Silver Keris

[Roland_M]

Hello,

As promised, here is my Silver-Keris. I believe it is a Bali-Keris.

I don't wanna say too much, just listening to the opinions of other collectors.

What I can say is that hilt, scabbard and blade are of good quality. The golden layer on the blade is very thick, around 1/10 mm or more. Thick enough to hide some details of the figurine. Modern gold leaf is between 1/3000 (the thickest type) and 1/9000 mm thick. This means modern gold leaf is around 300 times thinner than this.

Now I'm really interessted, to read some opinions.


Best wishes,
Roland

[Roland_M]

more objects of photography

[Jean]

Hello Roland,
Nice kris but not traditional Balinese IMO, especially the sandang walikat scabbard with added buntut.
Regards

[Jean]

Hello Roland,
The kinatah technique does not use gold leaf.
Regards

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Roland,

I am probably one of the less knowledgeable people here, but to me, this keris looks fairly new. :shrug:

[Roland_M]

Hello Roland,
The kinatah technique does not use gold leaf.
Regards

Hello Jean,

thank you for your opinion, it is helpful for me.

From the Internet: "On blades from Malaysia, Kinatah is a relief decoration on a blade of the highest order."


Regards

[Sajen]

I know and have handled the keris Roland own already longer several times and have Roland always told that this keris is very unusual and don't show traditional Bali work, this for dress and handle. The blade is an other object but in short, it's also not what I would think to see by a good old Bali blade.

Like all can see by the pictures Roland has posted is the quality of the silver work a very good one but I am unsure where done. The motives are like stated from Jean already are not Balinese style. But when you look to the pictures carefully (see in down) you can see the wooden core, the wood is old and very dry, this is nothing what I would to see by a recent worked scabbard. Also the overall impression let me think to see a fairly old piece in all parts in front of me.
By my visit to the Hollenstedt Exhibition I have had the chance to handle to more keris where the scabbard was worked in exactly the same manner, I am sure they coming all from the same workshop. One of this other two pieces has had a similar worked blade like the one from Roland without gandik figure and kinatah, the other one has had a fairly good worked older Bali blade. Also by this both examples was the wooden core visible and show good age. So I think that this pieces get worked wherever as earliest end of 19th century until latest the thirties.
Like said before, I am very very unsure where this three pieces get worked. :shrug:

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

thank you for your opinion, it is helpful for me.

From the Internet: "On blades from Malaysia, Kinatah is a relief decoration on a blade of the highest order."


Regards

Hello Roland,
I mean that kinatah is made from gold sheet (thicker than leaf). Yes, original kinatah blades are generally of high quality.
As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.
Regards

[Sajen]

As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.

Hello Jean,

yes, so far I can see it it could be indeed the same workshop.

BTW, great book from you, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Jean,

As you have my book you can find a rather similar silver pendok on pic 3.15, page 201.
Considering that your book is already sold out, it might be a good idea to post a pic of your keris here, too… ;)

Regards,
Kai

[David]

yes, so far I can see it it could be indeed the same workshop.
I don't know. From what i can see of the pendok in Jean's book (there is no detail shot of it) it would seem a bit of a leap to identify it as coming from the same workshop. Both the stem of this sheath and Jean's pendok use a vegetal pattern, but from what i can see it does not appear to be the same foliage motif. They could very well use the same silver working technique, but i would have to see Jean's example closer to tell. I do agree with Kai that if we are to make such comparisons it would be nice if Jean could upload a photo or two of his pendok to make that easier.
It is interesting though that both these works in silver seem to appear on what we would otherwise assume were Bali keris even if the workmanship of the dress appears otherwise. Is it possible this silver work could be a product of Lombok? Could that explain the other flavors we are detecting in these forms of dress?

[Jean]

I don't know. From what i can see of the pendok in Jean's book (there is no detail shot of it) it would seem a bit of a leap to identify it as coming from the same workshop. Both the stem of this sheath and Jean's pendok use a vegetal pattern, but from what i can see it does not appear to be the same foliage motif. They could very well use the same silver working technique, but i would have to see Jean's example closer to tell. I do agree with Kai that if we are to make such comparisons it would be nice if Jean could upload a photo or two of his pendok to make that easier.
It is interesting though that both these works in silver seem to appear on what we would otherwise assume were Bali keris even if the workmanship of the dress appears otherwise. Is it possible this silverware could be a product of Lombok? Could that explain the other flavors we are detecting in these forms of dress?

Hello David,
I am not at home so I can only show this pic of my pendok. Athough I see some similarities with the one from Roland (buntut), the style of floral engraving and silver quality are different indeed. I got this piece separately from the kris itself but it was fitted on another Bali/ Lombok scabbard. I would also place the origin of my piece to Lombok or Sumbawa (Bugis influence).
Regards

[mariusgmioc]

Hello guys,

There was much discussed about the dress of the keris but very little about the keris itself.

To me, this keris looks very new (max 10 years) and very Javanese and definitely not Balinese.

Am I right?! Am I wrong?! :shrug:

PS: I find the hilt absolutely fascinating with respect to artistic craftmanship, albeit I am aware it is not in the traditional style. :)

[Roland_M]

To me, this keris looks very new (max 10 years) and very Javanese and definitely not Balinese.

Am I right?! Am I wrong?! :shrug:



Hello,

The pictures were made with a modern DSLR, the Nikon D7000 plus a high quality lens. Every picture has seen different automatic algorithms to increase the picture quality, without any possibility of influence by the user. The D7000 doesnt allow to use the raw-data. What I try to say is that pictures of old artifacts taken with a modern DSLR like this are always looks more modern than they are, always!

1: The scabbard of this Keris has been worn without any question with the typical signs of strain in the middle of the scabbard. Who was wearing such a big Kris ten years ago?

2: The blade itself has a mirror surface finish and a mild Waranga but there is corrosion everywhere and it takes some decades until a blade is corroded like this.

During the last cleaning the "foot" of the scabbard became loose and the resin inside the foot and also the wood from the core seem to be much older than 10 or 25 years.


If I see a artifact which is of unknown style to me, I would never judge the age of the piece by pictures. Especially if they are had been taken by an DSLR and if the artifact is made from gold or silver.

Without any question, this Keris is non traditional but this fact alone is no evidence for a recent production. What shall I say, my collection is full of unusual blades, I'm a kind of magnet for unusual artifacts :)


Regards,
Roland

[Jean]

I do not wish to speculate about the age of this piece from the pics but would like to make the following observations:
. The silver color looks very clear, there is not much dark patina in the cavities which is typical of old silver artefacts. The silver quality seems excellent.
. I don't see much corrosion on the blade but some artificial pitting made by punching on the ganja and the pudak sategal on the sides of the blade around the kinatah.
. The kinatah fully covers the Ganesha figure but around the axe which he holds in one of his left hands there is a trace of gluing or welding which could indicate that the figure was added later.
. From my observations the "studs" on top of the ganja seem to be a recent javanese fashion.
. I have some quite recent silver krisses in which the wood core appears old and dry as this one.

Regards

[kai]

With precious metals any age estimation tends to be very tentative since newly pieces can be made to look old and genuine old pieces can look spanking new if repolished (or well preserved). Thus, we tend to look for a combination of craftsmanship, patina (if any), wear/damages, stylistic and other hints. However, none of these are really reliable since precious metals are fairly easy to be mended with...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I guess we all agree that these 2 hilts are of the same style.

Still, I'd be very cautious of any claims like same maker/workshop/school - successful designs tend to get copied very quickly!

My best guess would be that this non-traditional hilt reflects the European influence during the first half of the 20th century (up to Indonesian independence) in Bali (or, possibly less likely, Lombok). I can't rule out a Madurese origin nor Kota Gede work though.

Regards,
Kai
--
Photo credits: left hand pic cropped from the catalog of the IFICAH exhibition (Weihrauch & al. 2015 (http://ificah.de/wp-content/uploads/pdf/IFICAH_The-Gods-and-The-Forge.pdf)), copyright Günther Heckmann (IFICAH); right hand pic from Roland (post #1).

[kai]

The scabbard is certainly interesting and with 3 examples we have established an pattern...

Note that Roland's example has the tips curled inside while in the 2 examples from the IFICAH exhibition they are pointing outside. Moreover, the carved motifs of all 3 examples are very different!

Any hints for the buntut being a repair for a broken scabbard tip in your piece, Roland?

I'm not convinced that Jean's pendok has any relationship with these 3 discussed here. (Thanks for adding the pic!)

Regards,
Kai
--
Photo credits: left from Roland (post #1); middle & right hand pic cropped from the catalog of the IFICAH exhibition (Weihrauch & al. 2015), copyright Günther Heckmann.

[David]

The pictures were made with a modern DSLR, the Nikon D7000 plus a high quality lens. Every picture has seen different automatic algorithms to increase the picture quality, without any possibility of influence by the user. The D7000 doesnt allow to use the raw-data. What I try to say is that pictures of old artifacts taken with a modern DSLR like this are always looks more modern than they are, always!
While i will not speculate on the age of this piece at the moment i will make a few observations.
Firstly i would like to comment on your statements here Roland because as a professional photographer for 35 years who has worked with modern digital cameras (all Nikon) for almost 15 years your above remarks make absolutely no sense to me. I am familiar with the D7000 and it does indeed allow the use of RAW data. You have photographed a quality item with a fairly high quality camera. You did a technically accurate job and shot in reasonably good light producing sharp and detailed photographs that reveal both the craftsmanship and the wear. But i can think of no reason why the equipment itself would make your keris look newer than it does in person.
But even in hand we must be careful assessing age based solely on the appearance of wear and the over all condition of the piece. We know, for instance, that there are early examples of keris in European collections that have the appearance of being made yesterday. We must look carefully at the type of techniques that were applied to the crafting. Can we detect modern tools used? We must study the style of the embellishments. Does this appear to be an older style of kinatah? Can we recognize if this application and style of gold is distinctly Balinese or Javanese? Can we provide any other examples to support that opinion?
In trying to identify the origins of the blade, Marius thinks it looks Javanese? Is this a pamor that we are likely to see on a Javanese blade? What about the dhapur?
Lastly, could you add the dimensions of the keris to this discussion, both blade and sheath. The blade is obviously much shorter than the sheath. Thanks!

[kai]

Hello Roland,

The blade itself has a mirror surface finish and a mild Waranga but there is corrosion everywhere and it takes some decades until a blade is corroded like this.
In a tropical climate, the corrosion visible here can easily develop in much shorter time!

I'm uneasy with this blade. To me it looks like a larger blade got sacrificed for carving the "picture"/figural gandik as well as the open-worked kinatah on the blade (and raised kinatah on the gonjo); especially the cuts made into the base of the blade to demarcate the kinatah borders does not flow with traditional esthetics IMHO. While Ganesha is done akin Hindu style, the general craftsmanship looks almost Madura/Jawa to me; however, the warangan looks acceptable by Balinese standards - something I've not seen coming from Jawa/Madura mranggi yet...

While Madura as well as East Java received quite a bit of Balinese cultural input by expats, I'm inclined to believe these ensembles may be from Bali, possibly pre-independence attempts to sell keris to affluent European visitors?

Regards,
Kai

[Roland_M]

Hello,

More pictures and the measurements.
I hope that the Keris is still interesting and that I can add more good pics for the discussion.

The piece which I call "foot" was solid in place. It became loose recently, after I tried out a new cleaning method with sweet almond oil, which is very thin. The wooden core looks old. Even the the red wax-resin-mixture (?) doesnt looks new to me. And not to forget it was hermetically closed before I was using the almond oil.
The scabbard is full of small dents and one large one from which I think it could be caused by bending stress, the typically markings.
The piercing in the area above the greneng were made with great effort, not just simple drillings.
The Ganesha-figure is an integral part of the blade, no upgrade.

Really hard to say what it is. One possible old background could be, that it was made for the dutch VOC as a present for proved soldiers.


Regards,
Roland

p.s. all pictures are untouched, I reduced the size only.

[David]

Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age. That doesn't mean that it is not of the contemporary period of keris manufacture. Let's keep in mind that even a keris made in 1977 will have 40 years of age on it. :)
Thanks for the detailed dimensions. Though the blade length is more in keeping with blades from Jawa and Madura i do not believe the length of only 14.5 inches counts it out as Balinese work. I personally own 2 keris which are most certainly Bali/Lombok blades that are 12.5 and 13.5 inches respectively.
Roland, the VOC ceased operation at the very end of the 18th century. While we may be able to continue debating the age of the blade i, for one, would rule out that it comes from that early a period of time.
I don't think there is really any question that we are indeed looking at a keris of some quality so regardless of where the final consensus falls regarding age and origin i believe we can all agree that this is still a keris worthy of discussion. ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

I am finding the comments posted to this thread very interesting, and I do hope that discussion continues, however, I will not be taking part in this discussion because of personal reasons.

I do have one question.

the IFICAH exhibition has been mentioned a couple of times.

I do not have the hardcopy book that went with this exhibition, and regrettably I live a little bit too far away from the place where it was held to permit me to have visited.

My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?

[Richard W]

That is an excellent and exceptional object, old or not so very old, it is magnificent; and in 300 years it will continue to be wonderful, as it is today. Would love it in my collection. I would hang it between my Rajistan silver work and my Balinese items.
Thank you for sharing it with us.

[Roland_M]

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?[/B]


Detlef (sajen) knows some of the founders of the foundation and he probably knows the person, who donated the different Silver-Keris to the foundation.
He will try to find out in the next weeks, who is responsible for the descriptions.

Roland

[Sajen]

.... who is responsible for the descriptions.

For this I don't need some weeks, the catalog descriptions are from Dr. Achim Weihrauch, Dr. Udo Kloubert and Adni Aljunied. ;) :p

[A. G. Maisey]

I did not ask about the descriptions, I asked about the provenance, that is, where did the exhibits come from and when, from whom were they acquired?

Taking only one keris as an example:-

was it brought to Europe by some known person at some known time, or was it acquired from some unknown person at some unknown time?

Was it purchased at auction from an unknown seller?

Was it bought from an estate?

Where was it before it appeared in the exhibition?

Just exactly what is known about this object before it appeared in this exhibition?

Can we date the time and place where it made its first known appearance?

Perhaps some have provenance, perhaps some do not, so let us turn our attention to the two keris that Kai has mentioned. Do these keris have provenance? Can we date the time and place where these keris made their first known appearance?

[kai]

Hello Alan,

the IFICAH exhibition has been mentioned a couple of times.

I do not have the hardcopy book that went with this exhibition
The link in my post #17 gives you access to the full book (PDF file).


were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?
Well, the short answer is probably no - unless you define reliable (and possibly provenance... ;)).

The keris in the exhibition were loans from private collections and there is no provenance stated for the 2 keris shown in this thread; however, most specimens in famous museum collections don't have any reasonable provenance either.

I assume the accompanying descriptions were done by Achim Weihrauch, Adni Aljunied, and Udo Kloubert. Certainly many keris in museum collections have not been studied in depth by experts accepted by any of the senior keris people from the land of Jawa (and if so they probably won't agree with each other either :D!).

Thus, I guess we have to live with what we have. The authors' estimates resonates with our discussion here: "Earlier 20th century, maybe end of 19th century." [As mentioned, I'd tend towards a later date.]

I guess, some pointers from you would not hurt though, Alan!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kai, you have given me precisely the response I expected.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

You were typing faster than me... :)


Perhaps some have provenance, perhaps some do not, so let us turn our attention to the two keris that Kai has mentioned. Do these keris have provenance? Can we date the time and place where these keris made their first known appearance?
I'll try to ask. I guess these 2 keris came from a fairly secretive collector but we may get some additional info. If so, I'll post an update ASAP.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

That would be good Kai.

[Sajen]

.... interesting and with 3 examples we have established an pattern....

Thank you Kai for posting the three examples side by side! :)

I'm not convinced that Jean's pendok has any relationship with these 3 discussed here. (Thanks for adding the pic!)

Agree with you, certainly no relationship with the three other examples.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I guess we all agree that these 2 hilts are of the same style.

Still, I'd be very cautious of any claims like same maker/workshop/school - successful designs tend to get copied very quickly!

My best guess would be that this non-traditional hilt reflects the European influence during the first half of the 20th century (up to Indonesian independence) in Bali (or, possibly less likely, Lombok). I can't rule out a Madurese origin nor Kota Gede work though.


Agree in all points with you! :)

[Sajen]

My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?

Hello Alan,

Kai has already said what I can say but like Kai I will try to get further informations.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Detlef.

[mariusgmioc]

As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Besides, I find strange I haven't seen any hilt in this style anywhere in Indonesia (and I have visited quite a few museums and collections there) and then, they suddenly pop up in European collections.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop? :shrug:

[Roland_M]

As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop? :shrug:

Hello Marius,

thank you for your comment. All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

The silver-work on the scabbard is of very high quality but compared to the scabbard in the added picture it is just average.

If you think, you have a top grade item, there is always a better one :) .


Best wishes,
Roland

p.s. please dont tell anyone from this picture, it is top secret :)

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Marius,

All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

Hello Roland,

I am not so sure ergonomics can be seen as a criteria specific to Indonesia. I have seen European silver handles for walking sticks that are quite ergonomic and some were unmarked. :shrug:

Anyhow, it certainly is the work of a very skilled silversmith.

Regards,

Marius

[David]

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop? :shrug:
Well. personally i have little doubt this silverwork is Balinese. The questions for me are more about timeframe than location. Balinese silversmiths are renown for their skills. They are also quite good at picking up and mimicking the styles. While i do see what you see that seems to show a European influence i would think that just "influence" is as far as that goes.

[mariusgmioc]

Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age.

Hello David,

Well, the blade certainly has "some" age but in my opinion it is less than 20, most likely less than 10 years old.

The pamor is crisp and clear and all the fine details of the carvings are equally crisp and clear.

From all what I know, even a blade kept in ideal conditions, in time will show less contrast of the pamor.

Moreover, the style/theme of decoration is almost identical to the style/theme I saw in several new kerises I have seen in the market in Solo. The pamor also seems the average pamor one can see on many new kerises.

Last but not least, the quality and detail of the engraving doesn't appear to be neither very elaborate, nor very well executed. To me, it looks by no means better than the average kerises I have seen in the market in Solo or at the dealer in Jogja.

All these make me be pretty sure it is a recently made, Javanese blade. But I have very little experience with kerises and I base my judgement mostly on comparisons with the kerises I saw during my recent trip to Indonesia and the few that passed through my hands.

So, if I am wrong in my assertion, I would appreciate if you or anybody on this forum can help and educate me as to what makes the blade of this keris Balinese, older than 10 years or otherwise very special?! :shrug:

Regards,

Marius

[Sajen]

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region? ;) :p

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region? ;) :p

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

Not only that I would expect to see Ganesha, but I have actually seen several new Javanese keris blades with Ganesha and some with Garuda. They were also carved in gold-work very similar to the one of this blade. I suppose they were made for the tourist market.

I have seen the respective blades in the market in Solo and at a dealer in Jogja, and I am pretty sure they were locally made and not "imported" from Bali.

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Also see photos of another un-Islamic antropomorphic Javanese keris and of an un-Islamic Madurese Garuda Keris (that both were in my posession).

Last but not least, I am attaching a photo from the book "The Javanese Kris" by Isaac Groneman, that also illustrates a Ganesha example.

:cool:

PS: I have more examples but they are currently on sale.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade? :shrug:

[Sajen]

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade? :shrug:

Hello Marius,

what you see there is corrosion, when I remember correct was there more corrosion which Roland has removed.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here is a keris from my collection where the singha is a later addition. Sorry for the bad picture, it's just taken and the sun is gone already, so taken with flash, but I think it's to seen.
The keris from Roland is clealy worked like this originally.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons! ;)

Regards,
Detlef


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book. :cool:

[Sajen]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book. :cool:

But two very different animals, one is an antique keris (page 218/19), the other one is modern art.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book. :cool:
Marius, your keris that you have linked to may well have been made in Jawa, but it was not made for a Javanese audience. It is a nicely crafted art piece probably aimed at a Western consumer like yourself. It bares very little resemblance to the examples shown in the Groneman book and serves a completely different intent and purpose.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

[David]

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.
Thanks for your input on this Alan. I am aware of all that you say, but my logic was that collectors within the Indonesian market would be more interested in Kamardikan keris that kept within the "lexicon" of accepted Indonesian iconography. Since this keris steps well outside that with its depiction of winged dragons and elephant-headed serpents i assumed it was intended for a different market of collectors.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the local market in Indonesia is very, very big, and pretty enthusiastic. The people in that market have areas of interest that cover all aspects. The type of keris such as Marius has fits into one niche of that market.

Going back into the early 1980's there was a keris exhibition held in Solo by the ASKI boys, and some of those makers exhibited work that explored the idea of the keris as a canvas for art, some of that art was decidedly outside the keris tradition. Some people were highly critical of it:-

"yes, its art, but is it a keris!!???"

Other people were very impressed by that work, and bought it.

In fact, going back into the 19th century old keris were being used as the canvas for art work.

Some Indonesian collectors like this sort of work, others detest it.The distinction is probably pretty much similar to art lovers in the Western World who like modern art, and those who are hardcore traditionalists.

My personal attitude is that in a comprehensive keris collection we should not discriminate against any particular type of keris. But the key word here is "comprehensive", and not all collections are comprehensive, some people prefer to target a particular class of keris.

As for the lexicon of local iconography, in my experience very, very few people in Indonesia who are involved with the keris have much understanding of this at all.

The dominant culture in Indonesia is Javanese culture. This has always been true and is true now. There is a core of Javanese values, but the peripherals change constantly and always have. Jawa accepts and adapts everything that comes into the society.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you gentlemen for your input, and I am happy I learned new things about my Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga would be keris. :)

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java. And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

So I reiterate my original question:

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?! :confused:

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.
:shrug:

[Roland_M]

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?! :confused:

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.
:shrug:

"why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?"

One reason is the description of the Hollenstedt-exhibition, which shows similar examples. Another is the smooth blade. I can make one or two pictures, to demonstrate clearly, that the surface is very smooth, almost mirror finished.

In my opinion it would be impossible to weld a figure onto a Pamor-blade without destryoing the Pamor. Welding two pieces of steel together, requires a temperature bewteen 1200 and 1300°C. On a finished blade, this will have massive effects. Directly around the figure the pamor is undisturbed.

The overall condition of the blade is just too bad for a 10 year old blade without the tiniest signs of artifical aging.


Regards,
Roland

[Sajen]

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java.

Hello Marius,

this I haven't asked you. I've asked "in this execusion"! Java was in great parts before it get islamicized Hindu, so it's clear that you can see still Ganesha. Garuda is the heraldic symbol of Indonesia so also not a great surprise to see it also in the Muslim areas.

And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).


You give the answer byself, the ones you speak about are fairly recent and they will have a very different execusion. And the one antique keris with Ganesha or better elephant you have shown is very different.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.

Incidentally, sometimes the addition of such a figure could be 100% legitimate. not some attempt to create a forgery in order to raise market value, in these cases the legitimacy related to a change in status or talismanic enhancement.

The way it is done is to weld a piece of pamor material onto the gandhik area of the keris, in older keris, this piece of material is sometimes taken from the front part of the blade. When the weld has been completed, the added piece of pamor is carved and the blade is refinished.

If the joint between the added piece of pamor and the blade is too obvious, the added figure is often covered with kinatah work. Sometimes we can detect and added piece of material because the grain runs in a different direction from the grain in the rest of the blade. However, this is never a certain tell that the material was added after the blade was already old, because sometimes there would be insufficient material at the gandhik prior to the blade being made from the original forging, so the smith would add a bit of extra material here before he began the cold work.

It is not particularly difficult to control weld heat to add a small piece of material to a blade. I have done it with both plain mechanical damascus and nickel damascus, and I was never even close in skill to the Javanese smiths of long ago.

[Roland_M]

Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.


Thank you for your illustrative explanation, as always impressive illuminating for me.

So if the Ganesha was added later to the blade, it was done in a very skillfull way.

Roland