Thoughts on this lot from ebay

[mross]

This auction ended so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the
swords presented. I was hoping myself or a list member would have won so a better look at the swords could be had by all.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D6623920176%26fvi %3D1&item=6623920176

I'll be up front, I was hoping to win and then resell some of the stuff on ebay to defray the costs. I liked the two Kalis but my gut feeling is early 1900's. The Persian dagger sounded intresting. Would be nice if it was wootz, but the pictures where not that good. However that seemed to be in line with the other auctions this seller had. Botton line for me it was too much of a pig-in-a-poke to risk big bucks.

[Ian]

One of the kris looks to have an older style of blade, but as you say the pictures are terrible.

Overall, though, I'd say this buyer did very well with his/her purchases.

Ian.

[mross]

I agree, probably could not go wrong. My thoughts where the top kalis looks to have a older, possibly 19th century style blade. It is my understanding though that the horse hoof pommel was rare at that time. If they turn out to be Datu quality and 19th C. then the buyer has hit the lottery.

[doecon]

Auctionfloor bidder won this item. They probably had a much better view on the items then we had trough the ebay-stamp-sized version. If it would have been such a catch, makes one wonder why no other bidder at their location jumped in. Maybe you should be on their floor next time:)

[Rick]

Is that really a shotel in the mix ; or another form of African sword ? :confused:

[Flavio]

Is that really a shotel in the mix ; or another form of African sword ? :confused:


Hello Rick. There is no shotel at all. Only the first from left in the lower row is a bandia-benge sword from north congo.

[Rick]

Thanks Flavio !
Any chance these swords would have been carried in the Mahdist Uprising ?
Just curious .

[ariel]

I always knew them as Mambele from the Azande tribe. In the most recent version of "Three feathers" Sudanese dervishes emerged from under the sand and attacked the Brits with these swords. I thought that was just Hollywood confusion. Any evidence that West or Central African Moslems participated in the Mahdi rebellion?

[Tim Simmons]

The Mahdi drew followers, vassals, slaves from all the surrounding regions with Islamic influence. There is mention and examples of pagan weapons made Islamic by the addition of Koranic verse in many books on African weapons. On the defeat of the Mahdi I wonder how many made there way back home, if they even new the way back or where home was. I suspect it was easier to put them in a uniform and call them the Sudan Rifles or something like that.

As for the remake of The Four Feathers which in my opinion was rubbish, the British had stopped wearing scarlet from 1879. I cannot imagine any Azande being more than auxiliaries.

[Rick]

Well , I guess you guys caught my drift with the questions . :D
The 1939 version IMO was far superior ; say , I wonder where all those prop kaskaras wound up !? ;)
Maybe they weren't props .. hmmmm . :cool:

[Flavio]

I always knew them as Mambele from the Azande tribe. In the most recent version of "Three feathers" Sudanese dervishes emerged from under the sand and attacked the Brits with these swords. I thought that was just Hollywood confusion. Any evidence that West or Central African Moslems participated in the Mahdi rebellion?


Hello Ariel. The azande swords are a little different and more rare: the point is wider and are less curved than the one on the ebay, that, to tell you the truth, i have watched wrong because this one isn't a Bandia-Benge as i have written, but a mongelima kondo (TRIBAL ARTS vol I/n1, pag 58). In the film "The Four Feathers", the last one, some dervishes carry in hand some swords that are very similar to those of the Bandia-Benge (mambeli).

picture 1: group of Mongelima kondo
picture 2: group of bandia benge mambeli
picture 3: two azande sword

[ariel]

And, of course, I missed one feather... :o
Just tells you how concentrated I was on this movie...

[Spunjer]

here are close ups of the krisses


http://www.historicamericana.com/past_sales_view_item.asp?ItemId=35303

[Ian]

Thanks Ron. The close ups help a lot. The top kris certainly seems to be an older form, possibly 18th C. if we believe Cato's classification. At one time this had a larger pommel, perhaps junggayan, that has been lost. This sword would take some time to restore but it is probably fairly valuable as an older example. The other appears to have a small ivory kakatua and also would need some restoration IMO. Again, quite a valuable example.

Even with the costs of restoration work, the purchaser could probably recoup most of his/her investment by restoring and selling these two swords.

Ian.

[Spunjer]

you're welcome, ian. the older kris appears to have a twisted core...

[Mapico1]

Hi,sword left bottom is indeed a Bengé sword from N-Congo,middle one is Tsjokwé from Congo,border with Angola,top one is a Fang sword from Gabon.
From what I can see on the small images all appear to be period 1900-1920.
Regards,Danny

[mross]

Thanks Ron. The close ups help a lot. The top kris certainly seems to be an older form, possibly 18th C. if we believe Cato's classification. At one time this had a larger pommel, perhaps junggayan, that has been lost. This sword would take some time to restore but it is probably fairly valuable as an older example. The other appears to have a small ivory kakatua and also would need some restoration IMO. Again, quite a valuable example.

Even with the costs of restoration work, the purchaser could probably recoup most of his/her investment by restoring and selling these two swords.

Ian.
They do help. I tried to find close ups of these before the auction but was unable to. Ron where did you find them? If I had seen these photos, I would have gone higher. Less of a pig-in-a-poke. Of course I would have kept the kalis and sold the other stuff. ;)

[Spunjer]

lol, i was the first bidder on the lot. i asked the seller and he gave me the link. what prompt me from going higher was the fact that i had my sights set on something else at that time.