Sumatran pedang for comment.

[Athanase]

Hello,

Here is my birthday present received a few days ago.
It has some points in common (at the handle) with a pedang of palembang hinterlands posted a few days ago, but the shape of the blade is very different.
The blade is very wide at its base (1,5cm) but especially it has a Kembang Kacang and a very nice pamor that looks like pamor "Udan mas" of keris.
There is some remaining red paint at the base of the floral part of the handle.
The sheath seems a little more recent than the rest of the sword.

[kai]

Hello Séverin,

Here is my birthday present received a few days ago.
Congrats, that's a neat catch! And my best birthday wishes! :)


It has some points in common (at the handle) with a pedang of palembang hinterlands posted a few days ago, but the shape of the blade is very different.
I'm fairly sure this it not Rawas since the pommel shape is not matching. Highly carved Rawas hilts look different, too (cp. the attached pic from the other thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13812) ).

The blade is very wide at its base (1,5cm) but especially it has a Kembang Kacang and a very nice pamor that looks like pamor "Udan mas" of keris.
This pedang variant has usually been associated with southern Sumatra, possibly Palembang.

In a recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22942), I believed at least a subset might originate from northern Malaya (Kelantan/Pattani); there seem to be some other leads, too. I'm still researching this topic. BTW, mine example has complex surface-manipulated pamor, too!


There is some remaining red paint at the base of the floral part of the handle.
I reckon the darker grip part wasn't painted (braided wire work partly missing)? Do you have any examples of the typical Palembang lacquer work? How does this painted pommel compare with the former?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Severin,

just my feeling and like this a guess, I think it's from Sunda but can't be sure. I've seen similar blade shapes, special with kembang kacang from Sunda. And I've never seen pamor udan mas by weapons from Sumatra or Malaysia. Very nice sword by the way!!:)

Best regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.

[Athanase]

"Kai : - I reckon the darker grip part wasn't painted (braided wire work partly missing)? Do you have any examples of the typical Palembang lacquer work? How does this painted pommel compare with the former?"


Yes it misses a part of the wire (2 wires of iron / silver? / other ?? twisted).
Yes only the part under the "flower" is paint, not the floral motif.
Sheath doesn't seem painted but rather covered with a colored varnish. The wood itself seems naturally already a little colored.

[Athanase]

Hello Severin,

just my feeling and like this a guess, I think it's from Sunda but can't be sure. I've seen similar blade shapes, special with kembang kacang from Sunda. And I've never seen pamor udan mas by weapons from Sumatra or Malaysia. Very nice sword by the way!!:)

Best regards,
Detlef

I never seen Sunda sword whith kembang kacang, do you have examples to show?
Until now I had only seen kacang kembang on Sumatra's sabers.
I have another Sumatra sword with a kacang kembang (very badly done) and a label indicating Aceh as coming from, but strangely its handle is reminding the Batak handle

[Sajen]

I never seen Sunda sword whith kembang kacang, do you have examples to show?

Hello Severin,

sadly I am not able to post pictures from this sword since it's not mine but the owner is a member of this forum, I will give the member a hint, maybe he will post pictures from his sword.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

..sadly I am not able to post pictures from this sword since it's not mine but the owner is a member of this forum, I will give the member a hint, maybe he will post pictures from his sword.

After contacting my friend I am allowed to show pictures from the blade, the pictures are from the auction. It's for sure a Sunda sword.

[Athanase]

Thank you Detlef!! :)

[Sajen]

Thank you Detlef!! :)

You are welcome! :)

[jagabuwana]

A gorgeous sword! Learned a lot from this discussion too :)

[Amuk Murugul]

Hello Detlef,

Yes, Sunda is one of the leads I'm looking into - maybe Amuk Murugul would be kind enough to contribute some insights?

Regards,
Kai
Hullo everybody, :)

Apologies for the late response.
I was unaware until alerted to this post.

My cursory guesstimate:
Pedang Toebles (cut-thrust).
Blade: made according to eastern Soenda (Galoeh) protocol.
Handle: stylised (vegetal) Makara/Naga-Paksi.
Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.
Probably late-18thC. - early-19thC Tjaroeban/Tjirebon.
Hope this helps.

Best,

[kai]

Hullo AM, :)

Thanks for your comments!


Pamor: not an issue under traditional Soenda values; 'whatever comes out of the melting-pot’, not built-in design.
However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.

I am not 100% sure (but quite sure) the Pedang has it, to be sure a pic exactly of this feature is needed.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

The feature I wrote about isn't found on Javanese Keris, also not Sunda or Cirebon Keris.
Interesting thought!

Regards,
Kai

[Athanase]

A very nice Pedang.

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.

Hello Gustav,
I don't understand this sentence :shrug: what do you mean by "Odo2" ??

The way how cutting edge becomes thick just before the first "tooth" (which I am used to call Ri Pandan) of Jenggot on that Pedang (if I see it correctly, another shot of exactly that feature would be helpful) is typical for region around Palembang.

Sorry but I don't understand what point of view you want for the picture. Profile? The profile, the view of the face of the cutting edge?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo AM, :)

Thanks for your comments!



However, this is clearly not a random pamor: this pattern is achieved only by intentional surface manipulation (i. e. boring holes and flattening the billet).

There also seem to be other examples of Sunda blades with "designed" pamor types. Are these just exceptions?

Regards,
Kai
Hullo Kai,

The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such. There is always the possibility that some people may have designed the pamor themselves.
Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC. Thus began 'pan-Djawa-ism' (the Tjaroeban/Tjirebon court became very much Djawa-oriented ; also Banten, but to a lesser degree; this is still so today). This was the time that Mataram awarded kerises as 'medals',resulting in greater creativity in keris-making and pamor-design.

To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period. The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.

Best,

[kai]

Hullo AM,

Thanks for your response!


The view on pamor depends on what school one follows and also on how much of a purist one is. Generally, for the Soenda who were focused on spirituality, the end pamor was incidental, a gift from the gods and accepted as such.
Yup, I reckon that's the usual approach from a client's perspective.


Also, remember that the Soenda came under Mataram in the 17thC.
Seems the same influence can be seen in southern Sumatra, too...


To me, a non-random pamor tends to point more towards a post-16thC period.
Do you possibly have any Sunda examples with complex pamor from these earlier periods including Majapahit that you could kindly share? These seem to be very rare, indeed!


The quality of the blades also seems to have suffered somewhat as it approached modern times.
This seems to be a general trend throughout the archipelago (certainly with exceptions and different time-frames). Is it possible to delimit any corresponding periods for western Java?

BTW, any chance that the relatively early availability of European steel contributed to this? Any indications that there developed a split between "tool" blades from monosteel and more traditionally forged pusaka blades?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Séverin,

I have a Palembang Keris with quite similar Udan Mas style pamor, except for it has an Odo2, so not three indentations in a row.
Gustav's keris has a ridge (ada-ada) along the center of the blade - because of this design, the dots are along the sides only... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[Athanase]

Hello,
I did the photos but I left in Italy (Rome) in a few hours I did not have time to transfer them to the computer, cut out, and resize to post them. :shrug:
I will post them Tuesday night.

[Athanase]

With one week late, the pictures :

[Sajen]

Hello Séverin,

what a beauty! :eek: Can you post pictures in this quality from the whole sword?

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

Séverin,

thank you for the pictures.

I attach two pictures of a Palembang Keris. They show the typical "thick" Greneng and Jenggot, the edge loosing its sharpness just before Ri Pandan (that's why we more often see a complete Greneng surviving on Palembang Keris) and the Udan Mas-like Pamor treatment.

The Jenggot on you Pedang also is "thick" - till now I haven't see a Sundanese or Cirebon or Javanese Keris with this feature, and my main interest is Keris.
Maybe we could encounter this feature on a Pedang from Sunda - I don't know.

[Gustav]

And a picture from the now defunct UBB Forum, which even better shows what I mean:

[Athanase]

Hello,
I recently received a new pedang from Sumatra that looks very similar to the one at the beginning of this topic.

The handle is a little different, the iron guard forms a flower with 8 petals.
The blade is imilar but more detailed and better made in the "ricikan" area.

[Sajen]

Hello Séverin,

Another very nice pedang! Congrats!:cool:

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

Fantastic blade!