Boar sword cross bar

[Foxbat]

I would like to replicate the cross bar for a boar hunting sword. I have seen pictures of such swords with the bar installed, but would like to know the exact construction details. One can certainly come up with multitude of ideas, but I would like to know the authentic one.

Does anyone have such a complete sword, so he could post pictures?

[fernando]

Is this an old blade, Foxbat ?

[Foxbat]

Yes.

[fernando]

Would you know how old ?

[Foxbat]

16th century.

[kronckew]

see this for some info: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XnnlOcLAnBIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=boar+sword+crossbar&source=bl&ots=EEWG8Xlz6c&sig=hj6TQm9BhjyzNTjO4vcnLofJ1_0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6wvDA1YfYAhWCyRQKHeSqBYgQ6AEIOzAH#v=on epage&q=boar%20sword%20crossbar&f=false

[Foxbat]

The link, unfortunately, is not working for me.

[M ELEY]

Did you mean to say 'boar spear'? I have never heard of a boar sword (not being sarcastic here!). I'll have to look it up- :shrug:

[Foxbat]

Boar swords were quite common in the 16th and early 17th centuries in Europe. Unlike the boar spears they sported sword hilts, usually in the typical for that period styles, like this one.

The term is less popular, but if you do a search on it, you will find them. Here, for instance:

http://karabela-arms.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=114

Often simply called Hunting Swords.

Here's the typical example of that class of weapons.

[Foxbat]

see this for some info: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XnnlOcLAnBIC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=boar+sword+crossbar&source=bl&ots=EEWG8Xlz6c&sig=hj6TQm9BhjyzNTjO4vcnLofJ1_0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6wvDA1YfYAhWCyRQKHeSqBYgQ6AEIOzAH#v=on epage&q=boar%20sword%20crossbar&f=false

Came home and found that book on my shelf... but it doesn't show much, unfortunately. A couple of pictures of cross bard, not clear how exactly made.

[Roland_M]

I would like to replicate the cross bar for a boar hunting sword. I have seen pictures of such swords with the bar installed, but would like to know the exact construction details. One can certainly come up with multitude of ideas, but I would like to know the authentic one.

Does anyone have such a complete sword, so he could post pictures?


Hello,

this is a so called German "Sauschwert" (sow sword) and here is the only picture of the spines I can find.


Roland

[kronckew]

The link, unfortunately, is not working for me.

I've seen a modern recreation of the boar sword sketched above by an experimental historian. Apparently the cross piece was made to be removable, possibly screwing together, rectangular on the main piece to fit the slot and prevent rotation, but drilled & tapped for a mating screw on the opposing arm. Each had a shoulder behind the bit that went through the slot to hold it from both sides. Unfortunately there was no pic of it unattached to the blade.

Screen dump: for those of us without the whole book ;) and a picture of the crossbar on the original museum piece at
https://guywindsor.net/blog/2016/10/horny-for-swords-me-too/

[fernando]

In any case, it appears rather difficult to spot one of these swords complete with their cross bar, worse a technical description of these devices, even worse that there is more that one system; although certainly not the 'horn' like version, in the discussed case. Cross bars or 'travincas' (as we call them here) made of wood and bone were materials already used in prior hunting spears (ascumas), in a manner that they were firmly binded to shafts, as scabbards didn't take place to conflict with. It seems more consistent that steel (iron) was a material that prevailed in hunting swords when cross bars started their appearance in the XVI century. We can see that when Emperor Maximilian in 1526 ordered a set of miniature paintings, only one of the five huntsmen had a cross bar fitted in his sword.
Foxbat's splendid example has some similarities, at least in what concerns the orifice for the cross bar, with those in Wallace Colection (plate 115); the author assuming how the (missing) cross bar was usually secured; somehow consistent with the right hand sketch in the above linked work.


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[Foxbat]

Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs. :)

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time. :)

[kronckew]

Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs. :)

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time. :)

screws and pin fastenings were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c, contemporary with the sword. many wheel lock firearms used them, and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.

there's a lot of ancient technology that was lost and we are still rediscovering it. like roman concrete used to build the coliseum and the pantheon, which sets underwater and gets stronger with age, not weaker like our 'modern' version. our's barely lasts a couple decades. the unreinforced dome of the pantheon in rome has lasted for almost 2000 years, having only needed some minor repairs in 200a.d. after a quake. we only recently found clay and bimetallic batteries we think were used in pre-christian turkey to electroplate stuff. and so it continues... the 'ancients' were just as smart and crafty as we are. and a lot more brutal.

you could always try the royal armoury at leeds, uk. they may have one they could photograph for you if you ask them nicely. ;)

the facebook page of their affiliated association is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/498926490154772/

[Foxbat]

screws were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.

[fernando]

Courtesy Michael Trömner (Matchlock)

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[kronckew]

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.

a tap is just a hardened screw with lengthwise channels cut in it for the shavings. as i mentioned, the male screws in wheel locks would have engaged matching tapped female ones. they would not have made individual screws with a file. they'd make a tap, then drill a hole, tap it and cut channels inside or drill holes partly overlapping the threaded hole to make a die. then harden it, and then make zillions of screws with the die, and tap zillions of holes with the tap, all closely matching & mating (till the taps & dies wore down, then they'd make new ones)

the spring bar latching one would be easier to make. they don't need to be particularly tight and immoveable to work as intended as long as they don't easily come off.

here's some we made earlier ;) (my uncle was a master tool and die maker)

[Foxbat]

Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. :) I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.

[kronckew]

Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. :) I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.


be creative & don't forget to post photos :) these swords are i gather, rather uncommon and those with crossbars even more so.

p.s. if you look at a tap and die set with shaving channels that match the width of the cutting teeth on the matching piece, you can see where some bright spark figured out the interrupted thread breech used on artillery breech loaders and even bolt action rifles and some automatics mid 19c and to now. :)

[Roland_M]

Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.


"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

In the old days every tiny manufactory had its own system for screw threads, which was always an enourmous problem, if one of the two parts got lost far away from the company or after the end of the company.
There were absolutely no norms, no DIN or ISO, nothing like that.


Roland

[Foxbat]

"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

Roland

Same here. I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! :) I have cut internal threads, but only in fairly large diameter holes - 1/2" at least, for anything smaller I use taps.

Here's part of my basement. One of the challenges here is to make the part not look like it was made on a CNS mill. :) I have some experience making parts that look old for some restoration projects.

[fernando]

... I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! :) ...
Rather huge and nice facility, that of yours. Mine is more on the space saving mode, cohabiting with groceries and other stuff :rolleyes:.

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[Foxbat]

My wife would arrange the swap in a second, she keeps giving me hard time over the order in my shop. :)

I am not going to show her your picture. :)

[fernando]

You could always disencourage her, by advancing that she would start disputing the sugar can place with that of the screw drivers ;).

[kronckew]

Mine is smaller than Fernando's. the kitchen and dining room table are my work areas, hand tools hidden in closets and drawers wherever there is room. only powered tools are a dremel and a worksharp linisher. there is a 'man cave' workshop in the community centre just across the road from me i can use, they have some power tools, drill press, band and table saws, sanders, grindstone, etc. i'd prefer a lathe, milling machine, forge, power hammer and a real full sized slack belt sander/linisher.

[Foxbat]

I feel your pain! :) When we were looking for a house, my requirement was full size basement. We were lucky to find it. But I am a hoarder, so there is stuff everywhere.

[fernando]

By the way, Foxbat ...
Can you show us your entire sword ... without the cross bar, of course ?

[Foxbat]

Here is the seller's picture, I don't have it yet, it is on its way.

[fernando]

Wow ... what an impressive beast !!!

[fernando]

...the kitchen and dining room table are my work areas ...

Not the dining room table anymore for me, since i swapped a little pine table for one of these luxury extendible specimens. Only suitable for innocuous bricolage :shrug:.

[Victrix]

I had the great fortune to visit the Imperial armoury at the Hofburg in Vienna. They had a couple of boar hunting swords speciments. Please see below for some amateur photos.

[Foxbat]

Thank you for the pictures, they do provide some additional insight!

[Victrix]

I’m glad you enjoyed the photos Foxbat. Unfortunately the lighting was weak in the museum. In fact I triggered the alarm when I came too close to photograph some halberds makers marks. I’m glad they didn’t throw me out :eek:

Merry Christmas to all.

[Philip]

Note the inclusion of another pig poker -- the boar SPEAR in one of the images -- it's a famous one, part of a four-piece garniture (also including a marshal's baton and 2 swords) by Milanese armorers Daniele and Giovanni Battista Serravalle, ca 1560, for Archduke Ferdinand II of Tirol. Note the addorsed boar heads at the base of the leaf shaped blade. A wonderful thing, if you're interested there's a half page color image in Lionello Boccia / Eduardo Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (Editrice Bramante, 1975), item no. 413.

[broadaxe]

General article I wrote several years ago on that topic, I wasn't aware back then about boar swords with permanently-fixed crossbars.
Requires registration via either Google or Facebook:
https://www.academia.edu/34183655/Hunting_Swords

[kronckew]

General article I wrote several years ago on that topic, I wasn't aware back then about boar swords with permanently-fixed crossbars.
Requires registration via either Google or Facebook:
https://www.academia.edu/34183655/Hunting_Swords

Cool pdf, i note you got the young steven segal to pose for the title photo...;)

[Victrix]

Note the inclusion of another pig poker -- the boar SPEAR in one of the images -- it's a famous one, part of a four-piece garniture (also including a marshal's baton and 2 swords) by Milanese armorers Daniele and Giovanni Battista Serravalle, ca 1560, for Archduke Ferdinand II of Tirol. Note the addorsed boar heads at the base of the leaf shaped blade. A wonderful thing, if you're interested there's a half page color image in Lionello Boccia / Eduardo Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (Editrice Bramante, 1975), item no. 413.

I recently visted Kalmar Castle on the East coast of Sweden and spotted this decoration in the ceiling, depicting a medieval wild boar hunt with the use of boar spears.

[Philip]

Thanks for posting this image! Would you happen to know approximately what year the interior and its decoration were installed? I'm trying to pin a date on the scene itself, the costumes look a couple of centuries more recent than medieval.

No big deal in and of itself -- even if it's 18th cent. the important thing is that it helps show the consistency of the basic boar spear concept across borders and centuries. The 15th cent, spear attributed to Prince Boris Aleksandrovich (Moscow Kremlin inv.no. 5867) would not, save for superficial decoration on its socket, be out of place among the modern piggy pokers sold in some gun shops catering to hunters in Germany and Poland. If it works, don't muck with it...

[Victrix]

Thanks for posting this image! Would you happen to know approximately what year the interior and its decoration were installed? I'm trying to pin a date on the scene itself, the costumes look a couple of centuries more recent than medieval.

No big deal in and of itself -- even if it's 18th cent. the important thing is that it helps show the consistency of the basic boar spear concept across borders and centuries. The 15th cent, spear attributed to Prince Boris Aleksandrovich (Moscow Kremlin inv.no. 5867) would not, save for superficial decoration on its socket, be out of place among the modern piggy pokers sold in some gun shops catering to hunters in Germany and Poland. If it works, don't muck with it...

Kalmar Castle has origins from the 12thC and is situated on Sweden’s Baltic coast. There were a lot of Germans living there and I think it was a Hanseatic city at some time? The castle was expanded and modernized over the centuries due to its strategic location. This particular hunting scene is in the King’s Chamber of Swedish king Erik XIV and the ceiling is dated 1562 on the panels. It seems to me that the costumes and weapons used are compatible with that date, certainly not 18thC. The room was renovated in the mid 19thC.

[kronckew]

In Wales, Cardiff Castle and Castle Coch were restored by wealthy industrialists and decorated lavishly in High Medieval style during the mid 19c.

[fernando]

These images are dated XVI century, included in the "Livre de Chasse" de Gaston Phoebus (Biblioteque Nationale de Paris).
It happens that, Gaston Phoebus, Count of Foix, a great hunter and author of the work, lived in the XIV century, two centuries prior to the date attributed to the images. To crack the riddle, one has to learn that these images illustrated a later XVI century edition... as i aldo have them illustrating this book i have "Eight Centuries of Hunting in Portugal" (Miguel Sanches de Baêna - 1998).
Mind you, i am not a hunter ... just happen to have been offered the book.

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[Philip]

In Wales, Cardiff Castle and Castle Coch were restored by wealthy industrialists and decorated lavishly in High Medieval style during the mid 19c.

Impressive example of the medieval revival in art, and the neo-Gothic architecture which wdrere iconic elements of 19th cent. Romanticist taste (the movement that's responsible for all those "Victorian copies" we encounter in the arms and armor marketplace today). The painting is interesting because it faithfully depicts medieval costume and architecture, but in a picture composed according to the standards of proportion, posture, and perspective that 19th cent. artists were trained in.

Lovely example of the style.

[ScottI]

Foxbat, did the boar sword arrive? Was it as you expected it would be?