Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

[Khelben]

Hi! New to the forum. The first time I tried to post it apparently all of my attachments failed to upload (Too Big) and I didn't notice. I think I am still in a "moderators must approve your threads" phase, and so I hope they will just delete that one. I have thus resized the images to fit the forum's limitations, and this time around it accepted them.

So, I received this Yataghan when my dad died, along with several other swords and Bayonets. He thought it was a Turkish Yataghan, but I suspect that was largely more of a "Turks had Yataghans" thing, because upon looking for something comparable, mine is quite different, particularly in the hilt.

I'm looking for some help identifying what the source of this sword could be, with it's more westernized looking hilt.

Is it a Turkish export to be sold to Europeans? Has someone replaced the original hilt with a new one? What am I looking at here? Have any of you guys seen one like this before?

[TVV]

To me, based on the blade and bolster, this looks like a Greek yataghan that was rehilted at some point, with the hilt being inspired by bayonet brass hilts such as those on the Chassepot bayonet.

Regards,
Teodor

[Khelben]

Thanks. That's very helpful.

Is there a database I could look through to identify the maker's mark, that you know of, or are there not good records for that sort of thing?

[Kubur]

To me, based on the blade and bolster, this looks like a Greek yataghan that was rehilted at some point, with the hilt being inspired by bayonet brass hilts such as those on the Chassepot bayonet.

Regards,
Teodor

I disagree with Teodor, I don't think that each time we have a yataghan with silver niello work it has to be Greek. I could have been done in any place from Turkey to Bosnia.

what is very intriguing are the 4 dots, are they rivets? Can you do more photos and close-ups?
It looks like a replacement hilt, but the tang was reworked too.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-region/middle-east/turkey-and-ottoman/yataghan-turkey.html where another circular mark can be viewed on a Yatagan. The example at web is Ottoman.

[TVV]

Anything is possible, and there was a lot of movement of blades and even craftsmen within the Ottoman Empire. However, decorative techniques and motives were based on regional preference, and the shape and decoration of the bolster is associated with Greece. The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece. Where it was used and subsequently rehilted is hard to tell, at least for me, but at least we can make an educated guess on where it was originally produced.

Teodor

[OsobistGB]

I agree with Theodor on 100%.The style of work is Greek :)

[mariusgmioc]

In my novice opinion this is neither Greek, nor Turkish but most likely Balkan yatghan.
The blade might be Turkish but then re-hilted in the Balkans.

[Kubur]

The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece. Where it was used and subsequently rehilted is hard to tell, at least for me, but at least we can make an educated guess on where it was originally produced.
Teodor

MMMMm i would like to believe you but i don't know where you got your information's. Please look at a reference book like Arms of Greece and you will see that it's not true. Books are always the answer. If someone can translate Russian we will see, maybe Teodor is right...

Second point for Kelhben here is a list of stamps similars to yours.

Kubur

[Kubur]

Maybe this one

[ariel]

I also agree with Teodor: rehilted Cretan yataghan.
As to attributing it to the Ottoman Empire, let’s not forget that in the early 19 century Balkans, Crete, Greece were all parts of it.

[TVV]

MMMMm i would like to believe you but i don't know where you got your information's. Please look at a reference book like Arms of Greece and you will see that it's not true. Books are always the answer. If someone can translate Russian we will see, maybe Teodor is right...

Second point for Kelhben here is a list of stamps similars to yours.

Kubur

Astvatsaturian attributes these to Eastern Anatolia, based on the niello and similarities to niello decoration on arms from Georgia. It is a book full of great pictures, but the conclusions are based on the author's guesses, which she admits herself in the book. Not being able to read Russian does not really detract much, to be honest.

In Elgood's book I do not recall yataghans with this shape to the bolster as attributed to areas outside of Greece, and there are plenty of examples in the chapter dedicated to arms associated with the Greek War of Independence. But it would be a good idea for me to go through the book again.

Teo

[TVV]

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

[ariel]

Astvatsaturian’s book is based exclusively on the materials from the State Historical Museum ( Kremlin) and, in a smaller part, from St. Petersburg collection ( Hermitage? I am too lazy to check her book). She tried to develop systematic classification of yataghan origins based on decorative elements. But the final product reminded the tongue-in cheek passage from the Borges’ scheme allegedly taken from an ancient Chinese manuscript about classification of animals: “ those belonging to the Emperor, suckling pigs, frenzied, sirens, fabulous , etc...”
Really good specialists lived in Istanbul’s Topkapi and Askeri Muze, and in Yugoslavia. But she could not go there: Turkey was a NATO country and Yugoslavian Tito professed independent view of socialism, being a traitor of Lenin-Stalin’s dogma. Thus, for example, anything with niello was viewed by her as coming from Eastern Anatolia due to her belief that Soviet Caucasus was the cradle of niello-ed silver ( like the current example). Maria Shercer and Dora
Boscovich could have educated her , but... alas, trip to Tito’s lair of anti-Soviet ideology was out of the question.


On top of that, Astvatsaturian did not know foreign languages and her transliteration of foreign names of weapons was pathetic in its ignorance. There were independent sabers klych and klykh, mech and megg etc. She was a talented , productive and dedicated historian of weapons but she had a misfortune of living and working in a wrong country. Her book about more familiar subject, i. e. Caucasian weapons, is a masterpiece however.

In her defense, even contemporary Turkish books, such as Yasar’s “ Yataghans” are just as bad: every example there is labeled as just “Ottoman” :-)

[Kubur]

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

Precisely there is nothing in this chapter to support your assumption on the blade or even the bolster...
I'm ready to be convinced and to change my mind just give me something solid.

[mariusgmioc]

Don't we have any Turkish forum members with access to Turkish bibliography? :shrug:

I wonder what happened to Zifir?! :shrug:

[TVV]

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

[ariel]

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

[mariusgmioc]

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

Please note that Elgood says "probably"...

Moreover, as I said after reading his book (I think there is a thread with comments on his book) on the arms of Greece, most if not all the attributions of origin in his book are purely anecdotal. He does not explain why a certain piece may be from one place and not from another and is quite silent about the features that characterise each area.

So I cannot consider Elgood's book as a reference! :cool:

However, movement of wares and skills was so wide in the Ottomoan empire that in most cases it will be impossibe to establish with a reasonable level of certainty the origin of some pieces.

Dubito ergo cogito...
:shrug:

[ariel]

Teodor,
Precisely.
The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

[Kubur]

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

[Kubur]

Please note that Elgood says "probably"...

Moreover, as I said after reading his book (I think there is a thread with comments on his book) on the arms of Greece, most if not all the attributions of origin in his book are purely anecdotal. He does not explain why a certain piece may be from one place and not from another and is quite silent about the features that characterise each area.

So I cannot consider Elgood's book as a reference! :cool:

However, movement of wares and skills was so wide in the Ottomoan empire that in most cases it will be impossibe to establish with a reasonable level of certainty the origin of some pieces.

Dubito ergo cogito...
:shrug:

"probably" because this man is clever and modest not like us... the forum members....

[Kubur]

My last word
as Ariel wrote and as we all know
Greece was part of the Balkans
so expect Epirus work that is very easy to distinguish
its extremely difficult to say if a yataghan is Greek or Bosnian or Albanian...
its the reason why Elgood wrote probably
and the reason why i said toTeodor to be more cautious too...

[TVV]

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

[Kubur]

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

It's the opposite and it's funny that that you turn my question to you into a question to me.

However, decorative techniques and motives were based on regional preference, and the shape and decoration of the bolster is associated with Greece. The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece.
Teodor

I used Elgood to demonstrate that your attribution was wrong and i asked you to provide evidence.
You didn't provide any evidences and worst you use the reference that I produced as an evidence and you try to put the ball on my side. I even shouldn't waste my time to write... You are not the first forum member to do that. This is not serious and childish. End of.

[TVV]

Oh boy, that escalated quickly. Before the moderators act, I will make one more attempt to clarify my participation and position in this thread - it was in response to Khleben, not personally to you, Kubur. I actually value and respect your opinion, Kubur, I really do, even if we disagree on something.

Back to my response in post 2 - I answered Khleben's question based on my knowledge. It is always good to questions answers to make sure whether correct or not, this is what the forum is for and I do not mid that a bit. So I provided a copy of a relevant figure from Elgood's book, which is the only book that actually makes an attempt to attribute yataghans geographically based on the author's study of museum collections in Greece and the Western Balkans.

At this point, it is really up to everyone reading the thread to make their own conclusions based on the information presented here - and hopefully do so without letting their emotions get the better of them.

[OsobistGB]

It is very difficult to tell where the yatagan was produced.Therefore we take into account the style of workmanship.Without any hypothesis and fantasy ... the style of work is Greek!Here's an example some of my Ελληνική λεπίδες :D

[Khelben]

Sorry for the late reply. Been a hectic and stressful week, with a bunch of houseguests, and a dead pet.

Here are some additional photos people requested, including closeups of the brass rivets in the hilt, and another closeup of the maker's mark. I'll take a look at the maker's mark catalogue that was linked now to see if I can place it.

[sfenoid13]

It is not of course a definite answer but when you consider all the examples coming from Greek region of the Ottoman Empire this Yatagan is indeed Greek in origin. Of course the maker and owner was probably Ottoman Turkish.
The handle on the other hand is a obviously a more recent replacement to the lost silver niello handle. There is no discussion there. And the ha Dule is rather made just for practical purposes and looks hideous in my opinion:) but they probably just wanted to save the nice blade and keep using it. Or someone made ten handle so they can sell the blade because without a handle it’s usually worthless.
I am also surprised how all the respected and valued veteran members here easily get mad and argue for such a petty topic :) these swords were sold and traveled across continents along with genre owners initially and later with trades and auctions. I bought a Laz Yatagan from Australia imagine that :)))

[sfenoid13]

By the way I have a very similar Yatagan which came from Serbia but it never crossed my mind to doubt that it wasn’t Greek origin. Serbian Yatahans along with Bulgarians are almost all walrus or horn handle.

[Kubur]

I am also surprised how all the respected and valued veteran members here easily get mad and argue for such a petty topic :)

If I'm in the lot, I'm definitively flattered!

I wasn't mad but let's say more disapointed because "the other member" is precisely a respected and valued veteran member...

this Yatagan is indeed Greek in origin. Of course the maker and owner was probably Ottoman Turkish.

Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
;)

[sfenoid13]

Perfect demonstration that this Greek origin is a nonsense.
Where is the Greek if the maker is Ottoman Turkish and the user / owner Ottoman Tukish??
;)[/QUOTE]
The Greek is in region where this Ottoman Turkish owned and used his Yataghan. I am from Bulgaria, so is many generations of family, however I am not Bulgarian but rather Turkish. One of the many hundreds of thousand of Turks who were left behind when Ottoman Empire lost Bulgaria. Same happened with Greece. Bulgaria have tons of Yataghans , I have yet to see one Owens by a Slavic name, they are all inscribed to be owned by Turkish names, so are the makers. Same is true for “most” Greek yatagans too.

[kwiatek]

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

[Kubur]

This probably comes too late, but all the marks posted here say “Mustafa”

Very nice Greek name...
:)

[ariel]

Ottoman Yataghans were assembled from mass-produced blades coming largely from Anatolia and Balkans ( Bosnia, mainly). Wherever they landed, their further fate was to fall into the hands of a local master who added the rest according to his local customs, tastes and traditions. This step defined the final product. That was the similar to the fate of other trade blades, such as Genoese, Styrian or generic Indian. Depending on the point of their final destination, they could be converted into Moroccan nimchas, Caucasian shashkas, Afghani pulwars, Mughals, Rajputs etc.


What is still original here is the blade ( generic “ Ottoman”) but a typical Greek/ Cretan crenellated niello silver tunkou/ Habaki- like appliqué at the root of the blade. That is all we have and all we can use in determining the ethnic origin of the final product.


How do we interpret it depends on our discretion. We can take the “path of the least resistance” that was used by Gozde Yasar, for whom everything yataghanish was “Ottoman, period”, or try and discern local decorative peculiarities. The latter would point toward Crete.

Finally, we are dealing not with certainties, but with probabilities. In a humongous and multiethnic Ottoman Empire nothing prevented a master of one ethnicity from using decorative technique of other people. That was a “ dime a dozen” approach in Imperial Russia with its multiethnic workshops geographically located in Tiflis and Vladikavkaz and spitting out thousands of “Caucasian” shashkas and kindjals of whatever ethnic pattern sold better at that moment or even creation of “Caucasian” - looking examples in St. Peterburg or Ukraine.

Perhaps the most accurate definition of that yataghan would be “ Ottoman in a Cretan style”.

[TVV]

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

[Kubur]

If we classify swords and daggers according to the blades, then all the swords with triple fullered Solingen 19th century blades from the Sahel are German. Obviously, not a very good approach, and as has been discussed here the mounts are generally a much better indicator on where a weapon was used.

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...
:)

[Kubur]

I totaly agree with you
200%
The problem is that for you silver + niello = Greek
when in fact it is Turkish Ottoman
But i won't try to change your mind...
:)

To be really honest with you if i refer to the yataghan posted at the very begining, i have to admit that it could be Greek also because very little survived from the original hilt... I still believe that some forum members have some problem to identify Turkish weapons, see post
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24813

[ariel]

Well, if you think that all things Ottoman are Turkish, that would greatly simplify your provenancing :-)

[gp]

Very nice Greek name...
:)

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.

Didn't that happen as well when Celts, Anglosaxons, Germanic, Baltic and Scandinavion regions and peoples were converted as well...?

So from a geographic point of view the name discussed might indeed be from an inhabitant of Greece.
Let's not forget after the Balkan Wars of 1911-1913 a lot of resettlement took place in quite some countries in South East Europe and with this quite some names which were present for four to six centuries.

Quite some edged weapons from Bosnia have the name Hassan on it, be it either the owner or maker's name....

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

[kwiatek]

The maker's name in the mark is 'Mustafa'

[gp]

Some additional reading :

http://www.muzej-senj.hr/web/media/KATALOG-ZOVO-GMS-web.pdf

http://www.muzej.mod.gov.rs/en/museum-activity/collections/collection-of-hadnicraft-weapons-from-balkan#.XsAnQMDgo2x

Some more visualisations (13 pictures actually from last year's exhibition) by the Bosnian institute in Sarajevo BiH :
https://www.klix.ba/magazin/kultura/rijetki-primjerci-oruzja-iz-kolekcije-bosnjackog-instituta-na-izlozbi/180418111
Click on the foto to get access to all 13 pics

and a few from Livo: http://www.fmgg-livno.com/postavi/zbirka-oruzja-i-vojne-opreme/

By the way... Sarajevo or Sarajewo or also sometimes written in older books as Serajewo: the name originates form 2 Turkish words: Saray Bosna, meaning castle or fortress at (the river) Bosna.

Saray (Arabic: السراي‎; Turkish: sarayı, seray), with the variant saraya or seraya (السرايا), is a castle, palace or government building which was considered to have particular administrative importance in various parts of the former Ottoman Empire. Seray may also be spelt serail in English, via French influence, in which case the L is (in principle) silent. But has nothing to do with Seraglio.

Think also of Galatasaray, a most famous sportclub in Istambul,which name also derives from its ancient origin as a Celtic Castle!
Now one thinks basketketball and football ( or soccer for our American friends) but its meaning was simply Fortress of the Galats , where the Galats are Celts ! And later the neighbourhoodtook over this name...

FYI: As the Celtic tribes first went South from Poland in the past ( must have been around a couple of centuries BC) , they split up in West Europe ( NL- Belgium) into 3 directions:
West to England and later Wales and Eire.
South to Spain and North Africa (Morocco)
East along the Danube ( coins struck 200 B.C near Belgrade Serbia) to Turkey.
But that is altogether another story.

3 pictures / drawings are by Th. Valerio in "souvenirs d'un voyage chez les Slaves du Sud “ from 1868 by Georges Perrot.
the bearded gent is by unknown in an article "a travers la Bosnie-Herzegovine" dated 1896 by Guillaume Capus and the 5th “ Turkish warrior and Montenegrin” from 1904 Deutsche Alpenzeitung "Wanderungen durch Bosnien, die Hercegowina, Montenegro und Dalmatien."

[Kubur]

Saray (Arabic: السراي‎; Turkish: sarayı, seray), with the variant saraya or seraya (السرايا), is a castle, palace or government building which was considered to have particular administrative importance

Like topkapi saray

:)

[Kubur]

well quite some people in the Balkans during the Ottoman times converted to the new religion and hence took over the names accordingly.



Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

[TVV]

Hi
The problem was not about the blade origin or the blade maker but about the silver niello fittings that some members attribute to Greeks without any proof. And even maybe to Christian orthodox Greeks! Glups...
Of course we all know that Balkans were Ottoman provinces and partly Muslim.
We need more forum members from Turkey to balance a bit the knowledge from the Balkans to Turkey... And never forget that the Balkans were amongst the first provinces of the Ottoman empire so Greek means nothing before the Greek uprising...

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

[Kubur]

Maybe you need a Turkish forum, where the other members will agree with labeling everything from the Atlantic to the Pacific as Ottoman.

This is the problem Ottoman is not Turkish;
and Turkish is not Ottoman, it's more complicated...
If the Balkans are from the Atlantic to the Pacific , then you are perfectly right.
:)
Forget about the Greeks: if you talk about an "epirus style" for some daggers, pistols and swords then I'll agree.
But again it will depend of what you put under this tag.
:shrug:

[ariel]

By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space.

The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s).

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions.
First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

[Kubur]

First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

I cannot agree more.
Elgood's book revealed the central role of the Balkans in Ottoman weapon's production. Then we need a map: if you look at this map you will see that the Balkans were amongst the oldest parts of the Ottoman empire. What does it mean? Just that Balkans were Ottomans. The problem with Elgood's book is the title "Arms of Greece" and then many forum members see Greek weapons everywhere whereas in fact these weapons were produced by Albanians, Bosnian, Turkish...

[gp]

By the way, in Russian, where a good chunk of its vocabulary is of Turkish ( not necessarily Ottoman, but much earlier, back to the Mongolian invasion) the word Sarai ( Сарай) designates not a castle but just a shed, like garden shed. Also, in a slightly modified meaning , “Sarai” is an unkempt, dirty and disorganized living space.

The “Ottoman” origin of all Yataghans in Russian literature was due to the inability of Soviet weapon historians ( such as Astvatsaturian) to visit foreign museums and to talk to foreign colleagues, especially in Yugoslavia: Tito was regarded as a traitor to the great Lenin-Stalin orthodoxy. Greece, after suppression of the communist putsch, was also out of bounds. And, since Bulgaria was “liberated” from the Ottomans by the Russian armies in the 19 century and every “non- Slavic” feature was regarded as Turkish. Thus, Astvatsaturian’s attribution of Ottoman weapons was grossly misinformed and fallacious. Not her fault: the realities of the closed and politicized nature of Communist regime(s).

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.

Works of Marija Sercer from Zagreb were largely unknown and were not even cited in the above books. Only from a recent book by Dora Boskovic did we learn about Sercer’s major contributions.
First time I heard of Bulgarian weapon centers was from the Daskalov’s book.
And, finally, the role of Balkan centers was brought to the full view by Elgood.
All of them were published and widely available only after collapse of the Soviet Union and redrawing of the maps.

Sadly, politics and nationalism play major and destructive role in historical studies.

Correction; Josip Broz and Djilas were close allies of Djugasjvilli ...only later a shift took place, just before the death of the latter :
https://yuhistorija.com/int_relations_txt01c1.html

As for literature concerning the yataghan : this is all in the eye of the beholder.
After Austria’s or better the Habsburg occupation of Bosnia and Hercegowina in 1878, quite some and very valid information can be found (if one masters German) in many publications of “ Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina “ (= scientific notices ) published in Vienna between 1892/3 and 1916.

Also a lot of visitors to the Balkans between 1600 and 1900 did write about their travels with sometimes excellent descriptions and drawings of knives, kamas, bicaqs, yataghans.
And due to absence of copyright, legal downloads are available for free , also cheap reprints 22-30 Euro can be bought and the original books for “ the yataghan collector” can be found for a reasonable price .

[TVV]

Relatively recent Turkish books, such as the one by Gozde Yasar, perpetuate this narrow view: each and every yataghan there is labeled as Ottoman, with the unspoken implication of being Turkish. No attempt was made to pinpoint decorative features specific to their non-Anatolian origin.


If we adopt Yasar's attribution logic, then Sami knives and kindjals made in Tbilisi in the 19th century are both Russian (or Romanov, if you wish), as those were all made in the Russian Empire. It is a logic that ignores the multi-ethnic nature and regional material culture variations of large empires.

[gp]

some more pics from the book "Starinsko Oruzje"( = old weapons) by Vejsil Curcic , Sarajevo 1926 and one from "la Bosnie l"Herzegovine" by plural writers under supervision of Louis Olivier, Paris 1901.

[gp]

and 3 scans from the occupation war in 1878

[gp]

from Bosnia itself a little about the yataghan:

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muzejv2/predmeti/jatagan1/jatagan_eng/about.htm

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/btp/content/muzejv2/predmeti/jatagan/jatagan_eng/about.htm

[ariel]

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.

As to your statement that Soviet-Yugoslav relations were rosy till the death of Stalin, please re-read your reference: already in 1948 USSR withdrew all her military and civilian advisers from Yugoslavia and in 1949 the antagonism between the two was already fully apparent. Stalin died in 1953.
But be it as it may, Astvatsaturian started her career in the early 50's, and by that time both Yugoslavia and Albania were de facto "traitors " of the Soviet ideology. Contacts with foreign countries were always very limited and difficult for Soviet citizens and collaborations with the " enemies" was practically unheard of. Soviet researchers worked in complete isolation. Add to that their almost universal inability to read and understand foreign languages together with very controlled and limited access to foreign publications even from major libraries, and the picture becomes even more grim.

[ariel]

If we adopt Yasar's attribution logic, then Sami knives and kindjals made in Tbilisi in the 19th century are both Russian (or Romanov, if you wish), as those were all made in the Russian Empire. It is a logic that ignores the multi-ethnic nature and regional material culture variations of large empires.

Fully agree.

[gp]

Thanks, I was unaware of those publications.
However, none of them have been cited by Astvatsaturian or Yasar either.



You're welcome! Actually this tells more about Astvatsaturian or Yasar...
Although language might also be one botttleneck or showstopper.

But a lot of info (of which many are unaware about untill ones visits the places) can be found locally in Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia, Romania and Serbia .


And by the way.... Greek or not to be ( Greek) ?

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
- According to Dictionnaire des Antiquités Grecques et Romaines the name Sica comes from Proto-Indo-European root sek-, meaning "to cut", "to section", however De Vaan declares any connection to Proto-Indo-European *sek- to be formally impossible.

source: Albanian Archaeology 10 August 2019 ·

[Kubur]

They all are copies from....

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺

Etymology: Possibly from Proto-Albanian *tsikā (whence Albanian thikë, "dagger, knife"), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.
·

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...
:)
I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

[gp]

You are a bit too much Albanian centered...
:)
I will stay with the Greek kopis, same kind of weapon, same period 5 -4 BC, same area...

birds of a feather....

but as the Cellts passed through along the Danube...

might the origin not be a Celtic faceta...? :) :) :)

[gp]

jokes aside...

a legal download althoug I am aware that not everybody can read (Serbian) cyrillic, but worthwile nevertheless and recommendable;

"cold weapons of the Ottoman Turcish era: 15-19th century"

https://dlscrib.com/queue/hladno-oruzje-iz-osmansko-turskog-perioda-15-19-vijek-libre_5890c4926454a7ca1bb1e8d3_pdf?queue_id=598084 4fdc0d60b4272bb181

another legal download in English from an earlier era :

https://www.academia.edu/496513/Mediaeval_Swords_from_Southeastern_Europe._Materia l_from_12th_to_15th_Century_2007_by_Marko_Aleksi%C 4%87



and some nice pics of an exhibition in Sarajevo:
http://www.novigradsarajevo.ba/news/default/izlozba-iz-zbirke-muzeja-sarajeva-jatagani-otvorena-u-galeriji-opcine-novi-grad-1511522290?page=4

[TVV]

the ILLYRIAN SIKA ☺☼☺



You call it Illyrian, I call it Thracian, someone in Romania would probably call it Dacian...

[gp]

You call it Illyrian, I call it Thracian, someone in Romania would probably call it Dacian...

ofcourse and the interaction between neighbours goes without saying.
No offence intended at all.
It is most interesting for me to see these weapons in their earliest phase!
... and from plural regions.

A few more pics on the subject from my book collection:

"Erinnerung an Sarajevo " J. Studnicka & Co., First Edition. Unbound. N.d. (before 1918). Large oblong octavo (19 x 26 cm). Complete suite of 12 color plates of scenes and costumes. Original cloth portfolio.
FYI: J. Studnicka & Co. in Sarajevo is already mentioned in 1898. And the portfolio can be dated before 1918 owing to the publisher's address affixed to the inside and on top of the front cover which reads "Buchhandlung J. Studnicka & Co. Sarajevo - Bosnien" -- no doubt this portfolio was intended for the tourist trade and provides a romantic view of this beautiful city .
Remember "tourist trade" also in relation with the white horn bichaqs for officers of the Bosniaken Regiments after 1882...
Enclosed 2 relevant pics with a detail pic of the weapons

[gp]

a little more on the history as I learned from reading plural historical publications on Bosnia with regards to Jatagans ( i.e. Yataghans), Bicaks ( Bichaqs) or Cakija ( knives and short for bicak), kama, noz as they were called in Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Southern Dalmatia ( Dubrovnik/Ragusa and the Bay of Kotor /Boka Kotorska) and Makedonia /Macedonia.
It could well be Bulgaria as well but unfortunately my knowledge does not go that far

Nevertheless, back to Bosnia:
Due to the commemoration of one century insurrection in Bosnia & Hercegowina, the historic museum of Zagreb catagorized for the first time all yataghans in their posession in 1975.
1976 in Graz Austria a 2nd exhibition was held.
Of the total of 171 pieces, 119 had a signature / name to it and 79 could be / were dated.
The oldest was from 1774 signature Hajji Ibrahim, the "youngest" / earliest one from 06. 09. 1878.

After Habsburg took over Bosnia and Hercegowina from the Ottoman Empire conform the Berlin Congress ( art. 25 ), occupied ( after fierce resistance and fighting ) and ruled it in 1878:

the use and manufacturing of yataghan ( latest used during the insurrection of 1875/1876) was prohibited (!)

Henceforth strange it got "liberalized" a little and limited to K.u.K.officers and Habsburg dignataries only after 1882

althouigh the root cause is clear & easy : the wild Bosnians were known as fierce fighters, not only by the Ottomans...
Hence the build quite a strong reputation during WWI, especially at the Isonzo front , but that is another story.

Common criterium of this mostly in the European part of the Ottoman Empire till 1878 produced weapon was the at one side sharpened curved blade with curved scabbard. Another feature is a split pommel with more or lesser continuation into an earlike form.
Material used was ivory (very rare) , walrus, horn and wood.
Metal used; brass, copper and silver.
The scabbard made out of wood covered with brass or silver.

Locally the term hancar is also often used for yataghan which still leads / might lead to some confussion

A book on Ottoman military from 1732 where Marsiglia mentions a weapon used by the "Turcs" : «Hangiar», a kind of dagger which young Turcs and Janitsars did wear at their left side in a piece of cloth looped around their body. No mention of the name Yataghan in this book. Mid 18th century yataghans are mentioned in reports from the Asian part of the Ottoman Empire and North Africa.
As for the root of the "ears", the explanation is simple : used as a rest for the musket ( Dolleczek)
It seems there are 2 types of yataghans ( or also as they are called in the Balkan Hancar) conform Holstein (1931) :«Yataghan turc» and «Yataghan des Balkan».
For Croatia and Slavonia it seems a yataghan-like weapon AKA «Handyar» was mentioned in Habsburgian sources ; the armour of 1784 by Oberst J. A. von Brentao-Cimaroli locally recruted 12 companies Freecorps with hancar “ 12 Kompanien starken slawonisch-kroatischen Krenz-Freikorps (zuzüglich 500 Husaren) : «Feuergewehr sammt Bajonnet, ungarischen Säbeln, Pistolen und Handyar».
A local newspaper mentions for a border soldier ( grenzer / granicar) pistols and «Handschar» with ears ( Ohrenknauf ) with curved blade

In the Habsburgian army a Serbian freecorps operated since 1813 armed with handcar ( “ uniformen mit Handschar bewaffnet” ) with "ears"

Another unit was the Dalmation State Guard in 1869 with a "handschar" in black horn.

Eduard Wagner (1966): «Die Bezeichnung Handschar benutzten die Südslawen, gleichermassen auch die Mohammedaner der Balkanhalbinsel und Asiens. Die Bezeichnung Jatagan (Yatagan) war bei den nordafrikanischen Mohammedanern in Marokko, Algerien, Tunesien und Ägypten gebräuchlich».

"The name Handschar was used by the South Slavs, as well as the Mohammedans of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia. The name Jatagan (Yatagan) was used by the North African Mohammedans in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt ».


Enclosed 2 pics from a black one and one of an old warrior.

[gp]

Due to the commemoration of one century insurrection in Bosnia & Hercegowina, the historic museum of Zagreb catagorized for the first time all yataghans in their posession in 1975.
1976 in Graz Austria a 2nd exhibition was held.
Of the total of 171 pieces, 119 had a signature / name to it and 79 could be / were dated.
The oldest was from 1774 signature Hajji Ibrahim, the "youngest" / earliest one from 06. 09. 1878.


literature :
Boskovic, Dora. Zbirka jatagana u Hrvatskom povijesnom muzeju u Zagrebu = The Yatagan Collection of the Croatian History Museum, Zagreb. Katalog muzejskih zbirki XLI. Zagreb : Hrvatski povijesni muzej, 2006

Sercer, Marija. Jatagani u Povijesnom muzeju Hrvatske. Katalog muzejskih zbirki XI. Zagreb : Povijesni muzej Hrvatske, 1975.

Jatagane aus dem Historischen Museum von Kroatien in Zagreb (Agram). Sonderausstellung im Landeszeughaus 9. April - 7. Juni 1976. Graz : Landeszeughaus am Landesmuseum Joanneum, 1976

Enclosed a scan of a postcard during the K.u.K occupation ,
approx around 1885-1905 of a female "brigant"

[gp]

additional information on yataghans, dated October 2012:


"The yataghan falls into the category of large knives, usually presenting a curved blade, made of high quality steel.
This kind of weapon consists of a single-edged blade, necessarily disposed inward.
An important characteristic of the yataghan is represented by the hilt that stands out due to the specific pommels, that spreads at the top into small wings curved inwards, usually known as 'ears'.
The pommels are perfectly shaped to allow the weapon's easy handling, the ears having the role to prevent the hilt slipping out of the hand when used in battle. If necessary, the yataghan's 'ears' might prove themselves useful as bolsters for shooting the longrifle. In time, specialized literature has presented some confusions regarding the name and the shape of the yataghan.

Studying this type of weapon, many authors did not make a clear distinction between yataghans and handjars, often the term 'yataghan' being used erroneously to designate all oriental swords. Regarding the roots of this type of weapon, the yataghan is a sabre of Oriental origin, according to some sources originating from India wherefrom it was expanded through the whole East.
The shape of the yataghans have not changed much in time, the specific characteristics of this kind of weapon contributing mainly in this respect:
the remarkable force to strike and chop.
Due to the weapon's particular shape, the force of impact is concentrated at the tip of the blade.
The yataghan was the perfect choice for a close fight but also during a skirmish. Even when firearms gained supremacy in the battlefield, the yataghan was also kept in the janissary standard harness especially due to its remarkable technical qualities.
As it concerns the color and the material used to craft the pommels, the Serbo-Croatian-Bosnian specialized literature (excepting Constantinople, most of the Balkan yataghans were crafted in the former Yugoslav territory during the XVIII and XIX centuries, the most famous manufactory being at Foča - today in Bosnia and Herzegovina) classifies yataghans as it followes: belosapce (having the pommels made of ivory or of other bones of light color),
crnosapce (having ears made of buffalo black horn or of wood)
and those with metallic hilts, often overlaid with silver.
There are also brass-hilted yataghans.
Regarding the shape of the blades, yataghans can be classified into straight blades and curved blades.

There were many manufactories in the Balkan Peninsula: Travnik, Foča, Sarajevo, Herceg Novi, Kotor, Risan, Užice, Prizren and Skopje.
The yataghans produces in these manufactories were exclusively handicraft products.
The collection of weapons held by The Banat Museum owns 30 yataghans, recorded in the History Department's files. An important particularity of the museum's collection is given by the great number (17 of 30 weapons) of crnosapci yataghans, horn-hilted or dark bone-hilted weapons.
Unlike The Banat Museum collection, the belosapci with ears made of ivory or other types of white bone, prevail in the yataghans collection from Zagreb (The Croatian History Museum).
The Belgrade researchers' explanations regarding the small number of crnosapci yataghans from the Military Museum's collection together with the informations recorded in the 1st file of the Banat Museum's files clarify the existence of a great number of dark/brown and black pommeled yataghans in the Banat Museum's collection.
Given the fact that the crnosapci yataghans were used in fights, they are much more rare, theory that comes to complement the informations supplied by the archives held by the Banat Museum, informations that highlight the fact that the weapons achived during the pre-war period represented spoil of war resulted from the Austro-Hungarian military campaign held during the summer of 1978 to pacify the Bosnian territory. We can also add to the 17 crnosapci yataghans another 9 belosapci yataghans, two metal hilted weapons, one presenting some changes at the hilt (instead of the characteristic pommels the yataghan has a wooden hilt with a rectangular section).
To all these weapons we can also add a yataghan blade whose pommels are missing. Among The Banat Museum's yataghan collection, 20 weapons exhibit ornaments and encrusted inscriptions, two weapons being encrusted with golden thread, the other ones decorated with silver thread. There other weapons show engraved ornaments while the other seven have no decorations on the blades (some of them presenting the armourer's stamp, at most).

The specialized literature highlights the fact that the yataghans with straight blade (pravci) are very rare, this fact being confirmed at Timisoara where we can find only 5 weapons presenting this kind of blade.
Among the ornate yataghans, the researches managed to discover the year of manufacture only in the case of 8 weapons, the oldest yataghan held by The Banat Museum was dated in the year 1204 (according to the Islamic calendar), corresponding the Christian period of 1789-1790, while the most recent weapon dates from the Muslim year of 1280, representing the years of 1863-1864 according to the Gregorian calendar.
Regarding the history of yataghans collection held by the Banat Museum, we also have to consider that the vast majority of weapons comes from the old collection of the museum, especially from the pre-war period.
The 1st file of inventory held by the museum (the inventory of the Museum Society of History and Archeology) includes a series of weapons brought from Bosnia after the military campaign held in the summer of 1878 (spoil of war from Tuzla, Travnik etc).
These weapons were either donated to the museum or purchased. The two metal-hilted yataghans had also been registered in the pre-war period. During the interwar, especially between 1930-1935, while Ioachim Miloia has served as director of the museum, have been purchased another series of yataghans.
A last important batch of weapons entered the Museum's collection after World War II, in 1959, following a transfer from the Home Office represented by the Timisoara 232 Unit.
The "piece de resistance" of The Banat Museum's collection is certainly represented by the weapon that was held, for a short time, by the leader of the first Serbian anti-Ottoman movement Dorde Petrović Karadorde.
The founder of the South Hungarian Society of History and Archeology and also the donor of this yataghan, dr. Ormós Zsigmond, remarks that the weapon's value is increased by the fact that it belonged to Karadorde (Cerni György).
The letter of donation also asserts that the yataghan was taken by the Serbian leader "from the hands of a Turk" during a fight, without offering further information regarding the year and the place of the specific battle. We can also find out from this specific letter information regarding the purchase of the weapon and its previous owner. Ormós purchased the yataghan on June 23rd, 1876 at Orşova, from the widow Schevits who held the weapon as an heirloom.
These informations have been published in the specialized magazine of the Museum Society of History and Archeology in the year 1889, while in the 1st file of inventory held by the Banat Museum the yataghan is recorded as a "Turkish yataghan".
We have to underline the fact that Karadorde's yataghan represents the only Oriental weapon of the collection whose inscriptions had been translated and recorded in the old files of the Banat Museum."


source : The yataghans collection of the Banat Museum, by Zoran Marcov, Head of Department National Museum of Banat, Timisoara, Romania


remark: do not search the internet for crnosapci or belosapci / bjelosapci as
- crno is black and belo / bjelo is white in Serbian, Croation, Bosnian
- and sapci plural for sapac being hilt / handle

[gp]

The Dalmatian yatagan M 1869 is a unique model of the world's cold weapon, since these are no longer unique but semi-industrially or semi-manufactory made pieces which involve serial production of identical pieces in terms of their dimensions, appearance and weight, and serial number and unit designations. Also, the handle is made of man-made bakelite derivatives, so it is unique and avant-garde in this respect as well. All known pieces of yataghan M 1869 have an army inventory stamp consisting of the name of the battalion and the number of weapons in the unit, and some of these figures are high and it can be inferred that all the domobrans were armed with such weapons. The image of the Austro-Hungarian military painter Julius von Blaas depicting the attack of the 79th Battalion (led by a local resident) on Livno during the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1878 testifies to this. (Manuel Martinović)

source : svijet-filatelije 2019 on a stamp by Croatian Post Mostar

[cyten]

And back on topic: the stamps / marks on the picture in cyrillic are the names Omar, Faruk, Rabomal Hasan, Rabomal Halu, Osman and Alu ( Alu being probably an elative case of Ali )

just a small clarification, It is Omar, Khalil, Rabotal Hasan, Rabotal Khalil, Osman, and Ali

[Battara]

What great info! My absolute favorite Ottoman sword is the yataghan. I had 2, but one got stolen years ago, but I have the other one. Both were Balkan, and the stolen one was from Focha (I LOVE their work!).

I'll add this to my yataghan book from Sarajevo, and Elgood's work on weaponry from the Balkan region during the Ottoman era.

[gp]

What great info!

most happy to oblige . Hence another piece of info from Croatia :

Inscriptions on the “Zagreb yataghan”

Tatjana Paić-Vukić ; The Archive of CASA, Zagreb 2013.

"Blades of the Ottoman long knives, yataghans, are frequently decorated with geometrical and floral motives, and different inscriptions.
In Zagreb, as the property of S. V., there is a richly decorated yataghan produced in AH 1224. / AD 1809-1810 in Bosnia.
It was made for some of the descendants of the Bosnian Vizier Mehmed Pasha Miralem, probably for his grandson Mehmed Miralem.
On both sides of the blade, there is a great number of cartouches and round ornaments made with the technique of inlaying with gold wire.
They contain calligraphic inscriptions in the Arabic, Ottoman Turkish and Persian languages, comprising prayers, proverbs, invocations and verses encouraging fighting against enemies, expressing confidence in God and asking the Prophet Muhammad to intercede for the owner of the yataghan in the next world. By comparison with the items described in catalogues and other literature, it appears that the “Zagreb yataghan” is exceptional both for containing extraordinarily great number of inscriptions and for having two lengthy inscriptions in Persian.
As for comparison, none of the yataghans from the Zemaljski muzej [National Museum] of Sarajevo contains inscriptions in Persian, while the collections of Hrvatski povijesni muzej [Croatian Historical Museum] and Istorijski muzej Srbije [Historical Museum of Serbia] have only one such item each. In this paper, all the inscriptions are presented in Arabic script and transliteration, and translated into Croatian.
They could help researchers dealing with Ottoman cold weapons to recognise and reconstruct identical sayings and verses found on other yataghans in cases when they are partially damaged and hardly legible, in the way in which I benefited from the work of Muhamed Ždralović on the yataghans of the Croatian Historical Museum.
Finally, the fact that another product of the artisan named el-Hacc Mehmed-zade, who decorated the “Zagreb yataghan”, is kept at the Military Museum in Istanbul could contribute to the systematisation of data on yataghans from individual workshops in the Ottoman Empire."

although I understand many here do not understand Serbo-Croatian or as it is called now Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, I can advise nevertheless to download the Croation version with regards to the inscription, its phonetical translation and some most interesting pictures.

https://hrcak.srce.hr/search/?stype=2&c%5B0%5D=article_keywords&r=10&t%5B0%5D=el-Hacc%20Mehmed-zade

[gp]

The image of the Austro-Hungarian military painter Julius von Blaas depicting the attack of the 79th Battalionon Livno during the occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1878

Combat of Dalmatian Imperial infantry at Livno August 8th 1878

Location: Vienna, Austria

Holding Museum:Austrian Military Museum / Institute of Military History

Date:1907 (Signed and dated "Julius v. Blaas 1907")

Type of object:Painting

Material(s) / Technique(s):Oil on canvas

Dimensions:120 x 200 cm

scene of the occupation campaign of 1878 where the Dalmatian Imperial Infantry is attacking in line formation at Livno.

[ariel]

This painting is quite interesting. On this Forum we had many discussions about potential uses of Yataghans. Often, there were opinions that Yataghans were not fighting military weapons, but rather just post battle head-cutters or such.
Here we see organized military unit attacking enemy positions with Yataghans; this seems to contradict the above notion.

Nepalese Gurkhas performed military feats with their Kukri, a somewhat yataghan-like short bladed chopper.

[gp]

This painting is quite interesting. On this Forum we had many discussions about potential uses of Yataghans. Often, there were opinions that Yataghans were not fighting military weapons, but rather just post battle head-cutters or such.
Here we see organized military unit attacking enemy positions with Yataghans; this seems to contradict the above notion.
.

Comes perhaps with the territory ?

The 2 drawings of the Bosnian resistance against the Habsburg take over in 1878 I posted , also shows they went for the Austrians with rifle AND yataghan...as not each fighter had the means to buy a gun, so some only went with their yataghans and bichaqs into battle. All conform their tradition which differs from a western one.

Also bear in mind this unit, although an Habsburg K.u.K. unit, is made up out of locals (Dalmatians). And take also into consideration that Franz Josef II and his war ministers thought it to be a walk over....mistakenly.....as they learned soon.
Hence unprepared (read not armed as they ought to be for a war ) their units were not really up for a fight and the insurrection they were about to meet in 1878....So ammo could be scarce and locals fighting locals in a traditional way perhaps as well...

a scan of a border patrol and a duel

[gp]

additional reading & legal PDF download:

INTRODUCTION TO THE STUDY OF ISLAMIC ARMS AND ARMOUR
by Dr. A. Rahman Zaky 1961.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiI1eW8243qAhXB5KQKHRn8COkQFjAAegQIBBAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgladius.revistas.csic.es%2Findex. php%2Fgladius%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F211%2F213&usg=AOvVaw20ATYcOh8jJi7nY6bj90Bt

[gp]

a few more pics from "Die österreichisch-ungarische Monarchie in Wort und Bild" - "Dalmatien", Band 11 Wien, k. k. Hof- und Staatsdruckerei., 1892

[gp]

some more pics by Henri Avelot et J. de La Nézière - Monténégro, Bosnie, Herzégovine - Henri Laurens, Paris - no date (1894) - 248 pages

[gp]

for those whose "bible" :p is called Elgood, I can advise and do prefer when talking Balkan and specially for Bosnian cold weapons :

1. next to the already by me mentioned book old weapons in 56 pics "Starinsko Oruzje sa 56 slika u tekstu " by Curcic Vejsil (Vejsil Ćurčić (1868, Sarajevo – 1959, Sarajevo) published by Drzavna Stamparija
in Sarajevo 1926.
Although in Serbo-Croat, google translate does do the trick 4 U ;)
2. "Jatagane" by Marija Šercer, original in Croation published in Zagreb but also availabe in German 1976 by Landeszeughaus in Graz Austria : Volume 5 van Veröffentlichungen des Landeszeughauses Graz
3. Balkans Arms , knives and daggers 18th-19th century by Tarik Kožo - , in 3 languages (!); Bosnian, German and English, 2010 Sarajevo; book of the old stock "balkan arms" deals with specimens of knives and knives from the last times of the Ottoman domination over the Balkans. Hereby some pics so you can recognize some of yours in yoyr collection

[gp]

And some more pics. One of them shows a smal knife which I boiught as a Serbian Lady's knife but actual isn't and conform Kozo is a little metal dagger for men...

[gp]

most of these above cold weapons were used when Habsburg after the Congres of Berlin occupied Bosnia in 1878 and caused a severe resurrection with many lives lost at both sides. This fierce fighting of the Bosniaks later caused the Austrians to create 4 infantery regiments in 1882 AKA Bosniaken or Bosnische=Herzegowinische Infanterie Regimente I - IV.

Enclosed pics of the fighting in Sarajevo by their leader Salih Vilajetovic AKA Hadzi Loja.

FYI: the bridge in the last picture was called after 1878 Latin Bridge by the Austrians, after 1918 its name became Princip Most (= Princip Bridge, after Gavrilo Princip) and is now called Latin Bridge again.

[gp]

/error/

[gp]

a few more cold arms pictures from an old book I have, published in the former Yugoslavia some 8 decades ago: "Oružje starih hrvata", by Milan Praunsperger.
If you understand some of any of the Slavic languages, it is quite easy to read. If not: google translate will do 80% of the job for you and with your knowledge it will easily be 98% :)

[gp]

This painting is quite interesting. On this Forum we had many discussions about potential uses of Yataghans. Often, there were opinions that Yataghans were not fighting military weapons, but rather just post battle head-cutters or such.
Here we see organized military unit attacking enemy positions with Yataghans; this seems to contradict the above notion.

Nepalese Gurkhas performed military feats with their Kukri, a somewhat yataghan-like short bladed chopper.

just came to my mind:

this Austrian / Habsburgian regiment was a border regiment from Dalmatia: actually recruted mostly from the poorer regions around Split, Dubrovnik and the Bay of Kotor ( the latter only belonging after WW I to Montenegro and prior that being almost one with... Herzegovina...which was though Ottoman till this battle and annexation in 1878) and hence the interaction not only religious, cultural, linguistic but also tradewise between these border regions.

Consequentually the "yatag(h)an "like sword might have well been made or purchased from the same weapon black smith and looks very close to a kilij (or as in Turkish; kılıç ) which both on the painting used by the "footsoldiers " lacking the crossguard or quillon and as well mine below, purchased in the Balkans...