Is this a common Arab Saif ?

[fernando]

I have travelled a couple hundred Kilometers to convince a guy to sell me a basket hilt sword from his collection and came back with this item, instead; not even my collecting area. I know it doesn't make sense but ... i found it appealing :shrug:.
So far as i have read this is a South Arabian Saif, hoping it has some age, like mid 19th century ?. Handle and scabbard in silver, fully decorated. The one fullered slightly curved blade is rather strong, with its 39 mm. width, 6 mm. thickness and 69 cm. length.
The langets are a bit twisted (more one than the other) but i will have the local silver smith to straight them up.
Would you Gentlemen care to add your comments on this sword ?

.

[Sajen]

Hello Fernando,

is the blade chromed? Not the area of my collecting but a very nice sword. It would be a mess when the blade is indeed chromed! :o

Regards,
Detlef

[TVV]

Very nice saif from Southern Yemen. Elgood shows a few swords like this on pages 13 & 14 of his book on Arab arms, and Hales shows some on p.245, including a picture of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue with such swords. Both authors express a belief that these swords were actually manufactured in Hyderabad for the Yemen market.

What intrigues me about these saifs is the hilt, which has a grip that resembles the Omani/Zanzibari nimcha, but with an Ottoman influenced crossguard instead of multiple branching quillons.

[kahnjar1]

Very nice sword Fernando. I always wanted one of these when I was collecting Omani stuff.
Stu

[Kubur]

Fernando you're a lucky man, this sword is superb.
Teodor is right and provided the good references.
But I don't think that these swords are from India but from Yemen.
They might have been used in India but not produced in India...
Fernando are you sure that you didn't buy the one from the Royal armouries?
Its almost the same and dated from 1771-1799...
:D

[TVV]

Very nice sword Teodor. I always wanted one of these when I was collecting Omani stuff.
Stu


Stu, congratulations should go to Fernando, not me. I have one of these, but it is significantly inferior and does not belong in this thread with Fernando's excellent example.
Teodor

[ariel]

Anything belongs here!

There was a wide range of the “ luxuriousness” and this one indeed belongs to the upper 10%.

But IMHO we should all be enriched by seeing the whole gamut.

I have one from the same family, but it is too late to photograph it. Later, OK?

[kahnjar1]

Stu, congratulations should go to Fernando, not me. I have one of these, but it is significantly inferior and does not belong in this thread with Fernando's excellent example.
Teodor
Sorry Teodor. You are of course correct. Just old age creeping up and the brain goes sideways as a result. I have corrected my previous post.
So you have one of these also?......................

[TVV]

OK then, here is my rather mundane example.

[fernando]

Thank you all Gentlemen for your input,

And, by entry order ...

... is the blade chromed? Not the area of my collecting but a very nice sword. It would be a mess when the blade is indeed chromed! :o ...
Not chromed Detlef, only polished ... possibly with a power tool.


... Very nice saif from Southern Yemen. Elgood shows a few swords like this on pages 13 & 14 of his book on Arab arms, and Hales shows some on p.245, including a picture of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue with such swords. Both authors express a belief that these swords were actually manufactured in Hyderabad for the Yemen market.
What intrigues me about these saifs is the hilt, which has a grip that resembles the Omani/Zanzibari nimcha, but with an Ottoman influenced crossguard instead of multiple branching quillons....
Thank you Teodor; i am learning. I don't have those books; my only Elgood is on firearms. When i kew this was called a saif, i went on my Tirri and saw something of the kind in page 99. Oh, but i wish i had the pictures you mention from Elgood and Hales, specilly the one with the Sultan of Lahej.
Ah, the hilt top resembling the nimcha, Omani Zanzibar and, don't forget, Moroccan; the riddle of the egg and the hen, right ? Bu the way Teodor, can you quote futher paragraphs from those authors on the Hyderabad origin subject ?.

Fernando you're a lucky man, this sword is superb.
Teodor is right and provided the good references.
But I don't think that these swords are from India but from Yemen.
They might have been used in India but not produced in India...
Fernando are you sure that you didn't buy the one from the Royal armouries?
Its almost the same and dated from 1771-1799....
Well, i was not expecting my example was as old as that in the Royal Armouries, but i will be most pleased that it dates as from the 19th century... :cool:

... There was a wide range of the “ luxuriousness” and this one indeed belongs to the upper 10%.
But IMHO we should all be enriched by seeing the whole gamut.
I have one from the same family, but it is too late to photograph it. Later, OK?...
Thanks much for the grading Ariel. I can't wait to see your family branch :cool:.

Sorry Teodor. You are of course correct. Just old age creeping up and the brain goes sideways as a result...
Ah, the usual excuse, Stu; getting old and all that jazz; just don't let them brains fall down :rolleyes: :eek: .

[TVV]

Fernando, here is a short summary of what Elgood writes on these, He starts by stating that a lot of Arab swords loosely described as "nimsha" and "saif" get attributed to Yemen as so little is actually known about swords from the area, that most authors feel safe with that attribution on the basis that it is unlikely to be challenged. There are almost no sources before the 19th century describing Yemeni swords. When it comes to the type of sword like yours, it was initially attributed to Yemen by Charles Buttin. In the early 20th century the attribution was confirmed by Moser and Egerton based on what they were told by locals. Elgood then goes on to reference a photograph of a certain warrior from the Aden protectorate with such a sword, and then states that many warriors from Southern Yemen served as mercenaries in Hyderabad and "the swords are certainly made there and locally", there meaning Hyderabad. According to Elgood the motifs on the scabbard are Indian in style, not Yemeni. He also posts a picture of a fine sword that was a gift to George V in 1911 from the Sultan of Shihr and Mukalla. The sword is attributed to the 18th century, though Elgood has strong doubts it was actually made for the occasion.

Hales, given the nature of his book, is not nearly as expansive in his text as Elgood. He shows the afore mentioned photo of the Sultan of Lahej and his retinue and three similar swords in their scabbards. Hales simply notes that the design and workmanship resembles jewelry from Hyderabad and points to strong historic links between Yemen and India.

Regards,
Teodor

[fernando]

Great input, Teodor: thanks a lot :cool:.
It is always interesting (and challenging) to check on the difference between assuming the provenance of things as being an inequivocal fact, versus their transcontinental influence carried by those who travelled among nations for whatever reasons.
It is fascinating to realize that, this type of Saif would be Arab by culture, Yemenite by nationality, Moroccan (Zanzibarian) in its grip shape, its scabbard decoration styled (and even originated) in India, as could also so be the blade style ... and even forging.
Interestingly the historic Yemenite Jews (Temani), famous silver smiths, that we know used to make weapons scabbards, are not called by authors to this saga.

Let those with more knowledge, and willing, correct the (my) assumptions misplaced above :o .

[TVV]

Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well.

Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern.

[fernando]

Thank you for the excelent points, Teodor :cool: .

[Kubur]

Based on existing photographic evidence, I think it is fairly safe to attribute these swords to Southern Yemen. As for where the scabbards were manufactured, I will defer this to other form members - we have experts in Indian arms and their decorative art. As you point out, there were certainly enough highly skilled silversmiths in Yemen during the 19th century, who produced beautiful jambiya scabbards and various jewelry, and who certainly had the ability to produced sword scabbards as well.


Pffff I feel better now
:)
Fernando scabbard has some similarities with other Yemeni scabbards.
And if you look closer you'll see a consistency between hilts and scabbards...

[Kubur]

Interestingly enough, Elgood does not mention much about the blades and their origin. They are invariably slightly curved, with a single fuller and relatively short. Unlike Maghrebi or Zanzibari/Omani nimcha hilted swords, which have a wide variety of blade shapes and lengths, these seem to follow a pattern.

Should I comment this blade?

A last point I think that Fernando blade is chromed not polished, but i don't see any problem with that.

[TVV]

We probably should, starting with the question - do you think the blade is original to the mounts? We know there were a lot of Ethiopian swords imported in Yemen for the rhino horn hilts, with the blades then mounted with a variety of hilts and re-sold.

[Kubur]

We probably should, starting with the question - do you think the blade is original to the mounts? We know there were a lot of Ethiopian swords imported in Yemen for the rhino horn hilts, with the blades then mounted with a variety of hilts and re-sold.

That's the whole point Theodor, an Ethiopian blade on a Yemeni Sword...
I'm very happy with that...

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think you have bought extra-piece of its kind Fernando. Congratulations.
I hope I may add picture of the similar sword I bought years ago from Artzi, to your thread. I think my blade was made in Arab country - there is some mark like "V" on it. Unfortunately I have only old photos on flash disc with me (on the top of it in a group with another sabres, - I can make another pictures/closeups - but in July earliest).
I think your blade is not chromed. Could possibly be nickeled. (But maybe also only highly polished.)

[fernando]

I am extremely pleased i was not counting with such contribution from all of you Gentlemen.
May i add that:
I understand when Kubur says that there is a consistency between (the decoration of) hilts and scabbards.
And may i say that, definitely the blade is not chromed or nickled, but highly polished. I take it that my jeweler friend and the silver smith we went to straighten up the hilt langet would have noticed that. The first confirmed this morning that the blade is polished and the second has discussed with me the methods to "unpolish" it ...not to "unchrome" it.


.

[fernando]

Thank you for your kind words, Martin. What a nice set of swords you got there :cool: .

[Martin Lubojacky]

Fernando, I would also be interested in some good "unpolishing methods". Maybe fine pemza powder mixed with oil or water ?

[Tatyana Dianova]

Fernando: it is not a common Arabian Saif, but one of the best Saifs I have ever seen! A great sword, congratulations!
I would like to add my humble example to the thread since this thread shows many reference examples. What makes it specially interesting is a blade with yelman.
You may try for "unpolishing" a very fine sandpaper with 2000 grit or a 0000 steel wool.

[fernando]

Thank you for your kind words and the pictures of your excelent example, Tatiana.
Thank you also for the unpolishing suggestions.
Martin's idea for wet/oiled pumice powder would be a different method.
Eventually my local silver smith also suggests steel wool or, as alternative, a (dishwashing) green scourer pad.
In any case, i am not yet ready for such adventure and for the meantime, will leave it as it is.


.

[Kubur]

I would like to add my humble example to the thread since this thread shows many reference examples. What makes it specially interesting is a blade with yelman.


Your sword is very interesting, a combinaison of Yemeni and Zanzibari swords...
With an imported Indian / Afghan blade (these blades have a yelman).

[Kubur]

In any case, i am not yet ready for such adventure and for the meantime, will leave it as it is.
.

Yes i think you should let it as it is.
IMHO!!!
;)

[Lee]

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.

[Martin Lubojacky]

Fernando: it is not a common Arabian Saif, but one of the best Saifs I have ever seen! A great sword, congratulations!
I would like to add my humble example to the thread since this thread shows many reference examples. What makes it specially interesting is a blade with yelman.
You may try for "unpolishing" a very fine sandpaper with 2000 grit or a 0000 steel wool.

Hi Tatyana,
Dissadvantage of the fine sandpaper (e.g. 2000) is, that when/if its surface is choked - you are starting to polish (instead of unpolish). On the other side - if the paper is new, you risk scratches (even in the case of 2000 grit) visible from certain angles. That´s why the fine pumice stone powder on the wet/oily and soft mussy textile should be (only my opinion) more regardful and should give steadier result... I think

[fernando]

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.
Wise words Lee ... and a perfect solution :cool: .

[Richard G]

I have seen a few of these. A polished or burnished blade is not uncommon, and for that matter common to many Arab swords. I think it is most probably how the original owners would have wanted it, so beyond cleaning, I would leave it as it is.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

That is a settled matter Richard :cool: .

[Michael Blalock]

Here is one I have.

[fernando]

Excelent example, Mchael.
An European blade ? :o .

[fernando]

I have been trying to figure out was is the purpose of that little ring near the top of the scabbard, which i later associate with that little strap in one of the examples in Hale's work. My first thought was that this must be some kind of decoration, seen in some Saif scabbard examples.
But then i saw a thread in that Jens shows how a loop was present in some Indian scabbards, alledgely for the purpose to loop over a handle quillon to prevent the sword from slipping out.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23764.

This is a rather long shot, plus i notice that the (woven silver) strap in Hale's example seems a bit short for that but, could it either stretch by pulling it up, or by means of some material elasticity ?
Any better ideas, Gentlemen ?


.

[fernando]

The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced. Look at these examples, how suggestive they are ... specially the one in the center.
(Courtesy Oriental Arms).

.

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced.
Yes, I believe this is a suitable explanation for their function: The distance seems to be correct (also for the example in Bob's book) and the ring is consistently much weaker than those for the carrying loops!

Regards,
Kai

[Victrix]

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that. :confused:

[fernando]

Thank you for your favourable thoughts, Kai.

Victrix i take it that, the chain in place of the knuckle guard is a fashion practiced in diverse swords of diverse countries, and often discussed out there. I confess i ignore what is the consensual conclusion from such dicussions.

[qusko]

Hi,

I have seen recently similar saif with loose blade in the hilt.

Can anyone help me to understand the construction of that hilt (under the repuded silver plate)?
I was able to find this general description in http://ageaeditora.com/nimcha-616/


"
The identifying characteristics of a nimcha are as follows:

Handle: can be made with various materials (ivory, tortoiseshell, wood, horn…). It´s shape can be curved or in lion´s head, with or without ears, as can be seen in the next picture.

Tang: goes through the hilt and is fixed to it by a button-shaped rivet, or is riveted to a metal sheet of a size similar to the base of the hilt.

Knuckle bow: starts from the cross-guard and its shape can be in right angle (original shape) or in “S” (later evolution).

Crossguard: can be forward-swept, as the secondary upper quillion, or keep just this one, forward-swept too, while the quillions are joined together by forming a ring which protects the hand.
"

Was it attached with cutler resin?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a Nimcha~ The question is where is it from.. ? Firstly it is not a Maghreb style nor is it a Zanzibari . Buttin I believe places this in the correct category and I have seen variants similar from Yemen and Saudia...The design appears to be Hindi but that does not mean absolutely from Hyderabad but it could be because of the trade links and Yemeni Mercenaries working there. It could have been made by an Indian craftsman living in Yemen...But I doubt that as well and return to Hyderabad since it would have been full of such craftsmen thus Hyderabad gets my vote.

I think a look at the Buttin Chart plate XXX below will show just how close that author was in his deliberations on these weapons. Personally I have a great difficulty putting the whole story together on what went where ...and how if at all the Moroccan is related to the Arabian? . For certain there are a whole lot of variants and how much is influenced from India or Yemen or Saudia is the puzzle we are trying to solve.

For Zanzibar the question is ...were any swords made there for which I have my doubts?..and suggest that swords were all imported in and from the countries trading in the Hub. Buttin lived most of his life in Morocco and would certainly have noted any relationship with Zanzibari weapons but he never did... In fact the three plates are entirely separate. 1009 and those straight guards flanking it probably sets out the variant we are looking at.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14143&highlight=buttin shows other similar forms and below what looks more like a Yemeni style although very similar ..Thus I think it would be a spllt decision to exactly place the pin point origin.. Yemeni/Saudia ?

As for the cut out Knock under the pommel my view has always been that this was the pivotal point with which the little finger was able to swivel and twist the hilt giving it a very flexible feel in combat mode.. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Beautiful sword!!!
I finally found pics of one of these sa'if I have had for many years. The hilt is of course more toward the 'karabela' style (often termed hawks head in some Arabian parlance) rather than this style which is known in same contexts.
According to what I recall from Lebedynsky these are of 18th c. but certainly would have been from later as well with traditions continuing.

Mine has a highly polished blade as well, which I always shuddered at the thought of it being chrome, but resolved as here that it was highly polished.
It has an inscription which I take to be commemorative as it reads"
"...the Islamic sword named after Muhammed al Hassan, the commander of all Faithful, the one who God choose victorious, was drawn in the year 1119H."

The year I believe is 1689, but I am uncertain how accurately I have relayed this or the inscription. However it does as noted seem commemorative.

The motif in the silver repousse does correspond with similar found in Hyderabad, and as has been noted, there was a long tradition of Yemeni (Hadhramaut) mercenary forces to Hyderabad and much of the mounting seems to have been made there.
The styling also includes very much Arabian character such as the 'aghrab' at scabbard throat mount.

The scabbard here is also of interest as it is with silver band wrap gadrooned over red velveteen, an affectation known well in Bukharen context. It seems discussions here some time back revealed strong ties between Bukhara and Yemen religiously and diplomatically. While this suggests a Yemeni production but could have of course been transmitted to Hyderabad and filtered into the making of mounts there.

I cannot see the curious mount above the baldric rings, but agree with Fernando, this is I believe to secure the sword in the scabbard. It seems I had read somewhere it was something like a 'safety' on a pistol, and indicator of peaceful contact despite a weapon being worn, where such was considered a threatening or disrespectful demeanor.

[qusko]

Adding some pictures of the hilt without silver cover.
Looks like tang is going through the handle.

[fernando]

... I cannot see the curious mount above the baldric rings, but agree with Fernando, this is I believe to secure the sword in the scabbard. It seems I had read somewhere it was something like a 'safety' on a pistol, and indicator of peaceful contact despite a weapon being worn, where such was considered a threatening or disrespectful demeanor.
Whether the 'safety' posture is not implausible, the fact is that blades often need to be secured inside their scabbards ... like in this Saif of mine.
It remains for me to figure out what kind of material/s was used for the securing cord; whether some stretching material or solid string, which tension applied when looping it around the quillon finial would suffice; reason why i haven't yet took the scabbard to the local silver smith to replicate the real thing and remedy with a arrangement made by myself, with some tense (leather?) cord, clipped with some silver wire bits.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando.
While the 'safety' bit is from some apocryphal note seen 'passim' in reading I cannot place some time ago, it does seem to have a degree of viability.
In another equally obscure recollection, it does seem that on some Islamic edged weapons there are strings of beads, in somewhat the manner of Catholic rosaries, but in this case having to do with the Family of the Prophet ...but I cannot speak further to this. Just another possibility.

[ariel]

Arabs very often used high-mirror polish. I have a couple of those, with pretty worn handles, but with blades one could use as a shaving mirror.
Take it to a local jeweler with a good machine: they can detect chrome or nickel in 5 seconds flat.
If it is in the original Arab polish, I would try to preserve it as is: oil only.

Excellent find!!!

[Jim McDougall]

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that. :confused:


Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

[Kubur]

Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

Kubur, , as always, interesting perspective. I can only add what I have understood over the years asking these very questions myself. The adding of a knuckle guard was with the stirrup hilts swords which seems to have been widespread, has always been suggested to 'guard' the hand (knuckles).
Near the end of the 18th c. the cross bar off the knuckleguard was added for additional 'protection' …..added bars became the three bar style cavalry hilts.

This is basically what drove the development of complex guard systems such as the rapier from simple cross guards.

As these guards, including knuckle guards, are not in contact with the hand, but in effect closed 'over' it, I cannot see how they would be intended to add to ones grip on the sword. With the intended purpose of hand protection, I cannot see either, how a simple, flimsy chain would effect any use for hand protection or even 'securing' ones hand on a hilt.

The sword I have has the chain guard, which has broken loose several times just in storing and moving it......let alone any sort of combat use. Aside from my 'battle' with a ceiling fan with a tulwar in an unfortunate moment, I am usually pretty careful with my swords....so the damage to the chain guard on my sa'if was surprising.

As always though, your approach to seeking answers on all accounts is great in analysis.

With regard to items as 'vestigial' as these chain 'guards' , also curious are the shoulder chains often worn by British military officers during the Raj, recalling the wearing of mail to protect from sword cuts. These would hardly have served their ostensible purpose, but colorfully added to the character of the uniform. The use of the curious crescent shaped 'gorget' recalling armor plate also worn in this manner hardly served a real purpose otherwise, and were symbols of merit or rank.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim

It was just a comment, actually i have no specific idea about this chain.
Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight. What are the effect of the vibrations during an impact between two blades? The curved grip is designed for the little finger and very confortable when you hold the sword...

For your chain, I have to say that I'm also always surprised to see how fragile are these objects. I guess age doesnt help... like us...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim

It was just a comment, actually i have no specific idea about this chain.
Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight. What are the effect of the vibrations during an impact between two blades? The curved grip is designed for the little finger and very confortable when you hold the sword...

For your chain, I have to say that I'm also always surprised to see how fragile are these objects. I guess age doesnt help... like us...


Your comments are always intriguing, and set my curiosity in motion. Actually I have wondered about these decorative chains in place of a viable solid guard years ago as well. I never found any insight regarding them, and it became more a search for how old the use of them was. The only cases I ever found with them on swords were court and smallswords, and various dress type swords.

With your mention of vibration, possibly the impact or shock action that would result from hitting the target would suggest such a chain acting as a kind of 'sword knot' like the straps on hilts preventing the loss of the sword from the hand. While not 'guarding' the hand from cuts, it may supposedly offer some use in keeping the hand situated on the grip...…..but even that idea is tenuous.

Very true Kubur, age is good for wine and good scotch, but not so much in
us old timers :)

[fernando]

... Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight ...
Some fencer i heard saying that, the chain knuckle bow "was mainly an artistic interpretation of the more rigid knucklebow we are all familiar with" also says, in response to whether its purpose was to prevent the user from dropping the sword, as "highly unlikely as, anyone who has ever fenced with smallswords or sabers will note that the knucklebow has done very little to stop a disarm".
The solution to such problem was indeed the sword knot.

[fernando]

Arabs very often used high-mirror polish. I have a couple of those, with pretty worn handles, but with blades one could use as a shaving mirror.
Take it to a local jeweler with a good machine: they can detect chrome or nickel in 5 seconds flat.
If it is in the original Arab polish, I would try to preserve it as is: oil only.

Excellent find!!!
Thank you Ariel,
We have ran this marathon in the first page of this thread but, thanks for reminding it. Also good to refresh my alzheimer in that i didn't yet wash and oil the blade of this one and that of my mameluke saber.

[David R]

Irrelevant post. :(

[RAMBA]

From the photo above it is also obvious that the Royal Armouries wisely chose to leave the high polish on their example alone.

"Unpolish" at one's peril. I would not touch it.