fixed with screws rather than peened. When I get a moment I will post pics of the other locks.
Stu

[Kubur]

Not to digress from the Jezail, there is another gun of similar shape which is also attributed to Afghanistan, though it's origins are more Sindhi/Baluchistan.
Stu

I think you did, it's what i call a digression...
:) BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting rifle Jim! These Jezails are quite exotic and were produced all over I think. And many parts were likely replaced during their lifetime.

I found this article useful when researching my jezail: http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm


Thank you so much for the kind note !!! :)
These truly are exotic and attractive, and it does seem they were often reworked and had very long working lives. I honestly wish I could display it, but the bookmobile has little space for such mounting.

The link you have added is an absolutely fascinating and wonderful article which goes exactly in the direction I have hoped to lead this thread.....perfect addition :)
I have made many notes over the years on East India Co. gunlocks, mostly from research on the bale marks of the Company, and had some interesting communication with David Harding back when he was completing his volumes "Small Arms of the East India Company 1600-1856" (1999).
I sure wish I would have gotten a copy then (three volumes at first, another later).

It seems there have been other articles which show how to recognize Afghan copies from originals, but still searching.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim,
Here are pics of the lock of the second jezail shown in my pics. This gun has no trigger guard (as made) and the lock bears the heart shaped bale mark of the EIC, but not the rampant lion.
When I get a moment I will post pics of the other locks.
Stu


Excellent Stu!!! That is exactly what I am trying to gather here, close ups and detail on these locks.
It seems the rampant lion came in around 1808 with the EIC but as always exact dates are unclear.

The EIC heart seen in your example here has rather than the quartered heart, what is known as the 'flaunched' heart, which has curved lines rather than quarters.
I had always thought that the VEIC stood for Venerable East India Co.
but I learned from David Harding that it was actually United East India Company (or to that effect as the 'U' was seen as a 'V' in those days).

It is amazing to me, and pretty exciting, that the Afghans so thoroughly copied these British markings from the many Brown Bess they obtained during the long years of campaigns in these rugged and vast regions.

Thanks very much for the great examples you are adding here.
Also again for the notes on the Sindhi (Baluch) versions of these guns.

It is my impression that it is hard to accurately define these as from Sind or Baluchistan as not only are these areas unclearly defined geographically, but the tribal diffusions are complicated. Simply more that makes the study of the arms of these regions so fascinating.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Just to add to the map equation where Baluchistan is shown as one entity which would be somewhat dissolved in the aftermath of the forming of Pakistan and where the western border of Baluchistan then straddled the Persian border so now it is quarter in Persia and three quarters in Pakistan.. Politics to one side; here is the map.

Note.Baluchi tribesman shown (although pictured out of area by the artist simply using a bit of blank map to illustrate them) doing what all tribals in the region did with their Jezails using high positions for defence and plunging fire at long range..

[kahnjar1]

I think you did, it's what i call a digression...
:) BTW amazing collection!

The so-called sindhi muskets are in fact Balutchi
I would like to see a sindhi with a sindhi gun...

To come back to Jim's musket
They are Pashtun, from the North Khyber pass...
Hi Kubur,
As stated in my earlier post to Jim's thread, the boundries have been much redrawn in later times. If you refer to the old map kindly posted by Ibrahiim, you will see that Baluchistan covered a significant area of what is now southern and eastern Afghanistan, and modern day Pakistan.....so,.... the so called Sindhi gun, whether Baloch or Sindi, can be legitimately included as an Afghan weapon. The tribal link (Pashtun) which you allude to is just that....tribal, which according to the more modern map which you have posted, covers many regions of Afghanistan and not just the Khyber Pass region.
Stu

[Victrix]

Thank you so much for the kind note !!! :)
These truly are exotic and attractive, and it does seem they were often reworked and had very long working lives. I honestly wish I could display it, but the bookmobile has little space for such mounting.

The link you have added is an absolutely fascinating and wonderful article which goes exactly in the direction I have hoped to lead this thread.....perfect addition :)
I have made many notes over the years on East India Co. gunlocks, mostly from research on the bale marks of the Company, and had some interesting communication with David Harding back when he was completing his volumes "Small Arms of the East India Company 1600-1856" (1999).
I sure wish I would have gotten a copy then (three volumes at first, another later).

It seems there have been other articles which show how to recognize Afghan copies from originals, but still searching.

Glad you liked the article Jim. The last rifle I thought looked rather similar to yours. The EIC flintlocks have a charm of their own I must admit.

Here is another photo of some Afghan tribesmen.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There are contradictory reports on the supposed advantages and disadvantages of the afghan jezail compared to the brown bess.

It may be remembered that the Jezail was a copy and largely of the brown bess and by almost accident it turned into something of a home made snipers rifle.

There are several reasons why, including the Jezails elongated barrel and its rifled twist as well as its deployment in groups of two and three shooters in the high mountain passes using plunging fire carefully aimed at massed targets struggling to pass below and where counter attack, easy on flatter ground, was impossible among vertical cliffs etc.

Here is another reason for their better marksmanship below... the bipod.

[rickystl]

Hi Jim.

Congratulations. It looks like a nice - and genuine Jazail from the photos. My thoughts:
STOCK: The intricate brass piercing decoration along with the pearl is in a manner much better than a tourist example in my opinion.
BARREL: The long, damascus barrel with traces of gold inlay, heavy breech area, and rear sight arrangement are all typical of the genuine working guns. Even the design of the brass barrel bands are of a style commonly seen on these guns.
LOCK: From the one photo the lock appears to be a genuine EIC lock with the hammer and frizzen screws replaced with pins sometime during it's working life. (This would not be unusual as the Afghan locals seemed to avoid making threaded screws whenever possible. Probably due to a lack of hand dies to make threads. I've seen lock plate screw threads that looked more like early 17th Century versus early 19th Century. While others utilized the lock plate screws directly from the British EIC muskets.)
Close up photos of both the outside and inside of the lock would confirm a genuine EIC lock or a locally made copy. But at the moment, from the somewhat distant photo, it appears to be genuine.

The locally made copies of the EIC locks I've examined vary greatly in quality. Occasionally you will find a copy that functions almost as well as the British original. While others are made so crudely that the locks would likely require constant maintenance/repair. The spurious marks (prancing lion, heart, and date) on the locally made locks run the range of very close to very crude. These spurious marks were probably added by the gunsmith to give a perspective buyer an imaginary added value thinking the lock was of British origin. Likely the local tribesmen could not read/write their own language much less a foreign one. As mentioned, many of the locks were re-used from captured British muskets. But many of the genuine EIC locks were sold/traded to the locals either legitimately or not.
The barrels were made in both rifled and smoothbore variations. While the smoothbores would shoot as far and equal range as the rifled barrels, the ball would start to vere side to side after about 75 yards. So the rifled barrels would be much more accurate, especially at longer ranges. But the smoothbores would be faster to reload and easier to clean. So those were the trade offs. The barrels are typically long and front heavy. The likely anticipation of shooting the gun while resting on the rock cliffs or other type of rest. Some of these guns were even made with adjustable stands built into the forearm of the stock.

I'll post some photos of some of the Jazails and locks I have in my collection.
These Jazails certainly have a colorful history. Harding's books are likely the best reference source for EIC lock markings. But I've never exhibited the courage to cough up the astronomical price for a set - when available. LOL

Rick

[kronckew]

If you get a chance, watch the movie "Kesari", about the last stand of 21 Sikh warriors against the Pathans. There is a sniper that plagues them with a jezail, and ultimately gets his comeuppance from a brit .Martini-henry. (It's available on Amazon Prime, with english subtitles, included free for prime members) includes 12,000 heavily armed pathans, and lots of musketry. Mostly getting slaughtered. Score: pathans 21, Sikhs around 2-3,000.

[kahnjar1]

Glad you liked the article Jim. The last rifle I thought looked rather similar to yours. The EIC flintlocks have a charm of their own I must admit.

Here is another photo of some Afghan tribesmen.
Interesting pic of the time, though obviously posed. The shooters gun is not cocked and the guy below with the matchlock version does not seem too concerned with what is happening around him. A great pic though, and thanks for posting.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Ricky, I cannot possibly thank you enough for the wonderfully positive and detailed assessment of my jezail. As I have noted, this was purely serendipity, and actually I was visiting a very prominent and well known gun dealer in Albuquerque. While I ceased collecting years ago, I have always had a little bucket list, and I was looking for an authentic well used Winchester saddle ring carbine.
He had so many guns it was hard to describe, many had come in from estates and collection purchases, and there were countless items not yet cataloged or listed. He was tight on the price for the carbine I chose, and I saw this jezail among a literal pile of them brought back from Afghanistan. For some reason I liked this one and negotiated a package deal.......somehow not only did I get my saddle ring....but this jezail, which I have wanted since the wistful readings I described of some 50 years ago!

I would not dare disassemble it, but have optimistically held the same views you have, that it is likely far to elaborate for a tourist item. Still, that even the guns of tribesmen authentically used end up in the bazarres in Kabul, so this may be one. The touch hole, and other necessary features seem notably functional, and it is indeed smooth bore, .58 cal. according to the dealer.

It is pretty exciting to have luckily found a good example, never really expecting I would ever get one, and the great responses here from you and the guys as I try to learn more about these is great.
Thank you so much again.....and REALLY looking forward to your pics :)

[kahnjar1]

As promised the lock detail not yet posted of the two other jezails.
The one with MOP decoration similar to yours does not have the RAMPANT lion but has a lion standing on all four feet. The date, if in fact it is one, is in Hindi I think. No doubt someone here will be able to confirm or deny that.
The other (percussion) jezail has no EIC or any other marks, but a string of I.I.I.I.etc. Not sure what that signifies, or maybe it is just part of the decoration. The lock itself looks to me to be a civilian type rather than military.
Stu

[Kubur]

The one with MOP decoration similar to yours does not have the RAMPANT lion but has a lion standing on all four feet. The date, if in fact it is one, is in Hindi I think.
Hi Stu
I can see 1272, 1856 and a Persian lion or a copy i don't know...

[kahnjar1]

Hi Stu
I can see 1272, 1856 and a Persian lion or a copy i don't know...
Thanks Kubur.
Are the numerals Hindi? The particular lion is familiar to me but I could not place it. Certainly not EIC though.
Stu

[Kubur]

Thanks Kubur.
Are the numerals Hindi? The particular lion is familiar to me but I could not place it. Certainly not EIC though.
Stu

It's Farsi, Persian numbers (in fact Arabic), the persian calendar is a bit different
so +/-10 years...

[Jim McDougall]

Stu, thank you!!! These are excellent images, and I think what I like most about these guns is their inherently rugged charm, so appropriate for the tribal warriors of the Khyber and its environs.

The 'standing' lion is of course Persian, and while officially the Lion and Sun of the Pahlavi dynasty of late in Iran, it was of course prevalent in the Qajar dynasty preceding. In Afghanistan, as has been noted, the influences of Persia are profoundly present much as throughout India with the Mughals.
This is an amazing lock, and honestly the first I have seen with the Persian lion. With the previously noted presence of England in Persia and the use of the EIC markings on locks produced there, this is fascinating.

The 'date' on this is in characters I do not recognize, but clearly in imitation of EIC configuration, and it is tempting to consider the Persian Lion and Sun were deliberately placed in lieu of the EIC rampant lion as well.

The percussion lock example is also fascinating and unusual. It will be interesting to find what these 'I' characters added in such a grouping with periods mean. From the obsessive research I have been involved in the past weeks, it seems the percussion locks (of c. 1830s+) were not particularly favored by the tribesmen as obviously, the caps were hard to come by while flints and powder were not.

[Jim McDougall]

In continuing the research on the lock on my jezail of the OP, I wanted to find more on the EIC rampant lion and date on the lock. I was greatly encouraged by Ricky's supportive observations on it likely being authentically original EIC.

While it has certain minor flaws, it does seem more consistent with such which might occur in work of the numerous contractors supplying materials to the EIC rather than the more crude and often misaligned elements of native Afghan examples.

Clearly it has been reworked, probably numerous times in its very long working life, as is common with these long circulating gun locks in these regions.
As has been noted, the use of pins instead or screws, and the working seems to have defaced the head of the lion as well as the position where the company inspection stamp was. The date 1811 seems one of notable production as I have found numerous notations noting it.

One thing I noticed is the hammer on my example, which seems consistent with the earlier Windus examples, while about 1813, the ring in the hammer appeared.
As the rampant lion superceded the familiar quartered heart mark in about 1808 (used until 1830s) it may presume the lock itself could be in accord with the 1811 date.

Photos:
1) an original EIC lock with rampant lion and date 1811
2) Another with rampant lion but date is not visible
3) One of the earlier EIC locks with quartered heart EIC initials/date
4) An EIC heart with curious 'flaunched' separation with initials
According to R.E. Brooker in "British Military Pistols" (1978) this design
was a 'storekeepers mark', however it seems unusual that it would be
seen on a gun lock. This design seems to have been more prevalent in
Bengal regions and on some coins, but I have yet to find notes on that
from research some years ago.

Most of this study was from in the mid 1990s when I was trying to discover if EIC markings such as on gun locks were ever placed on sword blades. According to communications with David Harding who was then compiling his master work, "Small Arms of the East India Company" (4 vol. 1997) they were not. However I do have a bayonet with EIC heart, so that was the exception.

The next photo is the lock on my jezail from OP for comparison,

[kahnjar1]

It's Farsi, Persian numbers (in fact Arabic), the persian calendar is a bit different
so +/-10 years...
Thanks very much.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Stu, thank you!!! These are excellent images, and I think what I like most about these guns is their inherently rugged charm, so appropriate for the tribal warriors of the Khyber and its environs.

The 'standing' lion is of course Persian, and while officially the Lion and Sun of the Pahlavi dynasty of late in Iran, it was of course prevalent in the Qajar dynasty preceding. In Afghanistan, as has been noted, the influences of Persia are profoundly present much as throughout India with the Mughals.
This is an amazing lock, and honestly the first I have seen with the Persian lion. With the previously noted presence of England in Persia and the use of the EIC markings on locks produced there, this is fascinating.

The 'date' on this is in characters I do not recognize, but clearly in imitation of EIC configuration, and it is tempting to consider the Persian Lion and Sun were deliberately placed in lieu of the EIC rampant lion as well.

The percussion lock example is also fascinating and unusual. It will be interesting to find what these 'I' characters added in such a grouping with periods mean. From the obsessive research I have been involved in the past weeks, it seems the percussion locks (of c. 1830s+) were not particularly favored by the tribesmen as obviously, the caps were hard to come by while flints and powder were not.
Hi Jim,
That's the one!! Thank you for posting . The sun??? behind the lion shows clearly on my lock, so at least we now know that it is a Persian lock, or at least a copy of one, and the date is shown in Farsi.
Quality of workmanship of the inside is poor IMHO so one assumes that this is a backyard made lock. I suppose it is possible that the lock plate itself could be original, with the working parts added in a backyard assembly. I guess we will never know for sure.......
Stu.

[Jim McDougall]

In researching EIC markings quite some time ago, I wondered why the '4' atop the quartered heart which seems to appeared on this bale mark sometime about 1770 according to some sources. The quartered heart with VEIC initials remained the company bale mark until 1808, when the rampant lion image replaced it.
Prior to the quartered heart, the mark used was a circle containing the initials G.C.E. (= Governor and Company of East India Merchants).

As noted earlier, the 'flaunched' heart with VEIC was presumed to be a storekeepers mark, and not used as widely as the other.

Returning to the '4', knowing that the EIC markings were intended as bale marks, thus marking company property and goods. One source suggested that such bale marks were also intended to protect property, and had certain amulet oriented imbuement. The '4' in astrological and magic/occult symbolism represented Jupiter , good fortune and protection.
I had noticed that the 4 appeared in numerous other merchants marks, as well as those used by printers and tailors etc.

To me this was far from the suggestions that the 4 was simply an altered cross and orb to avoid offending Muslim trade contacts. When I suggested the possible magical or protective properties as a possible explanation for the 4 atop the heart, it was not exactly well received, however seemed to me still an option.

I add this material here mostly to illustrate the variations of markings which might occur on jezail locks.

[rickystl]

Hello again. This Tread is producing some very interesting reading.

Here is my favorite Jazail from my collection. It is only moderately decorated. I had this one restored to firing condition, which I guess is why it is my favorite. LOL This one has a genuine EIC lock dated 1805 with the tail of the lockplate marked: BARNETT, who was a prolific English gun/lock maker during this period. Not only did he make locks/guns for the military, many of his locks were used on trade guns (less the EIC markings) exported to North America.
Notice the internal parts of the lock are up to European snuff. The lock operates strong and reliable.
The barrel was originally rifled, and now has a new rifled liner. But this is a good typical example of a Jazail with a lighter than normal barrel weight that is easy to shoulder. Usually the barrels are extra front-heavy as previously mentioned. Apparently, the original owner wanted something a bit more portable and easy to carry.

I'll post some others with different lock variations as discussed.

Rick

[kronckew]

Cool, a lot better to my western eyes w/o the garish decor.

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed this thread has brought in some fascinating reading, and again, Im learning a lot through you and the guys here. I have been hard at reading, finding old notes and engulfed in the examples and details you guys are adding.

Your example you have shown here is outstanding, and reflects the 'rugged frontier charm' I have noted with the guns of these Khyber tribes as a no-nonsense fighting weapon. It is good you have restored it to its inherent usable character, and clearly well cared for it.

I know I have seen the BARNETT name a good number of times as a well known maker of these locks for these India pattern muskets. While he and Wilson appear among the most prolific, there are others listed and I wanted to add them with what I found in yesterdays reading:
Blair; Sutherland; Brander; Egg; Goff; Henshaw; Ketland; Potts; Rea; Tow and Twigg.

Another note I found was that the year by the EIC heart or other (such as Tower or BO =board of ordnance) reflected a contract year rather than the year of manufacture. Possibly that explains the same year appearing on so many locks. Apparently 1779 and 1793 were two notable years.

It seems in 1797 the short land pattern production was ceased for that of the cheaper India pattern.

One thing I was thinking of with these jezails, and these authentic locks by these outstanding British gunsmith names. It seems in most cases, these guns are rather dismissed by the broader sector of gun collectors, and it is noted they move rather slowly and do not command high prices. It was that kind of feel I had when I acquired my example, that among collectors these would appeal only to a relatively small sector.

However, these well named locks WOULD be in high demand, for uh, 'innovative' sellers 'improving' existing British gun components (not that this ever happens :) ). I have seen the named lock alone of these flintlocks go for six hundred or more dollars.
I hope that these amazing frontier guns are safely absorbed by those of us fascinated by their history are kept intact as found in situ from the Afghan regions. Obviously these locks were reused and refurbished many times in their tribal surroundings, but keeping them in their final incarnation I would consider most important.

Just some added notes and thinking as the discussion continues, and again, I thank you all so much!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Cool, a lot better to my western eyes w/o the garish decor.


LOL! OK, point taken...….I think of Patton when somebody called the grips on his paired pistols pearl...…...instead of the actual ivory!!! :)
You're right on that though, rugged frontier charm is the real deal, but despite the decoration on mine, its character and the lock and very heft called to me.
From what I have read, these warriors were often enthralled by elaborate and flamboyant decoration in their estimation suggesting power etc.

[kahnjar1]

Maybe this is not out of place (courtesay Wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=east+india+company+rampant+lion&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj62uL4xoHkAhWGUn0KHbN2BboQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1571&bih=786
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

There are contradictory reports on the supposed advantages and disadvantages of the afghan jezail compared to the brown bess.

It may be remembered that the Jezail was a copy and largely of the brown bess and by almost accident it turned into something of a home made snipers rifle.

There are several reasons why, including the Jezails elongated barrel and its rifled twist as well as its deployment in groups of two and three shooters in the high mountain passes using plunging fire carefully aimed at massed targets struggling to pass below and where counter attack, easy on flatter ground, was impossible among vertical cliffs etc.

Here is another reason for their better marksmanship below... the bipod.


There really are conflicting views on these, and it is likely that being assembled by so many local makers there was probably a wide range of quality. I wonder if the jezail design was around in these Afghan regions much before the advent of the supplies of British gun locks in the mid 18th c.
I also wonder if other gun locks, or even if there were Afghan locks made without copying British ones.
I know there were matchlock jezails of course, so presumably these were copied from Indian toradors or other examples?

The effectiveness of these snipers high in cliffs and escarpments in these rugged regions were ideally situated for sniping, and as noted, the use of the bipod was key. I always think of the classic movie "Gunga Din" and these snipers unleashing their fire on the British columns.

[Jim McDougall]

Maybe this is not out of place (courtesay Wikipedia)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=east+india+company+rampant+lion&tbm=isch&source=hp&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj62uL4xoHkAhWGUn0KHbN2BboQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1571&bih=786
Stu

Not even Stu!!! Perfect links with great history and overview of the EIC, and the other link very comprehensive with many, many views of these gun locks.
The Wiki history on EIC notes the ' mystical sign of four' I was describing in the heart marking of EIC, with those type symbolisms instead of the disguised cross notion.
Thanks very much.

[kahnjar1]

There really are conflicting views on these, and it is likely that being assembled by so many local makers there was probably a wide range of quality. I wonder if the jezail design was around in these Afghan regions much before the advent of the supplies of British gun locks in the mid 18th c.
I also wonder if other gun locks, or even if there were Afghan locks made without copying British ones.
I know there were matchlock jezails of course, so presumably these were copied from Indian toradors or other examples?

The effectiveness of these snipers high in cliffs and escarpments in these rugged regions were ideally situated for sniping, and as noted, the use of the bipod was key. I always think of the classic movie "Gunga Din" and these snipers unleashing their fire on the British columns.
.....Don't forget that jezails are also found as matchlocks, so yes it is likely that they existed before the availability of British and no doubt other locks.
Stu

[Kubur]

.....Don't forget that jezails are also found as matchlocks, so yes it is likely that they existed before the availability of British and no doubt other locks.
Stu

I agree for the Sindhi matchlocks.

But I never saw any Pashtun matchlocks...
It doesnt mean that they don't exist, but it's very strange that none of them appeared in Museums or on the market...

i found one here but most likely from the Sindh
plus more examples from another - lucky - forum member...

[rickystl]

Hello All.

The interest in these guns (and Oriental guns in general) for antique gun collectors is very much a minority within a minority if you will. LOL There is more interest in the blades and armor among Ethno collectors. I can remember back when dealers would only take these guns in on a consignment basis. The lack of collector interest is the likely reason these guns have historically never brought the prices of their European counterparts. There are always exceptions of course (such as Greek origin guns). However, I have noticed in just the last 3/4 years that the auction pricing for many of these guns has trended upward.

I've only inspected one Jazail of obvious Afghan origin that was matchlock. The others were all of Sindh origin. Although we know they existed. In fact, one of the interesting features of my Jazail shooter above is that the barrel started life as a matchlock and was later restocked as a flintlock. I kept photos of the evidence.

As mentioned, there are more remaining Jazail specimens in flintlock than percussion. This was likely due to the cost and availability of percussion caps. As a curious side note, virtually every gun of Sindh origin I've seen is either matchlock or percussion. There are a couple of flintlock variations in books/museums, but they would be considered quite rare. Almost as if the Sindh skipped the flintlock period and went from matchlock to percussion (similar to the Japanese).

Here is another Jazail from my collection. From a collectors view, this would be a favorite. The entire gun is in original, unmolested condition. The entire circumference of the butt stock is heavily decorated with pearl inlays. There is even an old museum tag this is mis-identified. LOL The barrel is smooth bore. The lock is a genuine EIC lock dated 1811. Since these first photos, I've cleaned the lock but still have to replace 3 missing pearl inlays. The barrel one this one is front heavy as most. Even most of the original black tar protection is present. This one was lucky find.

Rick

[rickystl]

AND PICS OF THE LOCK......

[Jim McDougall]

It seems I have read that matchlock ignition was used in Afghan regions on jezails for quite some time, so in retracing through Egerton (1880),on pp.140,141 I found:

On Waziris, Afridis and Mahsuds, "...their matchlocks were, until the introduction of the rifled weapons, much superior to our old 'Brown Bess' and carried up to 800 yards with accuracy".

On the Durrani's, cited by Egerton , "Moorcrofts Travels" (1824) notes that they carried matchlocks, with the 'limak' or crooked stock or flintlocks".

It would seem that the 'crooked stock' perhaps may refer to the uniquely shaped 'jezail' (though these references do not use that term) and mentions flintlock, perhaps early entries of the EIC locks.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is indeed a great thread!

Pease see the write up to the artwork below at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezail#/media/File:Mir_Alam_of_Kohistan_region_in_Afghanistan.jp g also included in a previous post at #25. Note in this painting the almost invisible two bipods shown on the right hand side of the artwork. These bipods were needed to offset and support the front heavy, long barrels of the jezail but not on all. Often these weapons were made with captured brown bess locks or converted to flintlock from matchlock later.

[Jim McDougall]

In looking into the gun locks used on these I notice that while the earlier ones with the quartered heart prevail (until use of the rampant lion in 1808) there are a good number of examples using a heart with heraldic 'flaunched' design. Both use the same configuration of the initials VEIC.

I thought I had seen this unusual design (semi circles on either side) on an EIC coin at some point and thought perhaps that might yield a clue as to why these are different. It seems that Brooker ("British Military Pistols") thought these were storekeepers marks.
In looking for the coin, I finally found the example, which was a pice (=cent) from Penang, Malay peninsula which became British colony in 1786. It was governed by the Bengal Presidency where these copper coins were minted in Calcutta.

I noticed further that makers Leigh and Barnett were prevalent makers of gun locks for EIC with 1806 issues seen with these 'flaunched' hearts. Mortimer examples (producing in 1790s) also have these hearts.

I am wondering if these locks using this type heart may have been produced for the Bengal Presidency of the EIC? It has not seemed that such specifics would have been likely, unless these makers were attending to certain requirements to a specific regional need of an EIC department.

The fact that the Bengal presidency seemed to favor this design of the EIC chop mark as indicated by these coins from Penang, while it seems in all other areas the standard quartered heart prevailed begs the question, why?

While this may seem an irrelevant query, it seems perhaps it might be pertinent to regional use of certain locks.

[Victrix]

This is indeed a great thread!

Pease see the write up to the artwork below at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezail#/media/File:Mir_Alam_of_Kohistan_region_in_Afghanistan.jp g also included in a previous post at #25. Note in this painting the almost invisible two bipods shown on the right hand side of the artwork. These bipods were needed to offset and support the front heavy, long barrels of the jezail but not on all. Often these weapons were made with captured brown bess locks or converted to flintlock from matchlock later.

What about the barrels? Where did they come from? I understand they were mainly Ottoman (Turkey?) produced? Arguably the barrels are the most important because they have to be very strong and absolutely straight, with twist rifling inside in some cases. Can’t be easy to produce something like that?

[Jim McDougall]

What about the barrels? Where did they come from? I understand they were mainly Ottoman (Turkey?) produced? Arguably the barrels are the most important because they have to be very strong and absolutely straight, with twist rifling inside in some cases. Can’t be easy to produce something like that?


A VERY good question, and I returned to Egerton (p.136),
"...Postons describes the Sindian arms as being of very superior quality, particularly the matchlock barrels, which are twisted in the Damascus style. The nobles and chiefs procure many from Persia and Constantinople, but nearly as good can be made in the country".

Op.cit. p.136,
"...the Amirs have agents in Persia, Turkey and Palestine for the purchase of swords and gun barrels".

In the listings in Egerton there are many torador matchlocks listed from Sind, all of which have the remarkably long barrels noted on the jezails, and a good number are Damascus. Many of these are from Sind, but noted with 'Afghan' type stocks.
In other listings are a good number of matchlocks, again with long barrels listed from Lahore and Delhi. Here we can see the long use of matchlocks by the Sikhs well into 19th c. These also had notably long barrels.

While the import of the quality barrels from Ottoman and Persian sources seems occasional, the making and diffusion of these long matchlock barrels would seem to have of course gone well into Khyber and environs, It seems the crafting of these barrels may well have been among the skills that developed in these areas as well.

[kahnjar1]

Well Jim, you really got me going on this thread! Makes me a little sad that I once owned a couple of other Jezails which in a hasty moment I sold.
Anyway I was surfing the 'net and came across this site describing guns from Nepal. Well worth a look, and there are EIC guns there also!
http://www.archivingindustry.com/Gunsandgunmakers/gunmarks.pdf
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

In looking into the sources for barrels, after going through more on the seemingly invariable use of EIC locks on these guns, I wondered more where the term 'jezail' came from.

Online it simply notes it as a Pashto word for these guns. So looking further I found reference to the armies of Nader Shah, who seized control of the Safavid Empire of Persia in 1730s. Among his forces were musketeers in corps termed 'jazayerchis' for the heavy caliber musket called the 'jazayer'....and these forces had existed from the time of Shah Abbas II (c 1654) using these same guns.

Nader Shah however had these men mounted on horses or mules for strategic mobility, but as dragoons they fought on foot. According to the reference these guns were flintlock, some with miguelet locks and some matchlocks. The barrel bands (rings) were half silver, rest gold (?)

This material I found online in "The Army of Nader Shah", Michael Axworthy
Iranian Studies, Vol. 40, #5, Dec, 2007.
The notes on the jazayer musket are cited from,
"Tadhkirat al Muluk", V. Minorsky ed. , Cambridge , 1943, pp.32-34

Then in reference found the Persian term jaza'il for musket.

These details are of course subject to scrutiny, but I simply added here for further look into the etymology of the word jezail. As always looking forward to insights from the linguists. :)

It seems well noted that Persian influence was powerfully present in all these Central Asian regions, so it does not seem surprising that the Persian word would become cognate in the Pashto language. There were many Afghans in the forces of Nader Shah.

[Jim McDougall]

Well Jim, you really got me going on this thread! Makes me a little sad that I once owned a couple of other Jezails which in a hasty moment I sold.
Anyway I was surfing the 'net and came across this site describing guns from Nepal. Well worth a look, and there are EIC guns there also!
http://www.archivingindustry.com/Gunsandgunmakers/gunmarks.pdf
Stu



Me too Stu!!
I always wanted one, but as things often go, never got one (OK I wanted to climb on the pyramids too, and get a '32 Ford, but gotta be real!).
All of a sudden Im in the middle of the Southwest in the bookmobile, and bang! I got one! :)
So in my usual insane quest (=research?) I have been at it day and night.
I did come across some of this on many EIC weapons ending up in Nepal, so there's another quest.

What I hoped to do here is get all you guys together who have collected these and experience with them, so I can learn about 'em and so can anyone else out there curious on them can have a good reference source.

Thank you again for all your help on this.

[Victrix]

A VERY good question, and I returned to Egerton (p.136),
"...Postons describes the Sindian arms as being of very superior quality, particularly the matchlock barrels, which are twisted in the Damascus style. The nobles and chiefs procure many from Persia and Constantinople, but nearly as good can be made in the country".

Op.cit. p.136,
"...the Amirs have agents in Persia, Turkey and Palestine for the purchase of swords and gun barrels".

In the listings in Egerton there are many torador matchlocks listed from Sind, all of which have the remarkably long barrels noted on the jezails, and a good number are Damascus. Many of these are from Sind, but noted with 'Afghan' type stocks.
In other listings are a good number of matchlocks, again with long barrels listed from Lahore and Delhi. Here we can see the long use of matchlocks by the Sikhs well into 19th c. These also had notably long barrels.

While the import of the quality barrels from Ottoman and Persian sources seems occasional, the making and diffusion of these long matchlock barrels would seem to have of course gone well into Khyber and environs, It seems the crafting of these barrels may well have been among the skills that developed in these areas as well.

Thank you, Jim. Fascinating how there has always been trade, transfer of knowledge for local manufacturing, and loan words, etc. Nothing new under the sun...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you, Jim. Fascinating how there has always been trade, transfer of knowledge for local manufacturing, and loan words, etc. Nothing new under the sun...


How right you are.All this information is out there, but it takes asking the right questions and finding it. I had not realized about the barrels and was focused on the locks, so thanks to you I was able to look further. I cannot believe how much I have learned on these guns since starting this thread, yet how far from so much more there is to learn.
Its all an adventure !! :)

[Richard G]

Other than EIC or locally made locks there is possibly, or probably,a third type of lock that can confuse the issue.
It is known the EIC purchased lesser quality arms for trading purposes, in Africa on the voyage out, and to customers in India etc.
How many, and how they were marked? - I don't know; but it is certainly a possibility that there were British made EIC 'style' locks, but not actually EIC owned, in circulation in India.
Regards
Richard
PS Harding says he does not know why the 'flaunched' balemark was used, but implies it may have strayed from the ownership mark on other EIC owned goods e,g. the lead seals on bales of cloth.

[corrado26]

Me too Stu!!
I always wanted one, but as things often go, never got one

If you have problems in getting a nice Afghan jezail just visit him, he has enough for sale
corrado26

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

If you have problems in getting a nice Afghan jezail just visit him, he has enough for sale
corrado26

Chicken Street was awash with guns locally made but they are easy to spot and many are more or less the same decoration when no two could be the same..the give aways being various like inside-out letters or no wear on the swivels and look at the trigger guards which are flimsy useless things on the newly knocked up stuff. (the trigger guard on the gun held by the chap in the picture is one of those.)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There was an interesting question on gun barrels and I think elgood points to areas where they were made . certainly Sinde made barrels and also Persian variants were traded...as would barrels be traded in by Ottoman and other countries. I have a couple of pictures of Sinde guns below... which were almost made on the doorstep and in the manner of traditional twist barrel technology.

[Jim McDougall]

Other than EIC or locally made locks there is possibly, or probably,a third type of lock that can confuse the issue.
It is known the EIC purchased lesser quality arms for trading purposes, in Africa on the voyage out, and to customers in India etc.
How many, and how they were marked? - I don't know; but it is certainly a possibility that there were British made EIC 'style' locks, but not actually EIC owned, in circulation in India.
Regards
Richard
PS Harding says he does not know why the 'flaunched' balemark was used, but implies it may have strayed from the ownership mark on other EIC owned goods e,g. the lead seals on bales of cloth.



Very good points Richard, and in examining the varying character of the locks we might find on these jezails, it is necessary to consider the ever present dynamic of trade.
'The evil trade', that is the 'slave trade' was indeed an element of British networks, and the Royal African Company was formed in the late 17th c. where muskets were among the commodities traded for slaves.
Most of the British involvement in this dark trade system was throughout the 18th century, but manufacture of trade muskets continued long after the abolition of slavery in 1833.

Without venturing further into these complex areas, what is known is that the primary source of these 'trade' muskets was in Birmingham, where several thousand 'gunmakers' worked in the 'gun quarter' of that industrial city. Actually, the components were produced by many subcontractors and the locks produced in the regions along road to Birmingham later known as the 'Black Country' (coal presence) and heavy industry.

In addition to those trade muskets produced for the African trade, were the famed 'Northwest Guns' which were made for the North American markets.
These muskets for the Northwest Fur Trade became well known from c1775 and were traded to American Indian tribes. In about 1805, guns for the Hudsons Bay Company trade began using a snake or dragon on the sideplate which became the key criteria for acceptance by the Indians.

As with the African guns, many of these were of notoriously low quality, and their reputation for blowing up with disastrous results brought the terms 'blood merchants' to the makers who produced these, and to the African examples as well. Naturally this poor character did not apply to all examples but was still well known.

One of the most prolific makers of these trade guns (or at least on the locks) was BARNETT . I believe that name was only one I have seen on a Northwest gun, but never on an African example as far as I have seen.

I have not found any particular lock markings on the locks of the African examples of flintlock trade guns but the Royal African Company had a castle and an elephant, so perhaps that might be considered.

With the 'Northwest' guns, the locks were marked often with a circle enclosing a sitting fox like animal facing right below the pan.

While it seems that these varied locks were typically placed on guns to the appropriate distributions, it is always possible that they became diffused into the components of guns being sent to other contract completions. With huge volumes of components to many 'setters up' to assemble them there are many possibilities in the Birmingham context.

Even after the production stages, distribution via trade, there are still many circumstances where weapons may have been captured, traded away, or taken by individuals moving or transporting to other contexts.

All of these situations from 'one off' to larger circumstances such as surplus or replaced arms should be recognized as potentially viable considerations in evaluating weapon examples.

For example, the sale of over 400,000 India pattern muskets to Mexico in 1821 after the end of the Napoleonic campaigns left huge surpluses.
As far as I know, although these were 'India' pattern Brown Bess muskets, they were not marked with EIC trademarks but the standard government inspection and TOWER.


Pictured Barnett flintlock 'Northwest' gun with sitting wolf cartouche below pan.
The flintlock remained in demand well into the 19th century due to the difficulty on procuring percussion caps in remote circumstances, where obtaining flints and powder was far more accessible.

[Jim McDougall]

There was an interesting question on gun barrels and I think elgood points to areas where they were made . certainly Sinde made barrels and also Persian variants were traded...as would barrels be traded in by Ottoman and other countries. I have a couple of pictures of Sinde guns below... which were almost made on the doorstep and in the manner of traditional twist barrel technology.


Thank you for these great pics! I am always puzzled by the shape of these stocks. I had the idea that Sind examples were straighter, but in some of the reading I have done the Sind guns are noted with 'Afghan' stocks.
So were these guns being made for Afghan sale or trade, or was there really not such a distinct denominator in the preference?

There can be no doubt of the trade diffusion through all these regions which would have carried Persian goods including arms and parts. The Damascus or twisted steel barrels seem to have been traded considerably rather than fully assembled guns in many cases. I think the thing to remember is that typically, whether England, Europe or Middle East, the components of weapons were often if not typically, produced by various vendors.

I was also reading about octagonal barrels, which seem to come up on many of these guns. It suggests that the octagonal shape on steel stock is far easier to complete as a drilled barrel than the round, and if I am understanding correctly better for hunting and range with sturdier (thicker?) structure.
I don't recall if there were specific areas in Sind for guns or barrels, and while there must have been many places, the one that comes to mind in the Khyber is Darra Khel.

[Jim McDougall]

PS Harding says he does not know why the 'flaunched' balemark was used, but implies it may have strayed from the ownership mark on other EIC owned goods e,g. the lead seals on bales of cloth.


I think this is a hard question as during the times it was simply a practical matter of marking goods, and probably not of vital strategic importance.
It seems there was a certain level of autonomy in the Presidencies, but Bengal seems to have been the only one to deviate with this 'flaunched' heraldic design in its interpretation of the EIC chop mark. If I recall correctly, Harding did not choose to use the term bale mark despite the purpose of these markings for ownership on goods.

As the 'flaunched' mark seems 'officially' used on the coinage of the Bengal presidency (even though Penang) it seems more than simply a storekeepers mark, which is what Harding suggested. With that, its use on these gun locks, it would seem that the makers whose name appear with them may have had specific contracts to that Presidency.

Returning to the question of the 'four' atop the heart, again I recall that Harding did follow the idea that this was an extra line added to the cross (the original GCE mark of early EIC was a cross and orb) to avoid offending Muslim trade partners. He did not agree with my suggestion that it may be the 'mystical sign of four' and representing astrological Jupiter and with talismanic properties in protecting EIC ships and goods.
Also the idea of the '4' being a sail is interesting, as to signify the sail over the heart and VEIC initials signifying their maritime worldwide trade.

The heart itself has been regarded as a Christian symbol, and the idea of the cross being disguised as a '4' to me seems unlikely.

[kahnjar1]

I think this is a hard question as during the times it was simply a practical matter of marking goods, and probably not of vital strategic importance.
It seems there was a certain level of autonomy in the Presidencies, but Bengal seems to have been the only one to deviate with this 'flaunched' heraldic design in its interpretation of the EIC chop mark. If I recall correctly, Harding did not choose to use the term bale mark despite the purpose of these markings for ownership on goods.

As the 'flaunched' mark seems 'officially' used on the coinage of the Bengal presidency (even though Penang) it seems more than simply a storekeepers mark, which is what Harding suggested. With that, its use on these gun locks, it would seem that the makers whose name appear with them may have had specific contracts to that Presidency.

Returning to the question of the 'four' atop the heart, again I recall that Harding did follow the idea that this was an extra line added to the cross (the original GCE mark of early EIC was a cross and orb) to avoid offending Muslim trade partners. He did not agree with my suggestion that it may be the 'mystical sign of four' and representing astrological Jupiter and with talismanic properties in protecting EIC ships and goods.
Also the idea of the '4' being a sail is interesting, as to signify the sail over the heart and VEIC initials signifying their maritime worldwide trade.

The heart itself has been regarded as a Christian symbol, and the idea of the cross being disguised as a '4' to me seems unlikely.
I can not comment either way regarding the FLAUNCHED EIC mark, but according to the records I have of English Gun Proof marks, the QUARTERED EIC heart surmounted by the 4, was in use up 'til 1860.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

I can not comment either way regarding the FLAUNCHED EIC mark, but according to the records I have of English Gun Proof marks, the QUARTERED EIC heart surmounted by the 4, was in use up 'til 1860.
Stu

I think it is probably right that the quartered heart was likely in use until then in degree as it seems there were certain disparities in the chosen markings used by the Company through its existence ending officially in 1874.
Effectively the East India Company was ended by the Mutiny in 1857, and became governed by the Crown.

I have always been surprised (perhaps not really) that so little is known of the reasons behind chosen symbols used in the time and that mostly such detail seems to be thought of later from assumptions or contrived notions. The logo (bale mark or chop) of the EIC is often regarded as one of the earliest official trademarks, and seems to have begun in with the formation of the Company in 1600.
The first mark, essentially a cross and orb enclosing the initials GCE
'Governor and Company of merchants of London trading to the East Indies'.

In 1698, the Company was reorganized as the English East India Co. and a heart, quartered by a St. Andrews cross enclosing initials VEIC (United East India Co.) was adopted. It is tempting to think that perhaps the St. Andrews cross (the X) represented the Royal House of Stuart then in power, but that would lend to the same line of thinking of the '4' being a disguised cross to avoid offending Muslim trade partners.

While this bale mark does not seem to have appeared on arms that early, it probably was found on cargo etc. I have not yet found when these marks became placed on Company weapons but we know they were on gun locks by latter 18th c. seeming to have been around 1790s.

While the quartered heart appears to have been standard, the curious occurrence of the flaunched heart (half circles from either side of the heart) seems to have taken place from about 1805-1815 and on locks marked by many of the usual known makers.
The only evidence of other use of this distinctive variation of the heart is in the cent coin from Penang (Malay peninsula) in 1786. That was the year this area was taken over by the Bengal presidency. The coins of the next year no longer used this heart marking.

By 1808, it is claimed that the standing lion became the official marking of the EIC, at least on the gun locks, and was said to have remained in such use until c. 1839.

Clearly these dates are not hard and fast, and it would seem by the noted longevity of the quartered heart, that these markings were contemporary to each other. But the phenomenon of the flaunched heart, which remained somehow in place amidst these others for at least a decade, remains unexplained.

It would be interesting to see examples of these EIC locks with dates and whichever marks accompanied them.

Most of the locks dated seem to be from 1790s to around 1815. It is noted that locks were not date marked before 1770s, and it does not seem many after 1815 that I recall offhand.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
You mention Penang as having a connection to EIC. Here is a little history linking the two through Charles Cornwallis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cornwallis,_1st_Marquess_Cornwallis Particularly relevent is the section on the CORNWALLIS CODE.
Also some pics of Fort Cornwallis in Georgetown, Penang taken when we were there a few years back. Hope this is of interest.
Stu

[rickystl]

Jim: Again, thanks for starting this super interesting Thread. And thanks for your research. Most helpful.

LOCKS: Every flintlock lock I've examined on a Jazail of Afghan origin was either a genuine EIC lock or a locally made copy. (Although I now recall seeing one with an unmarked European lock that I believe was from Belgium). It's likely the EIC Armories would have spare locks in their inventory to replace broken/worn locks on their muskets. While the British were known for keeping good records, it is conceivable that many of these spare locks found their way into Afghan hands one way or the other. LOL
It would seem that the Afghan gunsmiths/customers considered the India pattern Brown Bess lock and trade variants to be the "standard" for building Jazails (?) Even the locally made copies attempt to stylistically copy the same lock. Also, as mentioned above, we can't exclude the probability of exporting the locks only for sale/trade in the Region.
BARRELS: The barrels on Afghan made Jazails seem to originate from regions elsewhere. Persia, Sindh, even Ottoman. I've even seen one with a Northern Indian style Torrador barrel. One common theme was the re-use of older barrels from different regions. You even see this on better quality Jazails.

Here is another good example from my collection: Also in unmolested condition, this Jazail is heavily decorated with pierced brass and punched iron mounts. The genuine EIC lock is marked HIRST (another prolific British maker) and dated 1799. The lock plate and hammer are flat versus round faced. The most interesting feature is the barrel, which is chiseled and fluted. The barrel (probably Persian) is much earlier than the rest of the gun. There is a Persian style makers stamp on the top breech of the barrel that looks like it was originally gold filled (now missing).I need to study this gun further.

Rick

[rickystl]

SOME MORE PICS...........

[Kubur]

SOME MORE PICS...........

Woaw Rick this is a masterpiece!!!
The same barrels are on the abufitila Omani matchlocks and according to Elgood they are Persians...

[Jim McDougall]

Rick, this topic has indeed become totally fascinating with this thread, and thanks to you and the guys who have brought your experience, examples and expertise into these pages. For me it has been an entire learning curve, and actually it was my goal to learn more on these after I finally found one!
I hoped that this discussion would not only become a kind of resource for material and observations on these guns, but increase awareness of them in the collectors field, and that has definitely been achieved thanks to you guys.

It does seem like the character of these jezails indeed represents that of 'frontier weapons', that is arms which are often, if not typically, assembled with composite components and locally made elements bringing them together.
With the formidable reputation of the jezail itself as a deadly weapon with the skills of both the artisans crafting them and the tribesmen using them, it would seem the British locks became the standard for that particular element.

While the locks themselves seem to have been in abundant supply, the tribal armourers of course learned to duplicate the markings of British EIC locks in degree. Naturally these were more crudely applied and unawareness of the proper associations of the markings' purpose led to incongruent combinations such as VR (Queen Victoria) with 1815 date or similar pairings.
It seems like even when markings were worn off, there were even attempts to 'touch them up'. It is as if the markings themselves carried some sort of imbuement to the power or quality of the weapon.

As you have noted, the possibility of export of these locks into these regions by vendors dealing with the EIC for specific trade with tribal groups is a distinct possibility. There were many instances of such 'private enterprise' with arms in India before and during the 'Raj', and while most weapons filtered through government channels for forces there, there are many cases where items were sent there outside these administrative venues.

I agree with Kubur, this example you have posted with the wonderfully marked lock, the maker who seems well represented in these, and especially that fantastic barrel!! This example perfectly illustrates the kind of comprehensive quality of these guns quintessentially !! :)

Stu, thank you for that link.....I had no idea of Cornwallis involved with EIC. Naturally we know him well in the US from our Revolutionary War history but totally unaware of his extended career into EIC.

[rickystl]

Hi Kubur

Very observant of you. LOL I feel confident that the barrel started life mounted to an Omani matchlock. It's style and proportions are identical. I need to remove the lock and study the area around the vent hole. The Omani matchlock barrels had their priming pan mounted integral with the barrel. There should be evidence of the original priming pan having been cut off/removed for reuse with a flintlock.
Again, more evidence of reuse of a barrel from a different gun from a different location.

Meantime, here is one more from my collection. The lock on this one is another genuine EIC lock marked WRIGHT, and dated 1803. The barrel is somewhat of a mystery. It reminds me somewhat of the Torador style barrels from Northern India, but lacks the swollen breech area common with those barrels. At some point, the barrel looks like it was subjected to a harsh chemical cleaning. Which probably erased any evidence of damascus pattern. Too bad. I'll have to take the barrel off and study the breech plug area to confirm my initial guess. But I do have a latter period munitions grade Torador with a broken stock that has a very similar barrel. I need to study this gun further also. The trigger guard and front sling swivel (which would have been made from horn in this instance) are missing. As well, the wood ramrod is a modern replacement. Yet another project. LOL

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Rick, you have a truly amazing collection, and your observations and insights are great as I try to learn more on these Afghan guns. As noted, with the EIC locks invariably used on these, it is important to understand as much as possible on the dynamics of EIC supply and how these components filtered into Afghan armorers hands.

It would seem that a primary source of many guns and components were probably attained during the First Anglo-Afghan war 1839-42 where forces of primarily EIC native troops and numbers of British units invaded Afghan regions. There were staggering numbers of the EIC guns about, particularly in the disastrous retreat from Kabul to Jallalabad, where over 4000 troops (and over 12,000 civilians) were killed or died in the trek through terrible winter conditions. Only one medical officer survived.
The weapons from these forces must have provided huge numbers of parts as well as others supplied in subsequent years.

While we assume that many of the locks on these jezails were often misjoined and duplicated by native tribal armourers, while it seems that in actuality there may have been certain curious alignments in the production of the India pattern guns before they even got to India.

Apparently the lock plates themselves were fashioned by makers in the Wolverhampton area of Birmingham, while hammers etc. were produced by other vendors. Then the entire guns were assembled by other producers and proved. With these dynamics it is easy to see where certain anomalies might occur, and trying to set exact dates for changes very difficult. One thing emphasized was that the EIC weapons seemed to have carried a higher quality standard, for example using the bun type hammer screw which strengthened the shaft of the tumbler.

Putting together these kinds of particulars I think will be important to better understanding the locks used in these jezails, and apparently reused over generations.

[rickystl]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your kind comments. One thing I find amazing is the volume of original (non-tourist) specimens still available today. They show up at auctions and websites all over North America and Europe. This, along with other reference material leads me to believe these Afghan style Jezails must have experienced a sort of renaissance type period along the frontier. Maybe from about 1790 to say 1860 in both flintlock and eventual percussion variations. We then see the use of the 1853 British Enfield style rifled muskets and their later Snider conversions, and eventually the Martini-Henry (of which many local copies were made).
The locally made flintlock locks on most I've examined generally copy the Third Model British/EIC lock pattern. The percussion locks somewhat copy the British Enfield pattern percussion locks. The fact that locally made copies of these locks were made would appear to be evidence that the local demand for these Jazails exceeded the supply of readily available British/European made locks.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
Though not entirely related to Jezails, but including some information about them, is this link placed on the current Martini Henry thread. I thought it of interest as it tells of arms smuggling to the Frontier during the 19th and 20th centuries. Interesting reading IMHO.
https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunrunning-to-the-northwest-frontier-and-the-crash-of-1910/
Further, the map shows that Baluchistan and Afghanistan were originally next door to each other, which would also explain why the Jezail and "Sindi" guns were both described as Afghani.

I wonder if what we collectors have called "Sindi" guns should more correctly be called Baluch......food for thought.

Just as an observation....in the first pic both the long guns shown are matchlocks, while the guy on the right has what appears to be a percussion pistol tucked into his belt.

Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Ricky,
It truly is amazing how many non tourist items there really are, and it is hard to imagine the volume of these guns made through the years that ended up stashed away for countless years. I know that a arms collections themselves can end up stashed away for generations, and ultimately end up being revealed and of course sold off.

In my early fascination with "King of the Khyber Rifles" (uh, many many moons ago, the movie was 1953!!) and I got caught up in researching it all in the 80s. I was intrigued by the 'Khyber Rifles' unit, and pretty much wanted to have a progressive grouping of the guns they used. I got the Snider Enfield and Martini Henry OK, but it wasn't til earlier this month I finally got a jezail.

Stu,
Excellent article!! and great insight into the dynamics of the gun trade in these regions, which really explains a lot.
These 'borders' were exceptionally diaphanous in the 19th century, and even more so were tribal territories so it is quite understandable how the terms Sindhi, Baluch and Afghan became often interpolated or collectively used.
Thanks very much for the great input.
Interesting on the photo to see matchlocks in parallel to percussion !

Thanks guys,
Jim

[kronckew]

Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM_jVv1RDk8

Cool, but too much khukuri throwing.

Saw a few jezhails too. I gather the cartridge grease religious thing was a lie - and they were actually greased with vegetable based grease.

"We have blades of steel"

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Wayne!!! An absolutely great nostalgic movie, with the pageantry of those great films of yesteryear. Forget accuracy, in those days it was all just the magic of the big screen .

Not sure I recall kukri throwing.
I had not recalled the Indian Mutiny being in this either. Like much of the lore of India and the Raj, the 'greased cartridge' case was dramatically seized upon, though the circumstances causing the rebellion were far more complex.
The cartridges for the new rifled Enfields were indeed initially greased, through horrendous oversight by the British administration with pig tallow in those issued from England; the ones made at the Dum Dum arsenal with cow tallow....thereby totally alienating the Muslim as well as Hindu sepoys.

The huge faux pas was realized quickly and orders from Bengal directed all extant cartridges be issued only to European forces; the native troops to create their own tallow of choice; and the entire drill to have cartridges broken open by fingers rather than teeth.
It was too late, the battle cry issued, and the disinformative info claiming vegetable fat fell flat on its face.

In all, a bit of a 'sticky wicket' which exploded catastrophically.

[David R]

My interest in this thread was recently revived by me actually getting one of these at last. On a previous thread there was a comment as to what 10 rupees was worth in real terms, and being the sort of person I am I found out. In 1898 it comes out as £157 in modern UK money, and about $200, working from the gold standard as it was on at the time. Now the pictures, my Jezail, and working out of the conversion.

[SchildaBrit]

OK, don't all laugh, but I'm seriously considering acquiring a jezail, to see how it shoots.

Has anyone out there actually seriously fired one of these, as a target rifle?

Hoping to get some serious answers,
Patrick

[kahnjar1]

Suggest you PM RICKYSTL. I know he has shot these (and is still with us!!.
:o )
Stu

[rickystl]

Thanks Stu

Received a PM from Patrick.

Rick

[SchildaBrit]

OK, it took a long time, thanks to Covid range restrictions etc.

But I did it.

See the new thread!