Very Nice Nimcha

[CharlesS]

I wanted to share this lovely nimcha with my forum "peeps". It has become one of my very favorite swords even though it far more "blingy" than I usually care for, and generally, I am no fan of enameling. Somehow this one "spoke" to me and I had been looking for this blade type for some time, just didn't expect it to be in so special a "package"

I believe the sword dates to at least the early 19th century, likely even earlier.

The sword features the older style nimcha "cutlass-like" short, curved blade. There is a maker's stamp to the forte. The hilt is heavy silver enameled in dark blue, light blue, and green. You'll note the enameling is considerably cruder than what we might expect to find with Persian and Indian enameled pieces. Every square inch is detailed in some manner. The heavy hilt gives the sword a very nice balance.

The scabbard mounts are en suite with intricate floral motifs highlighted by the enameling. There are four bands of Islamic script along the scabbard fittings.

The baldric is old, but not "born with" the sword, though their colors match perfectly and they look like a natural combination.

Nimchas of this blade type are the most difficult to come by and I dare say, mounted in this manner, even rarer.

Dimensions:
Overall length:32in.
Blade length:25in.
Blade width at the forte: just under one inch
Blade's widest point: 1.75in.

[fernando]

A super piece, Charles ... i'd say. Can you 'macro' that makers stamp ? ... just curious :cool:.

[Kubur]

One of the best Algerian nimcha ever!
I guess the guys of the Maritime museum will be jealous too
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/78504.html
I think that you are righ, I would say 18th c. for sure if not 17thc...

[rickystl]

Hi Charles

While blades are not in my regular sphere of collecting, I must say that is a beautiful nimcha. What a wonderful piece. As they say......Don't think it gets any better than this......Congratulations. What an impressive piece.

Rick

[Panzerraptor]

Whoa! That nimcha just screams grandiloquence! I've never before seen such a weapon of this type draped in such flair! You've really found a superb piece, especially for it being as old as you say it is!

The closest I have is a recently created Saif and Jambiya covered in gold as well. Though it's far from being as magnificent as what you carry. I must ask, where did you get such an impressive weapon?

[TVV]

Charles, this example is sublime, among the best, if not the best nimcha we have seen on this forum. Thank you for sharing!

As far as dating goes, the earliest reliably dated nimcha is one in the Rijksmuseum which belonged to Michiel de Ruyter, which places it in the mid 1600s:

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/NG-NM-10412

Yours should not be much later than that, so perhaps late 17th or early 18th century, at least as far as the blade is concerned. The enameled mounts and the baldric could be later. There are examples of a 19th century enameled Moroccan saif scabbards in the sold section of Oriental Arms:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4522

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3908

I do not know how early the enameling decorating technique made it to Morocco, but my guess is that you have an old 17th or 18th century sword remounted in the 19th century. Whoever did it, preserved the original form of the guard and the hilt. As you can see on the Rijksmueum sword, the original scabbards were made of cloth and leather and these materials tend to deteriorate unless stored in a perfect environment. Obviously it belonged to someone quite prominent, who loved this sword as much as you do. Most of the early nimchas we see are trophies taken during the conflicts between Habsburgs and Ottomans, and it is great tos ee one that appears to have remained in the Maghreb for a little while longer.

What a great sword!

Teodor

[Battara]

Dang it Charles, you just made my eyes pop out and roll on the floor. What's wrong with you! :eek:

[CharlesS]

Gentlemen,

Thanks so much for your kind words and your additional contributions of information and photos!

I knew this one was something special the moment I saw it!

Battara, if you think your eyes were popping out when you saw it here, you should have seen Rsword and me when we first saw it in Baltimore. It was in a gun bag, not to be seen at the show, but we were allowed a glance and as we slowly pulled it out of the bag, we just looked at each other in amazement. The owner originally did not want to sell it but was kind enough to give me a shot at it when they saw my interest.

[Bob A]

Fantastic sword!

I'm surprised you were able to coax the owner into letting it go. Were hostages involved?

[ariel]

Charles, you are outdoing yourself time and time again!
Absolutely gorgeous!


However, I do not think it is North African. IMHO, it is South Arabian, likely Omani. My main point is the configuration of the blade: widening toward the tip. Similar configuration is seen in Elgood’s book on weapons of Arabia ( Fig. 2.1 and by description 2.2). Seems to me it is quite short: thus a genuine “nimcha”:-), a naval cutlass, so popular with seafaring Omanis.

Also, the lavish decoration is very reminiscent of the luxurious Zanzibari nimchas with gold coins on the handle from Buttin’s catalogue ( plate XXX) and Hales’ catalogue ( Figs. 589-90). Similarly “segmented” decor of the scabbard is also seen in the same book ( 2.18 and2.21)

Also, you might recall Elgood’s comment about Bukharans in Oman. They brought enameling there.


I doubt there is an iron-clad provenance, so that’s only my gut feeling.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Charles, you are outdoing yourself time and time again!
Absolutely gorgeous!


However, I do not think it is North African. IMHO, it is South Arabian, likely Omani. My main point is the configuration of the blade: widening toward the tip. Similar configuration is seen in Elgood’s book on weapons of Arabia ( Fig. 2.1 and by description 2.2). Seems to me it is quite short: thus a genuine “nimcha”:-), a naval cutlass, so popular with seafaring Omanis.

Also, the lavish decoration is very reminiscent of the luxurious Zanzibari nimchas with gold coins on the handle from Buttin’s catalogue ( plate XXX) and Hales’ catalogue ( Figs. 589-90). Similarly “segmented” decor of the scabbard is also seen in the same book ( 2.18 and2.21)

Also, you might recall Elgood’s comment about Bukharans in Oman. They brought enameling there.


I doubt there is an iron-clad provenance, so that’s only my gut feeling.


Its not a weapon I have ever seen in Oman. This does however, satisfy the equation of being Algerian . The https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/search?p=1&ps=12&f.hnrCode.section.sort=Special%20Collections&f.hnrCode.hall.sort=0.12%3A%20Wapenkamer&ondisplay=True&st=Objects&ii=0 I Couldn't shrink it in size to fit EAA parameters... but you can see it on the web..The example has a part tortoiseshell hilt although it may well be of the same family . The provenance is in my opinion Algerian... surely it has to be off the coast as it is every inch a corsairs weapon. However having said that I have not got the Hales or Elgood reference work before me.. ~ Regarding coins on Omani or Zanzibari items I take it on those with Ivory hilts and gold work probably added by goldsmiths on the Zanj or even in Stonetown… These are not coins but circular shapes along with leaf shaped designs from the African comb making fraternity; see below..
I doubt if there is such an animal as a Zanzibari Nimcha and to my eye Butin got as close as any expert in his three plates which I placed at an earlier thread but I believe his detail still accurate and on his 3 plates there is no mention of Zanzibar...therefor
please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23387 post 12 and viewing plate XXX 993 994 995 … The project Nimcha is seen as one of those .It may even be on Plate XXX11 991... Shown as an other oriental design.

I must confess I have never seen Bukharen work in Oman...although in the Yemen, yes, for good historical reasons and known links… Further I have no recollection of enameling work here .. Do you mean Yemen also?

[ariel]

I must admit I have never seen luxurious Yemeni nimcha.

Waiting for Lotfy.

[Jim McDougall]

It does seem that these hilts are 'Arab' and mostly associated with Algeria from examples are known as early as 17th c. . In "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (B.Mohammed, ed. 2008, p.77) . In this reference it is noted sabres of this type are seen as early as c.1700 with an Ottoman tughra, and another of this typw was captured at Battle of Oran (Algeria) in 1732.

Elgood (1994)does show one with this type blade (flared tip) in 2.1 but with a karabela type hilt, and another with this type hilt (2.2) same type of blade.
On p.15 Elgood describes the (2.1) type often found in sughs in Riyadh with these 'nimsha' blades and a small brass guard, and that they are attributed by Arab traders to Yemen.
It is noted that these are pretty unaesthetic (I have had these and they are munition grade) with these flared blades.

Whether 'Ottoman' or 'Arab' classifications are considered, these hilts with notable peak at pommel seem to occur throughout the Arab sphere, from Malabar, through the Meditteranean, the Magreb and Zanzibar. With North (1975) attribution they seem aligned with 16th century North Italian styles, and indeed many of these blades are Italian it does seem. As Buttin describes many of these type hilts and swords, always as 'Arab' but no specification of Zanzibar, many of these surely ended up there just as throughout these other regions, but were by no means indigenous there.

I have not been able to find any reference to Bukharen enameling in Yemen, but on p. 75 he does note a janbiyya bought during a pilgrimage in Mecca and was subsequently embellished in Bukhara with cabochon and cloisonné turquoises, but notes it is possible the work may have been done in Mecca.
This may suggest Bukharen artisans may have been in Mecca, but whether in Yemen unclear.
It does seem some nice swords were used in Yemen, mostly Hadhramaut, and other well mounted in San'aa, but certainly nothing like this.

Most definitely one of these very old Arab blades of 'cutlass' form and fantastically refurbished and likely it would seem if 19th c very early perhaps even late 18th. Breathtaking piece!!!

[ArmsAndAntiques]

HI Charles,

I've long followed this wonderful sword and it is certainly in the right home now.

I've also kept this reference in mind for years and this is the right place to include it as a specific example of 17th C. North Africa/Ottoman workmanship. The attached images from a German private collection show a sword with similar enamel work, with a different style grip, but with the classic Mediterranean trade blade, often attributed to Genoa (though I think Mediterranean is the best we can do at this point without specific evidence of an Italian city production).

I would certainly think this sword has little to do with the East African style of sword, lso referred to as a nimcha, and even less with the swords originating from the Southern Arabian peninsula, a (interestingly that is the terminology along the west coast of India as well for a sword indicating the trade routes the word, if not the form traveled on, though there are Hyderabadi hilt forms that are similar to the East African, or rather Indian Ocean style of hilt).

However, the Bukharan enamel connection is definetely a possibility as I've seen this blue and green enamel work on other Ottoman daggers, including on sold by us some years back over gold, see below:

http://armsandantiques.com/beautiful-19th-c-islamic-persian-enameled-and-gold-mounted-khanjar-dagger-id851

And also another found in the Wallace Collection. I think the enamelling is most likely early 18th C. Ottoman workmanship, likely on order depending on where in the Empire, or associated states, it went.

[ArmsAndAntiques]

One final point on dating is that the form of the scabbard and the style of mounting hearkens most closely to the early Ottoman period mounted swords, often with karabela shaped hilts, with the central medallion and band.

In addition, the specific style of decoration with a repetitive decorative pattern, along the scabbard fittings that is similar to Ottoman 17th C. karabelas, and is also found on East European swords of the period as well, which were themselves likely influenced by Ottoman workmanship.

One does not find the central scabbard fitting of this style, on 18th C. or later Ottoman sword generally.

[ArmsAndAntiques]

And finally in reference to an 18th C.dating, the gold yataghan given by the Bey of Tunis to Danish King Frederik V, illustrated in Niels Arthur Andersen's book on "Gold and Coral" provides a further reference for this scabbard style and mounting, though that sword was presented in 1753.

Now in the Danish National Museum (EM60a,EM60b, and EMb61)

[Jim McDougall]

A&A, we crossed posts.....well noted on the Ottoman enameling and styling, and the distinct influence of some of these decorative techniques in Europe, with their fascination with 'Oriental' exotica. There are distinct similarities in these hilts with certain N.Italian hilts of 16th c. with the quillon systems as well as the ring guards seen on the 'nimchas' long held to be 'Zanzibar' examples.

[Edster]

I wonder if a translation of the Arabic script on the bands might provide useful information.

[fernando]

I wonder if a translation of the Arabic script on the bands might provide useful information.
And the stamp on the blade ... remember, Charles ?

[CharlesS]

Fernando,

Here are a couple of pics, but they are very difficult to make out, though the stamp on one side is much clearer than the other.

Let me know if you are able to decipher anything from it.

[fernando]

Charles, my idea was more to show the stamp to members within this type of (Islamic) swords than attempting my self to identify it.
Marks (stamps) are a vital asset; they often open the doors to crack enigmas.
While inscriptions, for as important as they are for the item's record, may fall into 'generic' religious statements, smith (or arsenal) marks may drive you into the actual origin of the piece.
... Just saying :o .

[midelburgo]

Fernando,

Here are a couple of pics, but they are very difficult to make out, though the stamp on one side is much clearer than the other.

Let me know if you are able to decipher anything from it.

It could be a Venetian arsenal winged lion?

What remembers me of this another ¿Nimcha? What do you make out of it?

[Jim McDougall]

The deeply stamped circular cartouche seems a convention which runs typical in Algerian context sabres (which is how Briggs. 1965, terms the probable nimshas in his collection then). In accord with the drawings in his article, "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers", JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, p.37-92......on p.78, he describes two of these 'sabres' as having these as having circular marks containing Arabic characters in illegible combination, but while in this same blade location.....only on one side.

Though he suggests the blades, both with identical three fuller configuration, are either Italian or German and of 16th or 17th c. As one of the blades has ANDREA FERARA, this profoundly suggests Solingen, and likely end of 17th into 18thc. Briggs notes that these markings were probably stamped later, but prior to 'damascening' on the blade.
This further suggests some type of arsenal or acceptance (?) kind of stamp which was apparently placed on these blades (in this blade location) as the blades were received.

In Charles' example (OP) the flared tip blade in my opinion in unlikely to be German, quite likely Italian (as these are comparable to some storta blades I believe) and seems earlier. That suggests this application of these cartouches was in place much earlier than the blades noted in Briggs.
Perhaps it could be some sort of talismanic blessing (?) to the blade, otherwise I would presume the acceptance stamp. In that case there may be some kind of administrative purpose.

[CharlesS]

Is it possible that they are arsenal marks rather than maker's marks??? :shrug: In other words, where they came from or belong vs. who made them. I realize, of course, that often the maker and the arsenal would be the same.

...just an idea.

[Jim McDougall]

Is it possible that they are arsenal marks rather than maker's marks??? :shrug: In other words, where they came from or belong vs. who made them. I realize, of course, that of often the maker and the arsenal would be the same.

...just an idea.


I think we crossed posts Charles. As I indicated in my post just prior to yours, I believe these are likely 'arsenal' or more likely stamps having to do with administrative purpose such as already 'taxed' (?) or accounted for. The Ottomans were keen on these kinds of matters if I understand correctly.

These have nothing to do with makers marks or origins of the blades in my opinion. Makers stamps were at the forte (root) of the blade not in this location as seen on these Algerian received trade blades.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, may i extract a piece of your post to realize you are correcting my (more than) humble approach in that, arsenal marks are not makers marks; sure thing, as so i cared to mention both possibilities in my previous post. In any case, and playing positive, despite an arsenal stamp (stricto sensu) might not define the original blade provenance, it sure tracks the path it traversed to meet final assembly, a bit of info that helps building the sword history. On the other hand, i am perplex at the distinction you seem to make at the discussed stamps being, or not, located in the forte. I fear i don't follow you; both Charles's and Midelburgo's examples have them located in the blade forte; or do you define forte (first strong third) as a different location in the blade ?
All yours :cool:.


.

[Kubur]

Burgo post is very interesting, thank you

Yes you have maker marks, export / import marks and arsenals marks.
This one seems very deep for an arsenal mark, look at Irene arsenal marks they are just engravings... )II(

[Jim McDougall]

Dear Jim, may i extract a piece of your post to realize you are correcting my (more than) humble approach in that, arsenal marks are not makers marks; sure thing, as so i cared to mention both possibilities in my previous post. In any case, and playing positive, despite an arsenal stamp (stricto sensu) might not define the original blade provenance, it sure tracks the path it traversed to meet final assembly, a bit of info that helps construct the sword history. On the other hand, i am perplex at the distinction you seem to make at the discussed stamps being, or not, located in the forte. I fear i don't follow you; both Charles's and Midelburgo's examples have them located in the blade forte; or do you define forte (first strong third) as a different location in the blade ?
All yours :cool:.


.

Fernando, I did not mean my comments, which I admit got a bit complicated, as any kind of correction but just as an observation on my own account.
Arsenal marks are not as you say, usually an origin for a blade, but where it 'arrived' at some point and was either held for and used in furbishing swords.
Very good point in these marks establishing a factor in the blade/sword history.
I think the forte thing is more a matter of my own perception, I always think of the forte as with makers marks, to be located near the center of the blade near the guard, sometimes even under the langet etc.
The block forte is often seen on European blades, and such marks are on this section of the blade.

These circular cartouches are situated unusually near the cutting edge of the blade but indeed in the upper section of the blade near the guard, which may broadly be regarded as part of the forte. Perhaps you are right, defining the forte might be regarded as the upper third of the blade...just always thought of it as the root near the guard.

[ArmsAndAntiques]

I had never seen the Italian connection with the early Nimcha hilts being attributed to an older Italian form, however the example Midelburgo posts shows what is clearly a derivative form of the crabclaw style Italian hilt in it's crossguard. The hilt itself is a variant on the 17th C. or earlier form with the sharp pommel and the flattened sides.

However the crossguard is the first time I've seen this form, and to me proves, or goes some way in doing so, that the cross-pollination between the European forms also extended to other types of hilt shapes and forms,especially at what would have been an early date. However, that isn't surprising considering the many European captured slaves that were forced into service among the Corsairs and Ottoman empire, I can imagine some of them that were forced into combat, or went willingly, would have their favorite forms interpreted through local types.

Excellent find and an important addition to the nimcha formology pantheon.

[Jim McDougall]

I had never seen the Italian connection with the early Nimcha hilts being attributed to an older Italian form, however the example Midelburgo posts shows what is clearly a derivative form of the crabclaw style Italian hilt in it's crossguard. The hilt itself is a variant on the 17th C. or earlier form with the sharp pommel and the flattened sides.

However the crossguard is the first time I've seen this form, and to me proves, or goes some way in doing so, that the cross-pollination between the European forms also extended to other types of hilt shapes and forms,especially at what would have been an early date. However, that isn't surprising considering the many European captured slaves that were forced into service among the Corsairs and Ottoman empire, I can imagine some of them that were forced into combat, or went willingly, would have their favorite forms interpreted through local types.

Excellent find and an important addition to the nimcha formology pantheon.



Well noted, and goes again to the landmark article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword" (1975) by the late Tony North. ….which clearly shows the type of hilts which indeed seems to have set the pace for these Arab hilts.
As also well noted, not only the Algerian corsairs et al, and essentially the Ottomans carried on a monumental commerce in slaving, and yes many did willingly go into their service. There were many cases, and notably some Dutch, along with others who even nominally converted to Islam and became corsairs themselves.
The complexity and scope of all these factors make it hard to determine just when and how these forms cross diffused, but in my view the early Italian forms profoundly influenced many ethnographic forms of edged weapons.

[TVV]

Are we absolutely certain that the crossguard on midelburgo's sword is Italian and not say, Iberian?

[fernando]

... I always think of the forte as with makers marks, to be located near the center of the blade near the guard ... The block forte is often seen on European blades, and such marks are on this section of the blade...These circular cartouches are situated unusually near the cutting edge of the blade but indeed in the upper section of the blade near the guard, which may broadly be regarded as part of the forte. Perhaps you are right, defining the forte might be regarded as the upper third of the blade...just always thought of it as the root near the guard.
Dear Jim, i would not evolve into why different cultures find it more handy to use different spots of the forte area to stamp their marks; if either technical issues ... or aesthetical.
But going etymological and in actual fencing lexicon forte, a term we currently use over here in its full acceptation, comes from the Latin forte=strong, robust... and, for the case, undoubtedly means the strong first third of the sword.
Sorry ... if i am such a drag :o .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Midelburgo in his post above at #22 makes a very interesting comparison and notes the Venetain stamp. :shrug:

The Venetian Winged Lion.

On swords the wear is considerable . Here is one; on the upper hilt of a Venetian Naval Cutlass..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to focus on what and what is not the Forte since I see it has some confusion around it earlier . I think Cutlass style; Falchion and Nimcha etc. particularly the short seaborne weapons, are easily divided up blade wise into the standard package of three parts but on advancing into the realm of Rapiers it is probably another matter ..I wrote a developing guide into blades over on European about blades which I noted;

The Blade. Depending on which sword school we are looking at; could be divided into many more parts than the usual three:

1. The Foible. The part near the blade.
2. The Terzo. The mid section between Foible and Forte.
3. The Forte. The part nearest the hilt.

The Foible (Feeble) is considered the weakest section whilst the strongest is the Forte (Fortified or Strongest).

Some schools especially Rapier divide into as many as 12 parts for refined skewering techniques! whilst 6 or 9 sections is not unusual.

Thus a good excuse to advertise for input and to note the thread is still very much alive please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23169&highlight=blade+description+etymology

[fernando]

No actual confusion has taken place, Peter.
Only a quid pro quo between me and Jim.
No need to complicate things :shrug: .

[Jim McDougall]

No actual confusion has taken place, Peter.
Only a quid pro quo between me and Jim.
No need to complicate things :shrug: .


No complications Fernando, actually what was important was that I considered the unusual position of placement on the blade for this 'whatever it is' stamp. While I thought I was clearly indicating the area of the blade, I inadvertently used the wrong term (a malady my wife assures me happens often in my case).
What I was thinking of was 'ricasso' (and again I am sure we can go into a nomenclature romp on this as well)…...and thinking of the often blockish area of the blade at the base of the guard, typically part of the tang.

As always, grateful for your elucidation, and one of the benefits of always learning here.

Getting back to the dilemma of this circular cartouche which seems to have been somewhat consistently applied to these apparently German blades in Algerian context, the location of the stamp suggests a location in common where it must have been applied. In ethnographic cases, such markings are dismally recorded, if at all, but finding some reference would be wonderfully important. What these marks suggest to me is either an arsenal or some central location/entrepot where these blades were received and mounted for dispersal to various clientele.

Surely such a reference is usually beyond the scope of most studies, but simply acknowledging such presence on a number of blades in this character is a case which will remain awaiting further evidence. As seen by the tenacious members here who bring up threads often many years old, the relentless search never ends.

Thank you Ibrahiim for the nomenclature which well clarifies. The Venetian cartouche with the winged lion is well noted, as Midelburgo brought up earlier, is compelling but I don't think works. I am pretty sure that these Algerian cartouches have some Arabic characters, but as Briggs notes these are typically indiscernible.

[fernando]

No complications Fernando ...
As i said Jim, and you well quoted, i was not addressing you but Peter, to hint him not to widen the scope of our both conversation on the forte issue.
Regarding the purpose of these cartouches, and considering that the sources mentioned are to rely in that their contents is (always) impossible to decode, we would be one step away to realize that they are no more than an arabesque fantasy, and that their use is hardly one of indicating an (any) arsenal or any possible identification, but only object of a symbolic attitude.
In other words, what would be the purpose of a writing that you can't read ?
Mmm ... food for thought.

[Jim McDougall]

As i said Jim, and you well quoted, i was not addressing you but Peter, to hint him not to widen the scope of our both conversation on the forte issue.
Regarding the purpose of these cartouches, and considering that the sources mentioned are to rely in that their contents is (always) impossible to decode, we would be one step away to realize that they are no more than an arabesque fantasy, and that their use is hardly one of indicating an (any) arsenal or any possible identification, but only object of a symbolic attitude.
In other words, what would be the purpose of a writing that you can't read ?
Mmm ... food for thought.


I know, and actually Ibrahiim in awareness that my faux pas on the term was moot in this conversation retrieved a well placed thread of earlier that was focused on sword nomenclature. Having that informative thread, which is now concurrent, will provide material so that anyone interested in the particulars can study them without troubling this thread.

I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting on the cartouches, but I was not implying that these are in any way an 'arabesque' feature . Those kinds of decorative 'attitudes' are reserved usually for European and colonial facsimiles of weapons made in an exotica sense.

The fact that these cartouches seem to be made by a 'stamp' which was produced for some sort of 'official' function would suggest placement on the blade to signify such. These kinds of functions I would think are of the kind carried out by arsenals, or whatever central place the receiving of trade goods/blades might be.

With these stamps, over time they became degenerated and caused slight variation in the characters within. Also poorly placed stamps would cause certain anomalies, factor in degeneration over time with aging in addition.

Though we know that, for example in the Sudanese situation during the Mahdiyya, the 'thuluth' emblazoned acid etched calligraphy was long thought to often be 'jibberish' that illiterate tribesmen would be impressed by. However recent studies have revealed that these are often couplets of verses and phrases, which are sometimes repeated in motif like character rather than properly scribed wording.

Very true, what purpose would illegible wording or characters have? Surely it depends and in situations there are coded and disguised inscriptions, acrostics and other arcane wordings designed for talismanic purposes. These are intended only for recognition by the initiated.

These cartouches I am sure were viably intended for recognition by the proper authorities, but probably, like the 'Passau wolf' and other well known markings probably gained a significance of quality of their own regardless if readable or not. In these cases, the placement in position on the blade would carry that significance as noted.
The fact that certain writers have noted these markings illegible or indecipherable does not mean they were intended that way, but that in their present state, they were not to the writer.

[fernando]

Jim, i would not concur with the impression that, illegible arabesques (jibberish per you) only appear in European or exotica items; on the contrary, when i recall discussions had here in the past over diverse situations.
But i will not intrude any further with side topic considerations; back to the beautiful Charles's Nimcha appreciation :cool:.

[Jim McDougall]

In continuing the examination of the circular markings at 'ricasso' on Charles' magnificent example as well as others presented, I thought perhaps the following might be relevant.


I wanted to add these two exemplars of what I am noting on these stamped cartouche circumstances, and which I think may be somehow connected to arsenal or some sort of arms repository. The first is the page from Briggs, ("European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers", JAAS, Vol. V #2, 1965) and here (p.78-79) he notes on Algerian sabres, "...the ricasso is stamped (in one side only) with a circular mark containing an illegible combination of Arabic letters in high relief".
In the illustration he shows two Algerian blades, the second one with the ANDREA FERARA (which ensures a Solingen origin) and while it does not apparently have the circular cartouche (or it is simply not noted) he does suggest it is of the same origin (see fullers).

The next illustration is from "The Indian Sword" (P. Rawson, 1969) and shows a tulwar from Lahore (based on the hilt), but the blade I believe from probably Rajasthan or further Northwest regions. Note the squared cartouche at the ricasso in similar location to those on the Algerian blades. Here the inscription has characters which may be Arabic, but uncertain.

I had a sword with virtually identical markings in same locations, including the circular at center of blade which appears to be a trisula. In research I was told the inscription in the squared cartouche was Urdu, a lingua francia of Northwest regions which was combined with Arabic or Persian. With the trisula mark, I have seen others with what appears to be a katar instead of the trisula.

I am entering these as examples suggesting that this practice of deeply stamping cartouches at this blade location seems to have been done in Indian areas (with Arabic presence) as well as Algerian. Whether connected or the purpose I cannot say, but the comparison is for further consideration.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, i would not concur with the impression that, illegible arabesques (jibberish per you) only appear in European or exotica items; on the contrary, when i recall discussions had here in the past over diverse situations.
But i will not intrude any further with side topic considerations; back to the beautiful Charles's Nimcha appreciation :cool:.


While I do not wish to detract from the discussion, I think it only fair to point out, quid pro quo. that in my post #38 I did not say that 'illegible arabesques' were 'jibberish' appearing only on European and exotica items.

What I said was that 'arabesque', the term you used, and such 'attitudes' (again your term) were usually reserved for European and exotica items, with no mention of jibberish. The Arabesque term as you know is an art history term describing rhythmic patterns and interlaced foliage, often used to fill empty space or dynamically complete the composition.

When I used the term jibberish it was to describe 'previously held' notions that the thuluth calligraphy on Sudanese Mahdist weapons was jibberish, and noted that recent research found it was in fact tangible verses in repetition. Those instances were I believe the long ago discussions which I recall, as I was one who was inclined to agree in those times. Its amazing how much we learn as we get older and thanks to these kinds of details often shared in discussions here.

In returning to the topic if I may, add some other details I have found that might be of interest on these markings on these Algerian blades . In my notes I found another of these triple fuller blades, but in the location of blade noted......there is a name ZAUOE, spelled out, but in exactly the same location. The registers list this man as a gunmaker in Marseilles 1757-61.
Obviously a Maghrebi name, but in France, and it is notable that gun makers often, even typically, outfitted blades.

In looking at the fantastic array of weapons from Valletta that Teodor shared, in this huge assortment of nimsha, none of them had these markings in that blade quadrant. Could it be that these examples predated the use of such markings? or that perhaps they were never in the regions (Maghrebi littoral or Marseilles?) where such markings were used.
Perhaps rather than makers marks, or arsenal, these were outfitters stamps in one of the entrepots either Meditteranean or Maghrebi.

Just more food for thought, and these considerations I think might be important to the thorough examination of Charles' sword.

[midelburgo]

There are some old hypothesis about nimchas being an evolution of Italian XVth century stortas.

Some circunstancial evidence.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, it is i alone, who doesn't much to offer on this topic.
Concerning the actual difference in nomenclature between 'arabesque' and 'jibberish' ...
I have used arabesque (from the Italian ((also Portuguese))arabesco) as the term i had at hand, as intendedly meaning a decoration detail rather than pure arabic caligraphy. I wouldn't use the term jibberish (propper gibberish) as i gather that this is perhaps more indicative of 'speaking' rapidly and inarticulately, and not 'writing' in such mode. But when i quoted your mentioning the jibberish term, my intention was to attest that we were both meaning the same thing.
But speaking of fine tunings, allow me to remind (in double) the intrinsic distinction between recazzo and forte, such as not underlined in Peter's drawing link.
While the forte defines a determined area (section) of the blade, as in principle its strongest part, the recazo, while circumstantially associated with a inherent location, is a term that refers an added value created in a blade, being a blunt (non edged) zone in which you can grip the blade with your fingers, to better (wrist) handle the sword, acquiring a wider angle for sword combat. So we have that, while blades could/should 'always' include a forte, the recazo is not necessarily a 'ever present' part of the blade, this having being a later 'invention', i guess during the XVI century; according to some, a resource more practicable in Western terms, being more of an esthetical detail in the Orient, when it exists.
Perhaps you knew all this; sorry for the bore.
Take care :cool: .


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The date on this weapons scabbard says 1110 AH which is about 1689AD

AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH is on one line of text...the one nearest the hilt.

The other line I'm not sure about.

:shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Not at all Fernando, this is a most interesting look into these etymologies, and while it has been 'lifetimes' since I fenced, I admit little of this terminology was ever present in my mind :) Still,as we examine blades looking for historical clues, it is important to use correct terms in notations, so my 'faux pas' was unfortunate despite deeper analysis not needed as the correction put things on track.

In retrospect I would retract the word jibberish that I used as well, and used illegible or indecipherable, to explain the notions of some Arabic inscriptions being so. It is a most complex topic, and it seems such intricacies completely get things off center.

Midelburgo, thank you for the note on the stortas, and I have always very much agreed with the late Tony North, that these were certainly instrumental in some degree in the development of these Meditteranean swords. The fact that so many Italian influences are apparent in many ethnographic weapon forms compelled me to get a copy of the huge (and expnsive) Boccia & Coelho "Armi Bianche Italiene", where the evidences can be seen.

Ibrahiim, thank you for that translation!! Very sound evidence that is really helpful as we continue the investigation here. It is really good to get a well based look into these swords which will advance our core knowledge at last. There has been too much incomplete over the years.


.[/QUOTE]

[ariel]

In defence of the " gibberish": some Central European swords have inscriptions in " pseudo-arabic" style. Obviously, they are " legible" but certainly "undecipherable".

[fernando]

Sorry my ignorance Dr. but, if they are legible (lego), they are readable, hence interpretable.
But if they are 'pseudo, it is when they are undecipherable, hence uninterpretable... right ? :o.

[ariel]

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

[Jim McDougall]

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.


Thanks Ariel, 'psuedo' is much better term than 'jibberish', my bad :)
What I was thinking of is the fascination with 'oriental' exotica (which included Eastern, i.e Arabic, Middle Eastern) decoration on weaponry from 17th through 18th in Europe. Naturally the European artisans had little command of the complexities of Islamic calligraphy, so artistically applied simulations of some of the lettering etc. with these kinds of designs on weaponry.

[ALEX]

Charles, you are outdoing yourself time and time again!
Absolutely gorgeous!
...
Also, you might recall Elgood’s comment about Bukharans in Oman. They brought enameling there.
...
I doubt there is an iron-clad provenance, so that’s only my gut feeling.

Charles, I cannot help but say: 'what a sword!!!!!!!" Congratulations!
To elaborate on Ariel's 'gut feeling', here is Bukharan enamel box that displays some similarities in pattern and technique. I think Ariel (and Elgood) comments can be given serious consideration here.

[Kubur]

Charles, I cannot help but say: 'what a sword!!!!!!!" Congratulations!
To elaborate on Ariel's 'gut feeling', here is Bukharan enamel box that displays some similarities in pattern and technique. I think Ariel (and Elgood) comments can be given serious consideration here.

Enamel work was used all over Muslim countries, especially with the Ottomans this is not a Bukharan specificity.

This Central Asian link is a nonsense. As another forum member mentions rightly, this is clearly an Algerian sword (at least it's obvious to me).

[ALEX]

Enamel work was used all over Muslim countries, especially with the Ottomans this is not a Bukharan specificity.

This Central Asian link is a nonsense. As another forum member mentions rightly, this is clearly an Algerian sword (at least it's obvious to me).

Of course this is (north-west) African nimcha, and enamel was certainly used elsewhere (and not only in Muslim countries)... I am surprised you thought this was even an argument :shrug:
The point was in the kind of enamel! There are some known enameled nimchas ( there are a few examples HERE ) (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833&highlight=butin) The enamel is distinctively different in many ways. Considering A&A and Ariel's+Elgood comments, and known Central Asian enamel samples, I suggested the possibility of Charles' nimcha (fittings) being produced by Central Asian master living elsewhere.

[Kubur]

OK OK sorry Alex

Here is the one from the MET :)

[ALEX]

Kubur, this is a nice example. It looks like enamel/champleve work, is it possible to see it closer? Also, is there an attribution or more details on this nimcha?
Looking at details of technique, design and material, it appears to me that enamel on most Moroccan/Algerian fittings is more granular and geometrical, whereas on Charles' example it is made in different style and technique, which makes it quite unusual, and special! As Bukharan enamelers were known to be working in Oman, perhaps similar workshops existed elsewhere, a suggestion we cannot verify now. I look forward to more comparisons and analysis of similar examples.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually if I recall looking into Elgood (1994) there was no mention of Bukharen work in Oman, but he did mention such Central Asian (Bukharan) work in Yemen, as was also pointed out by Ibrahiim. It seems Yemen had far more variations of influential sword mounting and furbishing which include the impressive examples of Hadhramaut, I believe considered part of Yemen. Also in San'aa which I believe as well part of Yemen in kind there were impressive swords mounted.

Again trying to keep to the suggestion of Maghrebi, most likely Algerian provenance for this blade, and likely these mounts, as Algerian, other examples of deeply stamped marks have been found in earlier discussions on a pistol.
As earlier noted these deep stamps may be those of an outfitter rather than a formally recognized arsenal. These places mounted received trade blades for distribution, and similar deeply stamped marks seem to occur in similar blade location near the ricasso in many cases (except obviously the pistol which is on the top of the barrel over the lock, not sure of proper term).

There was I believe a Yemeni classified sword of silverwork mounts with a straight backsword blade again with similar stamp (and location) but with central blade markings of Italian form (three hourglass type stamps).

As well noted by A&A, enameling was practiced throughout Ottoman Empire and the presence and skills of artisans from Central Asian regions and perhaps others would have certainly altered regional characteristics.

Without specific and reliable provenance we would have to turn to the styles, motif and theme of features in hopes of better classification.
Overall, most elements direct to probable Algerian mounting of this remarkable sabre.

Charles just wanted to thank you again for posting this, and giving us all what has become a great exercise in investigating this sword and others of its form.

[ALEX]

Jim,
I believe that more comparative analysis and samples of similarly detailed arms, or other objects made in similar technique, would benefit the research. Beyond mounting, the artistic characteristics and details can point to certain regions, masters and even workshops. I do not recall seeing similar enameled fittings on Maghreb weapons. Are there any? Again, I mean not just enamel, but this particular style of enameling. It is not characteristic of Maghreb in my opinion. Sadly, these details are not considered enough when it comes to arms, and 'artistic' part of research is often lacking, especially when it comes to such non-standard 'impressive' sword, whereas with other non-arms objects, it is a common practice. Perhaps I am over-analyzing. What do you think?

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,
I believe that more comparative analysis and samples of similarly detailed arms, or other objects made in similar technique, would benefit the research. Beyond mounting, the artistic characteristics and details can point to certain regions, masters and even workshops. I do not recall seeing similar enameled fittings on Maghreb weapons. Are there any? Again, I mean not just enamel, but this particular style of enameling. It is not characteristic of Maghreb in my opinion. Sadly, these details are not considered enough when it comes to arms, and 'artistic' part of research is often lacking, especially when it comes to such non-standard 'impressive' sword, whereas with other non-arms objects, it is a common practice. Perhaps I am over-analyzing. What do you think?


Not over analyzing at all Alex, in fact you more eloquently expressed exactly what I was trying to say. I am admittedly not especially adept at analysis of artistic techniques, but have always noted your observations as astute.
\
I think one of the most confounding circumstances is when artisans from other cultures or regions are working in areas outside their own which transposes their indigenous character into other context.

This was the situation which Elgood described concerning Bukharen enamel work in Mecca, but then suggested perhaps the item was removed to Bukhara and decorated there. Considering the diffusion of Bukharen goods and influences, possibly Yemen would be included, we know there were distinct religious connections there from Bukhara as previously discussed.

I completely agree, the artistic values and character in the evaluation of arms decoration is essential in classification of at least the mounts, the blades of course often being another story.
Well noted as always. :)

PS in my previous post I stated Elgood noted Yemen/Bukharen work but meant Mecca as he actually noted.

[Jim McDougall]

To reiterate what Midelburgo posted (#42) regarding the 'old hypothesis' on Italian origins of these nimcha hilts in the Mediterranean, carried forward in Tony North's 1975 article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", I wanted to repost the plate of hilt variants he included.
Attached below are 150-158 from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and all are 'storta' from Venice c. 1480-1490.

In the plate with markings, #150, the first one left top, has these three curious 'twig' markings, which are seen in the next image of the cylindrical Yemeni hilt with straight blade with apparently (heavier) marks on the blade as well as a cartouche near the ricasso. See next image for the caption #150 and followed by the article cover with Yemeni sword.

In the next images from Boccia & Coelho are storta which by the 17th century have gone from somewhat straight blades to the flared falchion type blades. These are not of course identical, but aside from elaborate fullering and added features, the sweeping profile into heavier point for optimum momentum in close quarters is evident.

In the last plate is a blade with four fullers, from Milan c. 1610, which shows makers mark and name in the key location on blade we have been discussing toward those seen on what we believe to be Algerian placed stamps.

I hope these plates might add to the detail here in our discussion which will show that evidence for Italian origins for these Mediterranean sabres from 15th century hilts is compelling. The strong influence of Venice and Genoa in North Africa and other ports of call throughout the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean, Southern Arabia seems profound.

* THE STORTA PLATE I INTENDED FIRST APPARENTLY DID NOT OPEN BUT LINKED BELOW , SORRY.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is a Nimcha not usually attributed to Somalia but it gives notice that these swords were all over the Zanzibar regional Hub and because that part of Somalia was a key regional trade player it is not surprising that such a weapon should appear. Naturally with pictures it is advisable to be cautious since what defines a nationally used sword or is it a photographers prop?

The hilt is clearly saying Nimcha ...and looks similar to Yemeni and Saudia variants although it rings a certain bell in the pommel top since the clear link to Bilao weapons of Somalia is there...in the three prong format...and it suggests an influence upon other Nimcha particularly Saudia style … perhaps giving the direction of influence...
At least we have here a potential spread through trade of this Greater Indian Ocean style or as Buttin probably coined them Arabian.
The picture describes the Somalian gentleman as being of VIP status..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Majeerteen Sultanate From where the above picture was taken...located in the horn of Africa...below..The town marked in red is Alula on the coast.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS A COUNTRY CALLED THIS ..:shrug:

Trading vessels had to virtually skirt around it as it was The Horn of Africa ..From Wikepedia I quote;

The Majeerteen Sultanate (Somali: Suldanadda Majeerteen, Arabic: سلطنة مجرتين‎), also known as Majeerteenia and Migiurtinia, was a Somali kingdom centered in the Horn of Africa. Ruled by Boqor Osman Mahamuud during its golden age, the sultanate controlled much of northern and central Somalia in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The polity had all of the organs of an integrated modern state and maintained a robust trading network. It also entered into treaties with foreign powers and exerted strong centralized authority on the domestic front. Much of the Sultanate's former domain is today coextensive with the autonomous Puntland region in northeastern Somalia.

Regarding the weapons here is the Saudia silvered hilt Nimcha and the Billao Somali hilt which was a swordhilt or also on a dagger... plus the Yemeni looking version with prongs and probably a result of trade to or from this very important region...particularly in the 19th C and early 20thC. as per the heavy print above.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent examples of the South Arabian (Yemen/Hadhramaut) styling and of course the variation of the hilt, yet with the distinguishing 'hand nock' on the inside of the grip which seems to ideally denote 'nimcha'.

While obviously we are deviating from Charles' sword in the original post in degree, it is interesting to examine the spectrum of styling in these Mediterranean swords which are typically associated with Algeria.

The development of the form from 15th century Italian hilt styles, and blades evolving as well from Italian stortas and European falchions also provides dimension in understanding the dynamics and context in which Charles outstanding example originated and clearly held importance.

I think this Somali connected topic as well as others which have come up in examining Charles' nimcha are well worthy of their own threads to be discussed further. I never had heard of this Somalian kingdom either! but its fascinating to see the world this nimcha lived in !!! :)

[qusko]

Hi,

What do you think about the attached saber?
Seems that it may come from Algeria, or Yemen... for me it looks like more from Yemen (hilt type) based on other posts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15790
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

Blade is polished and was engraved (not much has survived).
Blade quality seems to be good. Maybe older than hilt and scabbard..

Would appreciate more information about the origin/age

[TVV]

Thank you for sharing qusko. Yes, I agree with you that this is an older European blade that was originally mounted on an Algerian nimcha that was later remounted in Yemen.

[Jim McDougall]

This blade does seem like those seen in 'Mediterranean' swords which seem like the flared tip curved types (as mentioned in Elgood, as well as "Arts of the Muslim Knight", which I do not have on hand).

I am not sure this blade would be European with the spines in the blade back (at least in those I am familiar with), and while European hatchet point blades (incl British M1796) have radiused points, the flare and curve are not this dramatic. Whatever the case, this example has a resemblance to the example attached.
Question: the turquoise and coral decoration does seem popular in Algeria, did Yemeni armorers use this affectation as well? The mounts do seem Yemeni.

[A.alnakkas]

Hi,

What do you think about the attached saber?
Seems that it may come from Algeria, or Yemen... for me it looks like more from Yemen (hilt type) based on other posts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15790
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

Blade is polished and was engraved (not much has survived).
Blade quality seems to be good. Maybe older than hilt and scabbard..

Would appreciate more information about the origin/age

Mounts are definitely Yemeni work. Those blades, including on nimchas, seem to have been present in Yemen in large numbers and can come on a variety of swords including 'karabelas' and other types.

[qusko]

Question: the turquoise and coral decoration does seem popular in Algeria, did Yemeni armorers use this affectation as well? The mounts do seem Yemeni.

Jim,
Not sure about coral and turquoise, but there is also decoration in red stones (carnelian). I've found Gusbi Jambiya from Yemen with similar decoration.

https://oriental-arms.com/product/tribal-bedouin-gusbi-jambiya-dagger-from-hadhramaut/

[qusko]

Those blades, including on nimchas, seem to have been present in Yemen in large numbers and can come on a variety of swords including 'karabelas' and other types.

Seems blade can be from XVII.
Do you have any suggestions about hilt/scabbard age? - XIX, earlier?

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,
Not sure about coral and turquoise, but there is also decoration in red stones (carnelian). I've found Gusbi Jambiya from Yemen with similar decoration.

https://oriental-arms.com/product/tribal-bedouin-gusbi-jambiya-dagger-from-hadhramaut/


Thank you for the response Qusko! I had forgotten about those,and this really is an attractive saber, I like this type decoration.

[A.alnakkas]

Seems blade can be from XVII.
Do you have any suggestions about hilt/scabbard age? - XIX, earlier?

I've seen similar work that looks like its made yesterday. I think its 20th century, and leaning more towards the other half.

[TVV]

I am not sure this blade would be European with the spines in the blade back (at least in those I am familiar with), and while European hatchet point blades (incl British M1796) have radiused points, the flare and curve are not this dramatic.

Jim, you are bringing up some interesting questions. I have three blades that could be classified as nimchas, and while they have different hilts from Morocco, Algeria and Yemen there are some similarities in the blades. I took some quick pictures. All three blades have a spine with a groove. The two larger blades also have European marks or copies thereof. I suspect that they are therefore at the very least copies of European blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, you are bringing up some interesting questions. I have three blades that could be classified as nimchas, and while they have different hilts from Morocco, Algeria and Yemen there are some similarities in the blades. I took some quick pictures. All three blades have a spine with a groove. The two larger blades also have European marks or copies thereof. I suspect that they are therefore at the very least copies of European blades.

Teodor, you have in kind brought up interesting perspective with these fascinating examples. When I noted 'European' blades, I had not thought of Styrian or for that matter Italian blades, which the one in the center resembles (the center one looks like a storta type).
The top one with remarkably flared blade, Yemeni hilt, brings to mind the fanciful European term 'scimitar', and if it has a European mark it seems likely copied.

[TVV]

The Yemeni hilted nimcha has no markings. This type of blade, with a large yelman seems to have been quite popular with Barbary pirates. The Grand Master's Palace Armory in Malta has a collection of swords taken from Barbary pirates and many of them have similar blades. I suspect at least a portion of them were made in Europe.

[Gavin Nugent]

. I suspect at least a portion of them were made in Europe.

An interesting subject. There were sword blade of similar size and style also seen in Ethiopia, they were however dressed in their traditional hilts and sheaths. I think I may still have one here of British manufacture.