Waterloo or not... [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Jim McDougall

12th June 2019, 03:55 PM

This famous photo was taken in Sevastopol on April 23, 1855, by photographer Roger Fenton who was sent there by Thomas Agnew of London to capture images of the Crimean War in place there.

The Crimean War was one of the first to be observed in a journalistic sense by 'war correspondents', and Roger Fenton one of the first official photographers.
While it is fascinating to see images in 'real time' of such historic events, it was typical that such photographs were 'staged' to dramatize or recreate the circumstances. Obviously it would have been difficult to move the equipment and properly set up each shot spontaneously.

In this case, the 'road' was probably somewhere near the location where the famous 'Charge of the Light Brigade' took place. The British troops were under constant shelling and gathered shot for further use, and it is believed the balls that line this road were either thrown there as such..........or more likely these were 'staged' there for dramatic effect. Another photo from the same vantage point is void of cannon shot.
The valley was apparently called 'valley of death' by the British forces from that constant barrage.

The famed charge of the Light Brigade had taken place October 25, 1854, and Lord Tennyson penned his famous poem, which of course had used the phrase 'valley of death' on December 2,1854. It was published in the 'Examiner' on December 9, 1854.

Fenton first exhibited this photograph in September of 1855, so the title was likely with reference to Tennyson's use of the 'valley' phrase.

1. The 1855 photo of cannon ball strewn valley by Fenton
2. artistic rendition of the action in 1854 , the charge.
3.the area today contains a vineyard as seen in this panorama

Via Dixiane

12th June 2019, 06:35 PM

thanks jim for the pictures and your interest

fernando

12th June 2019, 07:33 PM

Jim, in trying to relate your post & pictures with the ongoing topic, the closest i can get is that you are suggesting that the discussed setup is not an isolated personal memorandum but a 'marketing' souvenir.
While in the famous photo you show, judging by the 'disciplined' (read implausible) line up of such immense parade of balls, is practically undeniable that it is a setup organized by the photographer, to the extent you may even doubt if those balls were actually all shot, without an extra resource of unshot ammunition reserves, at least Via Dixiane memo has a bursted grenade, which gives it a reality look.
I don't have scruples in so saying because i once saw a photographer, during a street demonstration (Paris 1968), enticing a young man to burst the windows of a kiosk, to later publish the scene in his magazine, as if it were spontaneous.

Jim McDougall

13th June 2019, 12:23 AM

Actually I had not given it any thought, and simply recalled research of years ago when I was obsessed with the "Charge of the Light Brigade" and the cannons, which were the focus of the immortal charge.

'cannon to the left of them, cannon to the right of them, cannon in front of them, volley'd and thunder'd'

I was not suggesting anything, but as this item is said to be from Sevastopol, my memory to countless years of research on the charge was piqued.

Batjka translated the inscription, clearly Cyrillic, and suggested perhaps it was a fragment of a shell from the Crimean War. Somehow that triggered thoughts of the charge and the lines of the Tennyson poem, and the famed photo.
I actually had no thought of the character of the ball shown, whether it was authentically exploded or not, nor why it was mounted, except I will note that there are countless souvenir items from that war with such labels.
As far as I have known these are generally items which belonged to members of the units in the Crimea, presentation items to such groups, and personal keepsakes.
I have never seen 'marketing' souvenirs from this war personally, so would not have thought of such an instance for this example of what is commonly known as 'trench art'.

In trying to add interesting information pertaining to Sevastopol, as suggested by Batjka, I did not realize I had postured such a perplexing notion.

Jim McDougall

13th June 2019, 12:26 AM

thanks jim for the pictures and your interest

You are very welcome! fascinating item. I once had a ball from the War of 1812 I acquired in New Orleans, which sat on my desk for decades. Eventually it literally fell to pieces, completely corroded from within.

Simply an anecdote about cannon balls in general :)

Victrix

13th June 2019, 07:55 AM

You are very welcome! fascinating item. I once had a ball from the War of 1812 I acquired in New Orleans, which sat on my desk for decades. Eventually it literally fell to pieces, completely corroded from within.

Simply an anecdote about cannon balls in general :)

Jim, you are a living encyclopedia! :) Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge on this forum.

fernando

13th June 2019, 11:18 AM

If i may Jim, not all of us get carried in the same direction ... in this case when it is about electing one's topic collateral inputs.

... In trying to add interesting information pertaining to Sevastopol, as suggested by Batjka, I did not realize I had postured such a perplexing notion...
Call it instead a little hesitation, before i figured out which angle of the topic you selected to articulate.

... While it is fascinating to see images in 'real time' of such historic events, it was typical that such photographs were 'staged' to dramatize or recreate the circumstances.
... As such is what in my entry i have chosen to focus on; the subject of inauthenticity of images; a practice that you point out having been exercised since the very first photojournalist intervention on the scenario. This drove me to recall the experience i had in the 1968 French tumults, not counting later episodes of similar caliber.

fernando

13th June 2019, 02:18 PM

Spoke too soon ...
This one even has articulated features.

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batjka

13th June 2019, 03:56 PM

fernando

13th June 2019, 04:26 PM

... So it's plausible (if not likely) that the balls and the grenade are authentic ordnance from Crimean War...
Sure thing Batjka; that is something i did not think of doubting.

Jim McDougall

13th June 2019, 04:30 PM

The ensemble is definitely put together in recent times - the script is contemporary Russian Cyrillic, put in place after the orphography reform of 1918. However, it does not mean that the items are not authentic. So-called "black archaeology" is widespread in Russia with people digging up items from passed wars and selling them as souvenirs. So it's plausible (if not likely) that the balls and the grenade are authentic ordnance from Crimean War.

Very well noted Batjka!!! The inscribed plate is most pertinent, as you say that its manner of Cyrillic is a manner post 1918. Indeed, this does NOT suggest any inauthenticity of the items used to fashion this poignant memento. …..which is what it is, NOT a contrived marketing item.
The fact that the plate simply notes 'IN MEMORY OF SEVASTOPOL' strongly suggests this notion, rather than elaborately detailing date, event etc .
While the 'black art' possibility is compelling, it is possible this assembly might have been put together many years ago from a survivors memorabilia and likely by the family who did not know details of its circumstance.

When I mentioned 'trench art', this referred to many items which were fashioned by soldiers using items of ordnance, and other battle related materials to fashion interesting assemblies in the manner of this cannon ball display. What comes to mind is candle holders etc. made from shell casings (much of this was WWI),

When I illustrated the photo of the 'Valley of the Shadow of Death', the intent was to convey the powerfully dramatic effect that artillery had on the men in the Crimean War, the relentless shelling and the foreboding feeling that went with the photo. The reason I brought forth the fact that it had been 'staged' was to establish transparency and emphasize this was the artistic effect the photographer wished to instill.

Clearly, whoever assembled this almost chilling memento of Sevastopol had intended to convey similar notions.

While I know that in the original post there was apparently a genuine hope of this relic/art having Waterloo provenance, however, the battles and events in the Crimea in 1854-56 were equally important. The 'Charge of the Light Brigade', mostly through the words of Lord Tennyson, is one of the most famed, and fateful, cavalry charges in history. It is remarkable that his poem, as well as this famed photo with title phrased from it, carry the dramatic nuance of this relatively little known war.
This 'memento' does much the same, regardless of when and why it was assembled.

fernando

13th June 2019, 05:20 PM

Jim, what i read from Batjka is that these ammunitions were potentially caught in the Crimean war scenario, but intentionally for the making of setups to sell as souvenirs.
You might have missed or ignored my post #14 where i have shown pictures of an example in the same line as the one here discussed, in this case (by the way) an articulated candle holder, ironically offered in a Waterloo memorabilia website, although assumedly tagged as a Crimean souvenir.
From which both notes we have no doubt left that, these things pour out there, definitely for commercial purposes. Looking at these as they should be seen, is a way to not confuse them with more serious items, actually made to remember moments by those who had been through such real tragic situations.
All in all i realize that, one and the other do not represent the same :shrug: .

kronckew

13th June 2019, 05:30 PM

Cannon balls literally carpeted the Valley of Death, many rolling back downhill and collecting on the valley floor. This one is almost the same location as the earlier photo, but before the EOD teams cleaned up the road.

Jim McDougall

13th June 2019, 06:04 PM

Cannon balls literally carpeted the Valley of Death, many rolling back downhill and collecting on the valley floor. This one is the same as the earlier photo, but before they cleaned up the road.

Wayne this is a most interesting perspective. There is indeed an alternate photograph without the cannon balls scattered, however in the investigations which I read, it was suggested this photo was taken BEFORE the balls were placed in array for a more 'provocative'(?) photo.

In looking at the photo, it does seem that some of the ordnance is somewhat imbedded in the dirt or ground material. If these were placed strategically for the purpose of a photographic image, would they have had such evidence of settling into the surface dirt? Meanwhile those balls on what appears to be the main 'travelled' part of the road remain superficially situated ( harder dirt?).

The suggestion that given the hilly terrain, the spent balls would have likely rolled downward after impact and loss of velocity, is well placed. But that so many seem to have all hit in the same place and rolled backward en masse seems somewhat suspect, though still plausible.

The trajectory and distances that cannon shot would travel, even though low velocity, is remarkable. Even a slow moving ball could effect traumatic injury past its established range, often they could even be seen moving along in flight.
My GG grandfather, who fought through the Civil War, and lived to very old age (died 1941) was interviewed about his recollections and asked if he was ever wounded said, he was....."got hit by a cannon ball once, but didn't hurt me none'!! Clearly the ball was beyond spent, and at the end of its flight.

I think the point is that regardless of how certain relics or objects which have provenance to a certain event or campaign are displayed, they still have inherent historical importance. We cannot possibly determine (usually) what the intent of such assemblies or displays might be, and can only try to appreciate whatever inherent value might exist.

With art, the purpose is to elicit certain emotional, sensitive and other subjective reactions in the viewer. Clearly those results have been accomplished here, thus is the essence of 'art', and well done.

We do all see things through different prisms, and myself as both artist and arms historian (only in degree in both) I am inclined to see subjects from an artistic perspective, and often overtly optimistic.

A quote I have long kept best describes:
"...I was once told that it was said of Laking (Sir Guy Laking, British arms historian and collector) that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".
"Arms and Armor Study in Edwardian Britain"
Sid Blair & Michael Lacy (1999).

Laking was one of the early 'greats' in arms collecting and well known author of many long venerated articles and references, who I very much admired from my own early beginnings in collecting.

kronckew

13th June 2019, 06:46 PM

:) I almost added an "or after" after the before :); I figured you'd comment ;).

Journalists have always spiced up their photos, right up to now. one got fired not long back when they found he was holed up in a posh hotel far from the front in the sandpit and staging photos to 'illustrate' his second hand stories.

I heard they moved bones a lot in Cambodia to make it more concentrated and less spread out 'for dramatic purposes' after it was safe for them to go back..

Will M

13th June 2019, 06:57 PM

Jim McDougall

13th June 2019, 08:16 PM

These are great pieces of history. No reason to doubt authenticity as tons of it is still in the ground. Seems they are digging up stuff for decades and more.
I have 93rd Highlander buttons from a seller in Russia, most likely from old graves dug up as you don't find lost buttons by the dozens. Seems wrong to me but well after 100+ years out of living memory graves tend to be more archeological and less sacred. I have no idea if British Crimea graves were well marked or not or a variation of unmarked and marked.

As far as I know Will, there is a memorial marker to the British soldiers who fell during the 'Charge' in the location there (mostly vineyards now). It seems most graves, as often in battle aftermath situations, were largely unmarked, or whatever temporary markers now long gone.

Places of battle still give up relics and material from those events, and for example, in Nashville and surrounding areas there are constantly items found from the Civil War.

As young boys, my brother and I living in Utah at what was once a WWII air force training base (the war had only been over less than 10 years), we were walking through a field a in the tall grass found a (thankfully inert) 500 lb. training bomb. It was mostly empty, but we carried in home, to the dismay and horror of neighborhood folks as they looked out their windows! It is not hard to imagine the reaction of our parents.
After time, dad put in in the attic. Then we moved...…..unloading our stuff states away, my brother and I wondered where the bomb was...….dad apparently uh, forgot it in the attic...
I often wondered the reaction of the houses' new owners! :)

fernando

13th June 2019, 09:50 PM

... Journalists have always spiced up their photos, right up to now. one got fired not long back when they found he was holed up in a posh hotel far from the front in the sandpit and staging photos to 'illustrate' his second hand stories.
I heard they moved bones a lot in Cambodia to make it more concentrated and less spread out 'for dramatic purposes' after it was safe for them to go back..
Wayne old chum, i know you are a well versed dude.
Grapeshot, reportedly (also) used in Sebastopol, has a 200 meters (minus) range. From this on, solid shot is used, which can reach with efficacy a minimum 200 meters, going a few hundred more. When used in close quarters, like it is written in Peninsular War records, within 50-50 meters (French forces in Vimeiro), and even as close as 40 steps (Allied forces, left flank in Buçaco), the result is devastating, to the extent that, the parts of bodies mutilated in first the line hit the ones in the back equally with lethal results. But when these volleys found no obstacle in front they would fly low for a while and then landed, rolling endlessly and catching as many enemies as they can find in their path. However, realizing that such erratic course would make them all fall down the hill and stop in line on the same slope, is like believing in an act of God.
Concerning photo fixing, it takes a wise man to define the thinness of the line between staging and forgering. I like your mentioning the number of journalists spicing their photos, the position 'adjusting' of the Cambodian bones and all. On the one hand, you have such characters doing it all for scoring audience points and, on the other, you have these hawks doing whatever it takes to make their dirty bucks. I compare a side note made by Ariel the other day, reminding us that, (quote) in the Old City of Jerusalem one can buy aluminum cans with “ The air that Jesus breathed” (unquote) with the relics from (Portuguese) Fatima sanctuary, containing earth from the sacred place the Lady appeared.
On a different note, it doesn't take any illuminated scholar to tell us that we must always have a kind word for our fellow collector's item. One thing is to offer our insignificant knowledge about it, with sincere honesty and exempt of all sarcasm, the other is illude him by saying his piece is an excellent acquisition. It is best he faces reality and learns from it, preventing him from carrying on acquiring mediocre stuff, giving him a hand to discern what is good and what is a dud. We are all grown ups around here; no lollipops needed.

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Via Dixiane

14th June 2019, 08:03 AM

fernando

14th June 2019, 01:27 PM

You are welcome to show us further acquisitions, Va Dixiane :cool: .

Jim McDougall

15th June 2019, 02:49 AM

hi everyone,

that's great, i learnt quite a few things thanks to all of you.

The reason i had to believe it came from Waterloo in the first place was that there are quite a lot a memorabilia from it. I did not know the Crimean war also had the same phenomenon.

When it come to journalists, due to my experience in former Yugoslavia i know that they like to show things according a certain "angle".

I am glad for what I could add here, and while the display apparently was not from Waterloo as you had hoped, the Crimean War was also rich in historical context. For me personally it was exciting to revisit the extensive research I enjoyed on both over many years. The memorabilia phenomenon is of course pretty universal in the human experience as nostalgia and curiosity effects most people in one way or another.

I thank you for sharing this item here, and giving us a chance to learn from it.

I would add that it seems a number of these 'arrangements' of ordnance from Crimean War context appear to be 'marketed' online with similar setup and brass plaques.
Perhaps these might imitate earlier such displays of actual souvenirs from the Crimea which became prototypes for these 'marketed' arrangements.

An interesting instance found under "War Tourism" (Wiki):
"...during the Crimean War, tourists led by Mark Twain visited the wrecked city of Sevastopol- he even scolded his travel mates for walking off with SOUVENIR SHRAPNEL".

It would seem that while there MAY have been authentic such displays of such materials in those times.....obviously as with all manner of militaria and these kinds of items, one must be aware of the constant presence of modern creations of same.

There is no harm in optimism in observing items shown, however all possibilities must be considered equally. Discussing an item toward its inherent historical potential whether authentic or not is not necessarily the concern of the discussion, for some of us it is the history being represented that is important.
To each his own, and for collectors, as always.....caveat emptor.

kronckew

17th June 2019, 10:38 AM

Was enthralled by Errol Flynn's Charge of the Light Brigade, and the movies about the Wooden Ships and Iron men of the age of sail and their weapons, as well as the famous 'last stands' from Leonidas at Thermopylae onwards.

Wastched a movie a few days ago about 21 Sikh warriors in the British army making a last stand in a outpost fort in afghanistan against 10,000 pathans for days, to allow the Brits time to come up the Khyber with reinforcements for the main Skh regiment. They died to a man, but took hundreds of the enemy with them before running out of ammo, and then took quite a few before the died with cold steel.

Grapeshot is fairly large, was arranged around a central wooden rod set in a wooden base sabot, and wrapped in a canvas cover. Cannister was also coming into fashion, with musket balls in a ton 'cannister'. all last ditch shots as you were about to be overrun. You had more chance not to be when breech loaders ballowed faster reloads before they swamped you. Colonel Shrapnel's invention with the bombs bursting in the air were deadly at longer ranges. cased shells with timed shrapnel warheads provides a blast of balls in a wide oval at very long ranges and were the age's cluster bombs. especially useful with the new rapid breech loading recoil damped pieces from the end of the 19c. I seem to recall cannister was used by US & Allied forces in the pacific WW2, Korea, and also in Vietnam.

below are a batch of grape charges for a 9-pounder naval gun, cased cannister, and a cutaway of a shrapnel round shot, and a modern ogival artillery round.

fernando

17th June 2019, 12:53 PM

Governor, history is profuse in narrating epic episodes in that a handful of dudes defended a post from the assault of a zillion foes.
We know of some that would put Leonidas far back in the queue for the Guiness ;). I gather that, the difference between facts and myth often resides in the ratio of combatants allegedly registered in either side.

The ammo business ...
Grapeshot and shrapnell were both (also) used in the Peninsular war, together with canister, which curiously we call lanternetas (small lanterns). Wellington was not fond of shrapnell, which he personally checked that its effect wasn't lethal enough; plenty wounds but ... not deadly as should. He saw General Simon being hit by shrapnell in his face and head; the bullets were removed like it is done when one accidently gets hit by birth shot in the face whilst duck hunting (SIC); not actually seriously wounded. When he heard that in Badajoz they used such grenades with the 24 pounders as a solution, he ordered that cannons of equal caliber were loaded with musket balls, to obviate such system flaws and ensure that the wounds did in fact incapacitate the ones that received them.
One not so talked about apparatus that became a latter occasional addition (1823-1814) in this war was the explosive rocket, invented by Baronet Sir William Congreve.

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kronckew

17th June 2019, 01:06 PM

fernando

17th June 2019, 01:54 PM

Yes, but a wounded may recover and return to battle; thus a good enemy is a dead one.
I like the peas ... not loose, but with meat cubes and poached eggs.

kronckew

17th June 2019, 06:22 PM

Yes, but a wounded may recover and return to battle; thus a good enemy is a dead one.
I like the peas ... not loose, but with meat cubes and poached eggs.

Medicine in those days was pretty terrible. They'd probably have bled them to strengthen their humours, most died of infection, some recovered tho. Minor wounds were a bit different tho.

A general on horseback that was next to Wellington at Waterloo had his leg taken off at the knee by a roundshot, he looked at Welly and said 'My Dod, sir, I've lost my leg!' - Wellington replied 'My Sod, sir, so you have". The general recoverd, sans a legs tho.

When the movie Zulu came out, people were horrified to learn the Zulu wounded left behind were executed by the Brits. (the Zulu did likewise). This was done frequently as a kindness rather than letting them suffer thru infections they couldn't cure. And of course a bit of revenge thrown in. Hard to condemn them when conditions were so different than the lives we lead now with modern medicine. Heck, the Roman legions had better medical care and a much better chance of survival than an 18-19c and very early 20c soldier. Lister made a big difference.

fernando

2nd July 2019, 07:16 PM

Watch the "unreal" result of solid shot volleys in this public lamp, after Portuguese regime forces were defeated by the rioters that ended the Monarchy, 5th October 1910.

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kronckew

3rd July 2019, 07:53 AM

Watch the "unreal" result of solid shot volleys in this public lamp, after Portuguese regime forces were defeated by the rioters that ended the Monarchy, 5th October 1910.

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Impressive grouping on a narrow target. I'm surprised it didn't break & collapse.

:eek: Is that a selfie stick in the lower left just above the staring guy left of the post?

fernando

3rd July 2019, 10:32 AM

Impressive grouping on a narrow target. I'm surprised it didn't break & collapse.

:eek: Is that a selfie stick in the lower left just above the staring guy left of the post?
That i wouldn't know; what i've heard of is that this very dude is anxious waiting for the post to fall ... so that he can escape from it in due time ;).

kronckew

3rd July 2019, 12:09 PM

It'd be really neat if that post was still around in the same location.

this iron one in Delhi, India has stood like this, and is corrosion resistant, since around 400 a.d. and was dented by a cannonball in the late 18c. Still there, still hasn't rusted away, tho their is some surface rust in places...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi

fernando

3rd July 2019, 02:19 PM

It'd be really neat if that post was still around in the same location...]
Those schmucks didn't know the meaning of culture and proudly replaced it with a brand new one. I guess they wouldn't do it nowadays. It would be a double added value for the monument where it stands by; Restoration of Independence.

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David

3rd July 2019, 05:51 PM

When it come to journalists, due to my experience in former Yugoslavia i know that they like to show things according a certain "angle".
Hi folks. Photojournalist here. I have also spend years teaching on the subject in college level programs. So please allow my (hopefully) informed perspective.
Firstly i must hotly debate that journalists "like to show things according a certain "angle"". We "like" nothing of the kind. I would never argue that journalists do not from time to time get caught cheating. People are people and some just don't think the rules apply to them in any field. But it is the aim and goal of the profession on a whole to present straightforward and unadulterated news always. The fact that journalists are summarily dismissed when they are caught misrepresenting their images should be evidence of that.
This said, the ethics of journalism developed and evolved over a long period of time. What was considered allowable in the 19th century was not necessarily the same as the early 20th. By the time of the great days of publications like Life magazine stronger ethics were employed. By the end of the 20th century they were even more strict. Then digital photography came along and the game changed again.
So when we look at Roger Fenton's work we need to understand it's place in the history of photojournalism as the very first extensive photographic coverage of war to be published in newspapers. We also need to consider the equipment used. Large format view cameras with glass plates using a collodion wet plate process. This required that the emulsion placed on the plates be done in the field and that the images be processed immediately after, meaning that besides the large camera, tripod and numerous glass plates he also travelled with a light-tight wagon filled with chemistry. These plates required vey long exposure times of up to a minute so capturing action was out of the question.
I have little doubt the Fenton set up the cannon balls in his "Valley of Death" image (which btw, was not taken in the same location as the classic charge of the Light Brigade despite its name). He began his career as a painter so was quite used to adding or subtracting content from his images at will and back then there really were no rules about what was acceptable to do in the field of journalism. It is therefore very likely that Fenton, who was already hampered by his equipment and process from producing engaging images that illustrated the war, felt that more cannon balls in the frame would indeed help convey the horrors of the battlefield better.
This kind of questionable ethic continued into the Civil War. Some may be aware of the now infamous image by Alexander Gardner known as "Sharpshooter in the Devil's Den". In this image Gardner actually dragged the body into place and placed the rifle at a prominent angle for the final image. Times were different then.
But again, to be clear, none of these practices are acceptable in the today's world of journalism. When they do happen they are the exception and they are quickly called out by the journalistic community and those photographer's careers are generally left in ruins, dependent, of course, on the severity of the offense. ;)

Jim McDougall

3rd July 2019, 09:50 PM

Im with Wayne, in post #33, the 'swiss cheese' lamppost, that is incredible shot grouping!
As a complete novice in artillery dynamics and photography (especially) I am really curious and would ask the experts here in those fields.
What kind of 'shot' would have the velocity to pierce through what I assume are metal lampposts (though they were probably hollow and formed) in such a clean penetration?
In such a group of almost strategically placed shots, how this post did not collapse is amazing.

Also amazing is that they must have been aiming at the post and not firing in any sort of barrage as there does not appear to be collateral damage in the architecture behind the crowd.

Could such a photo be 'photoshopped' or whatever they in the manner of the innovative things done by renegade photo 'creators' in tabloids etc. these days? I know there were some weird things done with WWI aviation scenes and of course the Conan Doyle hyperbole on 'fairies' etc. ….but could this have been 'created' similarly...….or do we believe it is authentically represented of actual damage?

fernando

3rd July 2019, 09:54 PM

Great input, David.
In this subject of photo setup scenes, i will force a comparison between placing elements on the ground in a manner to obtain a shocking image and have someone to put up a striking number for a photo, with equivalent intentions. The only difference is that, in the first case you are composing a scene that, although plausible, never took place, while in the other, a similar scene could (could) in fact have happened, only that the photographer hasn't caught it life. In both cases, the journal editor is waiting for something to thrill readers.
Technically both are forgeries, no matter their relative caliber.
If i may repeat myself (per post #9), i was in the presence of that American photojournalist when he asked the youngster (student?) to break the kiosk window, for a photo in a famous (guess which) magazine.
… And mind you, this took place in 1968 = mid XX century.

fernando

3rd July 2019, 10:42 PM

Jim, in a way i am glad that you are no expert in both artillery dynamics and photography ... for obvious reasons ;).
If you cared for the details narrated here on the effects of (solid shot) artillery, you wouldn't be surprised that a mid size cannon ball can penetrate a lamp post ... naturally a hollow one, as they all used to be. Neither would we be surprised that the post did not collapse because, being made of some sort of cast iron, would not bend.
Two reasons would explain the impressive quantity of holes in the post. Considering that the rioters had been equipped with nine cannons, after a few hours the number of volleys shot in the same direction would be fairly numerous, those shots on the post not being so implausible. Besides, this was an encounter between nationals; they would either avoid to aim at their keen with precision or, as untrained civilians, didn't have the ability to aim correctly at the target ... adding that the avenue where they were firing from (Liberdade) is rather inclined, a good reason to explain the high aiming.
One last reason to rely on the veracity of this photo is that, in a tiny country like Portugal, there is no Times magazine with their bucks or enough audience to justify a photographer to make up such a fantasy.
And by the way, i don't discern in the picture any background behind the crowd to check for collateral damage in the architecture.
To say that, the only unnatural fact i would admit, is that the (unknown) photographer invited those people to gather behind the post for an historic portrait.

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Jim McDougall

4th July 2019, 03:47 AM

Jim, in a way i am glad that you are no expert in both artillery dynamics and photography ... for obvious reasons.
If you cared for the details narrated here on the effects of (solid shot) artillery, you wouldn't be surprised that a mid size cannon ball can penetrate a lamp post ... naturally a hollow one, as they all used to be. Neither would we be surprised that the post did not collapse because, being made of some sort of cast iron, would not bend.
Two reasons would explain the impressive quantity of holes in the post. Considering that the rioters had been equipped with nine cannons, after a few hours the number of volleys shot in the same direction would be fairly numerous, those shots on the post not being so implausible. Besides, this was an encounter between nationals; they would either avoid to aim at their keen with precision or, as untrained civilians, didn't have the ability to aim correctly at the target ... adding that the avenue where they were firing from (Liberdade) is rather inclined, a good reason to explain the high aiming.
One last reason to rely on the veracity of this photo is that, in a tiny country like Portugal, there is no Times magazine with their bucks or enough audience to justify a photographer to make up such a fantasy.
And by the way, i don't discern in the picture any background behind the crowd to check for collateral damage in the architecture.
To say that, the only unnatural fact i would admit, is that the (unknown) photographer invited those people to gather behind the post for an historic portrait.

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I do appreciate this thorough elucidation as well as Davids keen and experienced insight into photojournalism. In studying the historic aspects of arms and armor, in many cases we do have to rely on photographic evidence obviously in more recent (1850s +) instances. In this the skills used in 'historical detection' are used in evaluating images as you guys have described. Most interesting.

I think, in a way, what is most notable or memorable in the well riddled lamp post photo, is as I have mentioned, the extremely well placed penetrations. These hollow steel fluted posts would not, as mentioned, be terribly thick, so the holes do seem logical.
What I meant by 'collateral damage' is the building walls behind the post, which do not seem (to me) to reflect any damage from these solid shots, while the targeted lamp post has seemingly the entire brunt of the barrage. In most cases with photo images of streets where gunfire or especially heavy rounds in any size of ordnance I have seen, there are chunks of walls and sculptured trim or figures blown off.
Just sayin' 'good shootin'.....fire for effect!

What is impressive is that I had always thought there was a modicum of specialized skill in firing artillery, so having such persons among a crowd of rioting people is remarkable. That indeed makes the outcome here 'historic' and the 'target' pole good evidence of such proficiency .

fernando

4th July 2019, 01:16 PM

... What I meant by 'collateral damage' is the building walls behind the post, which do not seem (to me) to reflect any damage from these solid shots, while the targeted lamp post has seemingly the entire brunt of the barrage...
Jim, i understood you in the first place; just wouldn't figure our what you meant by building walls, as all we can see in the picture is he massive base of the monument. Besides, we must take into account that, the shooting came from the back where the crowd & lamp were pictured. Most probably the back of monument was hit and damaged by the shooting coming from up the avenue, something we couldn't see in the picture and, in any case, must have been repaired.

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Jim McDougall

4th July 2019, 09:01 PM

Thanks Fernando.
Only seeing the corner of some sort of architecture I mistook it for part of a building. I also could not tell which direction the firing came from. This is the hard part of evaluating from photos, especially if there is only a single image without additional detail etc.
With this we can see how images can be misperceived and 'staging' possible without advantage of different vantage points.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th July 2019, 01:56 PM

True, later high explosives worked better. Actually wounding an enemy is better strategically as it takes more manpower to care for the wounded , more food, etc, too, a dead person just needs a hole, or not even that.

Conceive's rockets were in use in the war of 1812, and included in the US's national anthem (the Rockets red glare).

Apparently they also were under development in the Peninsular war.`

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0deTf57rUqE

I like the flank officer's sword....:D

Waterloo hospital site to be dug up by team including UK veterans

From The Guardian - Daniel Boffey in Brussels.

Quote"A group of 25 British and Dutch military veterans are to join the first excavation of the main field hospital established by the Duke of Wellington during the Battle of Waterloo. The former soldiers, sailors and RAF personnel will work with archaeologists, led by Prof Tony Pollard of Glasgow …"Unquote.

Thus in keeping with the theme above, of battle injuries inflicted... Something the weapons designers argued with incessantly...hardly surprising ! I note that the main Field Hospital at Waterloo on the British side is being excavated with a big British team to discover among other things what the main injuries were from gunpowder weapons and blades..Thousands of British troops were treated under continuous fire and the injuries were horrific as men were operated on often in the open...gaping laceration wounds inflicted by French Cavalry Swords and massive cannon and bullet wounds were treated all under fire... Most of the dead were cremated (and there are no graves) and after their bones were used as fertilizer by local farmers..

Jim McDougall

6th July 2019, 04:06 PM

That is a fascinating perspective on 'battle' and in this case, returning to the original theme of the thread posed toward possible 'Waterloo' provenance of a cannon ball.
The scavenging of battlefields was of course well known practice, and while the initial 'retrieval' of goods was by soldiers, but in their case mostly taking much needed supply materials including clothing or what was required. In most cases, soldiers' kit was meagre and worn or damaged, and they took the opportunity to 'upgrade' or replace their own items.
For example, at Waterloo, one badly wounded soldier was still cognizant in hours after the battle, but his wounds so debilitating he could not speak. He was partially dragged as his boots were pulled off. These were the items precious to the soldiers trying to survive.
Coats, and belts, perhaps ammunition cases etc. would replace items the soldiers had and were damaged or lost during the battle.

Items such as weaponry, and ordnance etc. were most often dragged off by civilian population drawn to the place for retrieval of such goods which could be readily sold as surplus, scrap or sometimes novelties.

Often the ghastly business of 'clean up' of decomposed and further ravaged bodies by predators, beyond the obvious carnage of the wounds that killed these men, was often not done for months and longer. Indeed, the more ghastly treatment of these remains did even include pulverizing of bones into fertilizer.....a matter of fact of the unceremonious disregard for men who fought heroically for their causes.

The case described here of excavation of a field hospital is interesting as the resulting interment of remains was likely situated away from the primary locations of battle, and the lesser volume more reasonably handled.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

8th July 2019, 11:33 AM

Incredible as it may seem!~after Waterloo there was a run on false teeth …

Waterloo Teeth – the latest fashion

They say that, on the day after the battle, you couldn’t find a pair of pliers for love nor money. Not for fifty miles around. The new fashion – in London, Paris, Berlin, St. Petersburg and New York – was for dentures fitted with real teeth. And there, on those few square miles of Belgian soil, lay no less than 50,000 potential donors, most of them dead, the rest so close to it that it didn’t much matter. It was the Etruscans, apparently, who first invented dentures – around 700 BC. Teeth from another person or an animal, such as an ox, were inserted into a band of gold with a metal pin and fitted on to the remaining teeth. Dentures remained an option only for the wealthy as they were expensive to make. They appeared again in the 18th Century when sugar addiction had taken a dreadful toll of Europe’s teeth. Fans became popular, not to keep their owners cool, but to waft away the stench of gum disease. False teeth became popular once more. And perhaps the most famous complete set of dentures was that owned by George Washington. It’s pure myth that they were made of wood, of course. In truth, each tooth was carved from ivory, set into lead, and spring-loaded. Uncomfortable! After Waterloo, battlefield casualties became the main source of denture teeth until after the American Civil War. And, after Waterloo, a good incisor could fetch as much as two guineas – the equivalent, today, of around £300.
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The valiant dead used for fertilize

The most recently discovered casualty of the battle was found in 2012 under a car park during the reconstruction of the Waterloo visitor centre. Historian Gareth Glover has pieced together all the available clues discovered with the skeleton and believes that the soldier was Friedrich Brandt, a Hanoverian fighting with the King’s German Legion. Brandt apparently suffered from curvature of the spine but he was killed by a musket ball – still lodged in his ribs when his body was found. This is the first completely intact skeleton to be found on the site for almost 200 years. And that’s no surprise since, until about fifty years after the battle, companies considered it “fair game” to dig up battlefield dead from their mass graves and grind down their bones for sale to local farmers as fertilizer!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

8th July 2019, 12:29 PM

Please see https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=WATERLOO&qpvt=WATERLOO&view=detail&mid=700DB0622DF86C614115700DB0622DF86C614115&&FORM=VRDGAR which is an excellent piece of detective work... and fascinating comparison of the cannon used by both sides and the effect of the weather. The film also discusses the ground vital to Wellingtons troops and how it was disastrous for Napoleon. Battle casualties and how the British quality of treatment had improved is discussed. The point when Ney who had taken over on the battlefield is examined showing a shocking error of judgement when he ordered a huge attack based on the false personal belief that the British were in retreat. This video is highly recommended.

Jim McDougall

8th July 2019, 04:26 PM

Ibrahim thank you for the most interesting look into some of the other aspects of the various 'uses' and perspectives involved in both human remains and battlefield debris outside the 'souvenir' phenomenon.
While it is sometimes difficult to consider the rather dark and sometimes grisly elements of these circumstances, we remember that the weapons we study are also commonly involved in battles and warfare. Looking into the entire scope of these contexts is sometimes necessary for historians of arms, simply for perspective and understanding of the times, though many might consider such views sensationalized and reprehensible.

As someone who has gone through many historic references on battles and military history of campaigns, I always appreciate these insights, however harsh they might seem, as I more appreciate what these people went through.

I think of the apocryphal quote by Robert E. Lee , Confederate General (1862) ..
"...it is well that war is so terrible- lest we grow too fond of it".

And on the opposing Union side, General William Sherman,
"...war is hell".
That brief version removes the full context of what he actually said..
"...I am tired and sick of war. It's glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have never fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for vengeance and desolation. War is hell. "