An early English dog lock musket

[M ELEY]

Here we have an English dog lock musket, ca. 1685-1715. This early flintlock type receded the Brown Bess and many argue that the safety mechanism (lock) was superior to it's successor.

Apart from it being a monstrous gun, the thing I like about it is its history. The dog lock musket started out life during the English Civil War. It was a lethal weapon to be sure, penetrating armor cuirass at close range. This musket was the so called 'long gonne' of the buccaneer era, where people like l'Olonais and Roc the Brazilian and Henry Morgan attacked coastal forts and sacked cities like Maricaibo. The dog lock was also a popular sea weapon, used by sailors and marines in the great tops for firing down on an enemy's deck. It was around during the time of the early settlements in North America, not quite cities yet, such as New Bern and Bath, NC (founded in 1710 and 1705, respectfully). Finally, it was the gun of the first settlers hunting elk, deer, and foul (I'm thinking about Thanksgiving turkey! Of course, this piece might ruin the breast meat- :D ).

[M ELEY]

Ahhh, the dog lock! Note the curlicue trigger and artful trigger guard with its arrow design. The musket is missing its back plate and the ramrod is a modern replacement.

[fernando]

Say Mark ...
Is it the 'misty' pictures or the doglock i acquired the other day is 'brighter' than that of yours ? ;). Let us see what better pictures can tell us :cool:.
Can you precise; Roc Brasiliano, l'Olonais, Bartolomeu Português ... were they still in action when these guns showed up ? I see them all pictured with cutlasses ... and apparently leaving in a slightly prior era. Perhaps those muskets/bunderbusses were up for their heirs ...

[M ELEY]

'Nando, I'll have you know that I went to the esteemed Mr. Magoo Academy of Photography, thank you very much! :D ;) . Yes, I am no master with the camera.

I was unaware you recently got a dog lock! I've fallen behind on recent threads and will try to take a peak.

In regards to buccaneers, I did indeed mention the earlier chaps, so the second wave of Indies buccaneer infiltrators, De Graff, Van Hoorn and de Grammont are better suited to era. That being said, there are some sources that claim the dog lock dates back even earlier than I mentioned, to the 1630's.

As a sword lover over guns, I am happy to see the early portraits of the pirates with cutlasses and such. That being said, it was in fact the long guns that Morgan's and Jean Nau's men carried that took down the fortresses and settlements in Panama.The hangers/cutlass certainly helped with the close-up, hand-to-hand fighting.

[Pukka Bundook]

Wonderful gun M. Congrats on finding such a rare best!

Now, I would really appreciate some good clear photos, taken with a camera. :) :) ;)

Everything looks right, and something to be proud of.

Richard.

[M ELEY]

Thanks for the interest, Richard. As I said, I am no 'gun person', so I would like to make sure everything is right with the piece. From what I can tell, it is legit, with a nice even patina, hand made screws/nails, aging to wood.

I've been looking at the locks on other specimens and the only thing different from the remarkably few I've been able to find is that mine has a frizzen spring. I've seen later guns with them, but wasn't sure they were around in this time period. I will try and take some clearer pics. The cheap digital camera I used is the pits. My daughter's smart phone might be better...

[fernando]

'Nando, I was unaware you recently got a dog lock! .
Well, not so recently Captain; but you have been there. Could it be that the mermaids stole a part of your memory ? :D

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21281

[M ELEY]

OMG, I really think I am losing my memory! I totally forgot about this piece! (sorry!). In my defense, I have worked 60+ hours this week! I guess I never imagined that I might own such a weapon, so my memories stem more towards the swords in other's collections. In any case, that is a spectacular piece and I'm glad you attached the thread here! The mermaids are glad as well- :cool:

[rickystl]

Hi Mark.

OMG!! Congratulations !! A very early, and very rare, English doglock musket. Where did you find it ?? And, as Richard says, very deserving of some good photos. In that regard........if you want some assistance in taking photos, you are welcome to send the gun to me :D I'll even pay the shipping both ways :D

Seriously, it's a wonderful aquisition. These are so rarely seen, especially in such complete condition. Some early observations:
The stock profile, and the overall large proportions put this gun in the time frame you first mention above. Probably not any latter. Notice the trigger guard is simply screwed unto the stock, with no inletting to the stock. A common feature. I can't tell from the photos here, but it could have been made without an iron butt plate. Would not surprise me.
LOCK: English doglocks seemed to have appeared since at least the 1640's, in various styles. The early doglocks I've seen had three lock plate screws securing the lock to the stock. This lock appears to have only two, but with a third small screw securing the tail of the lock plate from the lock side. Interesting. But what I first noticed was the hammer stop mounted on the outside of the lock plate. This is a feature seen on snaphaunce locks, which pre-date the doglock. See photo below. Which may suggest that the lock pre-dates 1680 as a transition type of lock. Or it could be that the lock maker simply wanted to keep this feature. Or maybe the lock is even older than the rest of the gun. But from these photos, it looks like the gun was all made together.

Again, Congratulations. A great find. Please post additional photos when you have a chance. Hopefully showing the lock internals. Would be most anxious to see them.

Rick

[M ELEY]

Hello Rick and thank you so much for the good news on the gun. The story behind it was I picked it up at a very high end art and antiques gallery locally. It formally belonged to an English fellow who got it supposedly back in London through a Sotheby's auction. He also had excellent artwork and a piece of tassett armour from the Tower of London (with paperwork for the armor). I suspected that mine never had a butt plate, but was afraid to look foolish if wrong- :o . I will work on taking better pics and posting them soon. Thanks again!
Mark

[Marcus den toom]

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html

[Pukka Bundook]

Mark,

When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work.

Congrats again!

Rick,
Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?

[rickystl]

Always liked these locks and found some interesting references.
Seems Rick is right on the money with the transition thesis...

http://www.minecreek.info/trained-bands/info-gzt.html
Hi Marcus.

Thank you for the interesting reading. First time I have seen this.
Those photos showing two variations of the "English" lock, sometimes referred to as a Jacobean lock, although I don't recall why this reference.
The larger photo shows the retaining piece (the proper name escapes me at the moment) between the frizzen screw and the frizzen spring. This feature is also on Mark's lock.
The smaller photo shows one piece being used as both a frizzen spring and a hammer stop. Appears to be an attempt at simplification. Interesting.

I find these early transistion type locks very interesting. It's obvious there was alot of lock experimentation between about 1600-1670 from the wheellock to the French style flintlock.

Rick

[rickystl]

Mark,

When you take more photos, I'd love to see the lock work.

Congrats again!

Rick,
Is that a"TRS" lock? If so, on another thread could you show it all, both sides?
Hi Richard.

Yes, it is a TRS English Snaphaunce lock. I would be glad to post it on a seperate Thread - if the Moderator will allow same. Even though it is an exact replica of an original, it's still a replica, and I don't know if the Moderater will allow it. Although he may allow an exception since it would be very difficult to locate an original lock for close viewing.

What say the Moderator ?

[fernando]

... Yes, it is a TRS English Snaphaunce lock...Even though it is an exact replica ... I would be glad to post it on a seperate Thread ... What say the Moderator ?
In the context, i would say go ahead. But instead of posting it in a separate thread, why not posting it right here ?

[rickystl]

In the context, i would say go ahead. But instead of posting it in a separate thread, why not posting it right here ?
Hi Fernando

Well, I didn't want to corrupt Mark's Thread here by going off in a direction of various transition locks from the 1600-1650 period. Thought it might be a topic for another discussion.
I have about four locks from this period. While all are exact replicas with the castings taken from original locks, they are still replicas. It might be of interest to the gun enthusiasts on the Forum to view some examples of lock making between the wheellock and what we call the true (French) flintlock periods. The problem is, these locks (as well as the guns) are so rare, it would be difficult to locate anyone who has them. LOL
But, I will leave the decision up to you. I can always send Richard a PM.

Thanks for considering.

Rick

[M ELEY]

By all means, post my friend, as it adds to the knowledge of these pieces and to the discussion at hand. When I get the pics, I'll simply throw them in!

[Philip]

Hi Marcus.


The larger photo shows the retaining piece (the proper name escapes me at the moment) between the frizzen screw and the frizzen spring. This feature is also on Mark's lock.
The smaller photo shows one piece being used as both a frizzen spring and a hammer stop. Appears to be an attempt at simplification. Interesting.


Rick

Rick, I think that connector piece can be termed a frizzen bridle since it provides a two-point support (in conjunction with the lockplate itself) for the pivot screw. It's analogous to the tumbler bridle on the mature French flintlock, and the cock bridle on a miquelet.

You might be interested in the article "The Snaphaunce Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" by James Gooding, in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 3. A very informative intro to the long guns of Morocco. The frizzen bridle is seen on all of the examples illustrated and I'm sure you may have detached locks from Moroccan guns in your collection which feature this component as well. Interesting also are the presence of the cock buffer and the large disc that caps the extremity of the priming-pan on these locks, just as seen on your repro English doglock from TRS. All these on a Moroccan lock strongly point to a Dutch antecedent (see Robert Held, THE AGE OF FIREARMS, fig 149, p 71 for photo of a snaphaunce 1590-1630 which is all but identical in form to the later north African version). Considering that arms development in England and the Netherlands was closely linked, it's not surprising to see similar features common to the (much later) dog-lock as well.

[fernando]

By all means, post my friend ...
Now that you have a context and Mark's acquiescence ... and the moderator's Amen; shoot them, Rick :cool:.

[rickystl]

Rick, I think that connector piece can be termed a frizzen bridle since it provides a two-point support (in conjunction with the lockplate itself) for the pivot screw. It's analogous to the tumbler bridle on the mature French flintlock, and the cock bridle on a miquelet.

You might be interested in the article "The Snaphaunce Muskets of al-Maghreb al-Aqsa" by James Gooding, in ARMS COLLECTING, Vol. 34, No. 3. A very informative intro to the long guns of Morocco. The frizzen bridle is seen on all of the examples illustrated and I'm sure you may have detached locks from Moroccan guns in your collection which feature this component as well. Interesting also are the presence of the cock buffer and the large disc that caps the extremity of the priming-pan on these locks, just as seen on your repro English doglock from TRS. All these on a Moroccan lock strongly point to a Dutch antecedent (see Robert Held, THE AGE OF FIREARMS, fig 149, p 71 for photo of a snaphaunce 1590-1630 which is all but identical in form to the later north African version). Considering that arms development in England and the Netherlands was closely linked, it's not surprising to see similar features common to the (much later) dog-lock as well.
Hi Philip.

"Bridle" That's the word I was searching my memory for. LOL Getting old I guess. If I recall, that bridle was used on French infantry muskets till it was discontinued in about 1735-40 I believe.

Yes, I have that article from James Gooding. I ordered it a few years ago from the Canadian Arms Journal. Strangely, it took almost a year for it to arrive. But agreed, it is probably the best intro to the Moroccan snaphaunce longarms I've seen. They basically operate the same as the original, early snaphaunce locks. The difference being the much more narrow lockplates on the Moroccan guns to accomodate the slim stocks. The hammers (cocks) followed either the Dutch or English style.

Rick

[rickystl]

Now that you have a context and Mark's acquiescence ... and the moderator's Amen; shoot them, Rick :cool:.
OK. Thanks. I'll start posting here.

Rick.

[rickystl]

This is an exact replica of an early English snaphaunce lock. The castings were taken from an original lock from a private collection. If my memory serves, the first reference to the snaphaunce lock was from about the 1570's. One difference between this original style, early lock and the latter Moroccan variations, is the extra large proportions of this lock. The lockplate measures just over 9.5 inches long by 1.5" wide. Part of the reason for it's large size may be that back in this period it was easier to forge larger parts than small.
This lock would have been fitted to a gun closely resembling the English matchlocks of the period. Or re-fitted to an existing matchlock.
These snaphaunce locks were made with only a full-cock position. The only "safety" feature being to leave the frizzen (battery) in the forward position, away from the stricking hammer, till the need was anticipated. However, on this lock, there is a clever additional safety feature added. There is a swinging bar on the tail of the lockplate, when positioned rearward, blocks the trigger bar from any movement. This way, the lock/gun could be kept in the full, ready position during transport. Must have been considered a big improvement back then.
Anyway, you can probably see the details in these photos. One of the earliest lock designs to succed the wheellock.

Rick

[M ELEY]

This one from an auction site,already sold...

http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/dog.htm

[M ELEY]

Here we go again. Some are better, some not so great. After these, if there are any specific views anyone wants, let me know!
Mark

[M ELEY]

Note the stock end doesn't look like it ever had a butt plate. The lock looks snug with the stock, no gaps and the metal patina matches the barrel. I know we discussed that the lock might be a replacement, but I don't think so. The whole piece appears to be made as one piece.

[M ELEY]

Pics...

[M ELEY]

The last, I promise! Unless more requested, that is- :shrug:

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

Very good photos of the lock! Thank you for that.
First thing that struck me about it, is how Hard it looks. As in, case hardened.
Should be of course, but it looks like ceramic! Should wear very well if you stock it up.
Nice to see the 'simple' details. I want to make one at some time!

Did you get to try your toradar yet? Mine is getting better, but doesn't like patches.


Mark,

Thank you for the additional photos,...though some hurt my eyes!
Can't see any problems, maybe the odd screw replaced, nothing major.
Agreed it would never have had a buttplate.

Congrats again!

R.

[M ELEY]

Note that this musket isn't stamped. I know not all were, but is this any indication of where it was used? Wouldn't an English CW gun have the proper government marking? Export? To the Americas?

[rickystl]

This one from an auction site,already sold...

http://www.ambroseantiques.com/flongarms/dog.htm
Hi Mark.

Thanks for the Link. Notice the "general" stock profile on the one from the Ambrose site is similar to yours. He dates the piece to about 1650. Could be. But I would put it a bit closer to the 3rd Quarter of the 17th Century. Notice the common three screw lock. And the small exterior screw on the tail of the lock like yours.
But IMHO the lock on your's pre-dates the lock on the Ambrose gun. It's the best "transition" style of doglock I've seen. The really wide, flat pan and the very robust frizzen on your's is really neat. I was not refering that the lock on your gun was a replacement. The entire gun looks all made together. I was just saying it is possible that your gun was assembled maybe in the Third Quarter utilizing a lock that was already made sometime in the second-third quarter of the 17th Century. I do think your gun pre-dates the fourth quarter. It's certainly the earliest doglock I've ever seen.

Rick

[rickystl]

The last, I promise! Unless more requested, that is- :shrug:
Mark: Thanks so much for the additional photos. Yes, obvious it was originally made without a butt plate. Would not really be that unusual. Which also leads me to believe........while it may have seen military use or other actions, the lack of a butt plate, as well as other observations, make me think this gun was made for a private individule. It's certainly one of the more interesting guns I've ever seen.

If you get a chance, can you take a couple more photos of the frizzen and pan area from different angles ? Thanks.

Rick

[rickystl]

Rick,

Very good photos of the lock! Thank you for that.
First thing that struck me about it, is how Hard it looks. As in, case hardened.
Should be of course, but it looks like ceramic! Should wear very well if you stock it up.
Nice to see the 'simple' details. I want to make one at some time!

Did you get to try your toradar yet? Mine is getting better, but doesn't like patches.


Mark,

Thank you for the additional photos,...though some hurt my eyes!
Can't see any problems, maybe the odd screw replaced, nothing major.
Agreed it would never have had a buttplate.

Congrats again!

R.
Hi Richard.

All the "stress" parts of the lock are hardened. Which, as you mentioned you would want. Especially the sear on these horizontal sear locks, which is the weak point.
That "ceramic" look on the lock is just do to the parts not being polished out yet. That's just how the castings come out. Will look much better after polishing.

No. Believe it or not, I still have not had the Torador out yet. Can't seem to stop dabbling with other gun stuff to get to the range. :o

You might try a pre-greased wad with an over-powder card. Some guys like it better.

Rick

[rickystl]

OK. Here's another "transition" type of lock copied from an original in a private collection. This is called a Snaplock, from a Dutch/Swedish gun from about the first-second quarter of the 17th Century. Again, with the large proportions, this lock would have been fitted/refitted to a stock similar to a matchlock of the period.
Even with it's arcane look it functions quite well. It is a very simple design. You have to manually move the pan cover to expose the priming powder before firing, just like a matchlock. There is only a full cock position, with the only safety feature being to leave the frizzen in the forward postion until the anticipated need. While very simplistic, this lock would have been much preferred over a lit match from a matchlock. Just another variation of of the experimentation during the first half of the 17th Century.

By the way, I am currently having a gun made using this lock. Should be fun.

Rick

[rickystl]

AND A COUPLE MORE..........

[M ELEY]

"If you get a chance, can you take a couple more photos of the frizzen and pan area from different angles ? Thanks."

Rick



Absolutely, Rick, and this time with a cell phone that takes better pics than that crappy digital camera I bought. Once again, thank you for all of the information you have relayed to me about this piece. Also, thanks to Marcus, Richard, Fernando and Phillip for your comments and knowledge. It is not my specialty, so I will definitely be saving all your info for my records. Thanks!
Mark

[Pukka Bundook]

Mark,

It I sOur privilege to view this new gun of yours! Very hard to find in the wild!

Rick, Keep us posted on the build utilizing this lock.
It looks like it's uncle was a Baltic lock....
It also looks simple enough to build. I Must try one, hopefully Soon!
Is your lock based on this one? I had it saved as Must Make!

The Torador will do better with wads I'm thinking, as the little -short homemade Tusco-Emilian likes them. Yes, pre-lubed as you suggested!.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard

I am sure this Baltic lock is a close cousin of the one I posted. The similarities are unmistakable. One unique feature on the Baltic lock, which you can't see in this one photo, is the striking surface of the frizzen is "L" shaped. The L at the bottom of the frizzen being used as a pan cover. Must have been some of the first thoughts at making the frizzen and pan cover one piece construction.
Here is another Baltic lock showing this detail. As well, this lock still retains a matchlock style pan cover. LOL But it does show the continued experimentation of lock developement.

Rick

[rickystl]

Yet another "transition" style of lock. This is what is commonly referred to by collectors as the English lock. Sometimes referred to as the Jacobian lock.
Probably developed at/just before the early phase of the English Civil War period. Here we see the standardization of the frizzen and pan cover being one-piece construction. As well as the addition of the "dog" style external safety catch. Yet still retaining the horizontal sear, external hammer stop, and bridle arrangement from the snaphaunce lock period.
Progress was slow back in this period. But it never the less continued on it's way to the eventual "French" style flintlock.
Of interest, during the English Civil War period there would have been matchlocks, wheellocks, snaphaunces, English locks, and early forms of doglocks all being utilized at the same time. I'm sure that many matchlocks during this period were re-fitted with one of these lock variations.
This style of English lock must have been popular as there were locks/fragments found in diggings from the northest New England area of the USA.

Rick

[fernando]

End of context Rick ? ;) .

[rickystl]

End of context Rick ? ;) .
Hi Fernando.

LOL. Yes, I'll stop here. :D

Rick

[rickystl]

We'll wait for additional pics of Mark's lock. Thanks.

Rick

[M ELEY]

Will hopefully get more pics soon. In the meantime, here's another with very similar pan, screwed trigger guard and a spanner (?) over the frizzen...

http://www.icollector.com/Very-Rare-Dunster-Castle-Armoury-English-Doglock-Musket_i13751171

And another (boy, I hope mine could fetch these prices!!! :eek: )

http://www.icollector.com/British-Queen-Anne-Dog-Lock-Sea-Service-Musket_i11407154

[rickystl]

Will hopefully get more pics soon. In the meantime, here's another with very similar pan, screwed trigger guard and a spanner (?) over the frizzen...

http://www.icollector.com/Very-Rare-Dunster-Castle-Armoury-English-Doglock-Musket_i13751171

And another (boy, I hope mine could fetch these prices!!! :eek: )

http://www.icollector.com/British-Queen-Anne-Dog-Lock-Sea-Service-Musket_i11407154
Hi Mark.
Thanks for these two Links. These are two more excellant examples. On the second Link, with a 1711 date on the lock plate, which I'm sure is correct. Notice by this date the lock is now a bit more simplified and doing away with the bridle between the frizzen and frizzen spring. Also note the butt stock is now a bit more streamlined and less cumbursome. Advancement was slow during this period, but did continue.
The first Link, with the Dunster Castle gun, they give a date of about the early 1660's. This also seems correct. Note how similar the butt stock and other features are to your gun. Here, the lock has earlier features than the 1711 gun. The lock retaining it's wide, matchlock type pan, frizzen bridle, etc.
Which brings us to your gun. As mentioned, the stock design on your gun is very similar to the Dunster Castle gun. But the lock on your's: The external hammer stop is a carry-over from the earlier snaphaunce/English locks. Also the frizzen on your gun: While very robust looking, it appears the striking face portion is more narrow than the pan cover portion. Seems like a curious, early feature from the locksmith who built it.
So with the current evidence, one could reasonably speculate that your gun - or at least the lock - pre-dates the Dunster Castle gun a bit. If someone with more knowledge, told me that your gun would date to the late 1640's to 1650's period, I could reasonably agree with them. In any case, it certainly pre-dates 1670. It would be great if someone who is an expert with these early English doglock muskets could view this gun, along with some detailed photos, and offer their assesment.
Meantime, looking forward to any lock photos you can offer.
It's a wonderful aquisition Mark. The earliest example of a doglock I have seen.

Rick

[M ELEY]

Thanks again Rick, for your attention to this piece and your valued knowledge on the subject. The earlier dating (third quarter 17th c.) is a blessing, because it indeed places it in the time of the buccaneers previously mentioned (take that, Fernando!- :D ).

Here are the final pics, taken via a cellphone which works better than the digital camera! I can provide more if needed. Thanks to everyone for your interest...

[rickystl]

Hi Mark.

Oh, the pics from the cellphone are MUCH better. Thank you. I keep looking at that frizzen LOL. The design of the pan cover portion of the frizzen (and the pan itself) look like a carry-over from a matchlock. It is very robust looking.
Something else I noticed: There appears to be an empty hole between the rear of the hammer and the dog catch. Can you tell if that hole has threads in it ? All of these early dog locks I've seen were mounted using three lock plate screws. However, this gun has only two. And there doesn't seem to be any evidence from the stock that there were originally three. Curious. Possibly when the gun was assembled the gunsmith saw no need (or didn't have ?) a third screw and/or thought it unnessary (?)
Mark: Could I ask you for one more pic of the outside of the complete lock - using the cellphone ?

Rick

[fernando]

If i may stick my nose in, Mark ...
Rick, i am aware of the three lock screws meaning signs of earlier age but, is that a definite sign, or just an eventual one?
I realize my example is rather early but, it only has two screws. What would you make of it ?


.

[rickystl]

Hi Fernando.

Eventual would probably be the most accurate. The three screw lock seemed to be dominate on early guns/locks - of English manufacture. But it's not a hard fast rule. A good example would be the British, First Model Brown Bess musket of 1728 used only two screws. But the British Sea Service musket of about 1738 continued the use of three screws. I guess the third screw was eventually faded out and simply considered unnecessary.
That lock you just posted looks typical dog lock but with a bit of Spanish/Portugese influence. Very cool.
Occassionaly, you will find a later dog lock that has a half-cock saftey feature on the lock tumbler (like a regular flintlock) but still retaining a dog safety catch as an extra safety. Curious.

Rick

[fernando]

Much obliged for your notes, Rick.

[M ELEY]

Hello Rick,

In regards to the hole between the hammer and catch, yes, it appears to be threaded. On the direct opposite side of the lock, corresponding to where this "screw" would thread through, there is a very small hole in the wood. I'm assuming this is where it would have threaded through if it were ever accessed? (it never was, apparently). I'll take that last picture soon and thanks again-
Mark

[fernando]

...The three screw lock seemed to be dominate on early guns/locks - of English manufacture. But it's not a hard fast rule...
You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


.

[rickystl]

Hello Rick,

In regards to the hole between the hammer and catch, yes, it appears to be threaded. On the direct opposite side of the lock, corresponding to where this "screw" would thread through, there is a very small hole in the wood. I'm assuming this is where it would have threaded through if it were ever accessed? (it never was, apparently). I'll take that last picture soon and thanks again-
Mark
Hi Mark.

OK. So the lock itself was built to accept three plate screws, as would be common for these early locks. For whatever reason, who ever assembled the gun felt it unessesary to use the third screw. Or didn't have one available LOL
The two plate screws and the tiny screw on the outside of the lock plate tail being sufficient. With the exception of the tiny hole you mention, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it ever having the third hole. Curious.

Anyway. If you can, a photos of the lock interior would be really interesting.

Thanks, Rick.

[rickystl]

You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


.
Hi Fernando.

WOW!!!! That is a very cool Portugese lock on that blunderbuss. And looks very early. Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. The three screw system was likely to accomodate the longer lockplates of the earlier guns. Also, during earlier times, it would have been easier to forge parts of larger proportions than smaller.

Rick

[rickystl]

You are right; this system has also been an option in this side of the canal.
This blunderbuss i locally acquired the other day has such lock fixation method. Also we can see in works like ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA that, the three screw system was used over here as early as from the XVI century. Perhaps early locksmiths saw it as a need to better fix lengthier plates, the Portuguese "molinhas", being a good example .


.
Hi Fernando.

WOW!!!! That is a very cool Portugese lock on that blunderbuss. And looks very early. Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. The three screw system was likely to accomodate the longer lockplates of the earlier guns. Also, during earlier times, it would have been easier to forge parts of larger proportions than smaller.

Rick

[fernando]

... Hope you start a seperate thread with the whole gun ...
I already did, some time go ... HERE (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22613)

[rickystl]

I already did, some time go ... HERE (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22613)
Oh my. Somehow I missed this Thread. Thanks. Very interesting reading. And my belated congratulations for finally having the piece in your own collection.
By the way, you will occassionally see these frizzen spring shields on Ottoman/Eastern guns. I've seen them on both miquelet and flintlocks.

Thanks again for the Link.

Rick

[fernando]

Thank you Rick.
Your note on the frizzen spring shield noted.