Unusual nimcha blade: need help

[ariel]

Here is a run-of-the-mill Moroccan Nimcha.
One unusual thing about it is its blade.
As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.
This one has straight blade with large false edge. Also, locally-made blades have 3 narrow fullers. This one has 7.
The fullering and the false edge ( and, to a much less degree, straight construction) are very different from the usual local pattern. No markings to claim European origin.

Is this a more sophisticated local production?
Or, trade European blade with no markings?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
The number of fullers seem to be very big, but what about the ricasso?
As you know I do know very little about these swords.
Jens

[fernando]

How about a close up of the blade far to the right, where the fullers converge.

[Kubur]

As a rule, Nimchas carry curved saber blade, and the majority I have encountered thus far are European trade examples.


Hi Ariel
I've seen many straight blades on nimchas, it's not uncommon,
most of the time old imported blades
But I can't say nothing about this blade.
Kubur

[ariel]

Here is the distal part of the blade with converging fullers.
I checked all my Arabian swords, including 2 Nimchas from Morocco: none of them have a ricasso, including trade European blades.

[TVV]

Ariel, glad you acquired this sword and thank you for sharing it here for discussion. From what I remember from the auction pictures you have also done an excellent job cleaning it. I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering.

Teodor

[fernando]

... I wonder if the blade could be Indian due to the ricasso and the uneven fullering...
That's what i was daring to guess ... on an uneducated basis, though.

[Kubur]

Me too, Indian is reasonnable.
Now the question is do you think that the blade was added by a collector recently or in Morocco in the 18th 19th c.?
I'm very suspicious about an Indian blade on a Moroccan nimcha...

[ariel]

Guys,
Ricasso serves as a differentiating sign only between Indian and Persian Shamshir blades. Many European blades had ricasso and I wonder whether Indians not borrowed the idea of a ricasso from Europe.
I will have to look at my Indian straight- bladed ones.
Thanks to Jens for his gentle hint.
Fernando, did the converging fullers help you?
TVV, the cleaning job has just begun:-) Its wooden handle is dirty, dry and cracked, and has a lot of nasty thin splinters and worm holes. I will have to polish it, otherwise I would not be able to hold it without thick gloves. Then the natural wood color will disappear. Would staining it ( say, dark mahogany) be appropriate? Also, would filling the holes with stainable filler be OK?

[ariel]

Kubur,
No worry here about recent manipulations. It is all as original, as the moment it was created.

But I share your doubt about the Indian origin of the blade. I tend to think it is one of the multiple trade European ones and that is exactly why I posted it here.

[fernando]

...Fernando, did the converging fullers help you? ...
As i said, just an un-educated guess. One based on sight of some Indian fullering fashion, as seen, for one, in page 105 of Jorge Caravana collection catalogue (Rites of Power), which i assume you have a copy. But probably this is the wrong issue.


-

[ariel]

Yes, I do. I even have an identical one:-)
But this is a Tanjore katar commonly attributable to 16 century with a triangular form. One cannot have any other fullering.
We are talking about later swords, don’t we?

Any similar sword examples from 18-9 century?

I am not trying to be stubborn, just want to get to the bottom of it if possible.
I asked an acquaintance of mine who is very good in European swords, but he couldn’t place it.

Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum?

[fernando]

...Could the moderator create a link to the European section of this Forum? ...
It may be copied, yes.

[thinreadline]

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .

[fernando]

Here is one of my Indian swords with a similar multi fullered straight blade .
They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

[thinreadline]

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?

I couldnt really say ...

[ausjulius]

They looks like being made with a different technique (tool). While yours are the smooth type the ones in Ariel's sword are sharper ... right ?
they are all made by the same tool a fullering plane.
just on the indian one looks like its be polished to a more rounded surface once fullered.

[fernando]

they are all made by the same tool a fullering plane.
just on the indian one looks like its be polished to a more rounded surface once fullered.
Oh i see; thank you for that :cool:.

[ariel]

Indian and especially Arabian are of a uniform width. Mine are more complex: wide-narrow etc. That , together with a well formed false edge, was the feature to tilt me toward a European source. Ricasso is a well-known feature of Indian blades, but I can’t recall it on locally made N. African ones.

As I suspected, a little but perplexing mystery:-)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
I think I see 5 fullers on one side of your sword and 7 on
the other side, is that correct?
Are the fullers on your sword as even as the ones shown on thinredlines sword? It looks as if the fullers are not as straight.
Could the blade have been made of Indian ingots?
Indian ingots were sold to Arabia where blades were made, and exported to India.
Could the blade have been made somewhere in Arabia, 'copying' an European blade, ment for the Indian market - but sold to Morocco?

[ariel]

No, 7 on each side. All very straight and in the same order.
As to the "travel" from an ingot to the final place of sale, - anything is possible.

Just all my Indian and especially Arabian blades have fullers that are not as straight and even as this one.

I told you, guys, it is confusing.....

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's Jodhpur booke, vol. I, pp. 218-219, he shows an almost straight Indian blade (kirich/kirach) with four fullers.
Maybe your blade is Indian.

[ariel]

Yes.
And p.200: even with a false edge.
But how on Earth did it get to North Africa?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dont know, but I see one possibility. When the caravans from north Africa aand Arabia were returning from India, they needed to bring back items for trade, so maybe the blade was part of such items.

[Kubur]

Ariel, a small treat for you, another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade

[ariel]

I hear you, guys.
But then p.198 in Elgood vol.1: virtually identical one unhesitantly attributed to Europe.

Can we reliably distinguish genuine European multifullered trade blades from their Indian copies?
Other than in cases of obvious European inscriptions?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Must certainly not from pictures, and even if you have the blade in the hand, I doubt that you can be certain, as some of the Indian smiths were very good when it came to copying blades.

[Kubur]

Well, let me add that the sword that I posted has a Caucasian blade with an inscription of Tippu Sultan from Mysore.
What a complicated story...

:)

[ariel]

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

[Kubur]

You must be joking:-)
Any real evidence?

http://www.tessier-sarrou.com/html/fiche.jsp?id=3884216&np=4&lng=fr&npp=20&ordre=&aff=1&r=

Its good enough to me!

:)

[fernando]

... another sword from North Africa with an Indian blade
North African style yes but, the blade travelling from the Caucasus to Mysore; where would have the hilt been made ? Has this sword ever seen Africa ? ;) :confused:.

[ariel]

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

[ariel]

I started to add some unprintable vocabulary, but caught myself in time:-)

[Kubur]

My hat is off to the owner of the French auction house: he managed to weave a tale fancy enough to suck out €5000 ( plus, I gather, no less than 20% commission) out of some gullible schmuck.

Did he also have for sale Brooklyn Bridge with a graffiti “ Tipy ( sic!) Sultan lives matter”?

Well it doesn't look like a fake at all... and why???

Plus the funny thing is that your sword is just supporting the provenance of the sword that I posted...

But if I follow your opinion then we come back to my first post, your sword might be a fake with a nimcha hilt and an Indian blade, both are easy to find for collectors...

I think you have to chose between: all fakes or both examples supporting each other...


:shrug:

[TVV]

I did not interpret Ariel's post to suggest the ivory hilted sword is not a genuine antique. I cannot speak for him, but it sounded like he doubted the Caucasus attribution. Personally, to me an Indian blade sounds more plausible - we know the Indians could produce excellent quality blades that looked indistinguishable from European blades, and if the sword was indeed collected in Mysore, that would seem a lot more plausible.
:shrug:

[ariel]

Theodor,

You hit the nail on the head: of course neither of the 2 nimchas is a “fake”. The blade on the French one is not Caucasian, that is as much as one can figure out from a single pic. And, BTW, doesn’t its handle look South Arabian rather than Moroccan?
The question is exactly as you say: is the blade a genuine European trade one or an outstanding Indian copy of it?
Somehow, I have never asked this question and never even thought about it.
Will be glad to get some hints.

[TVV]

Ariel,

Good question on the hilt. Assuming the blade is Indian and the whole sword collected in Mysore, it would be tempting to think it could be from Southern Arabia. However, I am afraid it is Algerian. Compare to pictures of a sword in the Rijksmuseum captured by the Dutch captain Michiel de Ruyter in the second half of the 17th century in terms of shape of hilt and guard. There is a whole group of these nimchas with tortoise shell on the hilt and brass guards in museum and private collections. The Bashir Mohammad book mentions that several were collected as trophies by the Spanish in 1732 following the siege of Oran and taken to the Real Armeria, and so this hilt is clearly of Maghrebi origin.

I am not sure why the auction house described the blade as made in the Caucasus. However, given that this type of nimcha hilt was in fashion during the century preceding Tipu's rule, it is actually possible for one to have traveled all the way to Mysore.

Teodor

[ariel]

Theodor,
My reference to South Arabia was based on Robert Hales’ book.
He shows a whole bunch of Omani nimchas with nearly identical IVORY handles, likely made in Zanzibar, Pemba etc. ( pp. 237-239).

I think that a more realistic scenario for the French sword would be just an Indian trade blade mounted in Oman on a locally-made handle. At least we know that Omanis traded with India extensively and even owned a part of Baluchistan. A picture of the cartouche shows what seems to look like Indian crystalline Wootz.

The circuitous route “ Caucasus- Mysore-Morocco” is far too complex for the Occam’s rule. Moreover, the Caucasus point is plainly wrong, and the Mysore one is based on just a misspelled name Tipy( sic!).

[TVV]

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

[Kubur]

Ariel,

To me the swords from Hales book, which we have seen used in the Comoros, are different in terms of shape, decoration and guard, and I suspect at least a century later. A better comparison from Hales would be #584. For what it is worth, the material on the hilt in question looks like walrus as opposed to elephant ivory on the Eastern African ones.

Teodor

Of course Teodor you're right, plus we have around 1000 posts about this topic...

[ariel]

Teodor,

Both of us are handicapped by the quality of picture, but no matter how carefully I looked, I could not see the heterogeneous structure of the walrus ivory. Looks old, dried and randomly cracked elephant ivory to me. Regretfully, none of us here can hold it in our hands and make an informed opinion.

You are completely correct on one point: the handguard. All Omani ones ( that I know) were iron, whereas Moroccan ones were made of brass or iron, and were less massive. Just like the French one. On the other hand, Moroccan ones had their handled made out of wood, horn or ( the luxurious ones) turtle shell. I cannot recall any utililizing ivory. Do you know of any?

I looked at your example from Hales' book. True enough. But the older and higher-class Moroccan have the same configuration as the Omani examples, including the protruding " comb" on the back surface of the pommel, whereas the low-end handles from both localities were all wooden and without it.

I think that without well-documented and fully reliable provenance we might have major difficulties attributing the French one. And with rather active trade connections around the Islamic areal, we just cannot be sure.
One thing we know: the attribution and the provenance by the dealer are totally unreliable; the Caucasian part of it is plainly wrong, and the Mysore part of it is based on a misspelled name of Tipoo and nothing else.

In short, a typical conundrum familiar to all collectors of Oriental weapons....


As an aside: Elgood in his recent book demonstrates quite a lot of blades from the Jodhpur Armory marked with illustrious Rajput names. All is well until he dryly mentions that the names were added by the order of the first director of the Jodhpur museum:-))

[TVV]

Ivory on Maghrebi nimcha hilts is indeed rare. In my pictures archive I found one that is currently exhibited in a museum in Israel. There is another one which is currently for sale, so I cannot post it, but a basic google search would probably produce it. Both are elephant ivory and not walrus ivory like the French sword (it looks like walrus to me, and I could be wrong).

Anyway, we have diverged quite a bit from your sword, and yours has a hilt that is Moroccan without a doubt.

[ariel]

Well, the French one was once sold at Bonhams.
They attributed it ( tentatively) to Oman

[ariel]

Whereas Hermann Historica sold it as Moroccan...

Who are we to believe?


https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/african_art_-_arms/nimcha/l/31000

[Kubur]

None of them because it's Algerian.
And Teodor is right it's walrus...

:) :)

[ariel]

Yes, now I am certain that Teodor is right: it is walrus ivory as attested by Bonhams and Hermann Historica appraisers who had an opportunity to actually hold it. Both Teodor and myself, not being able to do so, were cautious and admitted the possibility of error. But, yes: Teodor was able to see something that I did not and I freely admit that he was correct.

As to the origin of the hilt: professional appraisers with ample opportunities to consult real specialists attributed it to Morocco or Oman. You needed just a brief look at a picture to dismiss their opinions and unhesitantly pronounce the hilt Algerian.

Isn’t it a bit presumptious on your part?

[TVV]

When it comes to the hilt, if you trace out the contours of the grip and the guard, the closest match in terms of pure shape is the group of nimchas that usually have a hilt with tortoise shell and metal. From what I have read, the Algerian attribution is based on 4 swords in the Real Armeria that were taken as trophies in 1732 during the siege of Oran. Similar swords may have been used along the entire Barbary Coast, but we know for sure that they were definitely in use in what is nowadays Algeria in the early 18th century. Hence why earlier in this thread I posted an opinion that the walrus hilt is most likely of Algerian origin.

The further back we go in time, the less we know with absolute certainty. The same applies to auction house appraisers, museum curators and authors. We all examine the available information, compare examples, and then form an opinion. The conclusions we reach are not always right, often because we simply do not know enough. But I believe we all like the mystery aspect or else we would be collecting regular military patterns and not ethnographic arms that are all more or less unique creations.

I honestly am still not entirely sure what to make of this sword. It is certainly very interesting - the hilt is of an old form, but from an unusual material (for the type, otherwise walrus ivory was quite popular in the Ottoman Empire), the blade attached to the hilt by what appears like a sandwich construction at the base, so almost certainly not original to the hilt, and then with an inscription that may or may not have anything to do with Tipu Sultan of Mysore. On top of that, it appears to have traded hands at auction quite a few times lately. I see why Kubur chose to post it here - it has a straight multi-fullered blade on a hilt that is most likely from the Maghreb, but I do not think the two swords have all that much in common.

Sooner or later, there will be a sword posted online with a blade similar to yours in terms of the shape and fullering, and when that happens, hopefully whoever notices it will remember this thread and will post it here.

[ariel]

You are right : we diverged ( but isn’t it a nice aspect of a free discussion?).
To summarize the certainties: the hilt on mine is Moroccan and a structurally similar blade on the “auction” one is Indian as suggested by wootz.
The rest is still a mystery.
Well, in another 10 or 20 years we may finally learn something new to figure it all out.
Till then let’s keep an open mind, cheerful disposition and positive attitude:-)