Bolo with wide blade and t-grip for identification

[Hal Siegel]

I've run across a couple of these bolo - preliminary identification is/was Mandaya, but now that there have been more Mandaya items recently discussed here I don't think that's correct. It's a rather distinctive style -

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590.jpg

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590a.jpg

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590i.jpg

Tom Hyle found this new example.

Here's one I had in my collection a couple of years ago, it went as a gift/swap to Conogre (who may still have it, I'm not sure):

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy147.jpg

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy147d.jpg

Gotta love eBay seller ingenuity - when I found the Conogre chopper it had a bowling trophy finial on the tang spike:

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy147h.jpg


We think this is the "original owner":

http://www.therionarms.com/sold/ttoy147i.jpg

Any ideas on who/when/where?

[Ian]

.. IMHO. The full tang construction and T-hilt is unlike anything from the Phils: northern, central or southern. Also, does not fit Borneo.

My inclination is Central or South America for several reasons. First the picture with the maddeningly unreadable inscription (can you get a better image, Hal?) -- I can make out HEADHUNTER ..... KNIFE CANA.. (or CAHA.. or CAMA..) .....

The guy in the picture does not look like anyone from SE Asia -- wide nose, thin well demarcarted lips, round face -- and the tattooing on the chest is something I have not seen anywhere in Asia, even in New Guinea, Borneo, etc. The scabbard construction, with its particular style of rattan binding, is also not reminsicscent of anything I've seen in SE Asia.

And the shape of this knife is quite similar to some of the machetes from Latin America.

That's my best guess. Be very surprised if the guy and his bolo turn out to be SE Asian. :confused:

Ian.

This is the best I can manipulate the inscription on the photograph above.

[Hal Siegel]

My inclination is Central or South America for several reasons. First the picture with the maddeningly unreadable inscription (can you get a better image, Hal?) -- I can make out HEADHUNTER ... KNIFE CANA.. (or CAMA..) ...

From the date on my copy of that picture, I found it sometime before December 2000. I just dug around in my "armor_images" folder, looking at earlier dates, but couldn't find a larger original. I may have to start looking through old CD backups ....

Here's a few more pictures of the Tom chopper:

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590c.jpg

Loose brass guard - for a moment, I toyed with the idea that this was a seppa (washer) from a Japanese sword, but the hole the tang mounts through is rectangular and not triangular as found on seppa.

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590b.jpg

Another view of the grip/pommel.

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/therionarms_c590f.jpg

Gimping on back edge

There's a tiny museum/collection label with faded ink on the back of the scabbard that reads: "Phillipine (47)"

[Battara]

For me that is as Filipino as my sgian dubhs. :p

[Andrew]

The lines on the spine are similar to those found on some dha and other SEA weapons.

[tom hyle]

The lines on the spine and the "okar" at the front of the blade base are things I've encountered only in SE Asia. Berber and Celtic spine markings are not the same.
The blade shape is identical to the simpler of the Mandaya/Manobo pieces we've been seeing, except (big exception, I know, but big similarity, too) lacking a ricassoe (angled or otherwise).
The hilt shape is markedly similar to Mandaya daggers.
The man's nose looks Malay to me.
Those are some Asian looking eyes, too.
Not saying you don't see these features on S Americans, but sure looks plenty Malay (etc.) to me.
Check his belt and ear-rings; what was that "fashion sense"? Those may be our clues.
Aside from weight, these are markedly similar to Collins 1005, which is generally said to be copied from a PI "bolo" (tenuous, I know; just covering bases).
Blade is similar to machete, or parang nabur.
The hilts on both are covered in brass/copper sheeting, for whatever that means.
Hilt section is rectangular, with fairly sharply defined edges.
No buttspike on mine; how sure are we that's tang, anyway? What's the coresponding feature on a Mandaya dagger? Tang?
Blade is folded steel.
End of handle can be seen through large guard hole (remember the wiggle?) looks porous; could it be antler? Rattan?
The rattan bindings on sheath and hilt look SE Asian to me; why not to you?
In any event, neither is original, though both are old.
That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath.
The criss-crossing of the overbinding (repair? joining method for a talismanic cloth?) particularly reminds me of Moro handle wraps.
How 'bout that red cloth? A small piece of a different old red cloth came tied to the sheath.
Blade is light and thin, with, as I recall, a humped wedge section.
Sheath is made in two shells in ordinary fashion; only the long, non-hollow "tail" is one-sided.
Sheath has remains of/biniding site for three or four rattan suspension-loops. I see the mouth of the sheath under his left armpit.

[tom hyle]

A further note is that that is not the original sheath-tip; the original end was a squared-off expanded-end rectangle, I should think, somewhat like the throat end; one of the corners is broken off, giving an illusion of a clipped tip.

[Ian]

Wrong blade -- the spine of the blade is upcurving in the photo above and has no sharp angle. Mandayan blades are straight along the spine, with the exception of an angled area a short distance in front of the hilt.

Wrong ricasso (as noted above)

Wrong hilt (as noted above)

Presence of a disk guard -- Mandayan bolos have no guard.

The only clear similarity to a Mandayan bolo is the shape of the belly of the blade.

On the Mandayan dagger, the central protrusion from the top of the hilt is an extension of the tang. The bolo, however, has a blind tang construction.

[Hal Siegel]

Tom Hyle: That's some kind of old (adhesive?) paper/tape down the edges of the sheath.

Actually, it looks like palm frond or a similar leaf material used for edging and repairs. Some of the frond is old and yellow/white, some of it looks to be newer and still a slight shade of green.

[fearn]

About the photo:

To my uneducated eyes, it looks like the tribesman is sitting on a rice mortar. That puts him in Asia.

I'd also add that tattooing (nice Polynesia word) is pretty widespread in Asia. I've certainly seen examples from Thailand, China, and Japan (Yakuza, anyone?).

I've been googling Cana/Canas/etc. There is a Canas river in Basilan Province, Philippines, for what it's worth. No other major hits yet. Most of the hits seem to be hispanic, for what it's worth--to me, that kind of points toward the philippines (under US occupation for a while), but I don't have a good clue.

The only Canas tribe in South America was defeated by the Incas. Somehow, I don't think the blade comes from there.

Also for what it's worth, that scabbard reminds me a lot of those half-scabbards with the open sides that we've seen on Taiwanese and Naga blades. The other side isn't open, by any chance, Hal?

Neat blade. A better picture of its owner would be nice, if that's possible--to read the text.

[tom hyle]

Good point about the spinal curve, although I note it's pretty slight curve; I went back to some old threads and couldn't find a Mandaya example with any.
About the "high shinogi" I'm not sure you're correct; it's my impression that this feature is not universal.
Mind you, I'm not saying it is Mandaya; I don't know what it is; I'm saying I see an awful lot of similarities, and I bet something accounts for them. My inclination overall is that this is a form of parang nabur with a hilt similar to a Madaya dagger hilt. I'd sure like to know more. It's got that great helpful provenence; "Philippine 47" on a little paper tag.
BTW: "headhunter......cannibal.....?"

[tom hyle]

Thanks, Fearn; I didn't consider we could ID his chair, stupid man that I am.
No, the sheath is not open on any side. It has one long shell that goes it's whole length, while the other shell is only part-length, covering the cavity for the blade; the remaining length being a solid wooden "tail". A small triangular piece at the end of the shorter (back side) shell is an old repair. One corner, as I note is broken off, and this expanded-rectangle sheath-tip also seems SE Asian to me
The edges are lined/wrapped with a "channel" of natural fibre material, either leafs or paper of some kind, then wound over with split giant grass (rattan?) skin. On the front, which is the side we see here, there are thin red and black strips of rattan skin than run lengthwise under this wrapping, and they are otherwise loose to wiggle around.
The sheath appears intended for edge-up wear, if worn as seen in the photo.

[tom hyle]

BTW, the look of the musculature on the man's cheeks gives me to suspect he is "making a face" perhaps a formalized toothless smile, much like the Giaconda/Mona Lisa everyone thinks so significant, perhaps sucking on a quid, so I wouldn't try to read any racial/regional data into his lips, not that one can conclusively ID origins that way, of course.

[Spunjer]

what about the "golden triangle" (thailand, laos, burma) area? possibilities?

[tom hyle]

The sheath tip, the disc guard; the blade partakes of course of a dha-likeness (dha and parang nabur being somewhat similar and probably related). It's a thought; I like the Canas river thing, too; research; you can't beat it; thanks again.
I think the point about the tattoo is not that it exists, but its central chest placement, which would be atypical in SE Asia (pectoral pairs are more common, or even one pectoral muscle, yes? though I think I've seen central ones; in Borneo? The Japanese tatoos, suposedly placed for concealment under clothing, IMHO actually follow this Pacific "tatoo suit" tradition, BTW). I'm not sure it is a tatoo; it looks almost like a cigarette burn or something on the photo to me. Awfully asymetrical for a SE Asian tatoo. Too bad no access to the original photo, but that's the shakes.

[Ian]

One other tidbit not previously mentioned is the square cross section of the handle. Has anyone seen that before? I can't recall any Philippines or other SE Asian weapons with square handles.

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

[Andrew]

The square handle is perplexing, Ian. Don't some Ainu weapons have a similar feature? Some Chinese dao I've seen do, as well.

Curiouser and curiouser... :D

[fearn]

Hi Spunjer,

You're not the only one thinking Golden Triangle. The question then is: what tribe? The sheath construction that Hal describes definitely sounds like what some of the daos have, except that instead of being open, with the blade restrained by wrappings, it has a second piece held in place by wrapping.

The other thing I think is fascinating is the apparent piercing at the base of the edge. That seems characteristic too, and unique only through location.

Hmmmm. Neat!

Let's line up what we have:
--Tropical (from clothing--hard to believe he's a highlander and wearing so little)
--Asian (from body type and rice mortar).
--Blade looks like it could be a) a bolo, or b) a dha, but c) it has characteristics of a bunch of things (like the apparent pad on the T-hilt, the piercings on the blade, the square hilt cross-section, and circular guard) that don't often show up together. Similarly, the sheath could be something out of southern Himalayas or Taiwan.
--there's more than one of them, so it's unlikely that some blacksmith put this one together just to annoy blade collectors :-).

If we start drawing circles on maps for each of these traits, do we get overlaps somewhere? Kinibalu? Innermost Laos? Basilan province?

Neat puzzle!

F

[Jim McDougall]

This extremely deep bellied chopper type weapon is most intriguing, and I cannot resist being fascinated by the brilliant forensics and observations of everyone on this thread! Excellent deductive reasoning, and very informative.
Since the weapons of these regions are admittedly far out of my field of study,it is a great pleasure to learn from everyone participating here and the knowledge shared.

When I first looked at this incredibly broad bladed chopper, I thought of the Moplah knives and Coorg ayda khatti, which obviously are completely out of sphere in this case. I found an interesting entry in Burton's "Book of the Sword" (p.170, fig. 193) which showed a line drawing of a 'cleaver of the Habshi people' of an island off Bombay, noting these people's ancestry from Zanzibar, again simply a note as this is even more away from the regions we are considering.

I viewed the photo of the native tribesman repeatedly last night, and cannot escape the conclusion that the tribesman is ancestrally Chinese, and appears almost Korean in facial features.
In looking at the weapon, the rattan lashings, hilt, all seem to suggest the Philippines. The broad blade and its curve, while having no direct similarity to the bolo, seem to allude to association by type. The second weapon shown with the 'horned' type hilt and fixture in center give it a three prong appearance such as is similar on the Mandaya weapon. Both of these are of course, as discussed, Philippines weapons. The disc hilt, which seems atypical of Philippine weapons, does allude to Chinese influence, as does the reference to the squared cross section of the grip. The pierced holes in the blades, one with circles and one with triangles, make me think of similar holes that appear in the Dayak parang ihlang (mandau) of Borneo. I believe these holes are often flled with brass, but am unaware of the significance, which I'm sure can be explained by those better versed in these weapons.
As Andrew has mentioned, the lined motif on the back of the blade is seen
on not only Philippine weapons, especially Moro, but on SE Asian as well (I have a Laotian dha with these type linear marks).

The Philippine archipelago is situated in latitude south of China, with the island of Taiwan directly in line closest to the Chinese mainland and further south are many islands comprising the northern part of the archipelago.
It is noted in Encyclopedia Brittanica that "...the people of China are the archipelagos nearest civilized neighbors and the source of far more of its culture than is generally suspected", referring of course to the Phillipines.

Chinese trade with not only Phillipines but continuing to the Indonesian archipelago was constant, so as always, trade and interaction between the mainland and locations throughout provided channels for continuous diffusion and influence. Since the individual we see in the photo seems of more pure Chinese appearance, and the population further south in the Philippines seems to have more pronounced diffusion, I would suggest the possibility of northernmost islands, especially more toward Taiwan, where it has been noted that the rattan lashings on scabbards is more likely on weapons. The similarity of the hilt in gestalt to the Chinese dao may have more plausibility in such regions also. It has been noted that even in Taiwan, there were contacts with with the seagoing Dayaks, and possibly the piercings in the blades may have been influenced by them. The tribes in Taiwan are also noted to trace certain ancestry to Assam, with note of the openly lashed scabbards there and a degree of distant association.

While these observations offer no conclusions, they are simply to add to what has already been presented and I look forward to comments from those here who know this sector of ethnographic weapons exceedingly well.

Best regards,
Jim

[John]

Perhaps John, with his knowledge of Sabah and environs, could help with this one. Any thoughts, John?

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.

BTW, great picture of you with Dan at the other thread.

[Ian]

Hi Ian,

I've not seen anything like that in the vicinity or at the state museum and it's likely to be something NOT from Northern Borneo I'd say.
Thanks, John, for your feedback. My impression also.

We seem to be trying to shoehorn this guy and his bolo into an Asian/SE Asian scene, and I'm still not seeing any hard evidence for such an attribution. Notwithstanding the suggestion he is sitting on a "rice mortar" (I've seen a few, but none like the object this guy is sitting upon), I still don't get a strong sense that the photo is from Asia/SE Asia. We are all making highly intelligent guesses, but coming up empty.

In my personal travels in Asia/SE Asia, including the Golden Triangle area, since the mid-1960s, I've not encountered a similar looking individual or that particular bolo. I have obviously not been to every corner of the region, so it would be nice to hear from others who live or have traveled there and can contribute some first hand experience, if any, on the origin of the photo or the bolo.

Perhaps DA Henkel could help us, with his expereince of the Malay and Indonesian cultures. Any thoughts, Dave.

Ian.

[Federico]

As noted in another post by Tom, I also seem to be seeing the word headhunter in the caption of the picture. Are there headhunters in S America? I am not familiar with the tribe in S America.

[Hal Siegel]

As noted in another post by Tom, I also seem to be seeing the word headhunter in the caption of the picture. Are there headhunters in S America? I am not familiar with the tribe in S America.

Most famous are the Jivaro/Shuar of the Eucadorian and Peruvian Amazon:

Headhunting: History of the Shuar
http://www.head-hunter.com/index.html

I've take a quick look through the website. Unfortunately, no weapons are depicted ...

[Federico]

Most famous are the Jivaro/Shuar of the Eucadorian and Peruvian Amazon:

Headhunting: History of the Shuar
http://www.head-hunter.com/index.html

I've take a quick look through the website. Unfortunately, no weapons are depicted ...
Thanks for the link. Looking through the site at the pictures, and then comparing it to the BW picture in the thread, I could see one of the modern color pics, done in BW with the grainy quality of an old pic, there could be some relation.

[Rick]

I believe the practice of shrinking heads is done only in S. America .
A childhood friend of mine had one , IIRC it was a little smaller than a softball .
We found it endlessly fascinating to examine and contemplate .

Where are the swords of these peoples ?

Were any of these tribes metal workers ?

If they depended on trade for metal implements wouldn't the machete be the only real edged weapon available to them ?
The blade/s pictured don't strike me as trade goods ; if they were then why haven't we seen more of them ?

[Jim McDougall]

Definitely not South America.....not SE Asian triangle.

Tribesman is probably ethnic Chinese from Northern Philippine Islands between there and Taiwan.

[fearn]

I agree with the majority who places these knives from Asia.

I'd also point out that the Shuar (Jivaro I believe is a derogatory name) were Stone-Age at contact, and I suspect that to this day, they don't work metal.

Otherwise, yes, headhunting (as opposed to head shrinking) was widespread. We can start with the Celts, if we want. I know more about it from modern groups in Irian Jaya and Papua, but certainly the Toraja, the Mentawai, and various Dayak tribes were headhunters in Indonesia.

I've been Googling for Philippine headhunting tribes, and so far, I've found references (real or not) to the Ifugao, and to other tribes in the hills of northern Luzon. If I had to guess, I would start looking at the minority groups from the Philippines as the source for this blade. I haven't tripped over a cana (Cane?) tribe yet, but potentially it's out there.

What do the PI people think?

F

[Ian]

... suggested by Jim. Definitely worth careful consideration since both areas were home to head hunting groups that were active well into the 20th C. The US presence in the Philippines during the first half of the 20th C. did much to reduce the practice there, and the Japanese had a similar influence in Taiwan.

We actually have quite a wealth of information already on the old Forum that can help with discussion of this region. On a relationship between the Taiwanese aboriginal groups and the various tribal groups in northern Luzon, our colleague "Cy" had these comments in an earlier thread (found here http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001381.html):

“FYI Taiwan formerly Formosa Island the indigenous inhabitants were made up of several Austronesian tribes commonly called the Paiwan. Of these tribes, 9 are currently recognized. It is speculated by a number of Anthropologists that the Paiwan were the forefathers/ancestors of all of the races of Austronesian people, i.e., the hill tribes of Northern Luzon, the Dayaks of Borneo, and other peoples across the Indonesian Archipelago.

The weapons are not just a factor but similarities in customs, you see the Paiwan and other tribes of Taiwan/Formosa were headhunters. Some even used the tattoo in a similar manner as the Kalinga and Bontoc of Luzon, as well as the Dayaks of Borneo.

I can go on and state various other similarities, etc., but I do not want to be accused of going off on a subject. The tribes of Taiwan: Atayal, Paiwan, Saisiat, Ami, Rukai, Tsou, Yami - of Orchid Island: Puyuma, Bunun.”

The knives and swords of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups were also discussed and illustrated in several topics on the old Forum, of which these had the most material:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000582.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002486.html

Some time ago, I wrote quite a lengthy piece on the various edged weapons of the main Taiwanese native populations (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000858.html), with illustrations and text taken from an excellent reference: Material Culture of the Formosan Aborigines by Dr. Chen Chi-Lu, Taiwan Museum:Taipei, 1968. This reference also provides details of the dress, textiles, tools, and much of the other materials of daily living used by the various tribal groups of Taiwan.

In the lexicon of knives and swords presented by Dr. Chen, there is nothing that resembles the heavy-bellied chopper that appears at the head of this topic. Nor is there a resemblance to the scabbard above.

I have just read through Dr. Chen's discussion of the dress of men of these various tribes, and they did use a breechclout quite commonly (which is the attire of the gentleman in the picture above). However, the predominant material was black cloth, and many men wore a short "skirt" over the breechclout, neither of which matches the picture above. The Atayal tribe was particularly fond of making belts and beads of threaded shells, and I think the man in the photograph has a narrow belt of threaded somethings, perhaps small shells but could be bone or teeth. Shell belts are not unique and may be found elsewhere in SE Asia, so this may not be a very helpful observation.

I have looked also at the line drawings of the various tribal peoples in Dr. Chen's book, and they really do not look much like the man in the picture above. I have not searched the web for pictures of the various groups, but someone might like to do that to judge the similarity or otherwise of facial features.

Bottom line, however, is that there is no record I can find of a fat-bellied bolo being used by any of the Taiwanese aboriginal groups, while the knives and swords that are documented are very different in style and construction.

Tribal groups of northern Luzon are numerous and diverse. With the exception of the Ilocanos, who are quite tall, the majority of "Igorotes" are small and dark skinned. The shortest are probably the Aete, who can be found on the Bataan Peninsula. There are many pictures and old post cards of the various hill tribes of northern Luzon. They are much darker skinned than the man in the photo above and have different facial features altogether. Many of the men wear breechclouts, but dissimilar to the one worn by the man above.

Of the various northern Luzon groups, the Aete do have a short, fat bellied bolo but nowhere near as massive as the one carried by the man in the photo or illustrated in the two examples above.

Other hill tribes, of which there are many (Ifugao, Bontoc, Kalinga, etc.), use heavy knives, some of which have quite a wide belly. Elsewhere on this site there is discussion of the hinalung and pinahig (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ifugao/index.html), and it is the hinalung that sometimes has a fat belly. However, even in its fat-belly form, the spine of the blade is flat and never upcurving (as in the pictures above). Moreover, the style of rattan bindings is quite different, and many of the Igorot scabbards are open faced.

Another tribal group of northern Luzon is the Ilongot, very notable head hunters into the second half of the 20th C. There is an excellent book about this relatively small tribal group and its head hunting practices: Ilongot Headhunting 1883-1974: A study in society and history, by Renato Rosaldo, Stanford University Press, Stanford, 1980. The traditional knife of the Ilongot is distinctive and separate from those of the Igorotes, but is not of the heavy fat-belly form that we seek and the scabbard is totally different, being closed and adorned with thin wires on which there are tiny colored beads strung and small pieces of mother of pearl at the end.

Once again, there are virtually no data to support an association between the tribes of northern Luzon and the bolo that is the subject of this discussion. The man in the photo shows few, if any, physical features to suggest he might come from this region. There is an old article by Dean Worcester entitled [i]Headhunters of Northern Luzon in the September, 1912 National Geographic that has many pictures of the tribal groups that live in the mountainous areas of this region. Another article by the same author, The Non-Christian People of the Philippine Islands, provides further photographs of many other Filipino tribal groups. While the text is dated and somewhat "paternalistic," the photographs are a good historical record of the times, and are helpful to the present discussion.

A lot of the thoughts on this thread have been by analogy rather than based on data. Our friend, Ruel, would urge us to be more critical in our thinking on this subject. I don't wish to stifle people's comments, but what we need now is reliable information in the form of historical records or direct observation. Saying what we have not seen, or what other people have not found, only takes us so far.

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Ian,
The well presented and detailed data you post here is outstanding! Exactly what I had hoped for, supported observations and comments on the ideas and suggestions added in the discussion thus far. Knowing that your personal knowledge and expertise on the weapons and culture of these regions is well established and based largely on travel and first hand field study throughout them, places your observations in key importance and qualifies the material discussed thus far accordingly.

While I understand Ruel's emphasis on critical thinking based on academically based discussion, I think that in our 'discovery' stage of analysis it is important to 'put all cards on the table',so to speak. I think that reading the various thoughts and perceptions posted on this thread, whether they are plausible or not, are important to be aware of, and as I have noted, are very educational to those of us not as well versed in this particular sector of weapons study. In the reverse sense of identification, it is sometimes important to consider what something is not, and progressively eliminate, to reach the most plausible conclusion of what it is.

Your excellent and categoric attention to the thoughts discussed to this point on this elusive chopper form establishes an important benchmark for us to continue with direction, and as you have well stated, bring in supported and referenced data to move toward the most plausible, or even better, final conclusion.

Thanks very much Ian :) !
Very best regards,
Jim

[Andrew]

Great post, Ian.

I once casually mentioned that I consider what we do on this forum as a kind of "sword free-association". This thread is a perfect example of this.

I also like Jim's playing card metaphor. I offered up the only observation I felt comfortable making. My "cards" if you will. By itself, that observation is useless. Factor in the other comments, and we may get somewhere. Maybe. :D

If not, I imagine someone will dig this thread up when more information comes to light. *shrug*

[Ian]

Jim and Andrew:

Thank you for the kind words, but I think I have probably said enough on this topic for now. Look forward to hearing what others think. This type of discussion does not come along very often. Hal has thrown us a real challenge here, and I do want to thank him and Tom for bringing these bolos to our attention.

This thread has the potential to be another "Black Sea Yataghan" saga or, dare we say it, another "Shaver Cool." :eek:

Cheers,

Ian.

[tom hyle]

I do want to try to make another point that may be too subtle for my linguistic ability at the moment: Let's try:
I don't consider the "angle" at the base of the known Mandaya blades to be part of the blade, entirely; it occurs at the joining of shaft (ricassoesque feature) and blade; thus it is essentially similar to say the forward lean of sabres, which occurs in the tang, leaving the blade per se (ie the cutting part) to be a simple curve, though the overall affect is of a re-curve. Such adjustments that are not in the blade as such seem to me to be more fluid, both within a given culture and between neighboring groups (see angle variations on sabres, or on talibon/garabs, or on kampilan). In other words, though certainly these blades do have a slight curvature, and the known Mandaya swords none, the actual blades per se are otherwise very similar, and it is a slight curve; thus to me it could be variations on a theme, with the biggest difference perhaps being the lack of an unsharp shaft/ricassoe. I don't think I sufficiently explained myself about this seeming relation earlier; hopefully I've clarified.

[fearn]

Great post, Ian.

Unless or until someone finds a good reference to the tribes of the Philippines, we're left guessing.

However, I'd be willing to bet money that, when we finally do figure out where these blades come from, it'll be a Philippine tribe, probably in the north, and that Therion's blade was brought home from a WWII soldier.

As an (apparent) aside, remember when the space shuttle Challenger blew up? The New York stock Exchange correctly figured out that components from Morton Thiokol had caused the explosion (Thiokol stock dropped far more steeply than did the stock of all other shuttle contractors). It took an expert commission months to figure out that it was the O-rings on the booster rockets built by Morton Thiokol.

Now, the stock market didn't have any inside information, but it did serve as a great way for agglomerating a bunch of disparate information into an accurate result. It was accurate, in part, because people had money riding on the outcome.

This is the whole basis for the Iowa Elections Market and other such predictive markets.

Getting back to this blade, I think we're seeing the same "market of ideas" here. None of us knows what it is, but (combined with the picture) a bunch of us are independently coming up with the same kinds of answers. My guess is that, as a forum, we're probably right, although I'm not sure each of us is individually. In

Going back to what Ian said, I'd like to see definitive evidence. However, I wouldn't discount the meanderings we've done so far.

Fun case!

F

[Rick]

I sent an email to the owner of the site on the Shuar along with a copy of the jpg. and a link to this thread .

Maybe he will respond . :)

I've got a couple of questions for Hal and Tom .
Does the blade appear to be hand forged ?

The sword we're discussing has a nice silvery 'sheen' on the blade up near the guard .
Would that indicate a factory made blade ?

[Federico]

One note I'll make. If we are still considering Northern PI as a candidate for this bolo, and we assume that the man in the picture is representative of the culture from which this bolo was found, then I believe we can limit ourselves only to the non-Christian tribes of Luzon (Christian groups at the turn of the century were Christian due to their subjugation to Spanish hegemony, as such they would A. not be in a loin-cloth B. not be considered headhunters). And if we limit ourselves to headhunters in Luzon, then we limit ourselves pretty much to the mountain tribes, called Igorot (depending who you talk to Illongots could be called Igorot, my mom is adamant that this is not the case, but Ive seen it pop up in period writing). That being the case, as noted already by Ian, while I cannot say I am any expert on the Igorot tribes (used to be a good network of websites on all the different Igorot tribes, but I believe it went down a couple years back) I dont believe Ive ever seen anything like this bolo associated with them.

[Battara]

Federico, "preach nah, don' play w'it!"

[tom hyle]

Definitely a forged, layered steel blade. It does seem to have had repeated polishings over the years, despite a lack of pitting, as the okar exhibits lines that are almost worn off, and others where there are none to reflect them, giving one to suspect those have worn entirely off. The surface exhibits a light grey patina, just about one shade darker than bare steel, over what looks like a nicely smooth old native polish.

[Ian]

... above, playing with Photoshop to enhance the letters, and it seems to me the last word of the inscription ends in "...OR" and I think I make out a "T" as the first letter -- maybe "TIMOR" ???

Well, that sent me to look for a suitable town, tribe, river that might fit the next to last word -- no luck (yet). So I googled Timor history and came up with some descriptions of Timor tribal men.

This quote comes from a book on the early ethnology and mythology of Timor that were recorded during the period from 1878 to 1883 by Henry O. Forbes, in his book A Naturalist's Wanderings In The Eastern Archipelago, published in New York by Harper & Brothers, 1885.

"All the natives of the islands we saw were handsome-featured fellows, lithe, tall, erect, and with splendidly formed bodies. They dyed their hair of a rich golden colour by a preparation made of cocoa-nut ash and lime, varying, however, in shade with the time, from a dirty grey through a red or russet colour, till the second day, when the approved tint appeared. Several modes of arranging their hair were in vogue. It was either carefully combed out, transfixed with a long fork-like comb, and confined within a single girdle of palm-leaf, or a black, red and white patchwork band, was allowed to hang loose to the shoulders; or it was done up in a fizzed mop, different, however, from the unravellable matted wisp seen on the Papuans of Macluer Inlet in New Guinea or among the Aru Islanders.

Their coiffure seems to depend on the kind of hair, straight or frizzled, that Nature has given them; when frizzled it is arranged in a mop, and when straight it is combed out and crimped with an instrument to hang down the back in a "cataract."

The arranging of their hair is one of their most enjoyed occupations, and the vanity with which they bind it within various coloured bands - narrow above broad - laid one on another, before a mirror formed of water collected in the bottom of a prau, or on the calm sea-face itself, is most amusing to see. The men are very fond of having their hair cut quite short, as it no doubt relieved them for a time by reducing the population in that region of their bodies."

And here are a couple of pictures of men and their hair styles from the same source. Note the way the hair of the man in the photo is pulled back by the head band. I don't know if this helps or not, but it gives us another avenue to explore.

Incidentally, European involvement in Timor goes back several centuries, with the Dutch claiming the western portion of the island (now Indonesia), and the Portuguese the eastern portion (now independent East Timor). The sandalwood trade in Timor was very lucrative, hence the interest of European countries in the island.

Some of the confusion about the appearance of the man in the photo could reflect that he may be mestizo, with some European heritage (Chinese is possible too).

[fearn]

Hi Ian,

I'm glad to have another candidate other than PI. However, there is a sketch of a parang from Timor in Draeger's The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia (p. 198) and they don't look at all alike. Also, as you note, Timor's towards the papuan end of the Indonesian archipelago, and our tribesman doesn't look quite right, nor is he dressed the right way.

Another older reference to Timor is in Wallace's Malay Archipelago, but it doesn't contradict anything you've posted.

F

[John]

The markings at the back of the blade also could be seen at the back of some Borneon pakayun blade whilst the hand guards are similar in the sense that they are both circular. If I remember correctly, both Ian and Andrew have mentioned the markings at back of the blade could be seen at other SE Asian swords. I've asked a number of Muruts for it's meaning but got no answer to date.

The blade is parang-like and some indigenous in SE Asia do have Chinese ancestory as the guy's features show. A more likely SE Asian candidate perhaps and a hybrid?


I've copied Mmontoro's pakayun pictures from another thread for reference.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethforum/images/e714c.jpg

[tom hyle]

Those marks sure are similar; without actually counting lines, awful close to identical (at least some of the single slanted lines in the spine of mine look like they were once part of an "X" than has worn partly away.). The disc guard as such is not uncommon; it's one of the two most basic kinds (disc or crossbar), and is seen in mainland SE Asia, Borneo, and the Visayan Sea (usually either in horn or wood or else, if metal. with added quillons, one of which turns down to form a sheath-grabber, the other usually coming up to form a knucklebow.), as well, of course, as Japan, China, and the Himalayas; I suspect I could go on if I thought hard. These ones are thinnish brass, and in the case of mine the hole for the tang is overly wide, and perhaps intended to be usable as a rattle, as we have heard tell of.
Gosh' they're already worth a lot of money, so I may as well say it; I don't think I ever get tired of looking at pakayuns.

[RSWORD]

In looking strictly at the hilt in the two examples, they seem to me to closely resemble the Nias Gari hilt. If you look in Van Zonnevelds book on p. 47, take a close look at that hilt. It has the same shape with the only difference being that it has a long iron protrusion coming from between the open mouth of the pommel. I suspect this feature has broken or been shortened in the two examples posted. The top example seems to have its forked pommel wrapped in cloth and perhaps it once contained charms within which would be in keeping with Nias tradition. The guard and blade shape I believe are imitative of another culture, perhaps Chinese. The notches at the base of the blade are peculiar but perhaps done by the Nias for decorative or symbolic purposes. Certainly not the ace of spades but hopefully a worthwhile observation to add to the overall discussion.

[Ian]

Hal. Nobody seems to know exactly where these bolos come from, nor the man in the photo. I suspect we will resurrect this thread down the road when we hit upon the answer.

As promised, I am attaching pictures of two knives of the Ilongot, a noted headhunting tribe in northern Luzon. The bolo used by the Ilongot has a fairly distinctive form and the scabbard is unusual in its decoration, featuring MOP inserts and dangles.

Ian.

[Ian]

Having thought the last word on the inscription of the man's photograph may be "TIMOR" I have been thinking over the next to last word and I believe it is "CANAKA," which may be a corruption of "KANAKA." The word kanaka is Polynesian and means human. It was adopted by Europeans to mean anyone from Polynesia or Melanesia.

Kanakas were routinely abducted in the 19th C. from the Torres Strait Islands and Timor to work as slave labor in the sugar cane fields of northern Australia, notably in the State of Queensland. There are still descendants of these people living in northern Australia today.

I think this man is a kanaka from Timor. On further reading of Henry O. Forbes' A Naturalists Wanderings in the Eastern Archipelago, I was struck by the following passage:

"What the pedigree of the Timorese is I have not sufficient evidence for forming any decided opinion; but that they are a race in which many elements comingle seems certain. I saw no one with what I can with perfect truth designate as "black skin" such as seen among the Aru islanders. Tall, well-proportioned men, with frizzly hair, and of a rich and yellowish brown or of a choclate colour, I saw in abundance, as well as short, stumpy men with straight hair and no lack of beard or moustaches."

Forbes further decribes a prominent presence of "Mongols" (Chinese) as local merchants, and even a tribal group of red-haired, fair-skinned natives who intermingled and bred freely with other local groups.

Quite an ethnic melting pot. In a previous post on this thread I rather boldly said the man in the photograph was unlike any Asian/SE Asian native that I had seen in thirty years of traveling in the region. I've never been to Timor. But it sounds as though Timor has some very unusual ethnic blends, involving Malay, Chinese, European, and Pacific Island groups. The man in the photograph may well have emerged from such a comingling.

Until someone comes up with something more conclusive, I'm going for a Timor kanaka in the picture, and his bolo as being a variation of either a local golok/parang or a European machete.

[fearn]

Hi Ian,

It's possible that the man is from Timor, but there's a bit of evidence against him.

As I pointed out above, the Timorese look Papuan, which means dark skin and frizzy hair. Similarly their blades apparently don't look like this specimen.

A sample handle (admittedly on a replica klewang) from the archives is shown here (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000984.html)

So far as I can tell, this handle is the same as Draeger shows in a sketch of a timorese parang.

I like the idea of "cana" being short for Kanaka--but I don't think we're in the right part of SE Asia yet.

F

[Ian]

Fearn:

Reading Forbes the last couple of days has given me quite a different picture of the Timorese. They have a wide mix of ancestry that goes far beyond Polynesian/Melanesian roots. Indeed their collective culture appears to have been one of interbreeding among all groups that settled the island.

The man's appearance is not typical of a Malay, Chinese, Polynesian, Melanesian, or any other racial group I have encountered in the region. So he probably is mestizo, which makes it very difficult to place where he might be from. The fact that mixed racial breeding appears to have been quite common on Timor enhances my view of an origin there, but it is far from firm evidence.

Fearn is correct that the bolo in question bears no resemblance to the traditional weapons described as coming from Timor. I think it may be an "unconventional" weapon from that island. Just as the man may be of mixed heritage, I also think the bolo he holds is of mixed origins. That may explain why nobody seems to have a clear idea of where it comes from or what it resembles. The blade looks looks like a machete. I don't know what the hilt resembles.

[Conogre]

Hi Guys...so THIS is where you all went!
Tom, glad to see that someone else came up with another one so that we're finally heading towards a type, where as up until now it was the only one I'd dever seen.
And yes, by the way, I still have it....the blade is definitely hand forged and completely unlike a machete in any fashion except for the fact that it's much thinner than anything I've seen from either the Philippines or the Indonesian area.
As to Timor, I have an opi that's almost twice as thick as the "mystery sword", while much thinner side profile.
Along the spine, near the guard, it's got 7 rows of three bars, very much like some of the tourist dhas from Thailand from the Vietnam era, opening the possibilty that it could well be from one of the older hill tribes that just aren't that well researched, maybe?

[Conogre]

Well the original swords that began this thread have now been unarguably identified as being from the Philippines, although which tribe is still open to question.
Engar's post of weapons from the museum in madrid has 2 exacly like ours and one with a slightly different hilt.
See "Museo Militar Madrid"-weapons-photo 2 and numbered 2, listed as "Machete Filappino" and "Museo Nacional Anthropologia Madrid", photograph #26 for two more, with no name or origin listed, other than included with the Philippine weapons.
Perhaps Engar could be persuaded to ask the museum officials if they have any additional information the next time he visits?
Mike

[Ian]

Mike:

"Unarguably" is a little strong, I think. I'm not willing to accept a Philippines origin just yet. Museum staff are notoriously bad at assigning attributions for edged weapons, so I would like to see the historic documentary evidence on these bolos before agreeing completely with you.

If you look through the pictures of these displays, there are some minor and major anomalies. For example, a couple of khoumiya have strayed on to one board, and many of the displays show an eclectic mix of Moro, Visayan, Luzon, and frankly Spanish weapons.

Comparing the original subject of this thread with the similar examples shown in the Madrid Museum, I am not seeing the fancy cut out designs at forte on the museum examples, nor I do see the sloppy rattan work on the hilts of the Madrid specimens.

If you look through the variety of swords and other edged weapons shown in the Madrid displays, the Machete Filappino is a distinct oddity, with its fat-bellied blade, a hilt with square cross-section (as opposed to round, octagonal or hexagonal) and a bifid, full-tang hilt construction. There is nothing else that remotely resembles this combination of features. This suggests to me that this machete is not primarily of Philippine origin. I would suggest that it is at least based on a style imported from elsewhere by the Spaniards (perhaps Central or South America where the fat-bellied form of machete has been common, and may have developed originally).

A connection to Spanish America is something I have thought since I first saw these bolos. There was certainly extensive trade between the Philippines and Spanish America, especially Mexico. Indeed, several of the Governors of the Philippines during the Spanish period came from Mexico.

Whatever may have been the origin of what is labeled the Machete Filappino, it seems to have virtually disappeared from the Philippines today, perhaps replaced by what we recognize as modern machetes or by traditional bolos.

There remain some further loose ends for me with respect to the attribution of the original subject of this thread to the Philippines. There is the picture of a very un-Filipino looking man holding a similar bolo, and the cryptic, partly legible inscription. I'm not seeing anything there that would confirm the Philippines, and there is no legible reference to a place or tribal group that would confirm a Philippine origin.

Lastly, despite the substantial experience on this Forum with Philippine edged weapons, including several native Filipinos from various parts of that country, nobody has identified these definitely as Philippine in origin. Nobody is saying, "my grandfather had one hanging on the wall" or "the oldtimers used to cut bananas with these things." With the exception of Federico, there has been a resounding walang wala. Does this mean that none of them have ever seen or heard of anything resembling these bolos in the Philippines?

Those are the reasons I'm still skeptical Mike. Provide some documented answers to my questions and concerns, and I will happily agree with you that these are from the Philippines.

-----------------------

Definition of machete: "Machete" is a Spanish term, and I found three on line references to the defnition of machete.
"1. A large heavy knife with a broad blade, used as a weapon and an implement for cutting vegetation.
[Spanish: diminutive of macho, sledge hammer; alteration of mazo, club, probably from maza, mallet, from Vulgar Latin mattea, mace.]


2. A large heavy knife used in Central and South America as a weapon or for cutting vegetation.
Synonyms: matchet (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=501&dekey=matchet&gwp=8&curtab=501_1&sbid=lc04a), panga (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=501&dekey=panga&gwp=8&curtab=501_1&sbid=lc04a)


3. A machete (pronounced muh-shet-ee) is a cleaver (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Cleaver&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a)-like tool that looks like a very large bread knife (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Bread+knife&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a). The blade is about 1.5 – 2.0 feet (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Foot+%28unit+of+length%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) (0.5 m – 0.6 m (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Metre&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a)) long. An English (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=English+language&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) equivalent term is matchet. Since the 1950s (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1950s&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a), most modern factory made machetes are of very simple construction, consisting of a blade and full length tang punched from a single piece of flat steel plate of uniform thickness (and thus lack a primary grind), and a simple grip (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Hilt&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) of two plates of wood or plastic bolted or rivetted together around the tang. Finally, one side is ground down to an edge - although some are made so cheaply that the purchaser is expected to finish the sharpening. These machetes are usually provided with a simple cord loop as a sort of lanyard, and a canvas (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Canvas&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) scabbard (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Scabbard&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) - although in some regions where machetes are commonly used tools, the users may make decorative leather scabbards for them.

The machete is normally used to cut through thick vegetation such as sugar cane (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Sugarcane&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) or jungle (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jungle&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) undergrowth (the lack of a primary grind makes the machete much less effective on woody vegetation), but it can also be used as an offensive weapon (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Weapon&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a). Machetes were the primary weapon used by the Interahamwe militias in the Rwandan Genocide (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Rwandan+Genocide&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a). The modern machete is very similar to some forms of the mediaeval (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Middle+Ages&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) falchion (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Falchion&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) (a type of sword (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Sword&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a)), differing mainly in the lack of a guard (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Hilt&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) and a simpler hilt.

A panga (a Swahili (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Swahili+language&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) word) is a variant used in East Africa (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Eastern+Africa&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a), with a broader blade and a squared off tip. In the Philippines (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Philippines&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a), a bolo (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Bolo+knife&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) is a very similar tool, but with the blade swelling just before the tip to make the knife even more tip-heavy for chopping.

Other similar tools include the parang and the golok (from Malaysia (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Malaysia&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a) and Indonesia (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=84o2dcimgu9e5?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Indonesia&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04a)), however these tend to have shorter, thicker blades with a primary grind, and are more effective on woody vegetation."

[engar]

Perhaps Engar could be persuaded to ask the museum officials if they have any additional information the next time he visits?
The next week ;)

It´s true that exist a very big difference between catalogation in Museo del Ejercito and Museo Antropologico. The Museo del Ejercito have a very bad catalogation, may be they don´t have any person specialized on PI weaponry but not in Museo Antropologico. But I´m not and expert but it looks like they have no idea about PI weaponry. Anyway they mix weapons from different countries in the same "shield" but always you find very clear the info on the poster (not always correct info, LOL).

A connection to Spanish America is something I have thought since I first saw these bolos. There was certainly extensive trade between the Philippines and Spanish America, especially Mexico. Indeed, several of the Governors of the Philippines during the Spanish period came from Mexico.
Philippines Government depends on Mejico Government during long time.

Excuse my interference on the thread.

[Ian]

You are not intruding at all. You have actually helped us a lot in our discussions here. I am most grateful for the pictures you have posted. These are very helpful. Please do add your thoughts and comments here also.

Ian.

[Conogre]

Ouch, ouch ouch!**grin**
Points taken, Ian, although if you look closely at "the sword" on the right in this picture:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/engar/Museo%20Nacional%20Antropologia%20Madrid/Weapons/?action=view&current=HPIM2214.jpg
I think you'll see that appear to me to be tha same diamond shaped cut outs as are present in the sword I have.
I too saw the saw the khoumiyas and was hesitant to say anything because of that alone, although I do have to admit to being swayed and a little excited (who, me? **grin**) when I saw the 2nd two peaces.
I also see your points in regards to the obvious point that many things became confused with the Philippines being a stop off point between Spanish ships too and from S. America, thus may have been transported from either direction, although I honestly have to say that actually holding one of these, they have absolutely no "machete" feel to them, at least compared to any weapon or tool even vaguely in that category.
I can't speak for Tom's piece, but mine has a hilt that has a similarity in common with many pices from India that I've not seen mentioned (nor that I thought to mention, sorry) in that the hilt is too small for me to hold comfortably in any position, as in most tulwars, while I've not found this to be true with most weapons indigenous to the Philippine Islands....likewise, the hilt on mine is covered with pieces of brass that have been cut, shaped and interlocked to cover the wooden frame, much like a Moroccan flyssa, with one of the museum specimens appearing to be similarly brass covered, even with a projecting tang, as in mine.
Likewise, while the blade is deep and broad-bellied, the tang construction is so weak that, in all honesty, I would expect it to come apart if used as a machete or similar field tool, much like the tangs on the head taking axes would prohibit them form being used to fell trees.
Can I just say that thre's a much stronger POSSIBLITY that these may be of Philippine origin? **grin**
The single strongest indicator, I guess, is that three of them showed up in the same collection (and only two jambiyas **another grin**), with only two that we know of having been run accross in the past 5 years or so.
Mike

[tom hyle]

So I've got this talibon from Leyte. I don't know this by any mysterious nor scholarly powers; it say "Leyte" on the sheath (it says either "AbuyOg LEytE P.I." or "Abuy 09 LEytE P.I." The capitalization is just like that, except the "small" ys and g are written above the line, so they occupy the same space as the capitals (and the u, though it has a tail is giantified to match); thus it seems the way to tell whether that's " '09" or "...og" is to know if there's a district or town on Leyte called Abuy or Abuyog.). It has two features rather similar to this sword. First, the handle is of definitely rectangular cross-section. Second, the sheath is made similarly, with an extra long front piece that forms a long tail beyond the blade cavity, while the back only covers the cavity. The sheath tip also ends by the edges flaring out and being "cut off" by a straight end (though it is angled, rather than perpendicular, as this one seems to have been). It seems old, and the front of handle and sheath are covered in lime-filled carving.

[tom hyle]

BTW, a bit about the definitions given of machete; they do not (as I suppose one might expect from lexicographers?...) show a good understanding of the proper use and the physics of machete (or perhaps of cutting), in perhaps typical fashion, getting things wrong when trying to go in depth. First, though I find the relation of the name to "mace" very interesting, especially in light of the traditional use of the flat of the machete as bludgeon by police and bosses, machete is not a heavy knife or sword; there are heavy varieties, but it is by and large marked by being a lightweight sword. The old forged ones had distal taper, for all the same reasons as any other sword. The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do have, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin? :D oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there..... :rolleyes:

[tom hyle]

Wow, I don't think I'll edit that one any more (unless it offends someone and I have to); check it out; I tried to roll my eyes at my own broad net-casting, but the placement worked out just right to roll 'em up at Master's oppressiveness.....I tell youse; it was a total accident, but I really enjoy it though; even the computer can make a joke, I guess.
One other little thing about the word machete; Spanish officials in the 19th and (at least) early 20th used to apply it very broadly and liberally; How 'bout it, Therion; that Spainish military "machete" I swapped you ain't no machete, eh? It's a heavy-ass backsword.....I'd hesitate to use the Spanish term as a designation for this type, though as it's all we have I guess it makes sense. I certainly wouldn't read any thing into it as to the traditional usage of the sword.

[Rick]

Tom , maybe you're looking at the wrong language for the word root .
Try macerar , Spanish to macerate .

[Ian]

Thanks Tom ... I think. My eyes are having trouble reading fast enough to keep up with your thoughts. Man, you pack a lot in one paragraph.

How does what you say here mesh with Carter Rila's essay on the machete posted elsewhere on this site?

Ian.

The reason it's not good for (heavy) woody vegitation is certainly not that it lacks a primary bevel (which, rather subtly and best seen at the butt of the tang, many old ones do, anyway); if machete had a high and easily noticed primary bevel/wedge section at the thickness it's at it would have a very fine edge, rather than the heavy one it does have, and chopping wood would just snap its edge out, like a butcher knife (yes, I've seen it; it's sad). No, the reason machete isn't the best for cutting hard woody vegetation (though it will do it for a good long while before the tang finally breaks; seen that, too) is that it is too thin, especially at the base, but also in the cutting area. The increased width often seen toward the tip is not to add weight, as often said; that's incidental; the mass serves another purpose, which is to absorb some of the vibration that can be such a problem, especially with thin swords.
Why is machete thin? :D oh, fun times, explaining that! African influence?(check!) Cheapness (check!) The rise of spring-tempered blades (check!) Origins as a slave tool master didn't want to be too good for fighting (check!) It would really tire you out to use a heavy one all day (check!); lot of use I am there..... :rolleyes:

[tom hyle]

not sure; Carter & I usually agree about machete, but use very different language; he tends to talk about the action of the hand and wrist that produce the proper/true machete cut, while I tend to talk about its result; the way it moves the cutting tip through the.....workpiece? victim? Also, I don't remember if he said anything about the African connection that seems fairly clear to me. It's been a while; I'll re-read.....dang homework :D
Rick; doesn't mace come in under that same etymology somewhere? To chew up or to crush.....that's what I was thinking, anyway.

[tom hyle]

Meshes fairly well, I think. I had forgotten Carters' creditting of American Indian stick use for machete origins. A very good spice to add to the mix :) He does also mention the more usually heard lineage through the "sailors' cutlass" and other european hangers, including dual use types like langenmesser (commonly called grossmesser; props to Therion for diseminating the more correct form, or at least he says so, and he's probably right, but I don't know how the argument goes.....cutlace, cuttoe, there was a Spanish version, too; a dual-use soldiers' and peasants' landclearing sword with a curved blade and wide tip, but I forget the name; I think Museum Rep.s once had a copy for sale). It is worth noting that machetes are said to be commonly called "cutlass" in the Caribean region.
The resemblance to butchering knives is A/intentional, as there has always been a somewhat legalistic claim that machete (as with many large European peasant knives) is a knife, rather than a sword; ie nonviolent ( so strong and persistent is this custom that N American men still regularly tell me "That's not a sword; that's a machete!" Yeah, and that's not a mammal, it's a dog.....the women [of course?] more usually know that they don't know..... ), and B/ only pertains to the overall view of the sword, and the handle design, but certainly the cross-section is different in that machete, even when it does have a slight full height bevel, has a thick, heavy, relatively obtusely angled edge for strength against battering, compared to a butchering knife's thin, fine, acute edge for slashing/slicing.
Carter also mentions the way the term seems to be much more broadly applied and to heavier implements in Spain than in at least N America.
I don't think he's right about machete costeno of the Acapulco region being a post wwII phenomenon. This is the "yelman" machete; also known, I am told, as "cuchilla del costa" or (West) coast knife. We've all seen the engraved ones, I guess, with the saddle scabbards and the eagle pommels, that are so very similar to US machetes of the early 20th, and though production of the horn handled distal tapered, full height bevel machete seems to have gone on longer in Mexico than US, many of them seem quite old. I've an old farmery one, with a different (zoomorphic?) type pommel. The two native ones (I've another with a possibly reshaped Robert Mole blade) that I have both have typical hotstruck Spanish colonial maker's marks; name (personal? family? town?) or initials, as seen on Luzon bolos as well, while the engraving is a later cold process, and this seems typical of Mexican and Spanish colonial work in general? I had a nice little "bowie" though, where there was only engraving "Vivan los Herdez" Herdez is a family name; not sure maker or owner......otherwise it's more often sometimes the other way; hotstruck mark but no engraving, or else both.
We're pretty well on the same page it seems as to the role played by the rise of cheap modern spring tempered carbon steel in the rise of this thin, light sword, which lacks stiffness when softer, though one does encounter softer ones, as well.

[tom hyle]

Leyte has an official website with a map. Abuyog is on the East coast. There is a town called Kananga in the interior, for whatever that might mean.

[nosmo king]

Hello everyone,I was noticing the "mystery" native's earrings.They are called batlings and they are made of hornbill.They are only worn by Ilongots that have taken heads.Here is a pic of an Ilongot with a segmented set of batlings.Notice his facial features!!!
Also,one of the Igorot tribes are the Kankana-ey this could be what they meant on that photo.
Here's an interesting link:http://www.geocities.com/sagada_igorot/igorot/ethnic_groups.html

[Ian]

Nosmo:

I've blown up that picture of the guy with the bandana a few times and I thought that the two pieces of material coming down each side of his head were the two ends of the bandana tied around his forehead. Really hard to make out much detail in our mystery man photo.

Ian.

[nosmo king]

Ian: the Ilongot have really long hair and pull it around the front of their ears and tie it behind their heads.This makes their ears stick out.Weird :eek:

[tom hyle]

Ya know, Ian, I had started leaning toward those being scarf ends myself, but now, seeing those ear rings; the length, curvature, and end sure are similar. The face does bear a resemblance, as well, if one considers that our sword holder does seem to be "making a face" that seems to distort his lips. Thanks, Nosmo.

[Eric A]

The photograph is definately of an Ilongot man. The blade and scabbard also look Ilongot, but often the scabbard is decorated with tiny cerated pendants of mother of pearl. There is a drawing in one of the Renato and Michelle Rosaldo books, as well as the Laurence Wilson book "Ilongot life and legends".

[tom hyle]

found it! Machete filipina to compare to parang pandat :D

[Ian]

This is an old thread about a mystery machete-like knife with a bifid hilt. They are not common, but they are old enough to be found in Spanish museums that collected them in the 19th C. The knife was eventually identified because the individual holding it in the studio photograph had ear ornaments peculiar to the Ilongot.

Attached to this post is a picture of Ilongot warriors carrying these large knives. The bifurcated ends of the hilts and circular disc guards are clearly visible. That these are Ilongot men is confirmed by the man standing at the right of the picture--the head dress he wears is unique to the Ilongot and is made from a particular hornbill. This head dress can only be worn by a warrior who has taken the head of an enemy. The Ilongot were headhunters until the mid-20th C. when they were finally persuaded by the Philippines Government to stop their headhunting practices.

[CCUAL]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14122&highlight=ivory+kampilan


Another example posted by Indianajones.

[Ian]

CCUAL:

Thanks for bringing these pics back up. That is probably the best example of this rare knife that I have seen. Remarkably complete and looks as though it comes from the same time period as shown in the picture I just posted above.

The sticker on the scabbard says:
BOLO SWORD
TAGALOG PHILIPPINES
Obviously not a Tagalog knife.

Like Indianajones, I have been looking for one of these for a long time.

Ian

[Ian]

Here is a nice picture of the Ilongot headdress made from a hornbill and other materials.

Height: 6.5"
Diameter: 6.5"
Approx. size: Length 19"
Size of Hornbill: Length 7"

Ian