Shipping from Italy

[eftihis]

I bought some items from Czerny's last auction in Italy. According to them, something has changed in Italy, and only a specialised (?) shipping company can handle antique weapons. The result is that me and fellow collectors got extremely expensive shipping quotes like 300 euro for a single flintlock pistol! Can anyone guide me to a reasonable cost shipping solution? It is from Italy to Greece so it is inside EU and there are no customs involved.

[corrado26]

I think that there is no solution for this problem and the reason why I never buy anyhing at Italian auction houses. For you it will be probably cheaper to book a flight to Verona or plan a trip by car.
corrado26

[Victrix]

I think it will be tricky to try and take it out through Italian customs yourself? It took months to get my rapier sent to me and I understand it was due to Italian customs, or possibly the ”warehouse.” :shrug:

[corrado26]

As you pass the Italian and Greek customs inside the EU there should be no control of the goods in your car. They may control just yourself that's all.

I do not know Italian prescriptions concerning the sending of arms by postal services. But in case these are the same idiotic prescriptions as in Great Britain, than it is absolutely impossible to send a rapier from Italy to your homeadress.
corrado26

[Jens Nordlunde]

Many shipping companies, almost all, will not transport weapons of any kind.
I think you will have to contact the international shipping companies working in Greece, to ask if they will do it, and what it will cost.

[Kubur]

They are thieves, they asked me 100 euros to ship 3 books.
Yes postage regulations have changed all over Europe.
But for Czernys they are just thieves and they do their money with shipping.
I will never buy or sell with them again.
This has nothing to do with your pistol... Good luck my friend

[Victrix]

As you pass the Italian and Greek customs inside the EU there should be no control of the goods in your car. They may control just yourself that's all.

I do not know Italian prescriptions concerning the sending of arms by postal services. But in case these are the same idiotic prescriptions as in Great Britain, than it is absolutely impossible to send a rapier from Italy to your homeadress.
corrado26

Yes it may work by car. I understand the Italian authorities require permits to export antiques outside of Italy, whether it’s within the EU or not. Apparently it takes a long time acquiring these permits. But I’m no expert and not keen to become one as I will try not to repeat the experience! :D

[rickystl]

Not the last auction, but the previous Czerny's auction, I purchased a detached snaphaunce gun lock (lock only). A small item weighing less than 3-lbs. (1.4kg) cost nearly $100.00 USD to ship to the USA. Shipped by Air Courier - and still took 2 months to receive it.
Imagine the shipping quote I would receive to ship a complete long gun to the States !!

If the regulations have recently changed to something more similar to that of the U.K. with "specialized" licensed shippers, I think that Czerny's may loose a large amount of potential bidders going forward. They should publish the current regulations (and any changes)for shipping outside of Italy along with each auction so the bidder can make a determination whether or not to bid.

Rick

[mariusgmioc]

This issue is not only with Czerny's.

I had to pay extortionate prices to have blades sent to the Netherlands from UK and especially from US.

For me, so far Czerny's provided quite reasonable shipping prices.

[Will M]

My last sword cost 134£ to pack and ship from the UK to Canada.
Once I bought a small lot of 3 kukri and they wanted 150£. I told them I have shipped boxes 3x the size for 100£ and they then dropped the price to 100£, still ridiculous.
One must buy at a low price, get a item worth much more to make it worthwhile.
I also experienced most shippers will not send antique swords. DHL is now on the list with UPS for not taking them. I've had UPS twice take them in and then take over a week to return to sender. Now Parcelforce is the only one I know of who will ship and that's using a inventive description without using the word "sword"

[mariusgmioc]

It seems that common sense is replaced with idiotic rules and regulations everywhere.

Like there were so many crimes produced with antique swords, daggers or guns... There are much more crimes produced with kitchen knives, yet there are no restrictions on those.

No more common sense, no more normality, but a plethora of rules and regulations to replace any trace of rational thinking.

Humanity has entered a downwards spiral to insanity! :(

[mariusgmioc]

It seems that common sense is replaced with idiotic rules and regulations everywhere.

Like there were so many crimes produced with antique swords, daggers or guns... There are much more crimes produced with kitchen knives, yet there are no restrictions on those.

No more common sense, no more normality, but a plethora of rules and regulations to replace any trace of rational thinking.

Humanity has entered a downwards spiral to insanity! :(

PS: Regarding the cost of shipping, I believe in some situations can be justified. First, the shipping company has to pick up the item from the auction house. Then it has to be carefully packed and only then can it be shipped. So it is not only the cost of shipping that we are requested to pay, but also the cost of picking up the items and the cost of packing them.

[ariel]

Ain’t no insanity. Pure psychology. They have your credit card and charge it + auction fee.

Having paid it, do you want to actually get it? Sure you do, otherwise you have lost a heap of money.

So, you grind your teeth and pay for shipping.
It is the oldest scam: in for a penny, in for a pound.

[Will M]

It can seem as a scam when you know the actual price of shipping, a box and bubble wrap is inexpensive. You pay for the labour but they would be picking up many items in an auction making one or two trips to collect. In 3 years it's gone from 80£ to 130£. I've been tempted just to leave the item with the auctioneer and have him resell it with a proper description which would make a profit.
In the US it costs about $20 for packaging and $70 to ship, far less than UK prices, we are closer though, but half price of the UK.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Marius, you are right. Most doent think of this.


Ariel, ha, ha, yes you are right - there are honest firms - but you will have to look for them.


Will, why do you bid in Europe when you know the conditions?

[ariel]

double

[Philip]

This issue is not only with Czerny's.

I had to pay extortionate prices to have blades sent to the Netherlands from UK and especially from US.

For me, so far Czerny's provided quite reasonable shipping prices.

I, too, have had generally good experiences with Czernys' shipping. If I win something, I ask them to calculate the shipping and add it to the invoice and I pay the whole thing at once. The item arrives, usually within 2-3 weeks of my payment. Hermann Historica has also been quite reliable and quick.

Between my colleague in Haarlem and myself, we have a reasonable and pretty efficient shipping arrangement. He sends blades to me for restoration via Netherlands post, they arrive via USPS San Francisco entry point in a week to 10 days. I send to him via USPS express mail or on his courier account, likewise quick. UPS still takes antique weapons between our countries. But the post is a lot less expensive; at any rate I like to do a combo shipment with multiple items so the cost is pro-rated and a lot more economical.

[kahnjar1]

....and another "scam" is the Ebay Global Shipping scheme. USPS/Royal Mail/Parcelforce is about half the cost and twice as quick in my experience. I will not bid on sellers who insist on using the Ebay Global Shipping.

As far as shipping from Italy is concerned I once lost an item which was "tracked" all the way from the seller to the Italian Customs clearance and then......NOTHING. Thru the "back door" I found that the item had in fact been returned to the seller, but he denied that!!! What else can one do but not buy from him again!
Stu

[Philip]

I also experienced most shippers will not send antique swords. DHL is now on the list with UPS for not taking them. I've had UPS twice take them in and then take over a week to return to sender. Now Parcelforce is the only one I know of who will ship and that's using a inventive description without using the word "sword"

Keep in mind that commercial carriers (courier services like UPS, FedEx, DHL, et al) set their own rules as regards to shipping "weapons" (antique or otherwise) that are independent of national laws regarding ownership or sale of same. They tend not to distinguish between antique and modern, just as
the enforcers of CITES like to turn blind to the distinction between antique ivory and new tsatshkes. Furthermore, the regs can change without notice, and different standards operate in different geographic service areas.

As someone in the biz (mainly restoration), I know firsthand what a nightmare this is. To illustrate (mind you, as examples only and not intended as guidance on your current decision-making), consider this from my experience over the past few years up til now:

1. I used to use FedEx a lot for overseas and domestic (within the US) because their service and tracking is quite good and they tend to beat up parcels less than UPS or the post). However, as of this past spring they have stopped accepting all weapons of any age, even swords and bows/arrows, for overseas transport. This, breaking just as a valuable saber was being sent to me from Europe, caused a real headache on my end.

2. A friend purchased some antique spears from a source in Thailand a couple years back and UPS refused to accept it.

3. But Czernys has used UPS to ship antique firearms outside the EU for some years until UPS backed out in 2017. I bought a fine flintlock fowler from them that year and it was a 9 month journey with fits and starts, first to Belgium and from there to the UK where a freight forwarder licensed to handle firearms sent it to me for a princely sum (fortunately I was able to combine it with another gun bought in the UK and pro-rate the costs). Last year Czernys told me that UPS was "on" again, but I have not tested it simply because nothing in the way of guns offered since has tempted me to bid.

4. UPS ships antique guns within the EU at least for now. But not from Germany overseas. In March I bought a flintlock at Hermann H, they sent it by UPS to someone in a EU country who forwarded it via post with some swords. (US postal regulations have no restrictions on entry of either flintlocks or swords), The cost of both legs of the journey was a fraction of what I paid to the UK firm (see above) and my local customs broker for their services in 2017.

5. I was told that a collector in the US recently received a matchlock musket via UPS from Europe, no problem. Customs declaration stated "matchlock, antique over 100 years old".

The point of this litany is that there is no rhyme or reason to these rules which have little or nothing to do with law, they are just policies created by the giant corporations that are increasingly dominating our lives. (maybe it could be worse, we could be hoeing and scything on manorial land owned by feudal lords).

For now, I mostly use the post for shipping out of the US*, have not had a problem TO DATE, even describing swords as decorative or ornamental, antique over 100 years old. No problem receiving stuff via post either; I'm not too concerned with the occasional Fish and Wildlife inspection for CITES material since I make it clear to customers that I won't accept it on objects for restoration. *to EU and Scandinavia, Canada, Aus/NZ. Israel, Hong Kong addresses -- I avoid having to deal with other regions for obvious reasons. Japan is a special case too since of the country's very tight restrictions on swords.

[kai]

I also did experience shipping quotes from Czerny’s which seemed to be in line with other auctions. If you find a cheaper carrier, I‘d guess they would be happy to hand over your piece and even do the packing for a nominal fee.

If I understand correctly, the main issue with Italy are national legislations imposing quite a bit of rules and associated paperwork on selling and shipping hot as well as cold iron... Even traveling with a very simple pocket knife is pretty much outlawed - I’m sure this really helps with fighting the mafia... :rolleyes:

As Philip points out, the idiosyncratic rules of the carriers are often a greater pain than national and international regulations. Even USPS is known to decline overseas shipping of items which are perfectly legal and not restricted in the destination country (as well as the US)! :(

And, yes, ebay’s global shipping makes things even worse and is much more expensive than any regular shipping including customs fees. :(

Did I mention my pet peeve - currency exchange rates and fees? :(

Regards,
Kai

[Philip]

Did I mention my pet peeve - currency exchange rates and fees? :(

Regards,
Kai

Kai, this is a bugaboo that hits all of us who need to pay or receive money across borders. It can feel like highway robbery. PayPal uses a crummy rate (for us, not them). Bank rates may be better depending on where you have your account -- but wire transfer fees are a ripoff. For instance, my bank charges me a $15 flat rate fee just to receive a transfer and post it to my account balance. International wires, that involve a currency exchange en route, invariably trigger "intermediary bank fees" that leave the recipient anywhere from $15 to $20 short, depending on the size of the payment. A recent payment from a customer in Europe (outside the euro zone) left me $24 shy of the invoice amount due to these intermediary fees.

For some years now, I have been using, for international transactions, an online service called TransferWise. It uses an electronic funds transfer system that's fast, offers very competitive exchange rates, and only charges a miniscule service fee to the sender. The best thing is that the payee gets exactly the amount you send, no intermediary bank or currency-exchange fees added on. You can find out how it works from their website. It doesn't get any more painless than this.

[Philip]

As Philip points out, the idiosyncratic rules of the carriers are often a greater pain than national and international regulations. Even USPS is known to decline overseas shipping of items which are perfectly legal and not restricted in the destination country (as well as the US)! :(



Regards,
Kai

Just got an email from a customer in Germany who wants to send some blades for polishing. Says that the Deutsche Post's parcel service is now run by DHL, and apparently swords are now on their no-take list. UPS will accept weapons so long as they are not firearms (but apparently some auctioneers can use UPS to ship guns within the EU as I pointed out previously).

Now, the kickier: UPS is saying that they will transport his swords but they don't take antiques! No kidding...

Back in the 1980s when I was living in Hawaii I had two problems with UPS and their antiques policy. One, they refused to accept a rare book that I wanted to send to a buyer in England. No artwork, unique collectibles, nor anything "irreplaceable" I was told. Two, I had to battle them tooth and nail for compensation to repair a Russian samovar that they damaged in transit. Tried to deny the claim based on it being antique. I finally convinced them that it was not old, it was "second hand merchandise", not unlike the household crap that bazillions of people ship thru UPS every day. Fortunately the idiots couldn't read the Russian inscription "Sankt Peterburg 1906" stamped on it.

Now, my colleague in the Netherlands has used his shipping consolidator account to cover the charges for the restored stuff I send back to him, invariably UPS gets the pick because of their better rates. All of the stuff is antique and described as such on the declaration form. UPS hasn't uttered a peep about that! Where is the logic?

As to your comment on USPS (US Snail Mail), occasionally a counter clerk will give you the song and dance about "swords are weapons and you can't send them". Simply take the parcel to another station. There is no rule against sending either swords or antiques -- this becomes apparent if you go through the process of preparing international shipping labels on their website since each country's import rules pop up on the screen..

I always recommend to US-based colleagues that if they use US mail, it's best to open an online account and thus prepare your shipping labels and customs dec (for overseas shipments) forms on your computer. That way you just drop off your box for scanning, with labels in the pouch. The clerks don't generally read line-by-line so that removes the temptation to act as impromptu enforcer of an imaginary regulation. If you do the forms by hand, they tend to check more closely.

[Sajen]

Hello Eftihis,

I know your problem, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24795&highlight=z%FCrich
But like Kai and Philip I know that Czernys' shipping isn't expensive normally! There will be a reason, ask them for the reason. Hope that you will find a solution for the problem.

Regards,
Detlef

[vilhelmsson]

I purchased at Czerny's March auction. The shipping price wasn't too bad. 210 euros for 2 swords and a chainmail shirt to the US.

But there were fish and wildlife holds in Italy and the US, as well as an FDA hold, and it took about a month.

In my discussion with the agency official inspecting my package whom UPS connected me with, I forget whether it was US FDA or F&W, they said that both agencies randomly inspect antiques shipments valued at over $1,000 and it can take a while once they get their mitts on it.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Philip.....Interesting first comment of yours regarding Deutschepost/DHL. I have just received a sword from Germany sent by this method and correctly described as a sword, so something does not ring true here.
StuJust got an email from a customer in Germany who wants to send some blades for polishing. Says that the Deutsche Post's parcel service is now run by DHL, and apparently swords are now on their no-take list. UPS will accept weapons so long as they are not firearms (but apparently some auctioneers can use UPS to ship guns within the EU as I pointed out previously).

Now, the kickier: UPS is saying that they will transport his swords but they don't take antiques! No kidding...

Back in the 1980s when I was living in Hawaii I had two problems with UPS and their antiques policy. One, they refused to accept a rare book that I wanted to send to a buyer in England. No artwork, unique collectibles, nor anything "irreplaceable" I was told. Two, I had to battle them tooth and nail for compensation to repair a Russian samovar that they damaged in transit. Tried to deny the claim based on it being antique. I finally convinced them that it was not old, it was "second hand merchandise", not unlike the household crap that bazillions of people ship thru UPS every day. Fortunately the idiots couldn't read the Russian inscription "Sankt Peterburg 1906" stamped on it.

Now, my colleague in the Netherlands has used his shipping consolidator account to cover the charges for the restored stuff I send back to him, invariably UPS gets the pick because of their better rates. All of the stuff is antique and described as such on the declaration form. UPS hasn't uttered a peep about that! Where is the logic?

As to your comment on USPS (US Snail Mail), occasionally a counter clerk will give you the song and dance about "swords are weapons and you can't send them". Simply take the parcel to another station. There is no rule against sending either swords or antiques -- this becomes apparent if you go through the process of preparing international shipping labels on their website since each country's import rules pop up on the screen..

I always recommend to US-based colleagues that if they use US mail, it's best to open an online account and thus prepare your shipping labels and customs dec (for overseas shipments) forms on your computer. That way you just drop off your box for scanning, with labels in the pouch. The clerks don't generally read line-by-line so that removes the temptation to act as impromptu enforcer of an imaginary regulation. If you do the forms by hand, they tend to check more closely.

[Philip]

In my discussion with the agency official inspecting my package whom UPS connected me with, I forget whether it was US FDA or F&W, they said that both agencies randomly inspect antiques shipments valued at over $1,000 and it can take a while once they get their mitts on it.

OK, so now we have to deal with CITES on top of shippers who fear that our little community of antiques buffs might be feeding arms to terrorists...

In the US, incoming shipments are subject to random inspections regardless of whether by post or commercial carrier. Officials with the Fish and Wildlife administration are in charge of it; they operate under the bureaucratic umbrella of the US Dept. of Agriculture, and they work hand in glove with Border Control and Customs.

You are correct in that customs declarations are flagged, via contents description and value, for these inspections. "Antiques" and any verbiage pertaining to the decorative arts will trigger an occasional look-see; it's ironic for the recipient because "antique" designation is pretty much a free pass as re: import duty exemption if the thing is over a century old.

In my experience, some dealers who regularly ship to the US might be "flagged" for regular monitoring, likewise for recipients in the US who have been tagged with a "problem" shipment issue before. It's happened with guys I know in the UK and here in the States. And some overseas dealers have led a charmed life, having shipped ivory hilted daggers to the US repeatedly over the last umpteen years til recently.

So it can be a crapshoot... But do you want to take a chance? I have two colleagues in the trade who had problems over FAUX tortoise shell veneered sword hilts, both confiscated by officials who insisted that they were the real thing. One dealer, Europe based, got his merch out of hock after several months of sending in documentation explaining why his hilt veneer was ersatz (it doesn't take a great deal of art expertise to tell the difference). The other fellow, based in the US, had a similar type of sword confiscated en route to an overseas buyer, seized before it left our shores and that case is still unresolved.

The inspections are conducted in varying degrees. Often a simple X-ray scan is enough to clear a shipment, I sometimes receive a parcel with the F&W inspection sticker or tape on the outside, but with the original sealing undisturbed. A few times, the box looked opened and resealed. No problems with undue delays resulting from this, however. I have had far greater issues with carriers erroneously routing the parcel through their hub to another state, and it falling off the tracking net for awhile. Or for postal shipments of all kinds (not just antique weapons) held up for weeks at the USPS' New York international processing center for reasons unrelated to CITES.

[Philip]

Hi Philip.....Interesting first comment of yours regarding Deutschepost/DHL. I have just received a sword from Germany sent by this method and correctly described as a sword, so something does not ring true here.
Stu

Stu, I was simply passing along some info given to me by a customer residing in Germany, who was told this by a DP/DHL guy just a couple days ago when he called them about sending his swords to me in the US.

Like you, I received a sword from Germany some months ago, accepted by DHL for overseas transport and in my case, transferred to the USPS system for delivery to me in California. No problems at least in that case.

Have policies suddenly changed, like the situation with FedEx which I had earlier just as a sword was being shipped (which I alluded to in a prior post)?
Or has my customer just been given a bum steer by the organization in response to his inquiry?

At any rate, thanks for posting this, will contact him via email to advise him of your experience, maybe he can inquire further and get a resolution to his situation.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Philip,
I think that it depends on who you get at the receiving counter. In my experience here in NZ if you happen to be "served" by an over diligent person then you get the third degree. If you are lucky, then the parcel is accepted without any problem.
Luck of the draw............. :o
Stu

[RAMBA]

I have had an item shipped from Italy - all antique items need clearance papers from the Italian Government for export from Italy - this can take a couple of weeks but the auction house should arrange for a small fee.To make sure Italian heritage is not being shipped out. Unfortunately a over efficacious official opened the package and the hilt was damaged.

I have just had a aboriginal spear thrower damaged (12 inch gash) with a box cutter again by someone opening the package - box arrived with half the things sticking out.

Just had two items from Germany sent at a reasonable price by the Auction house. 75 Euro shipped international -not cheap but i got both items at a very good price.

International shipping for even small kukri or a hand shield can range wildly from the UK. Ranging from 35 pounds to 150 or more. I have had stupid quotes for a single item. Most UK auction houses will not ship international so the options for international shipped items are limited. I recently asked for a shipping quote for 4 kukri/Bhutanese dagger sized items and I go the following prices.

Our estimate to collect, pack and ship the above mentioned Lots to Australia is :

£229.75 via Parcelforce

Or

£193.00 via DHL Express

Or

£188.00 via UPS Express


Alternatively, our estimate to collect, pack and ship the above mentioned Lots to a UK address is :

£50.90 via Parcelforce 24

Or

£46.40 via Parcelforce 48

Shipping costs for antique swords and weapons is a real issue. I have to really want the piece for my collection to pay some of the shipping quotes. And hope on the day i get it at a good price.

I recently sold a 19th C spear head to a chap in NZ and their customs seized it and he had to get police clearance to take possession of a prohibited weapon. After 6 weeks it was cleared only to be delivered to the wrong address and sit in the rain for 9 days!!!!!!!!!!!! Good one NZ Post.

Generally private sales international go much better and have less issues.

The whole international shipping issue - cost, paranoia and carelessness is a real issue for any collector or trader.

[RAMBA]

Hi Philip,
I think that it depends on who you get at the receiving counter. In my experience here in NZ if you happen to be "served" by an over diligent person then you get the third degree. If you are lucky, then the parcel is accepted without any problem.
Luck of the draw............. :o
Stu

I recently old a 19th C spear head to a chap in NZ and their customs seized it and he had to get police clearance to take possession of a prohibited weapon. After 6 weeks it was cleared only to be delivered to the wrong address and sit in the rain for 9 days!!!!!!!!!!!! Good one NZ Post.

[kahnjar1]

I recently old a 19th C spear head to a chap in NZ and their customs seized it and he had to get police clearance to take possession of a prohibited weapon. After 6 weeks it was cleared only to be delivered to the wrong address and sit in the rain for 9 days!!!!!!!!!!!! Good one NZ Post.
Hi Ramba,
I agree with the comments about NZ Post.They can be rather slack at times.

As for the spear head being held by Customs, it would have been classed by our law as a double edged knife (dagger) which DOES require a permit to import here. If it was SINGLE edged then there should be no problem, so what I am saying is that a sword or knife (single edged) are generally OK without an import permit but DOUBLE edged need a Permit to Import to NZ.
Bottom line here is that if one is buying from ANY COUNTRY, then it is the BUYERS responsibility to make sure that he or she has the right paperwork and is aware of the requirements to import an item. The Law your buyer needs to be aware of is the Customs Prohibition Import Act 2017. If he is not aware of it, then he should be IMHO.
Stu

[Ian]

Having just imported my whole collection into Australia from the U.S., and encountered similar laws to those in New Zealand, I can understand the frustration of being treated capriciously by the Customs people. It really depended on who I spoke to on any given day. The local police were very bureaucratic but entirely consistent in what they told me, unlike Customs. Fortunately, I got nearly all of my pieces through the bureaucratic maze, but it took almost a year and several rounds of paperwork. When dealing with the Australian Customs (and perhaps Customs Officers most places), I would advise being very, very patient and don't get upset with them--it doesn't help and they have all the power!

[Philip]

I have had an item shipped from Italy - all antique items need clearance papers from the Italian Government for export from Italy - this can take a couple of weeks but the auction house should arrange for a small fee..

Yes. Even an out of print book from the 1940s! I bought a copy of Malatesta's Armi ed Armaioli d'Italia last year and in the parcel was a signed and stamped certificate approving its export from Italy.

The auction house I frequently buy from in Italy handles the export paperwork, you're right about the time frame but it's not an undue burden. I have no idea what the fee is since the dispatch portion of their invoice is all rolled into one number.

[Philip]

Hi Philip,
I think that it depends on who you get at the receiving counter. In my experience here in NZ if you happen to be "served" by an over diligent person then you get the third degree. If you are lucky, then the parcel is accepted without any problem.
Luck of the draw............. :o
Stu

This is exactly the case with the US Snail and judging from your experience it must be the same worldwide with any state or quasi-governmental bureaucracy. Consider the type of people working for outfits like that ...

As you say, it's the luck of the draw. With our Post Office, you can always drive a couple miles to a station in the next postal district to find a sensible employee there.

[RAMBA]

I have been trying to obtain shipping quotes for a small wooden mask coming up for sale in the USA. International shipping - I think we have a new stupid quote of the year.

A USPS store.

"Hello

Can you also quote on shipping of this item below.

USPS and I have already had a quote of $120 USD.

Thanks

*****

***

What are the dimensions, weight and value of this mask?

Thanks ****


"16 x 9 x 4.5 inches. 1.3 KG approx or less. Value $150 USD approx.

Thanks"

****

"Good morning,

Pick-up, packaging, and shipment is apprx. $735.69. Please advise is you'd like us to proceed.

Thank you!

:confused: :confused: :mad: :mad:

[Rick]

I've never had any problems shipping internationally with the Post Office; UPS on the other hand... :rolleyes:

[Philip]

I have been trying to obtain shipping quotes for a small wooden mask coming up for sale in the USA. International shipping - I think we have a new stupid quote of the year.

A USPS store.

"Hello

Can you also quote on shipping of this item below.

USPS and I have already had a quote of $120 USD.


Hi, you have a common problem, but before i explain a possible way out, I must say that I'm a bit confused by the content of your post. You phoned a "USPS Store"? I'm sure you mean a UPS Store. The USPS (United States Postal Service aka US Snail) operates stations in each postal zone, they are not retail outlets to the extent that UPS Stores or FedEx Office locations are. Furthermore, unless you are an employee with access to secret numbers, connecting anyone at the US Snail by phone is something that requires papal intervention or an act of Congress.

OK, having said this:
1. It is an axiom that the US Snail will beat any of the commercial carriers regarding rates. That explains the differential in price mentioned in your post. In exchange for that bonus, you don't get the tracking reliability with the Snail service as the couriers offer. The exception is USPS Express Mail service, you get good performance but pay a premium for it. Still, for international shipping i find FedEx and UPS tracking to be tighter, but on the other hand FedEx no longer accepts weapons as stated in my prior posts.

2. You can get accurate rate quotes from the US Snail on their website calculator, at www.usps.com. You pay the same rate for all services whether you book online or do it over-the-counter.

3. You can likewise calculate rates for commercial carriers on their websites, www.FedEx.com or www.UPS.com. But be aware that these outfits quote different prices depending on your business status with them, and on what platform you are making your inquiry from. You'll get a certain rate as a private retail customer from the website calculator. If you have a business account and are a "volume shipper", you get a discount off the standard rate, how much depends on how much you ship per year. This amount is automatically calculated when you log in to your account before making an inquiry or purchasing service.. The WORST quotes are the ones you get on the phone or at the counter of the UPS Stores, or FedEx Offices. Those will induce real stickier shock, just as you experienced.

I guess we can chalk it up to capitalism at work. Your experience can be likened to currency exchange when traveling -- do it at the airport and you're subjecting yourself to highway robbery. Using a no-fee or low-fee credit card geared for international business travelers will save you a bundle. In other words know the market and how the players operate to choose the best, or the least painful, option for yourself. Good luck, man!

3.

[RAMBA]

Hi, you have a common problem, but before i explain a possible way out, I must say that I'm a bit confused by the content of your post. You phoned a "USPS Store"? I'm sure you mean a UPS Store. The USPS (United States Postal Service aka US Snail) operates stations in each postal zone, they are not retail outlets to the extent that UPS Stores or FedEx Office locations are. Furthermore, unless you are an employee with access to secret numbers, connecting anyone at the US Snail by phone is something that requires papal intervention or an act of Congress.

OK, having said this:
1. It is an axiom that the US Snail will beat any of the commercial carriers regarding rates. That explains the differential in price mentioned in your post. In exchange for that bonus, you don't get the tracking reliability with the Snail service as the couriers offer. The exception is USPS Express Mail service, you get good performance but pay a premium for it. Still, for international shipping i find FedEx and UPS tracking to be tighter, but on the other hand FedEx no longer accepts weapons as stated in my prior posts.

2. You can get accurate rate quotes from the US Snail on their website calculator, at www.usps.com. You pay the same rate for all services whether you book online or do it over-the-counter.

3. You can likewise calculate rates for commercial carriers on their websites, www.FedEx.com or www.UPS.com. But be aware that these outfits quote different prices depending on your business status with them, and on what platform you are making your inquiry from. You'll get a certain rate as a private retail customer from the website calculator. If you have a business account and are a "volume shipper", you get a discount off the standard rate, how much depends on how much you ship per year. This amount is automatically calculated when you log in to your account before making an inquiry or purchasing service.. The WORST quotes are the ones you get on the phone or at the counter of the UPS Stores, or FedEx Offices. Those will induce real stickier shock, just as you experienced.

I guess we can chalk it up to capitalism at work. Your experience can be likened to currency exchange when traveling -- do it at the airport and you're subjecting yourself to highway robbery. Using a no-fee or low-fee credit card geared for international business travelers will save you a bundle. In other words know the market and how the players operate to choose the best, or the least painful, option for yourself. Good luck, man!

3.

Yes sorry a UPS store - I have been in email contact. It is a real pain.

[MForde]

My last sword cost 134£ to pack and ship from the UK to Canada.

Was it a larger item than usual? I've sent many swords from the UK to Canada and the US and the average cost for, say, an 1845 Pattern is £40. Parcelforce have been excellent for me and I describe the item accurately without problem. I usually use the normal Parcelforce website BUT if you book international carriages through the Parcel2Go website it often works out to be considerably cheaper - I hope that helps!

[Philip]

I've sent many swords from the UK to Canada and the US and the average cost for, say, an 1845 Pattern is £40. Parcelforce have been excellent for me and I describe the item accurately without problem.

Doesn't ParcelForce have a length limit of 36 inches or 100 cm as the case may be? When I ship via post from the US to the UK, I'm subject to a 36-inch limit for International Priority Express which is a service on a comparable level to your PF. Anything longer has to go via the non-express service which takes a few days longer.

[MForde]

Doesn't ParcelForce have a length limit of 36 inches or 100 cm as the case may be? When I ship via post from the US to the UK, I'm subject to a 36-inch limit for International Priority Express which is a service on a comparable level to your PF. Anything longer has to go via the non-express service which takes a few days longer.

Hi Philip, I'm not sure but it's certainly possible. I generally use the same cardboard box to ship swords and it's 125cm long.

[kahnjar1]

Further to #25 above regarding the sword sent to New Zealand by DHL Deutschepost, I should perhaps have added that the cost was 47Euro and the parcel weighed 1.78kg. Length was 1m. For the size and distance I would have thought that this cost was very reasonable. It would appear that from the comments posted, that the major part of shipping cost could well be the charge for packing etc.
Stu

[Philip]

DHL just delivered an Indian dagger sent by a customer in Europe for blade polish. Described "Art metalwork, jammadar kattari, Indian >100 years old". Package not opened en route, no stickers or tape from CITES inspection. Took less than a week including a Sat./Sun. to get here.

My colleague in the Netherlands still uses UPS as well as Netherlands Post to send swords to the US. So that leaves FedEx as the absolute no-go for all weapons, antique or otherwise, between countries. (TNT has been bought out by them so it doesn't operate on its own anymore.)

[silberschatzimsee]

i received a dagger by fedex today :shrug: :confused:

but i had to wait for 4 weeks so i also cant recommend them.

[kai]

Hello Udo,

i had to wait for 4 weeks so i also cant recommend them.
I’m not sure who you mean by “them” - if the Italian government decides to actually enforce standards on culturally important artifacts that are pretty much agreed on globally, I suppose we can’t really blame the government much less any company operating there.

As collectors we also have to bear with idiosyncratic national regulations that surpass global standards like Italy on “weapons” even if antique/obsolete, the US and UK on antique ivory, and the list goes on and on...

BTW, Czerny’s mentions the imposed regulatory processes and timeframe on the website if I remember correctly.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

As you pass the Italian and Greek customs inside the EU there should be no control of the goods in your car. They may control just yourself that's all.
P.S.: Small inoffensive pocket knives get regularly confiscated by the Italian customs (even when exciting Italy!) - better not try the ferries from IT to GR...

[silberschatzimsee]

My entry has nothing to do with italy or czernys :p

I was talking about fedex being the worst shipping experience.

[kai]

Thanks for your explanation! From the other comments in this thread it seems that you got really lucky to receive it at all and the parcel not getting returned to the sender... :rolleyes:

[Jean]

Just my personal experience with Czerny's and shipping from Italy to France:
I am regularly buying krisses and kris hilts from them, their shipping service is slow but it is partly justified because they have to go through the very bureaucratic Italian Customs regulations (export permit).
Their shipping rates are quite high but no exorbitant (45 USD for shipping a balinese kris for instance, I always insist to get the best rate) and up to now I received the items safely.
The direct consequence of the shipping problems to some destinations is that there are very few bidders as compared to other international auction houses and you can achieve excellent deals in some cases.
Regards

[Battara]

Ok so try this out: got a beja dagger at auction from Italy and paid around $240 in shipping alone! We'll see how it turns out when it comes in. :rolleyes:

[Philip]

Ok so try this out: got a beja dagger at auction from Italy and paid around $240 in shipping alone! We'll see how it turns out when it comes in. :rolleyes:
How much does a beja dagger weigh? I just got a sizeable book from the big auction house in Italy, package weight a little over 2 lb, was charged 80 euro for FedEx international economy. Got It within 2 weeks of wiring the payment and it would probably have been faster if FedEx didn’t call me from their hub in TN asking me to translate the title for them and tell them what it was about and how old it is. (My replies to them included the jibes “hey don’t youse guys read Italian?” and “whadidya expect, the Gutenberg Bible?” - luckily the rep has a sense of humor)

[Green]

about a month ago i won a bid for a pair of kerisses of not v good quality but one had an ivory handle (which is the reason i bid for). I did not worry about this because ihave received quite a few keris from UK with ivory grip previously. but this time, the auction house declined to post to me. I then requested mailbox etc (which only a few months before sent a keris with ivory handle to me without any problem) but this time they refused. I found another one that is willing to apply for CITES certificate for my item and their initial quote for post + cites certificate process is around 235 pounds. The process is till ongoing and not completed yet. My winning bid was only 60 pounds. In conclusion i am basically screwed.

[Philip]

Ouch! Just curious, did the shipping firm itemize their price quote - CITES certificate fee, packing, shipping, insurance, their markup, etc? Once the paperwork is completed, what carrier will do the transport? ParcelForce, ccommercial courier, etc? I hope that with the certificate it can be delivered to you directly and not involve the services of a customs broker on your end to clear the importation which would result in additional fees.

I’ve had that experience when I bought an antique pistol from a London saleroom last year. Auction houses operate in a legal fishbowl and need to cross all their T’s and play by the rules all the way. My purchase had to go through a licensed freight forwarder ( and yes they had to show diligence re CITES to rule out ivory inlays) and because of the valuation on the invoice I needed a customs broker that cost me another $350 on my end plus the 400 quid that the UK shipper charged. Ridiculous, I thought, because all antiques enter the US duty free and there are no restrictions on flintlocks. But there was no way around this racket so just had to pay up and shuddup. Every country has different rules and though you said the value of your purchase was not that expensive, be sure that you check with your country’s customs office to verify what the formalities are for CITES affected material.

The only point I’m trying to make to all is that in this day and age of myriad rules governing arms and animal species, it helps to be fully cognizant if all the issues and costs connected with getting something from A to B before you bid in an overseas auction.

[MForde]

As a note for members, if anyone wins anything at auction near me (Wokingham, Berkshire, UK) I'd be happy to send it overseas to you. It's a long shot but thought I'd offer!

[Green]

Phillip;

The quotation given was an estimate by them and not itemized. But they did inform that for getting the CITES certificate alone, the cost is 90 pounds. I am waiting for the CITES process to be completed and wait for the actual invoice from them. To be fair, the auction house did offer to resell my won item in their future auction but I decided to apply for CITES certificate and keep my won item.

I am not exactly sure what the custom officers at my end will do, as I no experience receiving shipment with CITES certificate before although I have received numerous ivory hilted items in the past several years without any problem from them.

MForde:

Thank you very much, that is very kind of you to help us with shipment. I'll keep this in mind if I have problems . For sure we'll not request you to ship ivory materials unless we have proper documentation.

[Athanase]

Are there paints easily reversible?
To paint flintlock rifles with ivory inlay decoration or sheaths with some small, ivory-decorated parts?

For handles ivory in revenche I do not see how to hide them discreetly. :shrug:

[vilhelmsson]

Hey guys, Not to gloat (too much), but I just had a box of swords arrive in California from Italy. It shipped FedEx International Economy on Wednesday, 10/9, and was delivered in California on Friday, 10/11, before 10 am.

However, a shipment earlier in the year from the same place with UPS had a 30 day FDA and Fish & Wildlife hold, and nothing biological inside.

So I think luck is a factor.

Also, please don't circumvent CITES. It invalidates provenance and encourages fakes.

[Philip]

However, a shipment earlier in the year from the same place with UPS had a 30 day FDA and Fish & Wildlife hold, and nothing biological inside.

So I think luck is a factor.

Also, please don't circumvent CITES. It invalidates provenance and encourages fakes.

Yep, the feds can't inspect every parcel. But recent experiences show that the gamble isn't worth it. Call me paranoid, but it seems to me that offenders whose shipments get snagged are put on some short of S-list. A couple years ago, a dealer in the UK used to send me items for restoration, and every single shipment of his was received with Fish and Wildlife inspection tape. Fortunately I had informed him in advance of all this that I would not work on any item affected by CITES, permits or no. He must have landed on somebody/s radar screen because several packages in a row, containing all-metal Indian ethnographic weapons, was flagged and checked.

Getting caught trying to circumvent CITES, either on purpose or inadvertently, can have consequences beyond invalidation of provenance. Like confiscation and destruction. In the recent past, the Richard Wagner Jr collection in the US was liquidated, and a noted UK-based auctioneer was selected to handle disposal of this estate. The CITES-affected pieces were to be sold out of their San Francisco saleroom, the rest sent to London. About a dozen ivory hilted daggers were mistakenly shipped in the group destined for the UK. These were seized, the handles removed and destroyed, and the blades returned to the auctioneers for sale.

[Philip]

Are there paints easily reversible?
To paint flintlock rifles with ivory inlay decoration or sheaths with some small, ivory-decorated parts?

For handles ivory in revenche I do not see how to hide them discreetly. :shrug:

Back in the 1990s, when CITES enforcement was not what it is now, some dealer colleagues from the UK used to come to US antique arms fairs to buy. As a favor I would handle shipping for them, and on ivory hilts we agreed on the use of automotive spray enamel in gloss or matte black, applied without a primer. It masked the color perfectly and was safely removable with mineral spirits --without a primer it did not adhere all that well, which of course made it vulnerable to a customs inspector with sharp fingernails. But the ruse worked.

I wouldn't have tried it on any surface that included wood, however. And now I wouldn't do it at all, because enforcement is tighter and the penalty, besides a fine, includes confiscation and destruction of the item (see the post I wrote above for a nasty example). The last time I did this was for an English gent who bought a nice ivory horse head shamshir at auction in the US and the seller refused to ship overseas. The blade was a piece of crap so my customer just said to yank and toss it, the hilt was what he was after. I stress the word LAST, I no longer accept any items for restoration that contain any CITES-affected material, not just ivory. It's just not worth it.

Please, fellas -- don't cheat. And keep up on the CITES regs, as re the scope of species involved. It isn't about just ivory, tortoise, rhino and beagle feathers anymore. A friend just reported that a shipment of Oriental weapons sent to him from overseas had one item yanked -- a sword with ray skin covered handle. The inspector demanded that he prove that the species of ray fish that the hilt was covered with was not one of the endangered ones! And keeping in mind that most Japanese swords have ray skin of one species or another under the silk wrapping, you can see where this could possibly lead. And it wasn't too long ago that the Gibson guitar factory was shut down for awhile until the feds verified the source of one lot of African ebony that luthiers use for fingerboards on the necks of instruments.

[DaveF]

....and another "scam" is the Ebay Global Shipping scheme. USPS/Royal Mail/Parcelforce is about half the cost and twice as quick in my experience. I will not bid on sellers who insist on using the Ebay Global Shipping.

As far as shipping from Italy is concerned I once lost an item which was "tracked" all the way from the seller to the Italian Customs clearance and then......NOTHING. Thru the "back door" I found that the item had in fact been returned to the seller, but he denied that!!! What else can one do but not buy from him again!
Stu

I recently bought a Co Jang from the US on ebay, which was shipped on the expensive eBay global shipping scheme. Before it left the States it was declared "undeliverable" because it was a weapon. I got my money back but it grieves me that it didn't even go back to the seller, eBay saying they'll dispose of it as they see fit. What is the logic of allowing an item to be sold internationally on your website and then refusing to ship it?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Philip, what you write about the Richard Wagner Jr. collection is very interesting. I have a khanjarli with ivory hilt from the collection, and I have often been wondering why some daggers with ivory were sold in the US and others were sent to the UK to be sold. Now I know why.
In an art magazine I saw pictures of the stripped daggers, and it was quite chocking to see the daggers - good that Richard Wagner never knew about it.


To all others, dont fool with the CITES certificate - if it is needed, get it or you can be in big trouble.

[Richard G]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422

Hope this works
Richard

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard, thank you for the link - it is chocking, and it is a chock any collector will not forget easily.
I dont understand how an auctionhouse can send daggers like this, to another country whitout the needed papers, or maybe we dont know the whole history, who knows?
In post #121 it seems as if the daggers were stripped in the UK.



Has anyone asked the MET or one of the big auctionhouses what they would do to avoid daggers to be stripped? If not, it might be time to do so.



To get a CITES certificate, the weapon has to be evaluated by a specialist known to the CITES people, and accepted by them as being an expert.
Maybe the CITES people can give you a list of experts living 'near' to where you live.

The recievers name and address are on the document, and only the reciever must get the parcle - the document is valid for half a year.

[vilhelmsson]

Here's a guide for museums on the care and documentation, including proper shipping practices, of ivory antiquities: http://www.connectingtocollections.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ivory-PowerPoint-Slides.pdf

In my discussions with US Fish & Wildlife, importing pre-Act ivory should go smoothly, but there are a few pitfalls. He said that the most common pitfall is pre-export permit validation. For example, if you're importing ivory from the UK to the US, you must have the UK customs authority validate the permit and sign off on the export. If it arrives in the US with all of the proper documentation, etc., but the permit was not validated, then it will be treated as an unpermitted import.

Sounds like a common sense step, but it is frequently missed.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Vilhelmsson, I find your link interesting, but not very helpful, as what the members need is, a way to find the experts who can descripe the weapon/whatever so that the CITES people can/will accept it - and make the certificate.

[vilhelmsson]

Jens,

The actual guidelines are very non-specific, but that pdf will point you in the right direction. They need a "qualified appraisal." Each country can interpret that differently. There is no centralized list of "qualified appraisers" in the US. And the US government certainly won't publish a list of qualified appraisers.

I would bet like $100 if you call the Alaska US F&W office and ask about ivory importation, they'd transfer you to someone who would give you the names of some good qualified appraisers.

If you are exporting from or importing to the US, here are the guidelines for what a qualified appraisal is:

An appraisal submitted as documentary evidence of an article’s eligibility under the ESA antique exception must meet the following criteria:

* The person executing the appraisal either has earned an appraisal designation from a recognized professional appraiser organization for demonstrated competency in appraising the type of property being appraised or can demonstrate verifiable education and experience in assessing the type of property being appraised.

* The person executing the appraisal is not the importer, exporter, buyer, recipient or seller of the article; does not benefit from the results of the appraisal (other than for the cost of the appraisal); is not a party to any of the transactions associated with the article (including any person acting as an agent for the transaction); is not an employee of any business that is a party to the transaction; and is not related to the person claiming the exception.

* Facts we will examine in determining the reliability of the appraisal:
1. A description of the article in sufficient detail for a person who is not generally familiar with the type of article to determine that the appraisal is about the article in question.

2. The name and address of the qualified appraiser; or if the appraiser is a partner, an employee, or an independent contractor engaged by a person other than the person claiming the exception, the name and address of the partnership or the person who employs or engages the appraiser.

3. The qualifications of the appraiser who signs the appraisal, including the background, experience, education and any membership in professional appraiser associations.

4. The date on which the article was appraised.

5. The scientific method in detail used to determine the age or species.
Descriptive information on the article including but not limited to: the size of the article; the medium; the artist or culture; approximate date the article was created; and a professional quality image of the article.

6. A detailed history of the article including proof of authenticity.
The facts on which the appraisal was based including analyses of similar works by the artist on or around the creation date.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the explanation Vilhelmsson.
It all sounds very complicated, and I do see the problem.
I guess I was lucky to get a certificate, when my dagger from the Wagner collection was transported from the UK to where I live.

[Dmitry]

One London-based auction house now states in plain English in their descriptions of every ivory-containing lot that they will not accept bids from US-based buyers due to the current American regulations.
I'm glad the world elephant population is breathing in unison'ed relief knowing that.

[Kurt]

One London-based auction house now states in plain English in their descriptions of every ivory-containing lot that they will not accept bids from US-based buyers due to the current American regulations.
I'm glad the world elephant population is breathing in unison'ed relief knowing that.

Hi Dimitry,
good answer, I absolutely agree.
Kurt

[Philip]

Oh, those ellyfunts should be trumpeting for joy!

[gp]

shipping nowadays is always a most interesting journey..
ex the good ol' U S of A :

DHL took me 4 days to NL ( yep ...I am a Cloggy:)) for $140 USD for a small Ottoman antique 19th C dagger ( and no import duties charged....:D)
value from auction was $100.. actual or real value should be $ 250-300

USPS with their local partner Post.NL again value $100 for a Bosnian dagger from 1860, actual value around 400 - 450, shipping $ 80 .... 4 monnths....with Euro 35 import duties, delivering it together wit a small yacht window ( whose owner was also waiting for 3=4 months on it from a complete different part of Holland) ....

Austrian Post uses Eurodis as intermediate to the Dutch Post.NL and ships for € 18 : 9 times all OK, one time my dagger was lost and on its way back to sender due to incorrect address. The sender made no mistake but all the intermediates put their labels over the original address. Even after contacting all callcenters of 3 involved companies it took 3 months to get my package found an delivered. Terrible... although all other 9 Austrian shipments went OK.

My recent experience :

a book on cold weapons from Bosnia: purchase price 60, DHL ( being the only option) 30....upon arrival ( 3 days !!! Very fast indeed, the same it took me by motorbike or train to Sarajevo...) I had to pay 17 import duties and....18 handling costs....the last 2 amounts did feel like a ripp off

a klewang ( purchase value $ 75, actual 150)from the US again: $ 35 by USPS: 2 weeks and no import duties....

you tell me ... what's going on?

Sometimes I think they are using the donkey express or the Kon-Tiki whilst other times they are performing excellently.

Nevertheless the scare me sh-beep-tless when it takes more than 1 month

As for description of auction houses: they are not sure anymore, so also bone or horn are lots of times described as Citesitems, whilst they come / are made from local oxes in the Balkans...and the only endangered specie is the collector who is been taken for a ride.... sadly. Thumbs up nevertheless yeh all

[Dmitry]

An interesting tidbit on the BBC ANTIQUES ROADSHOW FAQ page:

Can I bring ivory to Antiques Roadshow?
At the end of 2018, the UK government’s Ivory Bill gained Royal Assent to become law.

Further information on the detail and scope of the legislation can be found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ivory-bill-2018

Please note that Antiques Roadshow no longer values items of antique elephant ivory.

However, our experts may be able to examine your items and offer guidance about the new legislation.


That takes care of the broad swath of world antiques, from the Viking period chess figures, to middle ages decorative objects, to 19th century musical instruments, to the 20th century jewelry.

[Rick]

I wonder how they feel about fossil ivorys, elephant and mammoth? Many knifemakers in the US use this and fossil walrus, Steller's Sea Cow ribs etc. for knife scales.

I hate it when they make these one-size-fits-all laws.

[Tim Simmons]

Hippo ivory is still legal? Just as nice?

[Tim Simmons]

Seems hippo is banned too. I can understand the desire to break the market but how many countries will still be a back door market so the killing will still go on.

[Philip]

, Steller's Sea Cow ribs



Stellar sea cow? Haven’t heard about that before. Do those ribs taste good off the BBQ grill too? I love the dual-use concept.

[Rick]

You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old.
The fossilized material is is gathered by the indigenous peoples of the Bering Sea area along with fossilized Walrus and is used for carvings, knife scales etc.

This bear was carved from a fossilized Walrus jaw.

[Philip]

[QUOTE=Rick;262771]You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old.
The /QUOTE]

I once read somewhere that Russian paleontologists once dig up a mammoth from the permafrost and there was still that ol’ellyfunt meat still clinging to some bones. They made a broth out of some of the tissue. Don’t recall seeing their reaction to the flavor, would have been interesting if they could salvage enough meat to make at least a couple sibirsky pel’menyi to cook in the soup. Leftovers that old? Compared to some of the food I had during a trip to Gorbyland in 1986 , how bad could that be?