Collection of Sajen

[Kulino]

Dear all,

Lately I’ve become custodian of a substantial number of keris sajen, jimat and kudi.
What to do with this collection without breaking it up is a valid question. Museums won’t be interested in a collection, maybe in the odd one. Repatriating is not a real option for obvious reasons.
There seems to be a rapidly shifting interest, from antiques in general and keris more specific to, maybe modern art? The number of baby boom collectors is decreasing; substantial collections are being sold off, raising very little interest. I’ve had this discussion with friends. A keris or any other collector item has a monetary value but more importantly, also a cultural value. What is left of that if there is no one to share this with? Can we remedy this in any way, apart from sharing our interests on this forum ? ( Maybe not in the first place to protect the monetary value although to some of use that might be a concern as well. )
I would like to start a discussion about this problem which may concern more of us. For all good purposes, this collection is not for sale.

Next I would like to share the keris part of this collection with you. At least if there is enough interest in it. This is to open it up for study purposes, but also to charm you by these intriguing keris. This collection of about 86 sajen has never been published or shown in any way to other collectors. It was collected over the last 50 to 60 years here in the Netherlands and on Java. There are old ones and recent ones. Some were added to the collection to serve as study material to compare old and new. Genuine or different, I leave that to your esteemed judgement. Mr.Theo Alkema nor members of any keris study club have ever seen this collection. The collection resides in the Netherlands. As long as there is enough interest I will keep on posting. If there are collectors out there who are interested in the jimat and kudi (about 60), I will start a new string on the other forum. Please ask me to do so.
To any person who really is studying this type of keris; I will consider questions about taking additional pictures of details. However, since I still have a regular job, you have to grant me time to accommodate.
Best,
Kulino

[David]

Thanks for starting this off with a couple of examples from this collection.
I am not sure what the over all interest will be, but i do know that there are a few members like myself and Alan Maisey who have a great interest in these, though admittedly i cannot say that i have much great knowledge on them beyond reading Theo's book and intermittent discussions on this forum.
I cannot tell for sure, but does that first example also display picit elements (finger impressions along the blade)?
You might want you look though our archives on discussions we have previously had on keris sajen. Here is one link, but you will find others, both under "keris sajen" and the misnomered tag "keris majapahit".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10149&highlight=putut

[Kulino]

Dear David,
Thanks for the link. I came across it earlier. BTW, both keris have picit.
I've added the next set of two keris.
I have to appologise for the somewhat unsharp close up pictures. Again if that is a problem and some one would like to have better images to study, I'll see to it. For now I'll leave it to it.

[Sajen]

Next I would like to share the keris part of this collection with you. At least if there is enough interest in it. The collection resides in the Netherlands. As long as there is enough interest I will keep on posting.


Hello Kulino,

I for my part are very interested to see the complete collection, I like this small keris sajen very much and have byself a small collection of them, see the link David has posted. Thank you very much for sharing.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Please do keep going. :)

[kai]

Hello Kulino,

I'm with the others and applaud to your efforts to share the whole collection with us! I'd also be very interested in the jimat and kudi - it's rare to see good examples of these, too!

Could you possibly tell us more on the background of the original collector? It does seem that he was especially into the metaphysical side of things?


Regarding discussing the fate of "our" collections that we're currently taking care of, maybe this would be good to discuss in this dedicated thread here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22474

While discussing the pieces on this forum allows for additional info and welcome interaction, it may also be an option to put up a dedicated website presenting and virtually preserving the full collection in a somewhat more structured approach. This has already been done for our late long-time forumite Lew:
http://www.vikingsword.com/lew/index.html

Regards,
Kai

[Kulino]

Dear Detlef,
Thanks for the links. The one about what to do next, is focussing on selling it , which is an alternative. When my friend and I talked about what to do with it, his preference clearly was to keep it together. That would be my first goal. We also talked about how to promote interest. Our idea is that in order to raise this, you have to able to fall in love with quality pieces. This seems to be contradictive to the keeping together idea.

[Kulino]

Next batch

[Sajen]

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Kai,

do you have changed your name because you like my one more? :D :D :D ;)

Best,
Detlef

[Kulino]

Saw that too, got a bit confused. I gather Kai send me the reply with the links and not Detlef? Sorry for my misnaming. :(

[Jean]

Hello Kulino,
Thank you for posting the pics of these nice and rare pieces with different designs. Has anybody an opinion about the estimated age of these pieces, personally I am totally confused about it although it may not be considered as important.
Regards :)

[Kulino]

Hello Jean,
As far as I understand, although these keris are named and dated as keris Majapahit, this must be considered a misconception. Indeed the one found inside one of the stupa op Borobudur (now in the collection of Theo Alkema) might be an indication of when they were made. However, there is no reason why they couldn't have been made earlier or later. Among others, Theo Alkema ( Book: Iron Ancestors) and Martin Kerner (A statistic study on the morphology of keris) come to the same conclusion: There is no certain way of telling how old they might be. When I was at Martin Kerner's home I handled a proto keris ( as depicted on candi Suku). It was dug up from the slopes of the inside Bromo krater. He had this specimen carbon dated. The conclusion was (within a certain time frame), around 800 ad.
The Knaud keris has not been subjected to this kind of testing, there is only a year indication. Apart from these more or less subjective indications, there is no certainty.
When my friend collector and I discussed this, we tried to be open minded and be guided by what we saw’. By looking at the individual keris and by comparing among others, skin, material, wear, weight, figurine posture, tilt, squat, head attire, face, body decorations, one might conclude that one keris is part of a group and the one group could be older than the other. The wear could be a problem. Has this keris, tosan aji, been dug up, been taken care of properly, placed in the stream of a sawa, revered as pusaka? The same approach can be used when looking at the Jimat and Kudi published on the other forum. As indicated earlier, there has already been an extensive discussion and a link to Alan Maisey’s site with lots of information. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=putut

[Kulino]

Next batch.

[Kulino]

Box 2 overview

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

do you have changed your name because you like my one more? :D
Possibly, or it might have been a Freudian slip since a keris sajen that had already my name on it found its way to you by accident... ;)

Regards,
Kai "a rose by any other name..." :rolleyes:

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,


Possibly, or it might have been a Freudian slip since a keris sajen that had already my name on it found its way to you by accident... ;)

Regards,
Kai "a rose by any other name..." :rolleyes:


:D :D :cool:

[Kulino]

BTW Box 1 contains Jimat, so Sajen started with box 2.
For the sake of speed, I'll limit the amout of pictures of each keris to1, instead of three.

[Kulino]

Second part of box 3

[Kulino]

Third part of box 3. Plus overview

[Kulino]

Box 4.1. Pretty sure there some and not old copies in this part.

[Kulino]

Next part

[Kulino]

Last part of this box

[Jean]

Hello Kulino,
Museum collection, congratulations! Your pics are clear but you should try to minimize the light reflection on the individual pics in order to better see the blades surface (pamor pattern, picit, hilt face, etc) The group pics are basically OK.
Regards

[Kulino]

Thank you Jean, I'll take your advise under consideration when additional pictures are asked. For now, all these pictures were taken by using an IPhone and by putting the boxes on the table top in the garden. No studio circumstances indeed.

[Kulino]

Dear all,
I'm stopping the posting, since I'm the only one still visiting this string.
Should there be a (re)new(ed) interest I will consider continuation.

[Bob A]

Lack of posting does not necessarily mean lack of interest.

An assemblage of such items is useful in several ways. It serves as a reference source, delineates variation within types as well as depicting the varying types themselves, stimulates interest in those who have little or no exposure to the objects in question, for just a few examples of utility.

While I have none of these items, I found it of interest to view your collection, and I'm grateful for your efforts.

[David]

Lack of posting does not necessarily mean lack of interest.

An assemblage of such items is useful in several ways. It serves as a reference source, delineates variation within types as well as depicting the varying types themselves, stimulates interest in those who have little or no exposure to the objects in question, for just a few examples of utility.

While I have none of these items, I found it of interest to view your collection, and I'm grateful for your efforts.
I will second everything that Bob has stated here.
People will visit more as you add more. I think most collectors don't actually know enough about this form of keris to have much top comment on at the moment. As you have stated, knowing or understanding the approximate age and purpose of each of these keris sajen is difficult at best. You have a great variance of style and form present and i am not sure anyone here, with the exception of perhaps Alan Maisey, has researched these well enough to have much of any relevant value to add to the discussion. I am a bit surprised he has not made any comments here yet.
You might also look at this a different way though. By uploading to this site you are creating an archive of images of these lesser known and discussed objects of keris culture in a place that is frequented by a great number of people who are indeed interested in the study of keris. Even if they generate only a small amount of discussion in the moment this archive of images could become a valuable resource for future researchers as well as the current crop of collectors we have with us at this time. I would encourage you to continue the presentation process if you have the will and thank you for your efforts so far. :)

[Jean]

Hello Kulino,
I am also very interested by this thread and amazed by the diversity of your pieces. You should focus on the number of views rather than the reply posts as most of us have no relevant comment to make, but we are enjoying the pics!
And if you intend to publish a catalogue or book, I am reserving one copy!
Of course if you know anything about the origin of some of these pieces, please tell us!
Regards :)

[Sajen]

Hello Kulino,

agree with the above made statements! Over 300 views in such short time shows that there is a great interest!

Best regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the reason I have not made any comment is because I have no comment to make. There is a page in my site where I have put some photos of these small talismanic keris, but even there I have virtually nothing to say about them.

Here below is most of the text from that page, it says probably everything of any value that I can say about this keris form:-

" These are not weapons in any sense other than being weapons to guard against misfortune, they are not weapons intended to be used against humanity.

In a sense, this could probably be called a "non-information" page. Not enough is known about these items of wesi aji to allow a definitive discourse on them. My purpose in making these photos available is to assist researchers in this field.

The items hereunder that resemble a keris are known as "keris sajen" in Indonesia, and by many collectors in the western world as "keris Majapahit". The keris sajen is reportedly a keris used in offerings, notably the ceremony of bersih desa which is carried out after the major rice harvest (panen raya). Dates for the harvest can vary, and each village has its own day and own requirements for bersih desa, so offerings can change from village to village.

In the ceremonies I have seen, no keris sajen has been used. Suryo Negoro in his book "Javanese Traditional and Ritual Ceremonies" describes the general form of bersih desa and mentions two other forms specific to individual villages. Nowhere does he describe the inclusion of a keris in these ceremonies. Bambang Harsrinuksmo in "Ensiklopedi Keris" claims use of this keris form in the ceremony of bersih desa, and other writers have also claimed this. It is possible that some villages could have the requirement for a keris sajen to be included in the ceremony and other villages not have this requirement.

David van Duuren records that in the colonial days, these small keris were known as talismanic weapons.

My own observance has been that present day Javanese regard them as talismanic objects.

At the present time insufficient research has been carried out in relation to this form of wesi aji to allow any certain definition of their place in Indonesian or Javanese culture.

In respect of the age of keris sajen in general, and this is also true of the examples shown here , it is not possible to be at all certain of how old any particular item may be. The form is clearly an ancient one, and an example was found under the central stupa of Candi Borobudur during its restoration, however, whether it was placed there at the time Borobudur was built, or at a later date, we do not know. However, although ancient, it is doubtful if the form can be linked to Dongson daggers with similar handles. The time gap between Dongson culture and early classical Javanese culture is too great.

Some writers have attempted to classify this form of wesi aji into types and sub-types, and wish to make true weapons of the longer examples of the keris sajen. I do not intend to attempt any such classification. Too little is known of these objects for such a classification to be of very much use. The design of the gonjo of the longer examples would seem to indicate that these were not intended for use as a real weapon, any more than was the shorter version. Anybody using one of these long examples as a weapon would be likely to do severe injury to their own hand, because of the narrowness of the gonjo.

I think it is highly probable that the alternate keris sajen as in #'s 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, were forged from recycled old keris blades. Further, I believe that recycled old keris blades were sometimes used in the manufacture of certain other talismanic keris, those with the handle forge welded to the base of the blade. Whether this was done simply as a use of recycled material, whether to preserve a valued blade, whether to save costs, or for all these reasons, we have no way of knowing.

Apart from those items of wesi aji that are positively identifiable as keris sajen, a number of other items of talismanic wesi aji are also shown here. Some are keris-like, with the handle in a different plane to the blade, one is of cunderik form.

I regret that I am unable to provide more information on these talismanic objects, however, I am open to questions or discussion in respect of them."

This link will take you to photos of keris sajen in my site:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html

[David]

I think it is highly probable that the alternate keris sajen as in #'s 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, were forged from recycled old keris blades. Further, I believe that recycled old keris blades were sometimes used in the manufacture of certain other talismanic keris, those with the handle forge welded to the base of the blade. Whether this was done simply as a use of recycled material, whether to preserve a valued blade, whether to save costs, or for all these reasons, we have no way of knowing.

Apart from those items of wesi aji that are positively identifiable as keris sajen, a number of other items of talismanic wesi aji are also shown here. Some are keris-like, with the handle in a different plane to the blade, one is of cunderik form.

I regret that I am unable to provide more information on these talismanic objects, however, I am open to questions or discussion in respect of them."

This link will take you to photos of keris sajen in my site:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html
Thanks Alan. Having been to your linked page above many times i was well aware that you didn't have much solid information to add to a discussion keris sajen in general, though i thought you might have some comments on some of Kulino's individual pieces. While what you have copied from your website above solves no riddles and answers few questions it does present a platform from which some further discussion might take place. You have said what can be said with assurity, but perhaps it can inspire some thought and further researching.Though the link to your page had already been presented i don't assume that everybody noticed or followed the link to it and i like having your words from that page here for our own archival purposes. I would not have assumed to copy and paste them myself so thank you for added them here.
I should note, just to avoid any possible confusion, that the keris sajen you are specially referring to in the quoted part above in this post refer directly to the keris sajen on your page, not the ones Kulino has uploaded. :)

[Kulino]

Dear all,
Thank you for your feedback. I'll continue with the remainder of the collection.
Again, many things have been said about this type of keris but virtually none of these statements can be supporten by facts. I agree wit Alan's observation about the recylced blades. These and maybe more were added to the collection to show variety. It doesn't say anything about the extent these specific keris were revered and maybe also nothing about their age. In this box there is at least one which I consider to be recent. ( The one with the detailed hermit/putut is well made but recent.) When the collection boxes are done I'll post a couple of keris in their own 'shrine' boxes as they were collected.

[Kulino]

Next batch

[Kulino]

Next. Most of these are fairly log.

[Kulino]

Dear all,
The next couple of posts will be of sajen which came in special boxes, sometimes linened with velvet or other fabrics, with a headrest and accompanied by special stone, dried flowers, padi, etc. There is even one with a thank you letter supposedly signed by PB XII. Pity I can't show the scented oils...

[Kulino]

Dear all,
This concludes the posting of this collection. My dear friend who collected these keris over the time of his life was a very private person. I'm sure he would have hated it that I would mention his name. Nevertheless I don't see any other way to give him the credits he so deserves publicly. Cees Hendriks, thank you for your friendship, for entrusting me with this legacy and for so many things more.

I hope you will honour his memory by using this database in a good way. For generating knowledge, understanding and preserving this wonderful cultural heritage within its context.
If you have questions or special requests concerning this collection, I will try to accommodate.

Kulino

[Kulino]

To conclude this posting of pictures of sajen, I'll add the one which was which I posted earlier.

[Sajen]

Hello Kulino,

thank you very much for continue this thread and for sharing this magnificent collection with us, also the in the other forum.
Cees Hendriks has put a great collection together, may your friend rest in peace!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

I second Sajen's comment, what a fantastic collection, my congratulations and also to your late friend Cees Hendriks!
It deserves to be shown in an exhibition or at least a catalogue or book for the benefit of all the collectors!
Regards
Jean

[David]

I must concur with my fellows here. For me these are always great to see even if it is difficult to come up with any solid information about them.
This is obviously an old form that i would image probably predates the Mojopahit era that they were once named for. It does seem that they continued to create these little talismanic blades over many centuries without much change so it is indeed difficult to place them into any particular time period with much accuracy. Certainly i believe the in post #32 with the separate gonjo and greneng is a fairly recent example and may or may not have been created solely as an "art" piece. However, if i am not mistaken, even keris sajen that are more recent (created within the last 200 years) may well have been made for genuine talismanic purposes so i don't necessarily discount these newer examples as reproductions or copies, just a continuance of an old tradition. Certainly 18th and 19th century examples of keris sajen were not being made for collector consumption.
On dating these beyond aspects of wear and condition it seems likely that the simpler examples are more likely older. I think the earliest examples tend to be pamor-less, small and very basic. Later examples began to add pamor and sometimes more extensive ricikan. This is an awesome collection of the variance of the form over a number of centuries. Thanks so much for continuing to show them. :)

[Kulino]

Dear all,

Thank you for your kind words. I know that by showing this collection I did something Cees never would have done. Still, it felt the right thing to do for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
If someone has suggestions to make the ideas of Jean happen, I'm willing to talk.

[David]

If someone has suggestions to make the ideas of Jean happen, I'm willing to talk.
I would be very interested in a published catalog of these little beauties, though it would probably be more a labor of love that you would be luck to break even on at best. If that is the idea of Jean's that you are considering the first thing you need to do is to create some much better, professional quality images of these blades of the level seen in Iron Ancestors. As a professional photographer i would be more than happy to undertake such a task, however, living so far away that would be just a bit difficult...unless, of course, members here would subsidize my expenses...LOL! ;)
As for an exhibition, you probably live in a better part of the world than most to find a museum that might be interested in presenting such a showing. I'm not sure if an exhibition dedicated solely to this type of keris and related talismanic blades has ever been mounted before, which might be an advantage. Anyway, i'm sure you know who the right curators might be in your country to find if there is any interest in such a show.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kulino for making images of these keris sajen available to us.

I regret I have been unable to make any constructive comments on the images you have posted, but I will add a couple of comments now.

In respect of determination of age, there is a belief amongst some people who have looked closely at the keris sajen, that the head of the hilt figure may give an indication of age. Many hilt figures show some sort of head apparel, a hat, cap or something, the belief is that identification of the head-gear might point towards the period.

The image of a figure with a European style hat tells its own story, and something very unusual about this figure is that the orientation of the blade is reversed.

In the past some people have attempted to paint the keris sajen as a direct continuation of a Dongson knife that had a figural hilt, but to me this seems extremely unlikely as direct cultural links cannot be shown, and the gap between the Dongson era and the Javanese early Classical era is simply too great.

The keris sajen reflects the form of the Modern keris, which means that the keris sajen did not develop as a cultural artifact until after the Modern Keris appeared, which the evidence seems to indicate as circa 14th century, and after the keris penetrated Javanese society as a whole and became endowed with talismanic qualities in its general form, and this seems not to have occurred until after the Islamization of Jawa.

The complete argument against the extreme age of the keris sajen is very lengthy, and here is not the place for it.

The image I have placed into this post that is from Kulino's earlier posting deserves special attention, because the hilt form is an echo of the Dongson form. Although this gives an appearance of age in the image posted, I do have very strong and very well grounded doubts about the true age of this example

[Kulino]

Hi Alan,
I whole heartily agree with your comment. I handled Dongson blades and this one is very probable a recent copy. The figure is poorly detailed, the patina is wrong, the weight is wrong. Cees and I agreed on that.
I showed it because it is part of the collection where it served as a reference to compare for instance with pic 15/16 of the collection. We believed that to be a nice old example which echoes something of the Dongson.
We also underlined the point your making too on the probable time gap between Dongson and this keris.) The issue of different time frames (bronze age and iron age) stays, although there are plenty of examples of blades that seem to break that rule.) This blade shown was posted before (string about bronze keris)

About the issue of making better pictures of the blades, I will try to ask around. A friend of mine is also a professional photographer. Normally he would not charge me anything but this could turn out to be an extensive project. I'll keep you posted.

As for an exhibition, maybe Theo Alkema has the right connection. I pretty sure David van Duuren and Theo know each other. But even with that contact it never has come to something like a dedicated exhibition. Who would take the trip anyway, apart from a few specialists?

[David]

Hi Kulino. I am afraid i don't see anything in your last post that explains the appearance of your photos of this rather unusual and atypical blade you are showing here. Did you mean to write more or did you mistakenly edit out a paragraph? :confused: :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Kulino, Dongson culture was centered in Northern Vietnam, with the bronze technology connected to Southern China. It was mainland SE Asia and yes, it was Bronze Age. However, in Maritime SE Asia the Bronze Age and the Iron Age both arrived and proceeded in parallel, they were not distinct eras in Maritime SE Asia, but existed during the same era.

So we do see bronze and iron artefacts produced alongside one another during the same span of years. We also see bronze artefacts that are identifiable as Dongson, or maybe Southern China, spread right across Maritime SE Asia, even as far as New Guinea. There also seems to be some evidence that the famous Dongson drums were copied in the Archipelago, at least in Bali.

However, the Dongson : keris connection is just a bit too imaginative, I think. By the time the proto keris appeared in Jawa, Dongson was out of the picture for a very long time, like minimum 800 years. That is simply too long for any cultural transfer.

When we take into account that the keris sajen form is an echo of the Modern Keris, rather than the proto-keris, that 800 year time gap stretches out to around 1200 years.


Then there is the vast stylistic difference between the Dongson knives and the keris sajen form. There is not any identifiable relationship. The only thing in common between Keris Sajen and Dongson knives is that they both have an integral figural hilt. So we can possibly find a common thread that runs all through SE Asia, and beyond, for the inclusion of ancestor figures and protective figures incorporated into weapons and talismans, but we cannot support a direct connection between Dongson knives and keris sajen.

In my opinion there is not the slightest doubt that the keris sajen did not come into being until after the end of the 15th century.

I think there is a place in a collection such as you have shown, for recent examples , and the one in Dongson style is a good comparative example, but I am quite certain that it was not produced as a true KS.

Away and apart from keris discussion, here is something else to throw into the mix. For many years there has been a small, but active cottage industry in the production of absolutely correct early Javanese bronze artefacts. The bronze material used to produce these superb forgeries is obtained from genuine old bronzes that are badly damaged, and from damaged old gamelan instruments. Unlike a lot of things that are produced as copies of antique and archaic artefacts, these bronzes are forgeries right from the very beginning, and they are impossible to differentiate from the genuine article, except perhaps by laboratory examination.

[Kulino]

Hi David,
I posted this blade as an example to illustrate that the gap between Bronze Age (Dongson) and Iron Age was not as absolute as one might think. The bronze blade I posted is there an example of. I refered here also to the earlier link that was about bronze keris.

[David]

Hi David,
I posted this blade as an example to illustrate that the gap between Bronze Age (Dongson) and Iron Age was not as absolute as one might think. The bronze blade I posted is there an example of. I refered here also to the earlier link that was about bronze keris.
Sorry Kulino, but i missed that reference in your post and you did not post a link to that discussion on bronze keris. I did after some searching find that thread where you originally posted that blade, but it seems it came right at the end of the thread and there was never any discussion on it AFAIK.
You wrote:
We also underlined the point your making too on the probable time gap between Dongson and this keris.) The issue of different time frames (bronze age and iron age) stays, although there are plenty of examples of blades that seem to break that rule.) This blade shown was posted before (string about bronze keris).
Are you suggesting that you believe this odd bronze blade was created in the gap between the bronze and iron ages because i really don't think this object is nearly that old? There is indeed a history of bronze keris, but these were made well into the iron age for (as i understand it) specific talismanic purposes and i cannot see how the existence of such weapons bears any relation or connection to Dongson era daggers. :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Van Heekeren H.R., "The Bronze-Iron Age of Indonesia", Martinus Nijhoff, 1958.


https://archive.org/stream/BronzeIronAgeOfIndonesia/Bronze-Iron%20Age%20of%20Indonesia_djvu.txt


This is an old work, but it did set the foundation for further investigation. Within the archaeological community it did create some dispute, and even amongst those who supported Van Heekeren there was far from universal agreement with everything he wrote. However, for our very limited purposes the proposition that iron and bronze technology progressed together, during the same period of time, in Maritime SE Asia, holds true.

[Kulino]

Sorry Kulino, but i missed that reference in your post and you did not post a link to that discussion on bronze keris. I did after some searching find that thread where you originally posted that blade, but it seems it came right at the end of the thread and there was never any discussion on it AFAIK.
You wrote:
We also underlined the point your making too on the probable time gap between Dongson and this keris.) The issue of different time frames (bronze age and iron age) stays, although there are plenty of examples of blades that seem to break that rule.) This blade shown was posted before (string about bronze keris).
Are you suggesting that you believe this odd bronze blade was created in the gap between the bronze and iron ages because i really don't think this object is nearly that old? There is indeed a history of bronze keris, but these were made well into the iron age for (as i understand it) specific talismanic purposes and i cannot see how the existence of such weapons bears any relation or connection to Dongson era daggers. :shrug:

Hi David, I'm not suggesting the depicted bronze is that old, merely stating that there probably was an overlap between Iron and Bronze Age. This bronze could date back as far as Majapahit. The shape resembles the heads of sceptres which date back to that period. First I thought this was a fragment with a missing ganja. Got also confused by the strange patina. Alan pointed me at this possibility by sending me pictures from a catalogue. While searching in my librabry I found the same pictures but again, there’s no way to be certain.

[TikusLaut]

Hello, this would be my first post in the forum, and I must admit I am hesitant, not being confident in my limited knowledge of rather a confusing subject. However, I am interested in the differences between the examples Sajen has shared, and the early excavated examples I am familiar with, (I apologise for the low quality of the figure included) in which the figures are standing rather than seated, more similar to the (admittedly limited number) of dongson hilts I have seen. I wonder what could account for this, and if one group could be identified as older, or of a different region.

Also, I might add, whatever relevance it might have: Bapah Kadir has suggested that the examples found in the area of east Java are characterized by a slight inclination of the head to the right, versus those from west Java are more uniformly upright.

Finally, although somewhat unrelated: I recently read that princess Darawati, (Dwarawati, or Anarawati) who married Kertawijaya (Brawijaya V, or Angka Vijaya?) in the 15th century may not have been from Champa at all, but rather from south Sumatra... I do not know if it's ok to link the blog which asserts this. I would be curious if anyone else has an opinion on the matter.

Ok, I hope my first post remained faux pas free!
-Alex

[David]

Hello, this would be my first post in the forum, and I must admit I am hesitant, not being confident in my limited knowledge of rather a confusing subject. However, I am interested in the differences between the examples Sajen has shared, and the early excavated examples I am familiar with, (I apologise for the low quality of the figure included) in which the figures are standing rather than seated, more similar to the (admittedly limited number) of dongson hilts I have seen. I wonder what could account for this, and if one group could be identified as older, or of a different region.

Also, I might add, whatever relevance it might have: Bapah Kadir has suggested that the examples found in the area of east Java are characterized by a slight inclination of the head to the right, versus those from west Java are more uniformly upright.

Finally, although somewhat unrelated: I recently read that princess Darawati, (Dwarawati, or Anarawati) who married Kertawijaya (Brawijaya V, or Angka Vijaya?) in the 15th century may not have been from Champa at all, but rather from south Sumatra... I do not know if it's ok to link the blog which asserts this. I would be curious if anyone else has an opinion on the matter.

Ok, I hope my first post remained faux pas free!
-Alex
Hi Alex. Welcome to the forum. Don't worry, i think we all find this subject a wee bit confusing. The information you have added is interesting if it can be verified. Though i must admit my ignorance of who Bapah Kadir is and what evidence be presents to affirm this claim.
As for your last bit, it is certainly alright to link to blogs and other none commercial sites within a discussion, however i don't quite see how the marriage of princess Darawati and Kertawijaya is pertinent to this particular conversation. ;)

[TikusLaut]

Thanks for your response! Bapah Kadir is just someone with a collection of old Sajen who knew the archaeological source of each piece, and suggested that differentiation. I thought it worth mentioning for anyone who has some Sajen and knows where they came from, so that they could look for this inclination of the "head" and possibly verify or refute the notion.

As for princess Darawati, I thought that maybe if she was from Champa, we could then begin to see if certain motifs or items originating from Champa were introduced to Majapahit art at that time. Then we could look at the age of those forms, or otherwise to see if any of those forms survived within the region that Dongson daggers have been found between the time that they were produced and the 15th c. If we saw that there was an influence from Champa at that time, it might be a piece of the puzzle at least to discovering where the idea for the "sajen" began. Of course all of that might only be worth looking into if there were first some indication of interaction between the empires, e.g. intermarriage, and might be a bit of a waste of time if it turned out that what we thought was a royal connection was in fact just between south Sumatra and Majapahit. So for your consideration: https://nusantarahistory.wordpress.com/tag/darawati/
https://nusantarahistory.wordpress.com/tag/darawati/