Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

[QuisUtDeus]

Hello! I've just purchased my first keris. Can anyone tell me what the pamor is and it's magical meaning? I've looked through examples of pamors and to my eyes it looks like it could be one of three. Are there any signs that this is a pre-WWII blade? I want one that was smithed with rituals.

I slept with the keris under my pillow to perform the 'dream test'. No bad dreams, but the scabbard broke where it was glued. There isn't anything wrong with the hilt but it fits my hand very poorly. The mendak is really beat up.

If the blade is worthwhile I'll seek high quality attachments, but if it is a mediocre blade I'll look for mediocre replacements. I really like this blade. It has a strong aura about it. I really dig the pamor. But I don't want to 'overdress' it.

Attached are pictures of the seller's photos. The keris looks alright in them. It was was filthy when I received it, though. I didn't take photos of the dirty keris. I put some time in tonight to clean the blade. I've still got a while to go but much of the gunk is gone. Attached are some 'after' photos of my first cleaning. Parts of the blade have 'milky' appearance. There is some kind of translucent yellow/green.

Is my first keris an ok first buy? And what are the purported magical attributes? Any help would be wonderful. Book references and links are very welcome. I might make the keris a new hobby!

[David]

Welcome to the forum QuisUtDeus. Ambition tag , unless your actual name happens to be Michael. ;)
Just a heads up...all new members are in moderated status at first. That means that your post won't appear until approved by a moderator. I won't also post your other thread since we don't want 2 separate threads going on the same keris, but since you added different information i will copy & paste the text on that other one to here. ;)
Hello, all! I am new to this forum and to the blade hobby. I've picked up a keris from a property liquidation. I can't identify the blade's pamor. I'm hoping it is a pre-WWII piece. I want a blade created with rituals.

The handle is mediocre. The mendak is bent up. The scabbard is very poor. I slept with the keris under my pillow for the 'dream test'. No bad dreams, but the scabbard top snapped off.

The blade, itself, is very cool, though! I've seen very few pamors I like better. It carries a strong energy. If it is a worthwhile blade I will upgrade the attachments.

I think the blade is luk 15. Can anyone identify the pamor and its magic properties? Also, any signs the work is pre-WWII?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/646244825/antique-moro-kris-damascus-steel-battle?show_sold_out_detail=1

[David]

I will try to answer some of your questions.
Firstly, this keris is presented in Balinese dress, but i am having trouble seeing it as a true Balinese blade. The greneng on the gonjo is cut rather poorly for a Bali keris and the gonjo itself does not look right and the sogokan do not seem to be nearly cut deep enough for Balinese standards. I believe the pamor is the standard Beras Wutah - scattered rice grain, but the blade certainly hasn't been treated in the typical Balinese manner of keeping the surface polished smooth. It is also a bit shorter than most Balinese keris of this era. I suppose that a Lombok origin is possible and i have seen Lombok keris in this particular sheath kekandikan style before, but i really can't be sure. I am inclined to think the blade may have a Maduran origin. Despite the obvious wear on this blade it appears more contemporary to my eye than older.
If you are concerned about "over dressing" this blade i personally would not seek any new components for this ensemble. The pelet timoho wood that is used is considered quite desirable and frankly this keris blade is fairly mediocre as Bali style blades go and does not require fancier dress. As for the handle, it isn't really mediocre per se, it is a very common Balinese bondalan form and i see no reason to change it. That it does not fit well in your hand should not make it unsuitable.
If this were mine i would cleanly repair the now broken sheath, clean up the uwer (mendak is a Javanese term) and re-stain if possible after fully cleaning the blade. A re-stain with warangan will do wonders for making theirs blade more attractive IMHO.
All that said, i would not consider this a "bad" first keris. I think most of us probably faired far worse on our first outing. What is always most important about any keris is that you like it. And just a warning...they are addictive! LOL!

[Jean]

This is a quite decent kris IMO and it looks to have some age, including the blade (see the rust between the gonjo and the base of the blade). The Lombok origin seems a fair assumption, the blade has 15 luks indeed and the pamor pattern is a standard one, may be identified as Beras Wutah/ Ilining Warih according to the Neka book. Is the blade fitting neatly into the scabbard? Like David I would change nothing to it except cleaning the blade and uwer, and repairing the scabbard if needed. What is the blade length?
Regards

[QuisUtDeus]

Thank you! My name's not Michael, but St. Michael is one reason I've entered the keris community. A few effigies of him wield a keris. I've actually found a reason for this but it might be too far afield to post in the forum. I do think many of you would find it interesting, though. The reason begins with the keris, then delves into architecture, ethnography, astronomy, and ultimately eschatology. It gets pretty far out.

I'll get back to the subject.

I'm already picking up new parts. I'll save them for a nicer blade. I'll take pictures of the scabbard break for repair advice when I'm off work. It looks to me like carpenter's glue will work. You've given me a lot of historical references to go through. I appreciate it! Where do I get the staining compound? I may not use it, though. The milky look reminds me of a Fremen crysknife from Frank Herbert's 'Dune': a very influential book in my life.

The hilt only fits three of my fingers and my pinky rests on the pommel -- a really bad grip. I wouldn't want to fight with it. What sort of pommeled hilts give an extra few centimeters? Or what style hilts have no pommel?

I'm happy to get addicted to kerises! My audio and watch hobbies have cost a serious grip. The keris hobby is much more affordable. If it turns out this keris has meteorite I will be one happy dude. I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean.

Thank you very much! I'm already looking forward to a new keris!

[QuisUtDeus]

The blade doesn't fit nicely into the scabbard. The angle of the blade base is too acute. As was mentioned earlier, the blade is short and the scabbard too long. It's not a bad fit, but it does bother me a little.

I'm happy it's a decent blade! Thanks for the identification. I'll keep all the parts as you've all suggested but I will be on the look-out for better fitting gear. The mendak really has to go, it's too warped.

Thanks for your help!

[QuisUtDeus]

Blade length was around 14.5 cm I think. I'm at work, can't check till I get home.

It does have a real aura about it. I've got a few modern blades (no kerises) and the steel is just steel. There's no kind of field about it. Is this field normal for a keris? Any members out there into mystic stuff like myself?

[David]

Thank you! My name's not Michael, but St. Michael is one reason I've entered the keris community. A few effigies of him wield a keris. I've actually found a reason for this but it might be too far afield to post in the forum. I do think many of you would find it interesting, though. The reason begins with the keris, then delves into architecture, ethnography, astronomy, and ultimately eschatology. It gets pretty far out.
I would be very interested in seeing an effigy of St. Michael wielding a keris. I think you will find that what the saint is holding in these effigies is a generic flamboyant sword. The keris is not defined by a wavy blade and in fact most keris are of the straight blade or lurus variety. Still, i am glad that St. Michael could get you here, even if through an accidental misunderstanding.
I'm already picking up new parts. I'll save them for a nicer blade. I'll take pictures of the scabbard break for repair advice when I'm off work. It looks to me like carpenter's glue will work. You've given me a lot of historical references to go through. I appreciate it! Where do I get the staining compound? I may not use it, though. The milky look reminds me of a Fremen crysknife from Frank Herbert's 'Dune': a very influential book in my life.
The hilt only fits three of my fingers and my pinky rests on the pommel -- a really bad grip. I wouldn't want to fight with it. What sort of pommeled hilts give an extra few centimeters? Or what style hilts have no pommel?
Well, if you are already picking up new parts i suppose you will now need to buy more keris and are already addicted. ;)
I believe carpenter's glue will do the trick. Just work sparingly and cleanly.
To create warangan is a more difficult issue, especially in the United States (as well as other countries). It is a mixture of arsenic and lime juice. For the most consistent results a laboratory quality arsenic is best, but it is very difficult to legally obtain in the States. Suitable arsenic can be obtained from the mineral realgar, which is an arsenic sulfide crystal and i believe that is legal, but it is much harder to prepare as you need to grind the mineral up for use.
I do appreciate that you are finding your own reference points for this keris (St. Michael, the milkiness of Fremen's crysknife) and i will certainly not try to convince you that might be the wrong approach to take when developing an interest in keris, but i will share my own traditionalist approach anyway. I personally don't collect keris to convert them to my own personal paradigm, but rather to try to explore and understand the paradigm of another culture and era.
You will find that keris handles often don't fit the modern Western hand that well. They were indeed made for a typically smaller grip. I suppose that if i did intend to actually fight with certain keris in my collection i would have to consider a hilt form that better fits my hand, but i certainly have no intention of ever doing so and i am more concerned with keeping a keris as close to it's tradition form and condition as i can. Of course, your mileage may vary.
I'm happy to get addicted to kerises! My audio and watch hobbies have cost a serious grip. The keris hobby is much more affordable. If it turns out this keris has meteorite I will be one happy dude. I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean.
I don't want to burst a bubble here, but very few keris were ever made with meteoric pamor. These were mostly high end court blades made after the late 18th century. Green color showing on a blade in the sunlight is probably far more indicative of a poorly washed blade than one containing meteorite. There is quite a lot of nonsense written about the keris i'm afraid. You cannot always believe what you read.
Oh, and i can also assure you that keris hobby can be just as expensive, if not more, than an audio and/or watch hobby, and i do know that some watches can get pretty expensive. ;)

[Rick]

Saint Michael's flamboyant sword aside; if you want to see the keris in classic European art check out The Blinding of Samson by Rembrandt.

I understand enthusiasm; but learn more about this weapon form and its meaning within the culture before spending too much hard earned cash.
An educated buyer ends up happier in the long run.

"I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean."

Well, this is not true; what you have been doing to the blade by cleaning is actually removing the original stain that the blade was given. :(

[QuisUtDeus]

This is my first time learning about swords at all. Thanks for the flamboyant sword reference! It helps a lot. Things make better sense, now.

I'm sorry if I bother anyone with my customization ideas. I wouldn't dare do such a thing to a beautifully put together piece. The one I got is already mixed up, so I don't see anything wrong with experimenting. I'm learning through deconstruction, I suppose. It's my nature to work backwards.

If I've removed the original stain, it's ok. The rust and gunk really bothers me. I can find a way to stain the blade again, I'm sure. I leave the country every so often.

Don't worry about bursting bubbles. It just means more learning for me. I might buy a meteorite ring to act as a mendak. It is a really powerful substance.

Do you think the following arsenic will work? It seems to be available for sale online.

[QuisUtDeus]

Sorry! I really messed up the measurement. I meant in inches about 13.5. Cm is about 34.5.

[JustYS]

Hi QuisUtDeus,

I just started collecting Keris like yourself, so probably cannot comment too much, but I like your Keris.

It seems that you have what we call a dwiwarno pamor (combination of 2 pamors in one Keris). One is Beras Wutah, the other not so sure maybe Ilining Warih, maybe Wengkon.

Cheers,

Yohan

[Jean]

Sorry! I really messed up the measurement. I meant in inches about 13.5. Cm is about 34.5.

34.5 cm is a bit short for 20th century Bali/ Lombok blades but older blades used to be in this size range. It is unfortunate that the blade & scabbard are not matching well, but the blade is not that short as compared to the scabbard for a balinese kris.
Regards

[Jean]

Do you think the following arsenic will work? It seems to be available for sale online.

This is not arsenic trioxide as it should be? :confused:
Regards

[David]

It seems that you have what we call a dwiwarno pamor (combination of 2 pamors in one Keris). One is Beras Wutah, the other not so sure maybe Ilining Warih, maybe Wengkon.
Sorry Yohan, but i do not see dwi warno pamor here.

[David]

Do you think the following arsenic will work? It seems to be available for sale online.
The short answer here in no.
As Jean has pointed out, what you need is laboratory grade arsenic trioxide. It comes in a crystalline/powdered form. Last time i checked it runs about $160 for a 5gm jar (smallest size). But you generally need special licensing to purchase it.

[David]

34.5 cm is a bit short for 20th century Bali/ Lombok blades but older blades used to be in this size range.
How old are you willing to consider this blade Jean? Most last 19th century Bali/Lombok blades tend to be 15 inches at least. There are, of course, exceptions. If you are not attaching greater age than that to this blade perhaps it is neither Bali nor Lombok. :shrug:

[JustYS]

Sorry Yohan, but i do not see dwi warno pamor here.


Ok my bad, I thought I saw dwiwarno pamor from the first photo, but yes the photo is not very clear.

Cheers,

Yohan

[QuisUtDeus]

The forum experience has been excellent! Thanks all!

If I get addicted enough to the hobby I'll take a trip to Indonesia during my next vacation to the Philippines. It must only be an hour or two away. I can wait to get a custom fit scabbard until then. I'll get the blade stained again if I like. I'm very fond of the food and kretek cigars, already. My cousin says the mestiza girls are pretty. I've found a lot of great books available there I'd like to buy.

I'm at work again. I can't wait to get off and see what more comes up here!

Thanks, everyone.

[A. G. Maisey]

I apologise for my late arrival to this thread.

I can see very little, if anything, of Bali in this blade. I do not see a current era blade, and I am inclined to the assumption that it is very probably of Lombok origin.

Flight time from Manilla to Jakarta is about 4 hours, add the 3 hour lead in time on international flights, the time to clear immigration and Customs in Indonesia, and the time to a Jakarta hotel from the airport, and you're looking at a day, hotel to hotel.

Strange as it may seem, carrying a keris into Indonesia can be difficult, occasionally disastrous. It is a weapon, all weapons must be declared on entry. Get an unsympathetic Customs officer, you can lose it, or at best be given the option of sending it back to where you come from.

Taking a keris out of Indonesia usually poses no problems, but sending one out by mail can become a nightmare. There are ways around the problems, and it helps if you can speak Indonesian and understand the societal mores.

Getting a new scabbard made to order, and having the blade stained may not be quite so simple as it might seem to be. Carefully refitting the blade to the existing scabbard and learning to do the restain yourself might be the wiser option.

The wood in this scabbard would be impossible to obtain at the present time, and even another type of wood that was equal in quality would also be somewhere between difficult and impossible to obtain. This is nice dress on this keris, and it should be retained.

[QuisUtDeus]

Wow! Thank you very much. I thought a quality scabbard would have hidden the jointing better. You can see the glue even in the seller's pictures. When my scabbard broke I didn't get at all angry or annoyed.

I thought it would be easy to get another scabbard. I've never had problem bringing blades into and out of the Philippines. I think my best option will be to bring it there and have a custom hilt and scabbard made. I like kamagong wood. I want a heavy single-piece scabbard without glue. I know a jeweler who can copy the mendak design and install worthy stones.

Everything is good news. My money wasn't ill spent. Thank you deeply for all your help. It seems that a point of origin isn't at all clear, and that is ok. The possibilities you've referenced will make good starting points for academic reading.

I realize everyone that's posted so far is of a very rational mind, but I do want to mention that this blade's aura is growing. I've been reading a lot of threads and the one entitled 'keris and spirit' has been very informative so far. A Swiss man mentions owning a plain keris that two sixth-sense people (like myself) would have nothing to do with. I showed this keris to a friend who also has sixth sense and he will not allow the blade in his house again.

The blade brings me nothing ill. I tingle when I touch it. Out of all the great looking and better quality kerises I chose this physically average piece. Out of the many hundreds of kerises I've looked at on the internet only two or three others appeal to me.

I hope a member with a metaphysical point of view finds this thread. There seem to be a lot of them here.

I'm sorry if my customizing offends anyone. I got this keris for metaphysical reasons and the accessories are all duds. I will repair and take care of them as a rational collector. No worries!

[Jean]

I can see very little, if anything, of Bali in this blade. I do not see a current era blade, and I am inclined to the assumption that it is very probably of Lombok origin.


Thank you Alan and I agree with you.
Regards

[David]

I can see very little, if anything, of Bali in this blade. I do not see a current era blade, and I am inclined to the assumption that it is very probably of Lombok origin.

The wood in this scabbard would be impossible to obtain at the present time, and even another type of wood that was equal in quality would also be somewhere between difficult and impossible to obtain. This is nice dress on this keris, and it should be retained.
While i did at first suggest this keris might be "more" contemporary than not i did not intend to express that i thought it was new and i do agree with both Alan and Jean that it is not post WWII. I was think more early 20th century, but i am certainly willing to concede to more expert eyes that it may be older and yes, probably from Lombok.

As i mentioned before, this type of timoho pelet wood is considered very desirable. I would like to double down with Alan here and suggest that you not change out the dress on this keris. Despite the difficulties you would face trying to bring the keris both in and then out of Indonesia i definitely believe this dress is both appropriate for this blade as well as worth saving. You should not have too much difficulty adjusting the blade to fit better, especially if the stem is already disconnected from the top sheath. I also don't really see any indication in your photos that the uwer (again, it is not a mendak ;) ) is hopelessly damaged. It should also clean up nicely with some scrubbing with a soft toothbrush.
I cannot emphasis more that as someone new to keri ownership it would be in your best interest to learn more about it before acting upon both cleaning and repair.

[Henk]

I do agree with David and Alan.

And please, don't sleep with a keris under your pillow again. And if you insist to do, do it without the scabbard and wrap the blade in a white cloth.
Now you damaged the sheath :eek:

By the way it is a beauty. Well done for a first keris. Follow the advices for cleaning and repair given here and leave it as it is.

[QuisUtDeus]

Haha! Ok, ok, you've all convinced me. I've got a day off tomorrow. I'll go the hardware store to get some carpenter's glue. I'll finish the cleaning, too.

I remembered today that my uncle in Manila was a chemical engineer. I doubt he would have trouble finding the proper arsenic. We could use native, freshly cut limes. It wouldn't be troublesome to bring the keris to Manila for staining.

My uncle's retirement hobby is woodworking. It would be fun to make a new scabbard and handle just for a fun project. I could then claim proper keris addiction. This is all assuming he doesn't get a bad vibe from the blade like my friend and ban it from his house.

I'm very happy you all think the blade is pre-WWII! The seller was a property liquidator who said that the keris belonged to a deceased consulate to Saudi Arabia, whose son was being commited to a nursing home. I was hoping the keris was old enough to be smithed the ritual way.

If this energy I am feeling is normal for a ritually smithed keris, I am very excited! I already have two purchases lined up from one of the collectors on this forum. They're beautiful. I wouldn't alter them.

I've found a bunch of mystical thread topics. I'll go bother those guys with the spirit stuff!

Thank you very much for all your observations. I will have to keep going over this all. I've already forgotten the proper word for 'mendak'...

[A. G. Maisey]

Quis, to repair your scabbard you do not need carpenter's glue, in fact, I strongly recommend against the use of modern woodworking glues for scabbard repair, the reason being that if some of that glue gets in contact with the blade it will be highly likely to generate rust.

Before you think about gluing anything together the first thing you need to do is to clean away all of the existing adhesive very carefully, without removing any of the wood that it adheres to.

Then you need to make whatever adjustments are necessary to the scabbard in order to provide as good a fit as possible for the blade. During this fitting process you will have the opportunity to make the joint between the top part of the scabbard, and the lower part of the scabbard neater than is presently the case.

Probably the very best adhesive for this scabbard joint is 5 minute Araldite, tinted with a tiny amount of burnt umber powder.

Bring the parts together, insert the blade and ensure you have a satisfactory fit. Sometimes the joint will be a little bit loose, a few very thin slices of bambu will take up the slack, even ordinary note paper can be used for this, but bambu is better. You put one slice on at a time, use the Araldite, until you have a joint that fits together without slack. Test the fit of the blade, it should be perfect at this time.Ensure the faces of the joint from the top to the lower part meet smoothly, this fit can be adjusted by the slices of bambu or paper. When you have everything just as it should be you can go ahead with the glue job.

Remove the blade from the scabbard and make a wedge from softwood that will exert light pressure against the two tongues that slip into the top part of the scabbard. Lightly coat the wedge with silicon car polish, this acts as a release agent.

Lightly score the surfaces of the tongues and the meeting surfaces inside the scabbard top, lightly brush silicon car polish onto your blade and set it aside, but within reach.

Mix your Araldite and put a very, very thin coating onto the meeting surfaces.

Insert your blade into the scabbard and align it to the top surface of the scabbard.

Hold the two parts of the scabbard in position with your left hand, remove the blade, insert the wedge.

Set the scabbard aside and upright, wait a few minutes until the adhesive has dried but not set, carefully scrape off any excess adhesive around the joint, both inside and out. Use a wooden scraper for outside, knives and chisels for inside. Wipe the outside with methylated spirits.

Check the blade for adhesive, remove any adhesive with a wooden scraper. Brush the blade with a toothbrush and methylated spirits to remove the car polish. Spray and brush with WD40 to remove the methylated spirits.

This might sound like a lot of work. It is not. Somebody who has done this job a few times will do the whole thing, including the joint clean up in about 30 minutes. Fitting and aligning can take a lot longer, but that depends on how bad the present fit is.

It is a good idea to check the blade fit before the adhesive cures and hardens. If the fit is not satisfactory, it is reasonably easy to break open the joint, clean it up, and do the job again. If the adhesive is permitted to cure and harden before checking, the job to correct fit becomes more difficult and uses much more time.

[QuisUtDeus]

Mr. A.G., you wrote just in time. I'm out of bed and was going to leave for the store soon. Attached are pictures of the break. The break isn't clean in the back; the glue is in tact and crack carries into the warangka (I think that's the word). How do I remove all this glue?

[QuisUtDeus]

Pictures of break and how it fits together:

[QuisUtDeus]

Also, I was planning to do a short lime juice bath as the final step for the cleaning. Should the seeds be strained? It's very important in cooking food. I don't see why it wouldn't be with iron. Many Indonesian members are very picky about the oil so I figure this would extend to the lime.

[QuisUtDeus]

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.

[QuisUtDeus]

I neglected to ask what sort of thread is ideal to reinstall the hilt? Any knotting techniques? It seems to me squareknots would do well?

The old thread was really disgusting, I had to toss it. The seller must have taken his pictures after acquisition and then tucked away the blade for a long time.

What sort of oils are you all using. The Indonesians members say not to use synthetics. I'm inclined to agree with them. But anything you have to say I will also listen to.

[Rick]

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

[QuisUtDeus]

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.

[David]

I can't find the glue and dye you recommended, Mr. A.G. I'll have to order them online and finish the woodwork later. What exactly is this 'bambu'?

There is a little wiggle in the base fit. What do I fill that with? I think for the warangka to match the shape of the blade I would have to do a lot of sanding. I don't do woodwork so don't have machines. It would have to be by hand.
Alan is in Australia, so it's probably sleep time for him at the moment. I am sure he will be back to answer you questions, though i believe i can answer some of them.
Araldite is a two-step epoxy. I am not sure if to is commercially available in the USA, though you can probably find to on the internet. Alan may correct me, but i am fairly sure that there are other two-step you could substitute if you wish.
I suspect that by "bambu" Alan was referring to bamboo. I believe that slivers of bamboo that Alan suggested inserted into the loose spaces will take care of the wiggle room you have. Please correct me if i am wrong Alan.
I don't believe anything you need to do here requires any machine working. It can all be done by hand.
Can you put the pieces together and insert the blade and make some photographs so that we can see how the blade fits (or doesn't) in the sheath? Both the veil from the side and the top as well would be helpful. :)

[David]

I read on the forum not to sharpen the blade. That makes me happy. It's still sharp enough, anyway. I've knicked myself a few times during cleaning.

Is a very light polish a bad idea? I have Cape Cod cloths I use for my watches and jewelry. This is something I'm good at already. I'm very tactile. I can feel when I've polished off less than a mm. I'll be able to retain the pamor.
I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris. ;)

[QuisUtDeus]

Thank you all!

I thought that 'bambu' might be the wood but wanted to make sure. A lot of products these days use curious spellings for their names. I'm not in a rush. I will hold off on restoring the scabbard and buying the glue and dye. If I really need bamboo I will definitely wait until I visit the Philippines again to restore the scabbard. The wood is free and fresh, and I will have an experienced chemist and carpenter to help.

I am excited about this all, but I'm being very careful, so don't worry! I was worried about scratching the blade so contacted a man who restored swords. He recommended a scratchless cleaner and I am using it. So far no scratches! The blade is pretty much all clean now. The pindok is a real pain, though. I will let the lime take care of it.

I'm going to buy some beer now and chill out with my kreteks. Will upload pictures when I return!

[QuisUtDeus]

Fit:

[QuisUtDeus]

Sorry, I'm still not used to using the forum. This is how the blade fits:

[QuisUtDeus]

This is the blade cleaned up, for the most part:

[QuisUtDeus]

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

Thank you! I'm still learning how to use the forum so have not been referencing who I am replying to. I know how to on my day off. A wonderful day off!

I would grow my hair and use that instead, but it takes awfully long to grow.

[QuisUtDeus]

I would not attempt to polish this blade. Bali blade are traditionally polished when cleaned and stained, but i believe we have already established that is is not a Bali blade (probably Lombok) and it seems clear that re-polishing has not been the rule for this blade within its lifetime. If you polish this blade i believe you will ruin the surface.
Care and maintenance of keris is something which may take at least a little time to learn and understand. Being very new to the keris world i would recommend that you proceed with any form of restoration, or even conservation, with time and caution. This blade has been around for a while. I suggest that you don't rush to do anything as a wrong step might not only damage the physical blade, but the spirit and energy that you currently say you feel from this particular keris. ;)

Thanks! I won't polish the blade. I thought I might remove miniature specks of ugliness after the lime treatment, but I will leave it alone now.

I didn't want to put the blade immediately in lime juice. It seemed to me that the corrosion wouldn't come out even. I didn't wanted to do anything corrosive, but, man! That gunk and rust was really awful! It was deep into the ganjah!

[David]

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own. :shrug: :)

[QuisUtDeus]

I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines.

If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work?

I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

[QuisUtDeus]

Thanks for the additional photos. It doesn't look like you should have too much trouble adjusting the fit to this sheath.
The new photos reveal features that i hadn't quite noticed before, like the fullers that run almost 3/4 of the way up the blade. Frankly, the keris appears even less Lombok in these last shots. This isn't t say that it is not, but i feel like there are some Bugis influence working in there. Of course, that would not be completely out of character in Lombok i suppose. Anyway, certainly not a Bali blade. It does seem to be a nice keris regardless of its exact origins.
I hear that you are strong on traveling with this keris to the Philippines, but i personally would not consider making such a trip with it. You really do risk the chance of running into trouble whenever you cross boarders with it. If i were you i would try my best tp keep the keris in the States and do the work on your own. :shrug: :)

I'm really happy to know that the keris is an odd piece! I am a very odd individual. Before I knew anything about kerises, luk 15 blades were the only appealing. 13 was ok. Less I didn't like at all. More than 15 looks goofy, even now. I didn't realize these things until I learned how to count the luks. Then I realized that old empus followed old numerology. 13 is actually the Creator's number: not at all evil. 7 is the midway, not evil as the Japanese see it. I see 15 as a new beginning -- a new cycle. I think I have been here many times. I think creation comes from imbalance. Perfect balance is infinity. Our limitation here is training for it.

I'm sad to see that many people use kerises for fortune and misfortune. This sort of selfishness only leads to curse. Whatever people intend through selfishness leads to nasty karma. I ask nothing. I do not meditate or pray. I work with what I'm given. I follow the clues I am given. We have everything we need to learn with -- especially without any faith. Everyone from Bill Gates to the starving child with a patient vulture nearby. I am not Muslim, but I will say, "Salaam."

It will take me time me a while to learn about Lombok, Bugis, and Bali. I really work a lot and have tens of books I haven't finished because I jump between them all. The books I will be collecting because of this forum are in a long line... :( I remember from my genetic research that Sulawesi is the closest cousin. I really don't like their hilts, though.

As far as bringing blades in and out of the Philippines, I have no worry. I'm a dual citizen. I pass through a separate line to enter just like I do when I enter the U.S. I am half American but I appear to be a local mixed person and there are a lot of us. I don't carry the foreigner aura that natives spot, even in a full-blooded Filipino who has been born and raised in America. I just appear and feel like a mixed Manileno. There are hundreds of thousands. My Tagalog isn't great, but it passes for a mestizo. I actually have more trouble entering the U.S. though I've spent most of my life in it.

The blades I've carried in and out are put in 'balikbayan' boxes -- taped up in exaggeration. They aren't cut open. Just put into cargo. I've never done anything illegal and will not. Even if I wanted to, Filipinos are far too sharp to underestimate. They will catch you. They all have a sixth sense. Remember that! Very important! Don't play with Filipinos. Just be fun!

The only issues I've heard of with weapons through the airport have been of bullets that airport employees have placed in carry-on's. They can try it if they want. But they will bother the actual foreigners, Filipino-by-blood or not. If they do bother me I will call their bluff. If They take my blade I will pay their bribe, but their woe will be very bad. Filipinos, despite being Christianized, Hispanicized and Americanized, are just as superstitious as their neighbors. The old Jungle grows in their veins just the same.

I will save this wood work and staining for the Philippines. If I don't go, so be it.

I am courting the keris with Guiness and Djarum kreteks while it bathes in lime. If I don't answer later it's because I am drunk. If I do answer later it will be because I am drunk.

Salaam, Thank you, Merci, and Salamat Po!

[QuisUtDeus]

Yarn for the handle; just wind it around, a knot is not really needed.
Do a forum search for keris oil and get lots of opinions and recipes.

I've developed my own coconut oil base that I use for my hair. It is seasoned like Jamaican food. Not terribly different than Indonesian, but too complex for Filipinos. Very unlike Thai. I will try it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up.

There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed.

I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care.

The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar)

We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it.

It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp.

When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive.

When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly.

When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A couple of other things we can consider now.

Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt.

To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok.

The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common.

I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend.

David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise.

For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders.

Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again.

A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this.

Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to.

In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining.
All realgar is not equal.
All arsenic is not equal.
It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do.

Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn.

To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove.

Yes, "bambu" is bamboo.
Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are.

Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco.
Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Quis, it seems that you are determined to get your keris restored in the Philippines, so I wish you the very best of luck.

As to luk count, yes, this is associated with belief systems, but those belief systems are Jawa-Hindu, Bali, and Islamic Javanese.

This link will take you to a page of a paper that I published a few years ago that puts forward some ideas on how luk were originally counted and how and why they are counted differently now.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html

Incidentally, coconut oil is a very poor base for fragrant keris oil, singer sewing machine oil or medicinal paraffin is far superior. Over time coconut oil will go rancid and generate a very unpleasant odour, if left on a blade for too long it will require serious solvents to remove it, and years to get rid of the stink.

[QuisUtDeus]

Please, and more please, allow me to digest your knowledges. I'm sure my English sounds funny, but I'm an English major who is half un-English.

I'm a mid-Western, well-spoken American. No matter where I go in the English-speaking world, I can be understood. English speaking is based on specificity. The consonants are important. We can understand each other based on consonants.

In S.E.Asia, though, it is the vowels that matter. This is what I see that foreign people don't understand. They don't understand the music. I, myself, am foreign. The difference is I can speak musically.

AEIOU

Sing what you mean!

I've read about Indonesians being indirect and disliking directness. It's exactly the same in Philippines. Sing what you want to sing! Feel the vowels. They will know what you want and how you feel. The English won't matter. The sounds you make will.

[QuisUtDeus]

I do want to post about smoking.

Kreteks are nothing next to McDonald's. I can run a mile as a kretek smoker. I could not as a fast-food eater when I was 20 years old.

I'm pushing 40 years old, now, and can. Food kills you.

After two long fasts, both without food, I can tell you smoke is nothing. It is less consumptive than food.

Everyone is probably confused by my writing style. None of you are wrong. I am a 38 year-old, unbabied, unmarried, handsome man. I have your logic but do not have your wear.

My karma is different than anyone else's I've met. I am as old as you all in logic but I dream like a boy.

Thank you, All!
Tim

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Tim, I'm pleased that I can now address you as Tim rather than to continually look for you.

Your English does not read in a peculiar fashion at all, it is well constructed and clear. You definitely do not qualify for remedial classes.

As for tobacco, kreteks and food, as with all things, we tend to believe that which we wish to believe. I personally believe the current scientific evidence in respect of both food and tobacco, and of course, kreteks --- and I have very close and personal experience of a man who lost all of his face below the nose and then all of the front of his throat. This cancer was caused by smoking.

Tim, I doubt that we can generalise across all of S.E. Asia upon the importance or otherwise of vowels, consonants and other parts of speech. I am not able to comment upon languages other than Indonesian, Javanese, and to a limited extent, Balinese, but in respect of Javanese, the tendency exists for speakers to alter words in accordance with their own wishes.

Linguists regard Javanese as a non-standard language, and vowels as well as consonants can change between both areas of usage and between individuals in those areas. Much of Javanese communication is based in body language, and that which is left unsaid.

Bahasa Indonesia is a constantly developing language, and the latest development seems to be for educated --- and some not so well educated --- speakers to haphazardly mix English into the base of Bahasa Indonesia. This can make the language unintelligible to people who are not well educated, and utterly ridiculous to many people who are.

Last week I was watching a cooking show on Indonesian TV, I forget what they were cooking, but it was some sort of simple local recipe, like nasi goreng or mie goreng or similar, and the cook kept on breaking into English in his commentary. It sounded absolutely stupid. Like, there are not sufficiently adequate words in Indonesian to tell somebody how to cook fried rice? Yeah --- right!

Tim, I really do envy the fact that no matter where in the world that you go in the English speaking world, you can be understood. I'm a third generation Australian from British ancestors, and I have difficulty in being understood by some other native born Australians. Little 18 year old super market checkout girls who have never been out of inner city suburbs seem to be the ones who mostly think I'm speaking a foreign language. A broad scattering of under 25 year olds, mostly the very elegant ones, both male and female have problems with my accent. Several of my American friends have more than the average difficulty with the way I "murder their language". But if I move 100 or so miles away from the city centre I am universally understood, and I did teach English to new immigrants to Australia for a number of years. Still, to be universally understood by all speakers of the English language is something to be proud of.

[David]

Well gentlemen, while i do appreciate that keris cannot be discussed in a vacuum, i am afraid i have reached that point where i am going to respectfully request that we try to focus our attention away from cigarettes, fast food and personal karma and instead stick to the discussion of keris. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you David, for your patience.

[QuisUtDeus]

Very sorry about going off topic! The beer was talking. This information has been extremely comprehensive. A new post has been made regarding oils, which was my last concern. I will start looking for some better oils immediately.

I've got a decent surface scan of the globe of keris knowledge, now. I can pick a few points of interest and start digging. Tons to go through. Mr. Jean has offerered me a copy of his books on hilts! I'm excited about it!

It is amazing how much knowledge you all have. It seems many of you are engineers. Is weaponry a common hobby with engineers? The uncle I mentioned loves his balisongs and guns. He made me a powerful nunchaku in his backyard. I'm going to give him a lovely keris for a gift.

Out of all the forums I have joined because of my hobbies, the sword forum here is easily the most educated and most able to think in 3rd person. Also, the most courteous! I'll refrain from drinking for any future posts.

Deep thanks to all!
-Tim

[QuisUtDeus]

There is too much to learn here. Give me time to.

Thank you, all.

I may try to rebuild. Building is fun. I am so happy with this first keris. Carving with my uncle will be fun.

Just washing is a chore. There really is a weird green color that won't go away. It sits in the pamor. It changes when I wash. It goes up and down the whole blade. It reappears after minutes of cleaning.

The rust and gunk is gone. The green light won't leave.

I've had many modern blades. Nothing is similar. They had no soul.

This soul extends 2 meters, maybe. A very light soul. Very happy.

I think it was a nasty soul, but I slept with it. "God is Good," is the saying. Until anyone understands that they are God, too, they will triumph.

[David]

Just washing is a chore. There really is a weird green color that won't go away. It sits in the pamor. It changes when I wash. It goes up and down the whole blade. It reappears after minutes of cleaning.
The rust and gunk is gone. The green light won't leave.
Tim, are you using tap water in this washing task. From my experience sometime local tap water supplies have additive in them that can affect the color of your blade after washing. Try using bottled distilled water and see if you still have the same problem.

[QuisUtDeus]

David,

You know, I only drink spring water that is delivered to me by truck from 60 miles away. It seems that the keris should drink what you drink, yourself. I refuse to eat food that is not made with this water. Thank you! I will try this!

I've bought museum quality wax to preserve the blade and found it's a byproduct of petroleum exports. I certainly wouldn't want that for myself. I am terribly fond of sandalwood for my personal soaps and colognes. I will buy this oil and use that instead.

I'he found that disassembling this keris and cleaning it has been a wonderful experience. Caring for the blade personally has given it a good energy. It mirrors the energy back. There is indeed something like a sentience about it.

I want to divest more...but I'll wait awhile to do so.

I've found two interesting books from the Philippines that everyone might find useful. "The Boxer Codex" especially:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/products/boxer-codex-a-modern-spanish-transcription-and-english-translation-of-early-exploration-accounts-of-ancient-east-and-southeast-asia-softbound

It's a book of pre-colonial illustrations of traders in the Philippines. The other book is this:


https://shop.vibalgroup.com/collections/academica-filipina-plus/products/you-shall-be-as-gods-anting-anting-and-the-filipino-quest-for-mystical-power


It describes the supernatural beliefs of modern Filipinos. Spain couldn't destroy the prehistory of the archipelago, even with the Church. America couldn't destroy the prehistory even with the education system. You will see ancient similarities that are fully intact despite globalization that began 400 years ago.

This will be very useful to keris people.

[David]

I've found two interesting books from the Philippines that everyone might find useful. "The Boxer Codex" especially:

https://shop.vibalgroup.com/products/boxer-codex-a-modern-spanish-transcription-and-english-translation-of-early-exploration-accounts-of-ancient-east-and-southeast-asia-softbound

It's a book of pre-colonial illustrations of traders in the Philippines. The other book is this:


https://shop.vibalgroup.com/collections/academica-filipina-plus/products/you-shall-be-as-gods-anting-anting-and-the-filipino-quest-for-mystical-power


It describes the supernatural beliefs of modern Filipinos. Spain couldn't destroy the prehistory of the archipelago, even with the Church. America couldn't destroy the prehistory even with the education system. You will see ancient similarities that are fully intact despite globalization that began 400 years ago.

This will be very useful to keris people.
Tim, when we started this keris forum some years ago it was decided that keris would be the sole subject of this particular corner of EAAF. I would suggest that if you wish to discuss the Philippines and the history surrounding its weaponry that you take such discussion to the main Ethnographic Forum. Thanks. :)

[La Pagaru]

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,

[David]

absolutly this keris is bugis keris,,
I believe that is a distinct possibility. But from where? Bugis is very moveable feast. ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris.

The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok.

However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok.

I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok.

I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this.

For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.

[kronckew]

5=Minute Araldite= 5 min working time clear epoxy, araldite is a brand name. Pick any one that is available in your local area.

[David]

I have no problem with a Bugis influence for this keris.

The sorsoran, especially the indented gandhik and boto adeg blumbangan can be related to South Sulawesi, these features are also attributed to the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago, and the Bugis people occupied Eastern Lombok.

However, I personally do not know of Bugis keris with this very dramatic topographic treatment from South Sulawesi, or from anywhere other than Lombok.

I'd very much like to see examples of Bugis influenced keris that had this style of wilahan and that also had inarguable provenance for somewhere other than Lombok.

I know almost nothing about Bugis keris, I have never carried out research in South Sulawesi, so perhaps this style of keris can be found in South Sulawesi, or even in the Peninsula. But I do not know of examples that can illustrate this.

For me this is most likely a keris from Lombok, but most certainly we can accept Bugis influence.
Alan, does this mean that you are not willing to accept a keris made outside of South Sulawesi as Bugis, only that it might be "Bugis influenced"? As we know, the Bugis people got around and had settlements all about the archipelago. If this keris was made in Lombok, but by a Bugis pande for a Bugis person would it not be fair to say that it might therefore be both from Lombok AND Bugis at the same time? :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually David, I believe I'm saying pretty much the same as you.

The Bugis originate in South Sulawesi.

They went all over the place.

One of the places they went to was Eastern Lombok, they settled there.

After a time Bugis keris made in Lombok sometimes acquired a style that was not seen in keris from other places.

In the case of this particular keris, I am of the opinion that it comes from Lombok, but has Bugis features, as well as other features that are the result of influences other than Bugis.

So it is a Lombok keris with Bugis influence.

There are probably a number of ways in which this idea could be expressed.

To move sideways a little bit. Wherever the Bugis people went, they made keris, but those keris are not identical with the Bugis keris that were made in South Sulawesi. In the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" we can find Bugis keris with stylistic variation that points to varying geographic locations of origin for those keris.

I had a quick flick through this book before I wrote post #60, I could not find any keris with similar deep kruwingan such as this keris has, but there are numerous examples of the indented gandhik, the style that in Solo in the 1980's was regarded by the keris elites as evidence of a keris from the Eastern Islands. At that time in Solo most people seemed to think that the world beyond Bali was remote and savage, so Lombok was lumped in with all the other Eastern Islands.

In "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" this gandhik style that was thought of as "Eastern Islands" by the Solo people, is identified as South Sulawesi.

Then I went to "Keris Lombok", and in this book we can see many examples of extreme topographic sculpting.

There are any number of combinations of words that can be used to classify this keris, but I have chosen "Lombok with Bugis influence". Anybody who does not like this combination of words is perfectly at liberty to choose their own.

[Sajen]

Could it be a Sumbawa blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

When we try to guess at a geographic origin for a keris, we can only rely upon our experience of keris that we know do come from a particular geographic location.

I mean absolutely rely, without question, positively.

I have never handled even one keris that I was absolutely positive came from Sumbawa.

In fact I cannot even remember seeing a photo of even one keris that I knew without any doubt at all came from Sumbawa.

I do believe that there are keris that originated in Sumbawa, and that they look more or less Bugisy. But I cannot remember ever seeing a keris , or a photo of a keris that was identified positively as having been made in Sumbawa.

What I do know, and know without the slightest shadow of a doubt is this:-

Bugis people settled in Eastern Lombok.

Javanese people settled in Lombok, Balinese people settled in Lombok, and in fact people from a number of other locations settled in Lombok, but in smaller numbers than the Javanese, Balinese, and Bugis.

Keris from Lombok sometimes display rather extreme topographic sculpting.

This keris under discussion displays features that are attributable to a Bugis influence. It also displays very aggressive topographic sculpting.

I do not know beyond the shadow of a doubt that this keris definitely originated in Lombok. But I do think that Lombok is a more likely point of origin than any other place I can think of.

[Sajen]

I will post in the next days pictures from a keris I've bought many years ago from a Lombok dealer who stated that he get it from Sumbawa. This blade show some resemblance to the blade in question. But I have only the statement from the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Detlef.

You see, this is our problem:- certainty.

I also have seen & owned keris that were supposedly from Sumbawa, and other places. For many years I dealt with a gentleman in Bali who seemed to come up regularly with unusual forms of keris.

These unusual keris invariably came from places further East, invariably they had been collected by the dealer himself who periodically went island hopping through the Eastern Islands, and invariably they bore prices that I was unwilling to pay.

This gentleman passed away a few years ago, and I have since had conversations with both his wife and his two nieces, who used to work in his shop. According to them he had not been outside of Bali in 30 years.

What I have noticed about keris from the islands East of Lombok is that they seem to be of slightly degraded form and quality, not of a quality of craftsmanship that has risen above the norm, but of one that is struggling to reach the norm. I'm talking here about the Eastern Islands in general, and keris that I have been prepared to believe were actually from the Eastern Islands.

Incidentally, the Bugis who invaded Lombok in the 1600's came from already established colonies in Sumbawa, and there was continuing intercourse between these Sumbawa colonies and the new settlements in Eastern Lombok. Thus, if we wish to affix a Sumbawa origin to any keris blade, this might prove to be quite difficult.

[Sajen]

Here the promised pictures. The blade has as well similar long ada ada, not good to seen on the picture. I've received the keris in bad state, the blade and sarung was restored, the buntut was missing.

[Sajen]

We have bad lighting conditions today, maybe this two pictures are helpful.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Detlef, some similarities, as is to be expected.

However, although we can see that South Sulawesi gandhik, and other characteristics that mark this blade as Bugis, the kruwingan looks to me to extend only as far as the 3/4 luk, it is not deep kruwingan as in Tim's keris, and overall the blade does not have anything like the same deep topographic relief of Tim's blade.

I would say it is related to Tim's blade, but not, let us say, a brother, perhaps a cousin or other slightly removed relative.